Boundaries

If someone says a boundary is not negotiable, then you have to decide if that is a fact or not. If it is, then you have to decide how important it is to you, and if important enough, what are you going to do about it? What are you prepared to do to set your own boundary? Can you leave (permanently) if it comes to that?

I know you love these questions...

Let me hijack this thread by telling you about my first adult attempt to set a boundary. Something that was not allowed in my childhood: my mother set any boundaries. Period. We were allowed none.

But anyway, the first time I succeeded in setting a boundary, really succeeded, and not in a hostile but in a very firm way... my T did not like it. He essentially told me I was acting in a mentally unhealthy way. I became convinced (once again) that something was very badly wrong with me, since the authority was telling me so. My breakdown eventually resulted. Not all T's have it together. But this may not apply to your own T, whoever you are.

Hijack over.

(((kiya))) Howdy. I don't think that T's NEED to confer and share data with you about everything you discuss with all other professionals you deal with. There has to be some sort of privacy or you can't work with them very well. I'd be all sorts of bugged out.

Usually that kind of thing is only done to the highest degree of privacy and only when the T needs help from another professional on a specific issue. When that happens, they don't give names or identifying data, and the information provided is only limited to the problem at hand. Only other thing I can think of in terms of information sharing is on a consensual basis or an emergency basis thingy. I don't like it when my T talks to others, but in the past he's had to here and there to get things done. I still don't like it though. We limit that as much as possible.

Personally, I don't think anyone knows what is best for me except for me. My T sometimes thinks what's best for me, and says so. I tell him flat out when I think he is wrong (and sometimes he is wrong, and sometimes he is right). I'm in the pilot seat. I can take direction from my co-pilot, but I'm not letting them have the wheel unless I've lost control and about to crash.

It is possible that your T misunderstood what you explained to her about your mom and the vacuuming too.

I disagree. You have to set your own boundaries for your own needs and comfort and others have to do the same. If you are setting your boundary with someone else's needs in mind this isn't a healthy boundary. Setting your boundaries and helping others are 2 different things.

Nodding and smiling will encourage people to approach you.

Meeting your own needs is not being a mean gal. Were you given this message when you were growing up that meeting your needs is bad? I know that this was the message that I got.

They are if that is what is needed at the time. Think toxic person. I would put a wall up against someone like this......

Other people are not responsible for our needs. We are the only people who know ourselves the best. Each person has to stand up for themselves. (This reminds me of the story that I told about my neighbor here the other day. She was putting me in charge in her mind and was waiting for me to ask her her opinion. That's not my job! I can't take care of everyone else. I would need to be a mind reader and would be working my butt off!)

I am the only person who negotiates my boundaries.......

I think because boundaries were healthy in the family and were therefore learned.......

You set your own boundaries???????????

Would you?? I've found firm boundaries work...its if I have weak boundaries that a wall is needed, but I've grown past needing to erect walls..

My boundaries are flexible as needed. If appropriate I will let someone get very close. If someone is harmful I will protect myself from them with the wall to keep them back. It is whatever you need at the time.

Maybe what is so uncomfortable for people with these boundaries is that you expect people to be happy when you draw a boundary against them. People are not happy being told no but how else do you stand up for yourself. You have to be comfortable standing up to people and making them unhappy or you won't be able to set your boundary.

"I was kind of perturbed and asked why I have to change and be assertive when it doesn't come naturally to me. Why can't these people just treat me with respect without me asking it of them?"

I guess... not everyone is respectful. I mean - there are so many abusers in the world. Abuse is certainly not respect. Many people have no idea about appropriate boundaries and walk all over anyone in their path. BUT it is your right to stick up for yourself and protect yourself by setting appropriate boundaries. And perhaps the only way to do that is by learning to become assertive when your boundaries are crossed.

About boundaries and personal space... I believe personal space is definitely a boundary issue. If I were to draw a circle around my self which indicates my personal space, that circle would represent my boundary. I do not like it when people cross that boundary without being invited in. Yes, it is a different level of boundary setting to other more important boundaries, but it is a boundary nonetheless.

I have an issue at work that I need to discuss with someone, re: boundary setting. Haven't worked up the courage to do so yet, but it does need to be done, for my own comfort and sense of safety.

A new person has recently joined my team. She is, in effect, my immediate boss. The issue is... she touches me. In casual conversation she puts her hand on my shoulder or touches my arm. I can't stand it - I find it quite triggering.

Until now I have only tried to communicate my discomfort with it to her non-verbally. When she reaches out to touch me I step away (usually she steps towards me so I am within reach again, and I in turn keep backing away from her). Sometimes I move so there is a physical barrier between us, and sometimes I busy myself with other work while we chat so that I am always moving out of her reach.

But, she isn't reading my non-verbal cues. She always keeps moving towards me, no matter how much I step away / turn away from her / put physical barriers between us. And she keeps on touching me.

I realise that she is not deliberately trampling on my boundaries. She comes from a different cultural background from me, where touch is normal and appropriate and a natural part of communication. In her culture, touching during conversation is respectful. So... if I want my personal space - my boundary - respected, I am going to have to explicitly tell her that I do not like to be touched and I don't want her to do it.

I know it will probably offend her at some level. It may feel like a personal rejection to her. but I *need* to find the courage to discuss it with her, because I do not want to feel triggered and afraid throughout my working day, and it is my own responsibility to take care of that need. I think I am nearly there... nearly able to initiate that conversation with her. Not quite, but nearly.

I think, in learning to set our boundaries with others, starting small helps. When you haven't learned how to maintain healthy boundaries growing up, starting small and working up the courage to work with the bigger issues takes time and practice. Learning about the steps of assertive communication is helpful.

It is utterly worth it though. Being able to stick up for your own needs after years of abuse and betrayal is so empowering! I am still working on the small stuff - no courage for the big stuff here yet - but I am getting there.

Does your T know you don't like her talking to your other professionals?

Can you negotiate some boundaries around that, even if you can't prevent her completely from talking to your professionals? Such as, everything in your session will be confidential unless she specifically asks your permission to tell a specific thing from your session to your other professionals? Or a bit looser--she has permission to tell everything from your session unless you ask her not to tell specific things? So if there are very sensitive things you don't want shared, get her to agree to confidentiality on those. That is the agreement I have with my T. I tried to go for the first one, where he had to ask my permission to share specific things with the rest of my legal team, but he couldn't agree. But he will give confidentiality for specific things I request. Also, for talking to other medical professionals, he has to have me sign a release. We have done that a couple of times so he could talk to my daughter's therapist. But if I didn't sign a release with the other professional's name on it, he could NOT speak to them. So if you have signed such releases, could you tell your T you have changed your mind? It just seems like there is some negotiation you could do around this boundary.

Also, have you told your other professionals how you don't like this? Maybe some of them would be more on your side about this than your T and could help you get some boundaries in place.

I am in a clinic where I see like 6 ppl, and the method of the clinic is to have all clinicians work together. Sooooooo the more ppl i see, the more ppl there are to discuss me. *sigh*

yeah, i think so ....

yep *sigh*

nope *sigh*

i did try that - i emailed that exact thing - there was no response.
i was all excited that i had thought of that (a couple of weeks ago)... but it seems to be a no. so i am withholding info from her at this point.

they all work at the same clinic - so they all speak openly. If i have a panic attack in group, they go find t. if i have a flashback in with the osteopath - they go tell t. if i can't sleep, md tells t to work with me on this. Each time i go in, i find out what each one has talked to t about.

If she didn't answer your email, it doesn't necessarily mean "no." I hope you won't let her off the hook on this and will bring up your email when you see her. Could you say something like, "what did you think of my idea? It will help me feel safer so I can be honest with you but also allow you to share what is most important with my other doctors." Make her say "no" to your face if that is what she means. Maybe she didn't get the email. You never know.

That's very infantilizing. They're treating you like a child. They don't trust you enough to tell your own needs to your clinicians. If you have a flashback that is important for T to know about, they should trust you to tell her instead of relying on the osteopath go tattling on you. I think that this system would be very hard to be a part of for many people, Kiya.

I also think that you should tell your T that because of this system, you are having to withhold information from her. That creates a wall and is not helpful in therapy. I'm sorry you have to have therapy under these conditions.

I know you like your T, but perhaps the other clinicians in the group are not that essential for you. Could they be replaced by people providing equivalent services outside of your T's practice group? So you could go to an osteopath outside of this clinic, and that way the osteopath could not tattle on you? And you would still have all the services you need.

I had the same thing - she didnt take up the non-verbal queues so in the end I had to say "it's nothing against you but i don't like to be touched " ms no personal boundaries then said "Why' and I said it's personal - that was the end of that - she occassionally goes to touch me thenI see her draw back - i dont want to make her feel uncomfortable but its better than me having a flashback - P7

I guess for me I was taught that you put the needs of others first , that you were selfish if you wanted anything for yourself - also when your needs are not met as a child i think that teaches you that (me) your needs are not worthwhile, that you are not worthwhile,

its' a bit like what i was told to do on a bus - my mum said you stand up for someone older or younger than you - great! unless someone the exact same age as me gets on I stand up!!! the same with needs and boundaries - I was taught that other peoples were far more important than mine - if there was a place behind last I would be there waiting to let someone else take my place LOL

[quote=Kiya;890857]
i emailed that exact thing - there was no response.
i was all excited that i had thought of that (a couple of weeks ago)... but it seems to be a no. so i am withholding info from her at this point.

(end quote)

I agree with sunrise, mention the email - see what your T says - explain that you feel you have to hold stuff back because of this - see what happens - P7

phoenix...sunrise....

i dunno what to do. my beloved MD moved to this clinic. she's the one who got me to see T. She also got me to see the osteopath, who got me to see the acupuncturist.... and MD and T got me to see the social worker there and into coping skills group. my whole friggin life is there now. AND i have no ins so they reduce all the fees for me because they are a low income clinic (which i need).

I'm sorry, Kiya. I didn't mean to upset you. Of course you need to go to a place that you can afford. Maybe ask yourself if all those professionals are necessary. If not, maybe you can eliminate some of them and reduce some sources of the unwelcome cross-talk. I thought Osteopaths and MDs provided much of the same services. Could you drop osteopath and just use MD? Could you drop acupuncturist? Maybe your social worker could help. She might know of low cost services outside of the clinic, such as a coping skills group or another social worker. Maybe you should share the problem with her and see what she suggests. If she manages your case, she may have some leverage there to help improve things for you. I'm just throwing out ideas. I guess it really all depends on how much the professional cross-talk bothers you. Maybe you could call a meeting of all your professionals. Get them all together, tell them the problem, and ask them to brainstorm ideas on how to solve the problem. Sometimes 5 heads are better than 1. Maybe they would come up with something you haven't thought of. If it's too hard for you to call a meeting, maybe social worker could organize it for you. Another idea would be to make just one change: a new T outside of the clinic. It seems like a lot of the information flow that bothers you is from the other professionals to your T. If you move to a T outside the clinic, you could keep all the other professionals and they wouldn't be allowed to talk with the outside therapist unless you signed a release. I know you like your T, so that's probably out of the question, but it would cut down on the unwanted information flow.

Sounds like the clinic has this policy in order to enhance care for the client. Open communication between the professionals sounds like a good thing. I know Kiya that you have explained why this triggers you because of your family background. Fighting the system sounds exhausting. When your family was doing this to you it was dysfunctional and not helpful. The clinic is doing this to be helpful. Sounds like a lot of energy and time is being spent to fight this. Why not just work on this trigger and feeling safe with this?