Boundaries

Thou hast hit upon it. it is just hard. leaves me feeling small and angry

(((((((((((((((sunrise))))))))))))))) ty. it's ok. it seems to beneficial to simply analyze the situation and see why it is so upsetting to me. this thread has helped me get clear on this. Now it is snowing and i don't know that I'll get to see t tomorrow.

I think the problem with being confused about boundaries can happen because we're confused about what's "allowed". We think other people are allowed to state what they like/don't like but we're not? If someone says, "I don't like people standing too near to me" we respect that but we wouldn't think of saying something like that ourselves because we're afraid people would think us strange or selfish or. . .

Boundaries are about telling other people about ourselves! But, if we don't admit to ourselves how we feel or don't "like" how we feel (don't like that person, don't trust that person, etc.) then we break down at the point where we should be communicating. My #1 saying for many years has been "I'm the right size, it's the pants that don't fit!" What you feel is what you feel and is 100% correct for you! You are allowed to not like someone else to stand too close even if you love to have a different someone closer! Your feelings are not a democracy!

But boundaries are just stating (and then enforcing) your feelings! "Go away, please, or I will" is a boundary! If it's your space, either emotionally or literally, you can push the other person away literally. It's only a degree difference question between someone attacking you with a knife and someone attacking you verbally! Your JOB is to protect yourself from their attack. Their job is to protect themselves and they are "allowed" to do it however they wish. So, someone saying, "I hate you, go away" is not being "rude" or "weird" or anything, they're saying, "YOU are over my boundary at this very moment, go away at this very moment". The "correct" response is not arguing but going away.

If you're underage, Kiya, your mother's boundary crossing is abuse, plain and simple. If you can't go away because you are a minor child, the adult needs to pay more attention. I'm not saying an adult cannot get angry and express how they feel, that is not abuse, that is everyone's right; to let others they are in relation with know how they feel in that relationship but being "in your face" literally, is a power thing and boundary crossing.

However, because other people cross our boundaries does not give us leave to cross theirs/other's. And if one is in an unequal relationship and there's boundary crossing; one merely figures out how to "get away" when one can.

I had a company vice president who verbally humiliated me in front of the whole office. Took me quite awhile to get over my hurt and pain enough to realize I was angry and to "plot" what to say and do next time he did that (tell him in no uncertain terms that if he did it again I'd quit ~ boundary crossings have to have consequences communicated or the person crossing won't take you seriously) and figure out a way to try to block his opportunity to do so again (I had volunteered to help him so figured out I would not try to help him anymore, would only have contact when approached by him).

I don't think boundaries are a one-time clear thing! They are different for EVERY relationship? I might like you or T or whomever to sit near but want my smelly coworker to sit further away? :-)

Our #1 job is to take care of ourselves so "rude" doesn't really matter. There are certainly tactful and more pleasant ways to get across one's needs than "Get away from me!" LOL but often some people are a bit thick-headed and need that statement! If you back up a step and they "follow" you have to say something! "Hey, can you please not stand so close, I'm far sighted and can't see you well when you're that close" ;-) and if they insist, then you excuse yourself and leave politely or put your hand on their chest and give a little backward shove to remind them (if you know them well enough) etc.

One shouldn't automatically decide another person is "teasing" with boundaries but ask a few times to make sure. "Did you really want me to leave now, Mom?" shows respect and care for the other person as well as shows you meant no harm if you did accidentally cross their boundaries; because, how are you supposed to know if you have crossed another person's boundaries if they don't tell you? AND, how is another person supposed to know if you don't tell them!

I find that to be an impossible statement. Every single day (unless you are a hermit) is determined by interactions-- I often think of relationships and interactions as a large ping-pong game-- people are constantly bouncing off each other based on the nature of their interactions.

I think it would be difficult to believe that we are completely in control of almost anything at all. How can your control of boundaries not be influenced by the nature of the interactions you have?

I think if you have little boundaries growing up, you can go to one of two extremes-- no boundaries as an adult or major boundaries (sometimes even both) to compensate for the lack when growing up.

There was a lack of boundaries in my house. When I was about 16 my mom became addicted to the internet. Unfortunately, the computer was in my room. She stayed in my room all the time, and I had to go to sleep with her, five feet away from me, typing away. Sometimes she would be in there when I had friends over. I would have to fight her for my computer when I had schoolwork to type.

My mom would bug me to find out what I talked about in therapy. Since she was paying at the time, she would sometimes threaten to take away therapy if I didn't tell her what happened.

This caused me to develop both (extreme) strong and (extreme) weak boundaries as an adult. Depends who I am dealing with. In therapy, I have very strong boundaries. Part of that comes from being a therapist. so I was very cognizant (overly) to make sure I wasn't crossing any boundary-- I thought one phone call was crossing a boundary. I thought that expressing erotic feelings was crossing a boundary, even though obviously there was no behaviors-- just feelings.

When it comes to other stuff (mostly impulse related stuff) I don't have good boundaries-- not with myself. Before I was married, I had terrible boundaries with men but I think most of that stuff comes from trying to fill an emptiness. I still have loose boundaries with men, when it comes to flirting and stuff (when I see it's coming back to me). Part of that is because I have a very flirtatious personality, but I know that it comes out more than it should because of that lack of boundaries.

Wow - so much stuff in here... I don't even know where to start... so i parsed everything up and starred them.... and BOLDED things.... having a lot of huh! moments... learnings... bare with me....

Thanks - lots of good stuff.... lots of thinking for me....

Yep - I think these statements are really accurate for me also... I find I am like a chamelion. It depends who I am dealing with, what the "hidden rules of power" are for that person... where I am.... Like you said, with myself (especially right now) i seem to have none or few. Especially with this dang medical diet. I am repelling sooooooooooooooo badly. The more i attempt to enforce it, the more i rebel and it is really taking its toll. Perhaps it also has to do with respect. If I do not respect my self i sure can't respect my needs as an individual.... I will have to think on that one more. thanks pink.
(and that part about your mom threatening to take t away... grrrrrrr! Reminds me of home).

There are a lot of things that I am not in control of, other people and their boundaries are one of them. I am in complete control of myself though. If someone will not respect my boundaries and my requests to do so I will leave........

This is what I did. I was a follower with zero boundaries until I became a teenager and my older cousin helped empower me a bit then I jumped to the opposite extreme and wouldn't let anyone in. Four therapists and 30 years later my boundaries can go from allowing a lot of closeness to blocking a person out if needed. Rarely do I need the wall to go up for a total block. I can't even remember when this was last needed.

Of course you adjust your boundaries according to your environment. When I am alone I don't need boundaries. When I interact, however, I am the one who is in control of my boundary adjustments in reaction to my environment.

Because you are remembering the past and how you feel with your family (trigger)? Can you seperate these 2 things in your mind? One is a therapeutic clinic and the other is a dysfunctional family.

An alternative take on clinicians talking to one another (that they are probably aiming for) is `continuity of care' and `holistic / integrated treatment'.

That being said, I don't like it when my clinician's talk to each other about me, either.

But... Why don't I like it when my clinician's talk to each other about me? For me... It is because I think they are more likely to work each other up into a state of more profound misunderstanding than if they involved me in that process. It is because I think... That they are likely to be *****ing about me :-(

Can you figure out what it is about it that you don't like? It might be that... There can be some negotiating about that such that you feel better...

I think that different people use the term 'boundaries' in different ways and sometimes I think that the term is in danger of being a catch-phrase and that 'boundary issues' in particular tends to become almost meaninglesness...

That being said here is one way I had 'boundaries' described to me...

A cell membrane is a boundary between the inside of the cell (its self) and the outside of the cell. The cell needs the membrane in order to maintain its integrity as a distinct organism. The cell also needs to take in and expell from its environment or it will die, however. So there are pores in the cell and some things are given access and others are not. And some things need to work a little to get it.

A tree is seperate from and yet connected to its environment. The roots need to take in water and nutrients, the leaves need to take in light. But the tree isn't just continuous with the environment, it has a distinct integrity (existence) of its own.

Boundary issues are things that affect the integrity of ourself or another. But... Affect the integrity how? Well... Physical and sexual abuse are typically considered to be major boundary violations. How come? Because typically the person is like 'I really really really really really don't want you to do that to me' and the other person disregards their desires for their own. If your mother had have been serious about feeling very strongly about your leaving her room (because she needed her personal space back) then disregarding that desire would have been a boundary violation.

We kinda bump around doing the best we can with this, I think. Nobdoy has this down pat. So hard to know what to do when genuine interests conflict... That is the trouble really. In interpersonal relations all parties have their own interests and needs and desires and weighing those to come to the best decision for all is about the hardest thing in the world. I think that boundary violations... Are when one person doesn't get their needs or preferences weighted accordingly...

"I was kind of perturbed and asked why I have to change and be assertive when it doesn't come naturally to me. Why can't these people just treat me with respect without me asking it of them?"

Yes. I had that for so long. So very long... I've since learned that most people in this world simply aren't very sensitive to the feelings of others. They don't notice. I think that people who have been hurt have this special sensitivity to other people (at times) such that they can pick up on things that others fail to notice... So... My father used to ask me to house sit for him and I would express reluctance... And he would just power on with 'so we will come and get you and take you to the supermarket'... and basically just disregard my preference not to do it for his own interests. And I... Used to feel walked over and like my preferences didn't matter :-( And the most upsetting thing of all to me was that he knew I didn't want to do it but he just pushed on with asserting his preference nevertheless.

I talked to him about it one day and said that really I would prefer not to do it. It was hard for me to get to university from where he lived and that was the main virtue of my living on campus. That my friends wouldn't come visit me where he lived because it was too far away but all my friends were there on campus. He was surprised that those were issues that were important to me and that those issues made it an unattractive option. He thought that he was positively doing me a favor because I'd get a big house to myself and a huge tv etc etc etc. And... I do think that there was a little bit of his having difficulty finding someone else who was appropriate. But know what? In saying that I had a strong preference not to do it - but that I would if they really were stuck... That was a kind of fairly flexible way of setting boundaries. Basically 'no'... Unless... You really need me to do it. I'd really prefer not but I do understand that someone needs to feed and hang with the cat... But you need to understand that it is asking a lot of me.

So... My integrity maintained and I felt okay about things and not walked over or used or disregarded or taken advantage of or disrespected (which he didn't really mean to do - but you do have to be clear with people when their interests conflict with your own they do tend to selectively attend to things... They do indeed...).

Sometimes... People simply can't read our minds / emotions the way that sometimes... We (quite genuinely - from their POV) can...

when i hear that one has talked to another, i feel my stomach drop to my feet like it were in "The Tower of Terror" at Disneyland. Insta-drop of 250 feet. I dislike that feeling an incredible amount - there's a reason i've never gone on that ride...

Do you understand what is going through your mind/what your feelings are when you have this reaction?

yeah. why do you have that reaction do you think? what are you afraid of?

figuring it out (figuring out what it is that you feel and why) is the first step towards being able to communicate that (and so negotiate with people about how you can feel better..)

Sannah, Kim - no, i don't. I have no idea. Maybe it is like a phobia - irrational.

Though there is controversy over the rationality / a-rationality / irrationality of phobias...

Do you have any thoughts spring to mind? how do you envisage their conversations going when they are talking about you? Are they talking kindly or not? Are they understanding where you are coming from or not? Would you feel better if you could be a fly on the wall or not?

Did your parents used to talk about you when you weren't around but you found out later? How about other people in your life? Teachers?

It can be hard to figure out what is going on sometimes...

Hang in there.

kim_johnson:
how do you envisage their conversations going when they are talking about you?
I know they see each other in the halls when passing and ask specific questions; "How do I help kiya get through her panic attacks?" "How can I work with her when she cannot be touched?" "Can you please work with Kiya about sleeping better?"

Are they talking kindly or not? Yes
Are they understanding where you are coming from or not? ummm i guess yeah...
Would you feel better if you could be a fly on the wall or not? Absolutely because then I would know in real time and not find out about it later "Kiya I talked to Dr_______ today about your panic attack, can you tell me more?" *Stomach hits the ground at 75 MPH*

Did your parents used to talk about you when you weren't around but you found out later? yes - see below
How about other people in your life? yes -see below
Teachers? see below

This is copied in from one of my other posts (a refresher for some *sigh*) a letter I sent to T explaining why i HATE having her and others talk about me.

"Still I don't think I have adequately explained how big an issue it is to me to have others discuss me - I'm trying....
-that is one of the first things i was taught as a kid - don't talk about others if they are not present.
-mom always told dad everything, then i usually got severly spanked and grounded for it.
-dad always told mom and grandma everything and had them police me on my groundings - grandma took it upon herself to be my personal Gestapo
-dad always used family, friends, relatives, neighbors, church goers, boy friends, dr's and other people in the community to get info about me and use it against me.
-dad called my teachers all the way from grade school through high school, even got me in trouble several times with my teachers for it, even called camps i was at, called a traveling group i was in for a year (came in 2nd of "Parents who call the most" in a cast of 150 students), was even going to call my college professors -so i refused to give him any names!!!!
- dad ALWAYS knew what I was going to do or try to do before I could do it - often even before I thought of it, or the fricking day i thought of it, even when i didn't live in the same god-dammed State.
-dad would then take on whatever i did and make it his own or an "us thing" until i gave it up.
-dad was my "planner" and made my schedule, my life, my apnts, told me who to see, where and when to go.
-dad made himself my vocal coach, stage coach, life coach... said he was going to be my manager in my performance life on the road.
-now mom, i can't go anywhere without telling her where i am going, when i will be back, who it will be with, and what i will be doing. i have to call if i am not back when i say i will be (i'm 31!!).
-if mom forgets where i have gone (for the umpteenth time) she will call to find out if i am still alive or dead on the side of the road somewhere. now days, when i come home and she says "Is that you?" I say "NO!" "Are you alive?" (when calling)... "nope, Jim, I'm dead".
-Dad even found the Girl Scout camp that i worked at online (that's not supposed to be online for safety reasons) and told me he was coming to visit me. He didn't ask - he just stated. Thankfully, he didn't come. Which is good because I told the Camp Dir. to not let him in if he did. Heh. But he was lawless - he was a law unto himself. "

Kiya could it just be a trigger that is sending you back to how you felt with your family? When it happens tell yourself that this clinic professional interaction is not your family and believe it. Tell your T this and have her help you seperate the two, plus she can help you to empower yourself with your family.

This makes sense to me. There are things in my interaction with T that are similar to interactions I have had in the past....but in this case they are HEALTHY and SAFE and HAVE MY BEST INTEREST IN MIND...in the past it was just the opposite.

Separating those two things is a large part of the work of my therapy.

It's the "believe it" that doesn't work. I wish it did just like that.

Yes, TOTALLY! If only it could be an "instant" fix.

But - it is something that can be worked on over time

Exactly, it isn't instant but if you keep focusing on it and telling yourself that these are 2 different situations you will believe it eventually. I did something similar to this and my reaction got less and less until it disappeared. After about number 10 it was pretty much gone but could still pop up a little every now and then. Now it is basically gone. You just have to keep at it.

Sannah, Earthmama, Pachy...
i guess i can try it.
right now i am really bummed out. I called the clinic today to see about trying to fit me in with t (since i missed mine due to weather) and it gave wed.'s closed message ... this is thurs. so i called back... same thing.
tonight i called again just incase and they answered... they've been open all day, but forgot to change the message =( i missed yoga today thinking they were closed and perhaps a chance to see t.
then they said that not only does she not have an opening tomorrow, but not one next week either. @_@ My apnt was wed (the 24th) at 7pm. !!!! I've been trying to get t to change this since thanksgiving!!!!! > That night the office closes at noon and ... and... and i am FREAKING OUT. The receptionist said she'd tell t tonight (that's what they said a month ago) and i should get a call. *sniff*
I may try to get to the community dinner tonight there. t will be there. but i don't know that i can conceal my emotions of anger and upset-ness.

T FINALLY called and set a time with me tomorrow evening - weather permitting. I also went to the community dinner tonight (t is often there and leads this gathering) and several things happened. 1. i was late and sadly very obvious *sigh*. 2. we had to go around and say who our support will be during the holidays **sigh**. 3. i realized that i have no one IRL and thought about saying "My online group" but i started choking up and when my turn came i said "I'm still working on that". 4. Soon after that, I went and hid to go get a grip!! 5. T was sitting only 2 chairs away from me at the table, I was trying hard to ignore her. Then trying hard to look like nothing was wrong... soon reverting back to ignoring her. 6. After dinner T came and sat across from me and we connected . she asked how I was - "not so hot" and we talked a bit. We also got interrupted and my mind was screaming to the ppl "GO AWAY! Can't you see my T is talking to ME??!?!?!" *ahem* then we talked more and she assured me that I would not lose out next week due to my apnt being on Christmas eve =) . 7. was talking with another clinician when T walked in to get the keys - and patted me on the back several times This made up for my earlier encounters with the front desk telling me there were no times this week or next week for me. *whew*!!!
Now, the weather had just BETTER let me get there tomorrow!!! I already missed once from that.
=) kiya