The Good Wife

Hamster -
This is interesting to me, b/c I tended to think this way too. He's not out raping and pillaging, so what harm is it if he spends 4 or 5 hours every on the internet watching porn?

On the one hand, if I don't want a relationship with him, then I wouldn't care what he did. I'd be happy that he was leaving me alone and was finding his satisfaction elsewhere.

On the other hand, porn is by definition fantasy, and fantasy is much neater/cleaner than reality. By living in this fantasy world, he is not part of my world. There is no connection between us, in part b/c we don't spend any time together (he's holed up in his room watching porn all night). Without this connection, I'm not inclined to reach over the huge porn barrier to find his true self, which hinders the intimacy even more.

Saying that he wants to substitute me for the porn sounds and seems like a very good thing. It just doesn't feel that way to me. It feels like another manipulation to get me to do what he wants: have sex every day. Not make love, mind you. Just sex.

And you're definitely right that I'm confused and conflicted!

Thanks for the helpful insight!
Bub

On a side note, I never got how someone can watch porn for hours. Maybe I am single minded and when I am by myself I have one goal. What can someone possible do for the 3+ hours after they finish?

Adam,
I'm so grateful to have your opinion on this! It really helps a lot.

I'm by no means a saint when it comes to fixing our sex life. He knows what I like and what I don't. I have told him and showed him and he's very willing to try. From a strictly mechanical standpoint, we are fine. Physically, I can make him feel good and he can make me feel good. So that part is ok.

I know that I have as many issues as he does, and unfortunately, they're the opposite of his. I was sexually abused for years as a child and then when I married the first time, I lived in a platonic relationship for a man 15 years my senior for 10 years. He knew all of this when we got together. I didn't know anything of his sex life and preferences: the fetishes he has, the proclivity towards wanting to participate in orgies, the obsession with porn, etc.

Somehow I naively thought these things would just work themselves out. We do talk alot about sex, but these talks don't really change anything. I'm still the person who doesn't like foreplay and romance and he still wants to create and act out a fantasy every single night.

I'm starting to wonder if we can ever work this stuff out.

Never ask a question you don't want to know the answer to?!

Since no one knows me or him, I'll give you the briefest look into what takes so long. First, it involves selecting and then donning the right clothes. These happen to be women's clothes. Then he watches lesbian porn for a while to get himself in the mood. OK, there's nothing else I can say that would be acceptable here, except that he uses toys to bring himself very close to orgasm and then backs off...over and over and over again.

(This also means that when we're actually having sex, it takes forever!) It's a huge accomplishment on my part if I can ... ahem... make him finish in less than 45 minutes. Oh, and I work full time and have a 2 hr commute each day, while he doesn't work at all and can nap during the day. So clearly, I have as many issues as he does and I'm bitter about things. I really am working on this, I swear!

You have really dropped a bomb with that.

That sounds like an ordeal. A few weeks ago my doc gave me some meds that affected my ability to finish. There was one time I really went at it trying to get there. After an hour I took a small break and was laying in bed and she looked completly miserable. She gave me that look like are you done? She got hers and was just ready to pass out. I can't imagine having sex like that everytime and then everyday on top of it. That would he a lot to handle.

If you do not mind my diverting the thread away from its original topic... who pays the bills? Rent or mortgage, utilities, groceries, gas, the women's clothes he dons during porn viewing...

???

Don't mind at all. I do. All of it.

I am speechless.

Maybe he should quit focusing on weaning himself off porn and focus instead on beginning to make financial contributions to the household.

If he starts working, he will not have an opportunity to nap during the day.

Without that opportunity, he would have to sleep for more hours at night.

With the need to sleep for more hours at night will come the necessity to limit the time he watches porn.

So if his goal is to wean himself off porn, his obtaining gainful daytime employment would help him reach that goal as a collateral benefit, without placing demands on you.

Problem solved?

If you do not mind my asking further... how did you come to the point when you started considering what your obligations and responsibilities as The Good Wife (citing the thread's title) were without ever considering whether the husband had any obligations with respect to financial contributions to the household? Is he a stay-at-home-father?

Given how long it takes him to come and how often he is having his orgasms, I will assume that he is generally able-bodied. I mean, he clearly has some organs in working order (you guessed it right - I meant his hand(s)). So, probably not on disability due to physical disease... is he on disability due to mental health issues?

Look, are you sure that demands of daily one hour long sex sessions are the main issue?

And not his free riding?

Hamster,
You raise good questions. Ones that my T has been trying to get me to see for a while. I know he has obligations in the marriage that he's not meeting. (we don't have children ... by design. I knew he was not stable or mature enuff to be a father). I've been enabling him for years - the not working, endless expensive hobbies, drinking/drug use, porn - these things have been around since the very beginning of our marriage.

It obviously says much more about me that I've put up with this for so long. I've been working very hard in therapy over the last 14 months, and have come very far. In part, that's why I'm realizing now that his behavior is unacceptable to me. He thinks of me now as harsh, not-loving and intolerant. The rest of the world still thinks I'm a pushover, since I allow him to live this unburdened life.

In December, I went to a divorce lawyer. I told H about it and he demanded one more chance. Though my brain did not want to give him that one more chance, my mouth said okay. He's been a mess since then, the threat of the big D is hanging over his head and making his anxiety tons worse. Because his anxiety is so bad, all of his symptoms are exacerbated.

Now onto the question you asked about the Good Wife. I made a vow to and before God that I would remain married 'til death did we part. My friends and T have all said, "but he's not living up to his end of the bargain." And they are absolutely right. He isn't. BUT, does that give me license to dishonor that vow?

It was easier in December when he was still getting drunk every night and his temper was outrageous. But he has quit drinking, tho a self-acclaimed dry drunk, and he has held his tongue so that he doesn't rage around me anymore. I want to be happy about this, but I think I am so far gone that all I can think about is "well, isn't that great. Now I have no more excuse for getting a divorce"

He is so charmingly manipulative that I get sucked in every time. I went to sleep at midnight yesterday ... before he was ready to have sex ... and therefore he pouted all night and slept on the couch. This morning, he continued pouting and I was codependently miserable (though I didn't act on my misery). I wanted to make it all better for him and hate when he feels bad, but I'm reminding myself that he owns his own feelings and they are not mine.

I'm sorry I went on so long. I wish I could just make up my mind and do it - either stay and be fully committed or go. But I just seem to waffle...
Bub

I see...

In December, did the divorce lawyer outline your future obligations to support the. Ex H financially after the divorce, if you go that route? For how many years will you need to provide support?

If he gets a lawyer, which I'd probably have to pay for, he's most likely going to get 50% of everything, since I live in a modified no-fault state

He is a lucky guy...

Back to the original question... I am sure your marriage vows did not obligate you to run marathons without proper training and on a short notice whenever your H so desires. Nightly sex for an hour after a two hour long commute is more like marathon than like conjugal love making. So no, you should not have any obligation to perform, in anybody's book.

Plus, I do not see the point in his weaning himself off porn. Who would benefit from it?

I thought that love making is better than masturbation to porn because it connects two human beings. Per your report, there is no connection for either of you. It is completely mechanical. So, it is in no way better than porn. Let him masturbate and use the benefit of an extra hour of sleep for yourself. You need that hour, with your kind of schedue.

Yes, I think it does. Here is why:

You can vow to remain celibate and it will be your responsibility to honor the vow because remaining celibate is completely within your control.

Building a traditional marriage based on traditional concepts is a joint enterprise of two people.

I see that he deviated from the role of the husband in a traditional marriage in several ways:

1) he is not the kind of man with whom you would want to have children, and traditional marriages usually include that component

2) he dons women's clothes and men in traditional marriages usually comply with acceptable standards of virility

3) he is not the breadwinner and not even a co-contributor to the household financially

4) combining (2) and (3), it is especially non-traditional for a man to masturbate in women's clothes purchased with his wife's earnings

Now, I am sure that if you were to go through your posts in this thread really carefully, you will collect a dozen more instances of his deviations from the role of the husband in a traditional marriage.

You won't be able to build a traditional marriage with him so you might as well stop trying.

Am so sorry to read of what's been happening, and kudos to you and your therapy giving you strength.

I'd like to say a few things tho, if ok. You talk about when you went to a divorce lawyer, and that set of your husbands anxiety. I bet it did. If you left him, that would mean that finally, he would have to grow up, get a job and start looking after himself, instead of leaving it all to you.

You say that with his recent change in behaviour, that the drink has stopped his rages and that this doesn't give you a reason for a divorce anymore. I think you should listen closely to what you wrote after, that it no longer makes you happy, and that you're too far gone. With all the things he does (and doesn't do when he should), the rages sound like just one of many reasons to divorce. And the best reason of all? Your own happiness. It seems to be that you are sacrificing that every day and that makes me so very sad. We only have one life, and surely 10 years of this is enough for anyone?

I understand not making vows lightly, I really do. But there are many reasons why that anyone, including God (if you are religious) would understand if you did divorce. I do agree with sacrificing a lot for the greater good, but am afraid, sacrificing it for a husband who doesn't seem to value what you give him, or you as a person, just isn't the greater good. You made the vows in good faith, and it's not your fault that things turned out the way they did.

If you are really having trouble making up your mind, have you considered giving yourself a time scale? I think that it can help some situations. Like yours - say if that things do not improve considerably in 3,6 or even 9 (whatever seems right for you) months time, then enough is enough. At least this way it can help you make up your mind, rather than drift from month to month, year to year, and still be unhappy. I take it that your husband is now fully aware how you feel, and if he is going to take you and your marriage seriously, then he must do it now.

Good luck, and I really hope that you get to have some happiness soon. You sound so very kind (too kind!) and I always think nice things should happen to nice people.

Hugs.

I cannot tell you how much it means to me that you all took the time to help me process this. I plan to print it out and talk it over with my T when I see her on Friday.

God blessed me with you and I'm very grateful.

Bub

Best wishes to you bubsmiley. I hope you find peace soon.

Hi Bub.

Between everything you've received here, there's not a lot left for me to add. You've received some great advice.

I did want to offer...you mentioned he demanded a second chance, and wanted to avail himself to your services? I have to ask, who on earth is he to demand anything from you? He's your husband, not your commanding officer! You deserve much, much more respect than what he has shown you...now, and in the past. He should never have coerced you into sexual acts you were not comfortable with. That is so, so wrong of him, and I'm sorry you were ever put in that situation.

You mention fear of your vows...that's a very noble concern to have, I think, but your friends and T are absolutely right. I'm not married, and I've been to precious few weddings, but typically, the vows read something like this (copied and pasted from google):

"Will you love him/her, honor him/her, comfort him/her, and keep him/her in sickness and in health; forsaking all others, be true to him/her as long as you both shall live?"

After one says "I do" or "I will" to that caveat, the other says the same, correct? My point in bringing this up is that he has NOT been doing any of that. He has not honored you by not respecting your wishes, and he has certainly not forsaken all others. Even the way he asked you to "help" him with his porn addiction...pardon my frankness, but the way he addressed you, his wife, sounds like he was addressing a sex worker . That shows a HUGE lack of those things listed in that vow, as I see it. The way I see it, myself being legal minded, that's a fundamental breach of contract on his part, thus dissolving the contract. You're not dishonoring anything or anyone by getting out of this, if you so choose.

I do hope I was of some help, and I do hope I wasn't too blunt...it simply bothers me for him to treat you this way. If I can do anything for you, please don't hesitate to PM me, and know that you are in my prayers and I wish you all of the best.

Hugs,
Harley

I’ve just got a few minutes to update this. I went and saw T. today and brought her this printout. She hasn’t read it yet, but focused on why I felt I needed validation and clarification. While H was testing me in other ways (spending more, not going to his own therapy when he said he would, etc.) I was clear in my mind that those were his issues. I didn’t fall into the codependent trap and wonder what was wrong with me. Having pushed all those boundaries unsuccessfully*, T suspects he went back to the tried and true: he knows what triggers me and therefore played the sex card. Since I was indeed triggered by it, I started doubting myself. You saw my questions – is it my responsibility to be available at any moment for him to quit using porn, etc? You all reacted in a very normal, non-triggered way. NO! It’s not my responsibility. Furthermore, knowing my long CSA history, if he really loved, honored and cherished me, he wouldn’t have put me in this situation in the first place.

She further said that because it’s done with no regard to my feelings or safety, every time I “give in” and have sex with him, I’m putting myself at risk of being sucked back into the unhealthy relationship and worse, not knowing that I’ve been sucked back in. She went so far as to say it was tantamount to rape. It’s unfortunately true that he has drugged and raped me previously, but I’m not sure this qualifies. Nevertheless, it still takes the wind out of my sails even to hear that.

As a result of my reaction to this incident, my every-two-week T status has been revoked. She also called me twice this week, which she has never done. The thing that’s bothering her most is that I don’t see to realize how much I am triggered by him and that I’m dissociating again. And that I’m not angry at him. And that I seem to care too little about my needs/boundaries to say no to him.

*I asked why he was pushing my boundaries at all. If I were in his shoes, I think I’d want to be on my best behavior and not test the other person. She’s met him several times and said, he’s so afraid of being abandoned that he’s trying to do it first. That pushing me out is better than me walking out. I admit I don’t understand that logic, but I’m sure others don’t understand my illogical logic sometimes either.

I have a lot to think and pray about. I truly thank you for helping me!
Bub

What she means is as follows: if your husband pushes you out, being the agent rather than the recipient of the action of abandonment, he will feel better than he would feel if you initiate his abandonment. He wants to be the agent rather than the passive recipient.

Ultimately, it does not matter very much. Deciphering his logic, motivation, hidden impulses, agendas, etc. is a waste of your time.

Is he aware that he's doing this? I would think it only feels better if you knew you were actively pushing, rather than being acted upon. In the end, you're right, the result is the same, so it probably doesn't matter.

Bubs, am so glad to hear you've such a nice therapist, and is really looking after you. Can you bottle her up and share her about please?! Good luck with everything you are facing, keep strong and keep working hard huh? You really do deserve happiness :-)
Please keep us updated, and anything we can do, just shout.
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