[Taonuviel]

but what did i expect? pretty much this. i'm self aware enough to recognize whether there's an answer to my problems... and there isn't. i can't communicate right, i'm too abstract, too confused/ing. it's how my brain works, i can't verbalize coherently enough... there's no fixing it.

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by Taonuviel

but what did i expect? pretty much this. i'm self aware enough to recognize whether there's an answer to my problems... and there isn't. i can't communicate right, i'm too abstract, too confused/ing. it's how my brain works, i can't verbalize coherently enough... there's no fixing it.

Everything takes practice. Things aren't black and white. Things that are learned can be unlearned, and you can always learn new ways of things. People are born with their genes but the interact with the environment and as such genetics alone does not indicate your future. The past doesn't dictate your present/future either.

Since you aren't being specific, I can't really address the situation your in very well, but please know that there is always HOPE. I always say that when a brick wall is put in your face, you should look for ways around, over, and under the wall. Practice ways of being specific versus abstract with your therapist. It might take time, but it will work out if you give it a good faith effort.

[Taonuviel]

i think my brain is actually wired this way... i don't think it's learned.

i think abstractly. i can't seem to verbalize these thoughts, only basic thoughts. i can write anything, very strong at written expression. but when i speak i make little sense, my ideas run together, i can't express what i need to. it's not a matter of being prepared or well thought-out.

i manage to explain when talking with my t. he knows how to listen and help me express what i need to. it just takes a while. but i don't have that kind of a setting anywhere else. and i can't get anywhere like this.

there isn't hope. there aren't any answers.

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by Taonuviel

i think my brain is actually wired this way... i don't think it's learned.

i think abstractly. i can't seem to verbalize these thoughts, only basic thoughts. i can write anything, very strong at written expression. but when i speak i make little sense, my ideas run together, i can't express what i need to. it's not a matter of being prepared or well thought-out.

i manage to explain when talking with my t. he knows how to listen and help me express what i need to. it just takes a while. but i don't have that kind of a setting anywhere else. and i can't get anywhere like this.

there isn't hope. there aren't any answers.

Why isn't there hope? Your communicating with me now. I think you are capable of many things and you shouldn't count yourself out.

[pegasus]

(((((((( Taonuviel ))))))))

Hello there, I think we have discussed therapy in the depression forum before. Am I right in thinking that therapy with this T has only just started? It would be worth asking your T what therapies he usually does so that you have an idea of what type of therapy you are doing.

With T saying that he doesn't have any ideas it might be that he is trying to put the ball in your court and see if you are really ready to do the work. If you have had depression a long time it may take a long time in therapy. It's not useless and there is hope. I know it is possible to get to that place of feeling ok. Don't give up my friend.

[Taonuviel]

there's no hope because i cannot get anywhere in life without being able to communicate verbally. i can't get through a job interview, or work in any area that requires verbal communication, or develop relationships offline. it's essential...

yes, i've seen him about 2 months... and i can probably only see him another 3 months, then nothing. we talk, just working on whatever comes up for that session. just talk therapy i guess.

he was genuinely trying to think of some way i could work on this. there just aren't any.

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by Taonuviel

there's no hope because i cannot get anywhere in life without being able to communicate verbally. i can't get through a job interview, or work in any area that requires verbal communication, or develop relationships offline. it's essential...

yes, i've seen him about 2 months... and i can probably only see him another 3 months, then nothing. we talk, just working on whatever comes up for that session. just talk therapy i guess.

he was genuinely trying to think of some way i could work on this. there just aren't any.

You've only seen him two months? Well things don't work overnight. You are putting a lot of pressure on yourself I think, which makes anxiety (which is what this sounds like) worse.

Anxiety and depression both make thinking foggy. I had anxiety so bad I couldn't think or express myself clearly.

What do you think the problem is?
What are your diagnosis (if you want to share them only).

[Taonuviel]

i have to get the most out of this as i can in as little time as possible, since i have so little available. what's supposed to work, anyway? what more is there to do than try to work on whatever's going on?

my thinking is foggy sometimes, but that's not what i'm talking about. my thoughts can be clear, make total sense to me but i cannot express them verbally.

i think the problem is something physically not working/present in my brain, some kind of connection between thought processing and verbalization, and another missing connection in interpreting interpersonal conduct/non-verbal messages and conversation dynamics. some of this might be learned, but i really think some of it is just missing. i watch and try enough in these areas to make some improvement but there isn't any, it's frustrating and makes no sense.

i'm diagnosed with major depression and bpd.

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by Taonuviel

i have to get the most out of this as i can in as little time as possible, since i have so little available. what's supposed to work, anyway? what more is there to do than try to work on whatever's going on?

my thinking is foggy sometimes, but that's not what i'm talking about. my thoughts can be clear, make total sense to me but i cannot express them verbally.

i think the problem is something physically not working/present in my brain, some kind of connection between thought processing and verbalization, and another missing connection in interpreting interpersonal conduct/non-verbal messages and conversation dynamics. some of this might be learned, but i really think some of it is just missing. i watch and try enough in these areas to make some improvement but there isn't any, it's frustrating and makes no sense.

i'm diagnosed with major depression and bpd.

I would suggest neuropsychological testing to rule out other cognitive disorders, like a learning disorder, expressive disorder, ADHD, etc. Maybe your T does not think this is necessary. If things are as you say they are, then it is possible you are misinterpreting your T as well.

Have you told your T exactly what you told us here?
It's hard to believe a T would literally not know what to do, don't you think?

If you have a problem with socializing and/or communicating because you can't understand/read another person's verbal cues and body language, then you have to learn how to do so. Ideally, your T would be the one to help you with this. He would first have to identify what your problem areas are.

Problems with self expression (not comprehension per se) are common when you are dealing with complex and deeply disturbing emotions. I think you are being to difficult with yourself and expecting things to change very quickly without really identifying the problems. Problems take understanding in order to solve them.

Please be specific---what is your exact concern? That no one understands your pain, your emotions, etc., OR that no one understands the things you say because you are indirect or otherwise unclear toward them? Do you speak in generalities all the time versus specifically identifying your problem areas? You must define the problem in order to fix it.

I also think it is helpful to be proactive about it, lest you get into the victim mode and sabotage yourself (I'm not saying you are doing that here, just an FYI so that you don't head that way).

Why does your appointments with your T end in three months?

[I_WMD]

Tao ? ,,,, Just a thought .

Did ya ever take drama class in High School ? oooooooooor ,,, Do you understand the concept of role playing when preparing for public speaking things ...
from what you have written here ,, as this thread goes ,,, Public speaking ATM ,, I would guess ,, is not your forte .

But if your catching my drift ? >>>. There are classes available that can learn ya few tricks to expressing .

WMD.

[Taonuviel]

i don't have insurance to pay for testing.

i've expressed these to some degree - it hasn't been very long and i don't communicate very quickly. it was on the topic of being unable to communicate in the context of upcoming job interviews that he said he really didn't have any ideas on how i could work on that after we had talked out average preparation possibilities.
i really think there is no answer, so him not knowing what to do makes perfect sense...

the most i can do is learn to mimick. and that's really obvious as fake.

actually, it almost seems easier to talk about emotions, and i know what the problems are, aside from anything undiagnosed.

i think abstractly. i see concepts as a clump, a conglomeration of parts that fit together as a whole, which i feel i totally understand, but cannot describe verbally. i could type it out with some time; as i'm seeing it in words i can see what i've said and where i'm going, and modify if necessary, and take my time in expressing it.
it doesn't help that my memory is so dysfunctional that i lose ideas as i'm trying to verbalize them.

i'm always proactive... though i have no confidence i'll get anywhere. when i've tried everything i can find while believing i'd find something to work and after a decade of doing everything right have no progress i naturally stop believing/hoping...

i see him through uni. i'm supposed to graduate in april, possibly having incompletes into the summer, which might prolong when i can see him for another month but may not since i won't have any classes registered in that term. after that i won't be able to see anyone since i have no insurance.

[Simcha]

If you are classified as a dependent student (most college students under 25) then you are legally able to be covered on your parents insurance.

Do your parents have insurance?

Secondly, when it comes to job interviews, nothing you said about abstract thought should ever even come into the discussion.
You need to act interested (hopefully in whatever job you apply for you will be interested in), answer their questions, and sell your skills and personality. You can easily read about this on the internet.

Mimicking is when you imitate exactly what the other person says. If you do that you will not get the job. You can try to pace yourself, but if you raise your arm when the interviewer raises his arm, you'll not present very well.

I think what seems to be at hand is not that you are unable to communicate--you are doing that quite well here, and it isn't all that abstract; it is more that you are lacking in self-confidence and you are putting yourself down. There are no merits to putting yourself down as you are. You need to build your self confidence by focusing on what you do well, and by reducing what you don't do well.

For a job interview, you need to research interviewing skills. You need to know how to dress and how to speak so that you appear confident. My university offers all of these job hunting/interviewing things for free.
I never did like university counselors. The private sector is almost always better but you have to deal with what you have to deal with unless you get on your parents insurance, or borrow some money from them (unless you work a job).

Yahoo Interviewing Techniques and Tips

Do you work anywhere right now?

Originally Posted by Taonuviel

i don't have insurance to pay for testing.

i've expressed these to some degree - it hasn't been very long and i don't communicate very quickly. it was on the topic of being unable to communicate in the context of upcoming job interviews that he said he really didn't have any ideas on how i could work on that after we had talked out average preparation possibilities.
i really think there is no answer, so him not knowing what to do makes perfect sense...

the most i can do is learn to mimick. and that's really obvious as fake.

actually, it almost seems easier to talk about emotions, and i know what the problems are, aside from anything undiagnosed.

i think abstractly. i see concepts as a clump, a conglomeration of parts that fit together as a whole, which i feel i totally understand, but cannot describe verbally. i could type it out with some time; as i'm seeing it in words i can see what i've said and where i'm going, and modify if necessary, and take my time in expressing it.
it doesn't help that my memory is so dysfunctional that i lose ideas as i'm trying to verbalize them.

i'm always proactive... though i have no confidence i'll get anywhere. when i've tried everything i can find while believing i'd find something to work and after a decade of doing everything right have no progress i naturally stop believing/hoping...

i see him through uni. i'm supposed to graduate in april, possibly having incompletes into the summer, which might prolong when i can see him for another month but may not since i won't have any classes registered in that term. after that i won't be able to see anyone since i have no insurance.

[Taonuviel]

no, i lost coverage with them when i turned 21.

interested, yes, but that's often hard for me to show to start with. answering their questions is where the problem i'm talking about comes in... "how would you handle such and such a situation?" i know how i would, it's basically intuitive, but i can't get it into words. or worse; "when have you faced a situation like this and how did you handle it?" i think i might have faced that before, but even if i could get it into words i can't remember how it went because my memory is fried. and my personality... i'm very nice and open-minded and lots of great qualities that don't show through my affect or my lack of interpersonal skills...

yes, i communicate fine in writing - that's easy, i see what i'm saying, there's no mechanics of conversation involved, time really isn't limited, i don't have to try to maintain any kind of appearance, i can think it out, reread it, change it, use punctuation instead of intonation and facial expression... it's so very different.

my university has good departments, my t is very experienced and qualified, and the career sevices department seems to be good too; i'll be getting their help to write my resume and do a filmed practice interview. but the thing is, i already know how i appear; i just don't know how to change it... when i try modifying how i express myself verbally/bodily/facially i'm just inauthentic

i have as-needed work done from home, earning under $100/mo, if there's work at all.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Taonuviel

i think abstractly.

That is a sign of intelligence. But you say it almost as if it is not desirable. It is! Many people never learn to think abstractly, an ability that begins to develop about age 10-12. Some kids are well into their teens and not able to think abstractly at all. It sounds to me as if you are highly intelligent but seeing the worst in your gifts.

This is a basic suggestion and probably you have tried it, but have you tried practicing for the job interviews? Or just plain practicing having conversations? If you are expressing yourself in a confusing way, immediate feedback from the person might be a start toward helping you detect what is confusing to them and reword what you say. Just keep practicing until you get it right. It seems like your therapist would be a great person to do this with.

Just an idea....

[Taonuviel]

this is the negative side of my abstract thinking. i appreciate my intelligence and such... it just gets me into a lot of trouble too... i think too much...

i'll be practicing for interviews.

talking with my t is pretty safe. talking with peers is not. i don't know. maybe it's anxiety, maybe it's lack of skills, maybe it's lack of confidence, maybe it's lack of trust, maybe it's something intrinsic to my brain... i've tried to work on all those that can be dealt with, and not gotten anywhere... and those things don't feel like the thing that's holding me back...

[imapatient]

I'm sending you a personal message to expand on this because some of it very sensitive stuff.

I have/have had the same problems to major degrees.

Sunrise is right, one definition of intelligence in fact is measured by one's capacity for abstract thought.

On the general issue of communication, one thing you'll end up benefitting from therapy is that your ability to communicate your thoughts and feelings will increase greatly. That's what you do in therapy--intense fumbling around to understand your thoughts and feelings and the more fumbling to express them so that another person understands them. I discovered after years of therapy that people came to think of me as extremely able to communicate on an intimate level about things, whereas previously that wasn't the case. It really helps to be able to do so in relationships; girlfriends think I'm really good at it whereas no one would’ve said the same thing years earlier.

Sticking with therapy will only help you become a better communicator.

My T said of me that I used to have confused thinking of some sorts but got past that. She was right.

[Taonuviel]

that's... a possibility. but... i don't know. i guess it feels like that could be part of my difficulty, but not all of it.

it seems like i can communicate things with enough time and an interested "audience". which is why i can communicate pretty well with my t. but that's not there with peers.

my thinking does seem pretty confused sometimes... but that may just be the depression.

[SpottedOwl]

(((Taonuviel)))

I've read through your thread, and I wonder if you've ever heard of Asperger's Syndrome? It is essentially high-functioning autism. Often people with AS are very intelligent, well-written, but they have difficulty with face-to-face communication. It can be difficult to read people's facial cues, and read between the lines of what they are saying.

The common complaint for people with AS is anxiety, another thing you mentioned.

I don't know if this fits for you or not, but I thought I'd throw it out there in case it might help. It sounds like you're doing a great job, and being very proactive.

((((((((((((((tao))))))))))))))))))

I was going to mention Apergers Syndrome as well - my middle son is diagnosed with it. He takes social skills classes to help him learn the nuances of face-to-face communication...I wonder if there is something like that for adults?

[Taonuviel]

actually yes, i heard of it in december and highly suspect i have it. but i don't have insurance to find out, and there's nothing to treat it.

earthmama - i think it'd be hard to find anything like that, since it's supposed to be diagnosed in childhood. i did some looking around and didn't see anything like that.

http://buildingcommonground.blogspot...eadership.html

This is an aspie adult who talks in his blog about Toastmasters. That is something for adults that is supposed to help with communication and public speaking skills....I wonder if it would be helpful??????

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Taonuviel

actually yes, i heard of it in december and highly suspect i have it. but i don't have insurance to find out, and there's nothing to treat it.

If you poke around on the Internet, you will find that there are ways to treat it or help manage symptoms, be more successful in life, etc. For example, EM mentioned social skills classes. That is a treatment. There are probably such things for adults. Or you could work on social skills one on one with your therapist, or a life coach. There are also support groups for adults with Asperger's. It sounds like you are being proactive by having a therapist. If you think you might have Asperger's, maybe you could mention that to him and he could do some sleuthing and come up with some new ideas.

I went to hear Temple Grandin talk tonight. She is autistic and has achieved a lot in life. She spoke about her new book about animals but also had quite a bit to say about autism, Asperger's etc. One thing she said a few times is that anyone on the spectrum can learn and keep learning. There is always space to improve. For example, if someone isn't diagnosed in childhood, they can still start from where they are at and learn, make progress identify their strengths and build on them. She had a very hopeful message.

Good luck.

[Taonuviel]

um... i went looking around again, and found a list of professionals with as experience around here, and found a psychiatric hospital dr on there who i've seen before, and got this strange little flash of a memory that i'm not sure whether it happened (i hate ect memory loss), of some incident of him mentioning as and my mom getting upset upon hearing of his suggestion that i might have a form of autism. but it's all so vague, i'm really not sure whether it happened.

anyway, i can't find any programs for adults, just lots for kids.

i actually did mention it to my t, who asked me why i thought so and said he's worked with students with as, but didn't say anything more about it. i thought he might have been trying to watch for signs in the rest of the session, but i don't know. this was a month ago and it hasn't come up again, but i wonder whether he forgot about it, because he seemed to forget/mix-up stuff the first few times i saw him, though i think he's not forgetting much anymore, maybe just had to see me a few times.

and i feel like there's not much more i can observe or learn... i've been trying to pick up on this stuff for the last decade and gotten nowhere on it.

[pegasus]

Hello (((((((( Tao )))))))))

With Autistic Spectrum Disordors there is difficulty in communication and an inability to read others emotions, and there is usually much anxiety associated with it. It should have been picked up at school but it may be that you are on the mild end of the spectrum. Saying all that it can be difficult to diagnose when someone has anxiety, depression or other issues going on at the same time. We can't diagnose over the internet but I thought it might be helpful for you to try this Autism/Aspergers quiz. Link here >>>>>>>>>>>

Autism / Asperger's Test

Originally Posted by Taonuviel

and i feel like there's not much more i can observe or learn... i've been trying to pick up on this stuff for the last decade and gotten nowhere on it.

Ahhhh, but that's the thing with the autism spectrum - people on the spectrum can't generally learn subtle social stuff by observing, and "trying to pick up" stuff - it has to be specifically taught. This was a hard concept for me to "get" with my son, but once he started social skills classes, I realized how much he wasn't just "picking up" by being part of the world....

(((((((((((((((((Tao)))))))))))))))))))))))))) It's a lot to think about!! I hope this is helpful, and not overwhelming...