[Wants2Fly]

I have been thinking the past few days about how easy it is to give away little pieces of myself when I have been in a relationship with a male significant other.

What sparked this was an email from Pat about skin care products that are harmful. It seems as if the lengths to which women are required to go to achieve beauty standards have no end.

From girdles we have escalated to liposuction. From make-up to cosmetic surgery. From uncomfortable underwire bras to breast augmentation. The list goes on and on. And now even innocent seeming moisturizers and similar products may be harmful.

But that, I think, is not the least of it. It seems as if I always wind up changing my life to be in the relationship. Little things at first, but in the end, what is left. For my husband, I sold furniture he thought was tacky, even though it was new. He had a friend who owned a thrift shop and sent me there to get clothing he would like better than my new, off-the-racks clothing.

For Paul, I changed my career, going to graduate school for 6 years. And when I didn't get tenure, he left five weeks later.

It starts small of course. Not doing things I used to do to spend more time with the man. Then not doing those things at all. Doing only the things he likes to do. Not cooking fish dishes with fruit compotes because he doesn't think meat and fruit belong together.

And this time, in the end, I was told that the whole relationship was about me from beginning to end.

My T and friends have said that this is what people do -- we make compromises in relationships. It's normal.

I'm not sure that's true for me. I'm not sure I know how to set a boundary that protects myself.

I feel that women barter away little pieces of themselves for the sake of the relationship.

What do you think?

you sure you got the time to hear this, Wants? i gave up veterinary school for the first husband...his law school was more important. i sold the herd of mother cows that i had bred and raised, to pay his tuition...you know where this one is going, don't you? he outgrew me after he became the city attorney in a small city..
..second husband..when we married, i worked for willie nelson and wore jeans, tee shirts, halter dresses, long skirts..kinda hippy, sorta but cooler. he started buying my clothes and it was no time til i looked just like a brooks brothers catalogue model.(we looked like twins).i loved to dance. during the courtship, we danced and danced and danced...after the marriage, no dancing.....he hunted quail and dove..he bought me a shotgun and i trekked on a weekly basis with Richard and his friends to pastures and fields..
i had a radical mastectomy, with reconstruction, when i was 31..when i had to have a revision, he arranged for me to go to a doctor that he was in Vietnam with....that happened about 6 more times. the physician would have me sitting on the examining table, nude from the waist up, and he would talk to Richard about what i needed in the way of surgery..i got ******, because it was MY body and the surgeries weren't working and i sneaked off and found a surgeon at OU...i gave up control of MY body for awhile.
i took up photography again and took a workshop in New Mexico...it set me on fire and i proceeded to produce and direct workshops that attracted people from all over the U.S. i started getting phone calls from photographers from here and there just to chat or talk about techniques.i could never talk about those friends or the workshops...
all we talked about at home was surgery and fly fishing..we went on a trip and he told me that it made him really angry that my career was taking off on a national basis and that he felt stalled in his....he had three specialities, for God's sake.
what did i give up? i gave up on myself and left that marriage without a shred of self-esteem or confidence.
i approach dating now with a 20 foot long pole and all the trepidation that one would feel if you were stepping into a pit of live rattlesnakes that didn't have their mouths wired shut..

[Wants2Fly]

Pat -- It was also knowing parts of your story and what we have shared with each other that has gotten me to thinking about this.

When P first left me, I moaned and whined to my shrink and my T about how I didn't want to be one of those middle-aged women who go to restaurants in groups, laughing and chattering without men.

As I come out of the post-stress trauma syndrome and depression, I fear men. I don't mean I expect to be raped or beat up, but I fear how I can give everything -- as you did -- and be left with nothing. Thrown away as if I am nothing. You had to get the guts to leave -- although you felt like you left with no shred of self-esteem, you have that courageous act of self-redemption as the start of your core of self.

I lived through the past two years, and didn't kill myself, and I guess that's gonna have be the foundation of my core of self-esteem.

But I do better understand why so many middle-aged women stick together in clutches, like birds.

I think this is an important thread because I observe so many of our younger members experiencing severe pain because of the partner's behavior. I remember that pain. I remember crying myself to sleep, clutching my empty wine bottle on the bed next to me, like a stuffed animal.

I know part of this pain for younger Psych Central member is hormones and life stage. I know part of it is the way our society uses sex to sell everything. I know as older women we face the pain of being thrown away by our society and outliving men so that the pool of availables shrinks. I wrote an academic research article about that, so I guess I have been contemplating this in one way or another for 10 years of so.

I hope that some of the younger members who pine for a relationships will be motivated to think about what the trade is. Susan/Ozzie, I think you've struck upon something important, too, the issue of self-esteem. I hope younger members will make sure that they establish a nice healthy strong self-esteem first and don't rely on getting their self-esteem from the other person. It is so very easy to slide into that without knowing it. We think we won't. Then we do it.

I am just thinking this through. I don't want to fear intimacy with men. Neither do I want to long for it in the way I used to.

I appreciate all responses from M and F and every age and stage of life.

~~~~~~~I hope that some of the younger members who pine for a relationship will be motivated to think about what the trade is. Susan/Ozzie, I think you've struck upon something important, too, the issue of self-esteem.~~~~~~~~

i want the younger women to hear this...i was thrust into the role of "cheerleader" for Richard and i didn't even realize it until the divorce...my therapist helped me establish a pattern of all the times that i was left standing there, shaking my head, and thinking "what did i just say?" we were able to look at what part i played in being forced to give "me" away and how i could have prevented it..IF i had know what the heck WAS going on. i had thought that i had put my pom-poms down when i went away to college.

i'd like to think that i'm wiser now, because i'm older. i think i'm just more frightened that someone else might do the same thing Richard did...

when we were in the throes of "cheating, lying and betrayal"...R went to a psychiatrist in Oklahoma City..(couldn't go to one in our town, people might see him and immediately jump to the conclusion that he wasn't perfect) the Pdoc made him tell me two things.

1. he was addicted to perfection.
2. in every situation in our life, where one of us was going to look bad, he manipulated the people involved and I ALWAYS LOOKED BAD..boy that was a shocker. BECAUSE, i spent had years, standing there scratching my head and saying, "what is going on?".....

the four children had the usual teen problems and he never, ever helped handle those situations...thus, it was moi, the evil mother, and Richard, the guy who was at the hospital, saving lives and looking good!!!!!!!!

Thanks, Wants, i needed to finish this and i did.......pat

Wants, i have a 90 year old friend and she talks about the "covey" effect that "those" women display....and when i was working for Billie, there was a woman across the street who was part of one of those groups. i'd see the big car pull up and see all those hairdos and then B would come out of her house and get in the car...i saw them at restaurants, the cafeteria and shopping. i know of what you speak...........p

[Shaymus]

I agree with Ozzie about the self esteem part that plays in this. I mean some of those things that are just for the men could very well have been done out of vanity or hoping this is the thing that finally gives them positive self image they seek(breast augmentation,liposuction). Other things are natural compromises that are done in all relationships. Still others are probably signs of low self esteem and the need that gives of people pleasing.

Not all of it can be pointed at that tho. The stereotype of the man waiting while the woman spends 2 hours getting ready. Ask the women and they will probably they say they are looking good for the mans benifit. Ask the man and he will say he hates the waiting and would rather she just go "as is". Some men are like the ones in the examples in other posts. Some women get so obsessed with their own looks and have so much plastic surgery they make Michael Jackson look normal. The normal of each tho dont do that in my opinion.

[Wants2Fly]

Yes, Pat, that's the problem, isn't it? Giving away the little pieces and not knowing what is going on.

That is really the nub of it. We give away pieces of ourselvesfreely, gladly, because we don't understand the dynamics of what is happening.

and with everyone on the sidelines, applauding you and saying things like "they make the perfect couple"......it is really easy to just stuff all your feelings and run with him....

[TgrsPurr]

Okay, so, I have a little bit of a different perspective on this. I'm 34 years old, never been married and no children. The longest intimate relationship I've been in lasted 2 years, twice. The rest, a few days, a few weeks or a few months. I've lived on my own for 15 years, supporting myself and doing everything for myself. No one around to take out the trash, no one to help out with the bills, no one around to eat dinner with or to cook for me for once. All the cooking, cleaning, bill paying, errands, car upkeep, laundry, everything...all up to me and me alone.

Now, I'm not complaining. I love my life, I love my home, I love my job and I love my indepence. I like knowing that I can take care of myself in every way there is to take care of oneself. Before I start sounding like I'm A-Sexual or something, allow me to clarify that much of the time I have had a boyfriend and I have one now.

My concern, when the time comes, I won't know HOW to give anything up, I won't know HOW to compromise, I won't know HOW to negotiate. Am I so set in my ways after so many years of being on my own that I won't be able to adjust to living with a man? What if he has kids? Yikes, that scares me the most.

I know what you're talking about Wants2Fly. I too at times put a man's desires before me own. I quit the degree I was going for to please the man I was with at the time who wanted me to come work for him. Needless to say that relationship didn't work out and I was left with a year of schooling that got me no where but in debt. I could give countless other examples of giving little pieces of myself away. But I do believe that now, I'm more capable of maintaining my identity than when I was in my 20's. I'm more cemented in my personality, likes, dislikes, needs, wants and desires. I believe that now I'm attracted to a man who doesn't expect me to compromise who I am, just compromise with the little things...what movie to go to, what's for dinner, what to watch on tv, which station to listen to on the radio, which friends come over or who were going to make plans with. I set my boundaries from the beginning. I'm a homebody, my house is sacred and my life evolves around my illness and maintaining the lifestyle I need in order to function in everyday life, especially work.

I think I may have fallen a little off track, but your posts brought all this to the forefront of my mind and I wanted to express myself. I hope I offered something helpful.

Want2, I find you to be an extremely thoughtful and thought provoking person. I enjoy your posts and seek them out. Keep it up. You have a fan.
TgrsPurr.

i have also been by myself for the past 15 years. dated one guy in NM and he said, "you have to choose between your photography and me". i said, "see ya" and drove off.....i feel that i'm unwilling to compromise as much as i think it would take now...maybe not??

[Wants2Fly]

Hey Tiger and Pat --

I spent 12 years alone between the end of the passionate marriage of my youth and meeting P. I was a career girl. I spent a lot of time with my dog, sometimes in the woods. I had my writing and intellectual activities. And I was a part-time barfly. Boyfriends, yes. Steady bfs who lasted, no.

I was 40 when I met Paul. He seemed to respect me and was willing to do more than his share. So pretty soon I didn't cook anymore -- something I'd always liked to do -- because he was "taking care" of me. Graduate school kept me busy. And he shooed me out of the kitchen.

Pretty soon I didn't walk my dog anymore and missed that. But he was looking out for me, wasn't he? (And, apparently, building up a huge stash of resentments.)

O, gawd, I don't want to relive all the the minutiae of the things that happened, the small compromises that left me where I am today -- him living with another woman and me trying to rebuild my cognitive functions and remember who I am.

This is why people say -- Oh that's what a relationship is. You make the compromises. It a constant process of negotiation.

I learned a lot about how to love and not be selfish in the relationship. I thought like you, Tiger, that I had lived alone too long to be able to have a loving relationship. I actually studied books and research about having relationships.

I guess, in the end, I prefer to have had the relationship than not to have had it. But I should have ended it a lot sooner, at the point when I realized that the sex was bad and wasn't never going to get any better.
I wish I hadn't been so desperate for companionship that I was so willing to trade away the last 15-years of my premenopausal sexuality.

Another place where I might have drawn a boundary and didn't. One of those people who hate change so much I'll chew off parts of my being -- in this case, my sexuality -- to avoid it.

[wi_fighter]

I want to reply to this, but don't want to go triggering anyone or threadjacking.

I gave away bits of myself too. Usually it was for the sake of "the couple" As in "We're going to see some people who could become business associates and make us a lot of money, act *this* way." or "sex isn't as spontaneous as it used to be, I bought "us" some toys and videos to get you in the mood." or "we've spent enough time living near your family, now we're going to move closer to mine." (coming right after I got a job promotion, and his family lived 3 hours away). And then after a good 15 years of being told what to do and how to do it, I'd had enough. Then it was "don't do this to us."

Ugh!

Now he's on his second "serious" relationship in four years. His first engagement crumbled and now he's living with a woman he couldn't even stand when he first got to know her, and I'm left wondering what's wrong with me because I've taken time to try and work on me before trying to involve someone else, while women thinks this guy is so perfect and flock at his feet. It leaves me wondering how many years it will take before they're telling "my" story in a place like this - the "if it weren't for me rescuing you, you'd still be nothing." Before I married him, I was vibrant and, while not extremely self confident, was able to overlook my insignificant faults and enjoy myself in public at least. Now I'm afraid everyone is picking me apart in their mind, running down a mental check list of things they'd fix.

[Wants2Fly]

Thank you for sharing, WI. I am so blessed that you and Fayerody are sharing these intimate parts of your story with me -- and for others to read who may not want to share right now.

Your sharing made me think back to my days, in the late 1960s, in an early "consciousness raising group." This was when women started coming out of homes, not to coffee klatch, but to identify common experiences we'd had that made us feel ashamed. Gyns putting us on early, imperfect birth control pills and then telling us we were nuts when we reported depression and other bad effects. Job ceilings. Unequal pay. Credit card companies that wouldn't accept our applications. Banks that wouldn't give mortgages. Each of us thinking, "It's me." Until we came out of our homes and shared these things we thought were "shameful."

It wasn't my intention to start a "consciousness-raising thread." But the needs have moved on. Perhaps time to tackle the more subtle things that happen on the slippery slope to loss of a strong healthy center of self.

I'm glad your here, WI, and that you shared this with us. Thank you, thank you.

[SeptemberMorn]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
It seems as if I always wind up changing my life to be in the relationship. Little things at first, but in the end, what is left.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yep. Both times.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
a thrift shop and sent me there to get clothing he would like better than my new, off-the-racks clothing.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

First husband: Oh, ho ho... OUCH! Yes, and after I had our first child, having gained 20 lbs, he wouldn't let me buy clothes because I "was too fat." So what was I supposed to do? Go naked?? I wound up continuing to make rudamentary dresses out of sheets, just like I had when I was pregnant, because, after all, I wouldn't need them after 6 months!

What's this? The Summer of My Discontent?

[Wants2Fly]

Thanks for sharing, Tomi. It seems as if these experiences are fairly widespread among women, yes?

[SeptemberMorn]

Gosh, Wants2! I hope not! Maybe it is among those of us who have been abused in childhood and marry men that carry on old family dynamics.

Both of my husbands have been abusive, although in opposite ways. The first one controlled me, hit me, emotionally abused me by calling me names and almost succeeding in making me believe that I was stupid and crazy. My second husband does it in exactly the opposite way. He never asks me where I've been, where I'm going, what I've done. He says he "trusts" me. What it is, in essence, is that he really doesn't want to know, get involved, won't make decisions. In short, he lays it all off on me, including his own personal responsibilities. By not supporting me, being involved, etc. he's abusing me emotionally, too. He makes me pay, or punishes me by his covert actions. If you can call it a good thing, he stops when I bust him on it although he claims he doesn't know what I'm talking about.

[SeptemberMorn]

An afterthought... I've become aware recently that I've been "giving parts of myself away" or losing my identity again. That's been happening in order to keep the peace, to try and resolve differences in a "mature" manner with "I statements" and such. The proof is in the fact that I'm unhappy. It's not easy anymore, to disengage my feelings from his. It's beginning to wear me out and I've stopped trying. It hurts. This ties in with my thread on "Addicted".

... which reminds me... I need to get him to call his sister. He claims he can't leave until he hears from her. She always calls on his cell. His cell is probably hidden in his room while he reads his cheap romance novel out in the back yard... See what I mean?

[Wants2Fly]

I think the phenomenon of women giving away parts of ourself is widespread and not confined only to women who have been abused physically or emotionally.

I was not "abused" in any way that I can think of by my long-ago husband or recent X. No T's have suggested that abuse was part of the equation. When I suggest that I gave away parts of myself, I am told that it is part of normal compromise in a relationship.

But I think that women are socially conditioned to be the ones who -- as you are doing now Tomi -- keep the peace, give in, adjust, diet, dress to please men, wear shoes that ruin our feet and later our joints. Has any man ever worn anything as uncomfortable as a girdle? A bustier? When men give up a job for their family, it's a huge deal. What a guy.

I don't know where the proper boundaries are. I really don't.

[radio_flyer]

This is interesting that you said this " Maybe it is among those of us who have been abused in childhood and marry men that carry on old family dynamics". A therapist somewhere said "that we subconsciously gravitate to that which is familiar"... I don't know if this is true, but it does make sense....

In my case, my second marriage, I married both my mother and my father. My father, what I can remember, was very passive.. My mother is controlling and abusive.... And my husband, was both passive and abusive. I think his abusive ways were more cultural, as he is from Iran. Either way, he was very controlling and abusive. He made the decisions from the food we ate to the furniture in our house. I was so torn down that I was ashamed to leave the house, for fear that people would see how worthless and stuipd I was... Anway I do believe self-esteem has a lot to do with how much we give of ourselves in relationships. Most women who are strong would not tolerate one minute what I tolerated for l2 years. I may not have had the greatest self-esteem when I married, but when I left the marriage, I had no self-esteem, whatsoever.

Dang, I lost my train of thought and I had a lot to say. Maybe it will come back to me later...

[wi_fighter]

Wow, radio_flyer, I think I'm on to something with your "married both my mother and father" comment. I think I married my mom and my dad and my stepdad, but I also AM my mom in some aspects (probably because I married my "dad").

!!!---POSSIBLE TRIGGERING COMMENTS---!!!

I didn't grow up in a physically abusive household and I'm not clear on the emotional aspects between my mom and dad. But I remember a few times where my mom just had to leave the house to get away and me not understanding where she was going or why she was leaving me. We moved out once when I was 4, but then came back a few months later, then we left permanently when I was 12/13. She was admitted to a P hospital for a few months once when I was in 2nd grade after a SA.

My mom always made more money than my dad, even though my dad had a successful horse shoeing business of his own. She was probably the one in charge of all of the expenses, and he most likely didn't like that. My ex made it clear that he was more important than me because he made more money. He'd put me in charge of the bills, but then take away that responsibility when he didn't know where every penny was going. Then bills started getting paid late, but he wouldn't give the task back to me. He expected me to pull more weight in the household to make up the income difference, even though I worked full time too and was taking care of two small children. I gave up more of "me" to become "wife" and "mom" while he was still just Tony.

I remember the occasional argument, nothing physical, and I honestly can't remember what was said. I never feared for myself, and only once when my brother shoved my mom was I ever scared for her. I don't ever remember being ridiculed by my family. I was actually the one always getting praised and being told how cute I was in the outfits my mom made for me. (good lord that's what my ex always did, had me on a freakin pedestal where I didn't belong). I do remember packing some grocery bags with clothes when I was 8 and saying I was running away during a fight. It must have been for something silly, because my mom did the usual "here, let me help you" routine. LOL

It wasn't until her second marriage when I was 16 that I was subjected to obvious emotional abuse by my stepdad. I heard it on a nearly daily basis and the guy was a jerk to begin with, so I must have gotten desensitized to it or blew it off. I must have started believing it was true, though, because when my ex started in with it, I just accepted it.

I'm rambling. But I'm starting to piece things together. I remember wanting to just escape some days because I felt like a prisoner and my ex was the warden. I ended up on a 3-day hold in the county hospital...I'm starting to feel like I'm reliving my childhood only this time I'm my mom.

[TgrsPurr]

I have no intention of hijacking this thread, I just have a question that pertains to me and the whole gravitating to ppl similar to our parents.

I've not seen my parents in 20 years, I've had extensive counseling and treatment. I've not been in a serious relationship for a long time. Does this still make me susceptable to that gravitational pull. While I havent had many substitute male figures in my life, there have been some, good ones at that. Would I be more likely to gravitate to men like them or my father. I am my fathers daughter, always have been. But all those years of therapy has helped me to overcome many of the issues I've had with him. Thoughts anyone? TgrsPurr. xo

I don't know the answer to that one, TgrsPurr..I wish I did..wouldn't your inner being still be stamped with what you saw your parents do?I honestly don't know the answer and it's a very thought-provoking question..

....I always pick a "holic"...alcoholic and workaholic for me in my two attempts at marriage.......that within itself scared me enough to have extensive therapy.

[TgrsPurr]

Thanks Pat, that's my thoughts exactly. My father had many wonderful qualities...charisma, charm, intelligence, work ethic, adventurer. But on the downside, alcoholic, anger issues, poor parenting skills, poor coping skills, condescending, arrogant, etc...

I guess only time will tell...
TgrsPurr.

i got my work ethic from my dad and i married two men who had really strong work ethics.......they both "sacrificed me" on the altar of their needs concerning work.

and I allowed it...........