Sorry for the second thread, but this is a different issue.

I've been having a very hard time feeling secure in my relationship. It's nothing he's doing…he's pretty much done everything correctly. But I know I'm an awful, difficult person who's not even traditionally pretty, so I don't really understand why or how he is able to love me or how he's attracted to me so I guess I'm afraid it's all been a lie and he's just going to say ha ha just kidding! and suddenly leave me. I don't know why…he's been there through all the hard stuff and we've been both separately having difficult times in our lives.

We're both doctoral students facing a prospect of never finding jobs in our field and having to move back home with family. We've been together since we both started our degrees so we've never been together during times of low stress or actual hope for the future. So logically, if we can figure out to make it through this experience (and I'm starting to believe a doctorate is one of the worst experiences outside of trauma), then we could make it through virtually anything. Maybe I'm just young and stupid though…

I guess I come a unique situation where 3 out of our four parents married their first loves so it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that it's possible for us to be married someday despite being each other's first loves (He's had relationships before me, he just didn't fall in love with them. The closest thing I ever had to a relationship involved a guy using and abusing me.) It's not like this is a high school relationship or something either…I was 26 and he was 31 when we met. So no one's going to radically change and we mostly know (despite not having tons of experience) what we want in a partner. And besides sexual issues (which my past doesn't help at all and I believe they're fixable), he is who I would want in a partner.

The reason I'm really so afraid he's going to suddenly leave me is because he's the first person who's ever really bothered to truly listen to me. My family is absolutely incapable of emotional support so I'll have no support if something were to happen to him. And I'm just not capable of making and maintaining friendships. No one really has time for that in a doctoral degree anyway…but still, even if I did, I am absolutely terrified of people. I'm the sort that everyone will take advantage of because I'm nice and will do everything someone wants. I don't really have much in common with women and I'm even more terrified and untrusting of men.

I also tend to develop feelings for anyone who's the least bit nice to me so I'm afraid that if I make friends, I'll start having crushes on people that will jeopardize my relationship. He's aware this happens, but is secure enough to accept it. I just don't trust myself or other people. What's to stop a guy friend from taking advantage of the fact that I'm probably not going to say no or fight back? And then I'll get blamed because I would be the cheater. That's why I can't be friends with men.

I don't know why the idea of being friends with women scares me so much…they seem less likely to sexually assault me. I guess in some cases I can't see why they would want to be friends with the ugly weirdo nerd so I assume they want to use me for something. And I'm so good at being used! There are a few girls around that I feel I can trust, but still the effort to start something is so immense I feel like I have to do instead of doing school work. I can't afford to not do work during the semester.

And yes, I'm in therapy. But it moves so slowly…I'm panicking because I needed solutions yesterday! Without friends my career will be a failure before it even begins. Without my partner, I won't have anyone to listen to and support me. It has taken an extreme effort to build and maintain that relationship. I don't know if I have the energy to begin several new friendships and push them into close friendships quickly so I'll have a support system in case something happens to my relationship.

[Skeezyks]

Hello I.Am.The.End.: I don't really have advice for you. I mostly wanted to leave a brief note letting you know I read your post. It's really unfortunate that both you & your bf are in doctoral programs in fields where you may not be able to find employment... SO much work... with no final reward! I hope things turn out better than you anticipate. I'm afraid I can't offer much in the way of relationship advice. Relationships have never been my "long suit", as they used to say. I wish you well...

The pressure of our degrees and the hopelessness of our futures really does get to both of us. I just hope one of us gets a higher ed job after graduation (hopefully him because I can figure out a plan B easier). I know he'll be looking overseas as well as in the US so hopefully one of us can find something.

I actually feel a little hopeful about the future as long as he's there, but I don't know what I'd do if something were to happen to him. I can't really do this on my own with little knowledge or support.

[yagr]

Originally Posted by I.Am.The.End.

Sorry for the second thread, but this is a different issue.

I like reading your stuff so pfft.

Originally Posted by I.Am.The.End.

I've been having a very hard time feeling secure in my relationship. It's nothing he's doing…he's pretty much done everything correctly. But I know I'm an awful, difficult person who's not even traditionally pretty, so I don't really understand why or how he is able to love me or how he's attracted to me so I guess I'm afraid it's all been a lie and he's just going to say ha ha just kidding! and suddenly leave me. I don't know why…he's been there through all the hard stuff and we've been both separately having difficult times in our lives.

Forgive me for this, but I'm going to share something I dug up recently. I'm not sharing it for self-indulgent purposes, I'm hopeful you might 'get it' and realize that the self-image, the not traditionally pretty, etc., becomes meaningless at some point. I wrote this to my wife many years ago; we've been together thirty years now.

When we are advised to “accept ourselves for who we are” we automatically consider and reconcile ourselves to our shortcomings. We try to accept the fact that we’re a bit overweight or not the most experienced person in the office; we accept that we’ll never be as smart as Kyle or have flawless skin like Jessica. To truly accept ourselves as we are we need to go beyond and behind our fears and first actually see ourselves as we truly are. Consider this:

Until I met you, never has a woman been able to stupefy me with her beauty. You know that it’s true. You’ve watched as our conversation sputters, my train of thought gone, the complete bewilderment and utter confusion on my face as I get lost in you. To me, you are the most beautiful woman I have ever known; but beauty couldn’t have me.

You are the most intelligent woman I have even met. Intellectually gifted, street smarts, emotional intelligence, you are the complete package. I bring everything to you; holding nothing back because of a fear that you won’t understand. The subject might be obscure, the concept revolutionary, the depth daunting – but you intuitively grasp whatever subject matter I bring to you; but intelligence couldn’t have me.

You possess a self-awareness born of wisdom attributable only to an old soul. Your ability to peer behind fear and see things as they truly are is astounding. You’ve amazed me from the first day we met and that amazement only grows. Able to grow beyond your programming, you are freer than most will ever be. From our earliest days I knew and I shared with you my desire to always watch the world reflected through your eyes. You are my beloved teacher; but wisdom couldn’t have me.

When love abides in a person, there is a light that emanates from them; the energy from that light is palpable and measurable. We ponder the strange behavior of the moth, drawn inexorably to the light and yet, their behavior is far from strange; all living things are drawn to the light. You are my light, you lift me up and help me to become more than I could be without you. Only love could have me; it took love.

Love is light, light is energy and energy has a frequency that determines compatibility between other sources of energy. Whatever you think of me baby, whatever significance you might attribute to me, whatever spirituality or love you find in me, know that in all the universe, you are my perfect balance. Accept yourself for who you are; accept your greatness and your divinity. Dare to reject the diseased and decrepit tapes, which speak of insignificance and brokenness. See yourself as you truly are. See yourself as the only woman I’ve ever felt worthy to be my world.

Originally Posted by I.Am.The.End.

Maybe I'm just young and stupid though…

My reaction to the first post I read from you was that this person is incredibly insightful and intelligent. Nothing you've written since has changed my mind.

Originally Posted by I.Am.The.End.

The reason I'm really so afraid he's going to suddenly leave me is because he's the first person who's ever really bothered to truly listen to me. My family is absolutely incapable of emotional support so I'll have no support if something were to happen to him. And I'm just not capable of making and maintaining friendships. No one really has time for that in a doctoral degree anyway…but still, even if I did, I am absolutely terrified of people. I'm the sort that everyone will take advantage of because I'm nice and will do everything someone wants. I don't really have much in common with women and I'm even more terrified and untrusting of men.

Everything you've said makes sense in context. Your fears are reasonable for a person who has lived your life. But at the end of the day, all we have is now. Fear or no fear, if that day ever comes, you will likely be in just as difficult a spot as you imagine. Don't imagine the nightmare so vividly that you live it before it happens...if it happens at all.

[Permacultural]

Doctoral programs are a royally unnatural, anxiety inducing alternate universe. You do things and say things that later you will ask, "how the F did I survive it?" Because of the prolonged effects of several years worth of stress, get something.. Anything.. That allows you to veg out. Even if isn't a direct super high position.

Getting a doctorate opens a new door. But once you walk through that door, you need to hang in there and send out as many job applications as possible. Some will take a chance because you won't command as much of a salary as someone starting out as a seasoned full professor. Some won't call you back. Some will. Either way, the most important thing is to ace the interview.

Seriously, you need to relax. Don't get too far ahead of yourself and start thinking years in the future. Once you are able to truly relax without having deadlines for about 6 months, you will be start to feel somewhat normal. I've been through it, so I can say that I know how you feel.

Originally Posted by yagr

Everything you've said makes sense in context. Your fears are reasonable for a person who has lived your life. But at the end of the day, all we have is now. Fear or no fear, if that day ever comes, you will likely be in just as difficult a spot as you imagine. Don't imagine the nightmare so vividly that you live it before it happens...if it happens at all.

If only I didn't have such a vivid imagination, this would probably be easier. But anyway, I understand what you're saying from a logical point of view about being in the now. I wish I was better at that, but like I said I have a vivid imagination. I guess when you want something badly enough but don't have 100% control over whether you get it or not it's maddening.

I grew up seeing that my dad was just really good at what he did and despite him not being particularly gifted socially, was able to always have a job and had employers begging him to come work for him. And so I believed (and he still believes) that if you work hard and you're one of the best at what you do, jobs will find you. And so I was never taught social skills because they were deemed unnecessary.

Also, thank you for sharing that note. My boyfriend sent me one similar. It's not nearly as poetic as yours but he's a poet with his horn, not his words.

Originally Posted by Permacultural

Doctoral programs are a royally unnatural, anxiety inducing alternate universe. You do things and say things that later you will ask, "how the F did I survive it?" Because of the prolonged effects of several years worth of stress, get something.. Anything.. That allows you to veg out. Even if isn't a direct super high position.

Getting a doctorate opens a new door. But once you walk through that door, you need to hang in there and send out as many job applications as possible. Some will take a chance because you won't command as much of a salary as someone starting out as a seasoned full professor. Some won't call you back. Some will. Either way, the most important thing is to ace the interview.

Seriously, you need to relax. Don't get too far ahead of yourself and start thinking years in the future. Once you are able to truly relax without having deadlines for about 6 months, you will be start to feel somewhat normal. I've been through it, so I can say that I know how you feel.

I know I need to relax…I would relax more if I saw my peers getting jobs after getting their doctorates instead of being forced back into their old jobs.

Maybe it's like this in other fields, but there's usually 90-100 applicants and 3 will get an interview which involves interviews/presentations in front of the administration, the faculty, and the students over multiple days. That's at a big school which I would have zero chance of even getting an interview at until I've had at least 20-30 years of professional experience. And the issue with small schools or schools in the middle of nowhere is it's difficult to have a second job/performing career if you're not in or near a city. There's just too much to worry about with this. I just don't have the name recognition or the networking/social skills to make it anywhere.

If I had an extensive support system or knew how this game worked, I wouldn't worry that much. If one opportunity fell through, I'd have the knowledge and support to find another one. But right now I don't.

[TryingToMoveForward]

I commend you for pursuing a doctorate. It is a dream of mine, but now I'm questioning whether I'd like to pursue it. In all seriousness though, I relate a lot to what you're saying. Not being a contemporary beauty, or liking myself all that much either. What Yagr shared could not have been conveyed any better. There is a message there you might want to take to heart. I know I will try to. You're at a point where there are a lot of unknowns in your life, so insecurity makes a lot of sense.

Relationships are not my forte. So there isn't any advice I can really give you, other then being gentle and kind to yourself. Understanding and accepting these insecurities and knowing they aren't permanent. Take care of yourself.

Originally Posted by TryingToMoveForward

I commend you for pursuing a doctorate. It is a dream of mine, but now I'm questioning whether I'd like to pursue it. In all seriousness though, I relate a lot to what you're saying. Not being a contemporary beauty, or liking myself all that much either. What Yagr shared could not have been conveyed any better. There is a message there you might want to take to heart. I know I will try to. You're at a point where there are a lot of unknowns in your life, so insecurity makes a lot of sense.

Relationships are not my forte. So there isn't any advice I can really give you, other then being gentle and kind to yourself. Understanding and accepting these insecurities and knowing they aren't permanent. Take care of yourself.

I wouldn't question pursuing a doctorate just based on my experience with it if that's what you're implying.

It's just the reasons I don't like myself is why I don't have friends and why I don't imagine many (if any) other people falling in love with me. I have little capacity for empathy. The only reason I think I have any at all or that I'm able to bond with another human is because I seem to bond with him. Affection and touch was something I had to learn…I didn't already know how to show affection physically like everyone else. I'm incredibly selfish and didn't even realize until it was pointed out to me. I have narcissistic traits. Despite (because of?) my low self-esteem I feel like I need to be worshipped. I'm never given enough credit for what I do. The reason I'm not more manipulative in life is because I don't know how to be…I don't know the right thing to say. I just end up being too truthful and blunt. I just don't pay enough attention to other people. I don't understand why someone would want to be my friend unless they're using me in some way and so I avoid getting close to people anymore. When I did people either reacted against me either violently or used me.

Now I'm more self-conscious because I can see how much of a monster I am and can pinpoint specific reasons.

[hazn]

It sounds like you suspect yourself of being a covert narcissist.

May I ask how long you have been with your boyfriend, and what it is you like about him? Can you see any faults in your boyfriend? You mentioned that you feel like you've bonded with this person, in what way exactly? You mentioned that your boyfriend is "secure", could you elaborate a little? Has he ever expressed dissatisfaction with you, or concerns about your relationship?

[hazn]

Also you speak very negatively of yourself... you mentioned lack of empathy, selfish, unaffectionate, etc ...how do you manage to explain that to your boyfriend? Or, is it something you've been able to hide from him?

Originally Posted by hazn

It sounds like you suspect yourself of being a covert narcissist.

May I ask how long you have been with your boyfriend, and what it is you like about him? Can you see any faults in your boyfriend? You mentioned that you feel like you've bonded with this person, in what way exactly? You mentioned that your boyfriend is "secure", could you elaborate a little? Has he ever expressed dissatisfaction with you, or concerns about your relationship?

I suspected that after reading a thread about it. I have narcissistic traits but I'm certainly not NPD or anything. I'm not good at manipulation or anything like that. I've also wondered if I had Aspergers, but it's inconclusive.

We've been together for a little more than a year and three months. I like that he's nice to me. He actually listens to me and I feel like I can actually express needs and they won't be ignored. He actually bothered to get to know me. He's also become more patient with me (believe it or not) the longer he's known me. He seems to accept me the way I am to a certain extent anyway. And yes, I can see faults in him. Some of those come from his own issues such as Aspergers and another neurological disorder. Look in the sex forum to see any of the many threads I made about our sexual problems which might stem a lot from the neurological issues I'm starting to think. He also has a tendency to become belligerent when I'm trying to help him.

I feel we've bonded because I can actually feel empathy for him. He's said that he's seen me show empathy towards him, just not towards other people. I just feel like the same species as him, you know what I mean?

And by secure, I mean he trusts me to not cheat or something like that. I could have male friends and he wouldn't feel threatened.

And yes he has expressed dissatisfaction with me and concerns about the relationship. Especially about my ability to be a mother. I'll admit that at this point in time, I wouldn't make a good mother, but I don't see how I can't be in a few years? I might just be behind in developing emotional maturity etc. I have changed in the time he's known me so I've at least shown that I'm not incapable or unwilling to change.

He's also the one to mention how selfish I am. I never realized. I guess when I try to be selfless it's disingenuous and superficial.

Originally Posted by hazn

Also you speak very negatively of yourself... you mentioned lack of empathy, selfish, unaffectionate, etc ...how do you manage to explain that to your boyfriend? Or, is it something you've been able to hide from him?

Meeting my parents explained it to him. How would I learn empathy and affection from a very cold family? How would I learn to not be selfish if I'm an only child from a family that has money? This is the result of my childhood and he understands it from that context. He's also spoke with a former therapist with me. Although we were discussing how when I suddenly get depressed for a day or two that I wasn't doing it to manipulate him into spending time with me. When I get that low, I don't feel safe left to myself.

I don't really hide anything from him. And he pretty much knows everything. And I don't see any reason to start lying or hiding anything now.

And I have actually learned how to be physically affectionate without being told what to do. It's not 100% natural yet in all cases, but I'm a lot more comfortable with it. It wasn't like I never wanted affection. I just didn't know how it worked. It always had sexual connotations to me, so it made it harder to learn before being in a romantic relationship. I've only managed to show empathy to him, so I'm capable of it, but I'm not sure how to show it with people I'm not really close to. I don't know if I'm less selfish or not…I would think it helps that I'm aware of it at least.

[hazn]

Thank you for sharing. I hope therapy will help you overcome some of these issues

[DBTDiva]

Originally Posted by I.Am.The.End.

Sorry for the second thread, but this is a different issue.

I've been having a very hard time feeling secure in my relationship. It's nothing he's doing…he's pretty much done everything correctly. But I know I'm an awful, difficult person who's not even traditionally pretty, so I don't really understand why or how he is able to love me or how he's attracted to me so I guess I'm afraid it's all been a lie and he's just going to say ha ha just kidding! and suddenly leave me. I don't know why…he's been there through all the hard stuff and we've been both separately having difficult times in our lives.

We're both doctoral students facing a prospect of never finding jobs in our field and having to move back home with family. We've been together since we both started our degrees so we've never been together during times of low stress or actual hope for the future. So logically, if we can figure out to make it through this experience (and I'm starting to believe a doctorate is one of the worst experiences outside of trauma), then we could make it through virtually anything. Maybe I'm just young and stupid though…

I guess I come a unique situation where 3 out of our four parents married their first loves so it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that it's possible for us to be married someday despite being each other's first loves (He's had relationships before me, he just didn't fall in love with them. The closest thing I ever had to a relationship involved a guy using and abusing me.) It's not like this is a high school relationship or something either…I was 26 and he was 31 when we met. So no one's going to radically change and we mostly know (despite not having tons of experience) what we want in a partner. And besides sexual issues (which my past doesn't help at all and I believe they're fixable), he is who I would want in a partner.

The reason I'm really so afraid he's going to suddenly leave me is because he's the first person who's ever really bothered to truly listen to me. My family is absolutely incapable of emotional support so I'll have no support if something were to happen to him. And I'm just not capable of making and maintaining friendships. No one really has time for that in a doctoral degree anyway…but still, even if I did, I am absolutely terrified of people. I'm the sort that everyone will take advantage of because I'm nice and will do everything someone wants. I don't really have much in common with women and I'm even more terrified and untrusting of men.

I also tend to develop feelings for anyone who's the least bit nice to me so I'm afraid that if I make friends, I'll start having crushes on people that will jeopardize my relationship. He's aware this happens, but is secure enough to accept it. I just don't trust myself or other people. What's to stop a guy friend from taking advantage of the fact that I'm probably not going to say no or fight back? And then I'll get blamed because I would be the cheater. That's why I can't be friends with men.

I don't know why the idea of being friends with women scares me so much…they seem less likely to sexually assault me. I guess in some cases I can't see why they would want to be friends with the ugly weirdo nerd so I assume they want to use me for something. And I'm so good at being used! There are a few girls around that I feel I can trust, but still the effort to start something is so immense I feel like I have to do instead of doing school work. I can't afford to not do work during the semester.

And yes, I'm in therapy. But it moves so slowly…I'm panicking because I needed solutions yesterday! Without friends my career will be a failure before it even begins. Without my partner, I won't have anyone to listen to and support me. It has taken an extreme effort to build and maintain that relationship. I don't know if I have the energy to begin several new friendships and push them into close friendships quickly so I'll have a support system in case something happens to my relationship.

I think it's very good you are in therapy. You need to work on your self esteem. Until you believe that you should be loved and are worthy of love, and that he's not crazy for loving you then it will always be in the back of your mind that he will wake up one day and go "oh crap, why the heck am I with this person?" Because you see yourself as THIS: an awful, difficult person who's not even traditionally pretty, so I don't really understand why or how he is able to love me or how he's attracted to me. ugly weirdo nerd

I had a lot of self loathing when I was younger. I could've said that same thing, minus the pretty part. I screwed up several relationships because I believed that there must be something wrong with the person for loving me because I was not lovable. Too moody, emotional, difficult, extreme, flightly, etc. You describing yourself as getting feelings for anyone who gives you attention is also really familiar to me.

I think as your self esteem gets better you will find yourself less likely to be taken advantage of and the friendship will come more easily. You'll attract less "users" because you'll have an easier time saying "no."

If these things are true, would self-esteem be a delusion? People don't disagree that I have a bad personality or that I'd only be considered beautiful by some people. Shouldn't I become a person worthy of self-esteem in the first place before attempting to create it out of thin air? Besides how does one build self-esteem if one never had it in the first place? Therapists want you to remember when you had self-esteem and to rebuild it. I never had it.

[DBTDiva]

Originally Posted by I.Am.The.End.

If these things are true, would self-esteem be a delusion? People don't disagree that I have a bad personality or that I'd only be considered beautiful by some people. Shouldn't I become a person worthy of self-esteem in the first place before attempting to create it out of thin air? Besides how does one build self-esteem if one never had it in the first place? Therapists want you to remember when you had self-esteem and to rebuild it. I never had it.

Who is worthy of self-esteem? Can you describe that person? What other people besides yourself would you consider unworthy? Who gets to decide who is worthy or unworthy? Self esteem is mostly an illusion, as far as it is what we think about ourselves. We can think whatever we decide to think. Haven't you ever seen a celebrity or someone who seems to be famous for no reason - they're not especially talented or good looking, but they think very highly of themselves. I think reality tv is full of such people. They obviously have very high self-esteem, probably inflated to the point that it is not realistic, and yet they don't care that the world thinks they're not so great. The believe they are great so they act as if, and other people agree.

Years ago a therapist had me get this book http://www.amazon.com/The-Self-Estee.../dp/1572242523 I don't remember a lot about it honestly but it was the beginning of me having better self-esteem. I don't think you necessarily have to have a foundation of a time you remember of having good self-esteem. Some people who have had many adverse childhood experiences might not be able to think of a time but that doesn't mean that you can't begin building a foundation. It just might take longer than those who can remember back when they believed in themselves more, but it doesn't mean it can't be done. Lots of what happens in therapy is learning new skills we didn't have before.

[hazn]

oooo thanks DBTDiva, I wanted a book on self-esteem!

[DBTDiva]

Originally Posted by hazn

oooo thanks DBTDiva, I wanted a book on self-esteem!

There's also a bunch of great worksheets that are free on this website CBT Worksheets For Therapy & Self-Help PDF | Psychology Tools Self Esteem is in the middle down near the bottom of the page, below generalized anxiety.

[hazn]

Originally Posted by DBTDiva

There's also a bunch of great worksheets that are free on this website CBT Worksheets For Therapy & Self-Help PDF | Psychology Tools Self Esteem is in the middle down near the bottom of the page, below generalized anxiety.

Awesome, thank youuuuu

Hello you I feel exactly the same way about my boyfriend - except the fact, that I'm not afraid he'll leave me. And you shouldn't be either. He sounds great, and you should just accept that he loves you, and let him help you learning to be loved. Because for me, that seems to be your problem - you don't think you deserves to be loved, and therefore you don't trust anyone. But you do deserve love. And people is actually capable of loving you. But you need to learn this on your own.

A lot of my lack of self-esteem comes from not being able to hold a full time job while I'm a full time doctoral student. I had a temporary job last semester that was about 30 hours in a week and I got a week behind in my school work. I can't just go to part time either because my boyfriend and I need to graduate at the same time, or we'll end up apart for a year or so. But you know, everyone else has a job and most have a family at the same time they're a doctoral student. One goes to class during the day and works nights. And I can't even handle 30 hours a week when I'm not married and don't have kids?! And this is when they're FULL TIME students, not part time. I work a full time temporary job in the summer, but to me I don't get paid enough within the year to have value as a person. I just know other people put the minimum amount of work possible in their school work and I tend to be the top of the class because I have all day to do work. But no one cares about grades…it won't help me get a job. Having a job will help me get a job. Being unemployed for so long because I've been a student virtually my whole life and I can't balance the two is going to be so detrimental for my future. How do I get a job with zero experience? Most of my competitors have that experience because they either had assistantships or they work an outside job on top of school. How can I ever pretend to have any worth when I literally have very little worth. I may not have made enough this year to pay taxes…which is devastating because I need information from taxes in order to get future royalties for my work. So I'll be making even LESS money. It hurts every time I realize I lose out on royalties because I'm not in ASCAP.

Maybe I should just drop out so I can be less of a loser and actually have a job. Or maybe if I had two full time jobs over the summer so I could make enough to pay taxes and be slightly less of a loser. But even so, I couldn't balance a real job (as in a job that's at least 9 months a year) with school, so it wouldn't matter. I would be a loser that will be unemployable in the future no matter what.

So how can I have self esteem when I don't have a job/own my house/not married etc.?

[DBTDiva]

Originally Posted by I.Am.The.End.

A lot of my lack of self-esteem comes from not being able to hold a full time job while I'm a full time doctoral student. I had a temporary job last semester that was about 30 hours in a week and I got a week behind in my school work. I can't just go to part time either because my boyfriend and I need to graduate at the same time, or we'll end up apart for a year or so. But you know, everyone else has a job and most have a family at the same time they're a doctoral student. One goes to class during the day and works nights. And I can't even handle 30 hours a week when I'm not married and don't have kids?! And this is when they're FULL TIME students, not part time. I work a full time temporary job in the summer, but to me I don't get paid enough within the year to have value as a person. I just know other people put the minimum amount of work possible in their school work and I tend to be the top of the class because I have all day to do work. But no one cares about grades…it won't help me get a job. Having a job will help me get a job. Being unemployed for so long because I've been a student virtually my whole life and I can't balance the two is going to be so detrimental for my future. How do I get a job with zero experience? Most of my competitors have that experience because they either had assistantships or they work an outside job on top of school. How can I ever pretend to have any worth when I literally have very little worth. I may not have made enough this year to pay taxes…which is devastating because I need information from taxes in order to get future royalties for my work. So I'll be making even LESS money. It hurts every time I realize I lose out on royalties because I'm not in ASCAP.

Maybe I should just drop out so I can be less of a loser and actually have a job. Or maybe if I had two full time jobs over the summer so I could make enough to pay taxes and be slightly less of a loser. But even so, I couldn't balance a real job (as in a job that's at least 9 months a year) with school, so it wouldn't matter. I would be a loser that will be unemployable in the future no matter what.

So how can I have self esteem when I don't have a job/own my house/not married etc.?

That is asking a lot of yourself! I didn't work at all getting my Master's (just half the first semester), I lived off student loans. We had to do semester long internships that were 32 hours a week, some people worked but holy c**p that's a lot of time just being someplace, not even counting READING, not even accounting for studying what you read... Just no. I don't like having $50,000 in student loan debt but it was better than having a complete physical and psychological breakdown. One of my classmates worked 40 hours and came to class, and did the internships, sometimes she wasn't sure what day it was because she hadn't slept in so long. You can't do that with a mental illness, you just can't. I often say that we can achieve whatever we want, but we might have to take a different road and we are going to have some detours. When you're dealing with mental illness you have to cut yourself some slack, we are not going to be able to do things the exact same way as someone who has no depression/anxiety. PhD programs are notorious for giving depression and anxiety to people who have never had issues before. Much more suicidal ideation than students in undergrad or masters level programs. The people you're comparing yourself to are probably not doing as well as you think they are.

Are you writing a thesis? You can't do that on no sleep, no way. You will feel like more of a loser if you drop out!!! What are you wanting to do when you get done with school? Are you younger than the classmates you're comparing yourself to? I got a great job right out of school but I was a decade older than some of my classmates so yeah I have more experience, but they'll probably be making a lot more money in better positions at 25 than I was at that age. Self esteem is internal, it has to be. If it is based on marriage, a job, owning a home, then your self esteem vanishes when those circumstances change or like now before you have them. I had to work on my self esteem and improve it BEFORE I was able to get the great job and buy a house.

I don't actually do a thesis…not in the traditional sense anyway. I compose a piece of music and write a shorter "document" about it. I screwed myself by composing a piece for my equivalent of a master's thesis that went well beyond what most people would do for their doctorate so now I have to do something even bigger somehow, while still doing academic classes, oral and written comps all in a year and a half. The piece has to be written in a year so it can be performed (if I can even find enough people to perform since my last recital was cancelled because I couldn't find enough people).

But by not also having a job at the same time, I show future employers that I'm unable to hold a job consistently and they're not going to hire me without a job history and experience which I don't know how to get. I only had one shot at getting a teaching assistantship and I failed.

And no, I'm not going into any debt. That makes me feel worse actually. I just want to be normal and be able to relate to people, but I have nothing in common with anyone.

All I see is no one who is graduating is getting a job teaching anywhere. And that's the only thing I can do in my field that has the possibility of a steady paycheck. You know, if I'm lucky. Most likely I'd be an adjunct and have to work elsewhere just to eat. A lot of the full time professors I know have a second job and that's when they're FULL TIME. To the point that classes have to be cancelled because something came up in the professor's second job.

May self-esteem comes from internal sources, but I would imagine I would be made fun of and bullied if I had the audacity to have self-esteem. I've never done anything to earn it.

[Bill3]

I've never done anything to earn [self-esteem].

I wonder what you would say about another student who has completed a master's thesis by going far above and beyond what was expected for a doctorate much less for a master's.

@ Bill3
Honestly, I'm just assuming that it went beyond what most people do based on what I've seen others do. Maybe it's equal for some other doctoral projects/theses, whatever you want to call it.

I don't think I'd have any respect for someone else who had as financially as easy of a life as I've had.

Besides, none of that has made me any money, nor will it help me make money in the future. Going above and beyond, being top of the class, etc. has never done anything for me. I'm just tired of being everyone's slave. I was supposed to be paid in October for my involvement in a musical, but no, I was just their slave once again.

I just get tired of how my work and awards makes my school and professors look good but they do nothing to help me. I am everyone's last choice for everything! For example, I'm really good at playing chamber music and one of the graduate groups needed someone on my instrument in order to enter a contest. My name was suggested and pushed for to fill that spot, but no, it has to go to someone that their advisor even thinks needs more experience and skills in chamber music. But they're entering a contest…not just sitting around learning chamber music. Besides, I don't have much chamber music experience. When I was in that ensemble, no one gave a crap about us. As soon as I leave, their advisor actually pays attention to them…this has been my entire life.

No one ever notices me unless I dye my hair crazy colors and wear neon colored clothes. I'm just disposable and I always have been…even though I'm always filling the role other people don't want while other people usually get most if not all the glory. I'm clearly not important in any way. Especially not to the university I'm at. My work has been shown at three conventions/competitions, but does it help me at all at getting a teaching assistantship or a fellowship? No, because apparently they'll never give it to anyone past the first year…something other schools don't do. They'd rather it give it to people who are new who just happen to be born in the right family or whatever. That's what it's all about of course. Who your father is. My dad is well known, but in the wrong industry, so I'm always at a disadvantage.

People on the outside don't understand…you have to have a ton of friends everywhere if you want a chance at jobs, but even my therapist doesn't understand! I don't have the energy or skills to make friends, let alone keep them, so I guess I have to switch industries then? It's too bad it would be such a waste of talent and now money and time at this point.

I just don't see how someone who grew up being treated like trash and who wasn't really allowed to have an opinion or feelings is supposed to just magically have self-esteem especially when they and the person they love is treated like garbage by a lot of people. And just because we're "different" and born into the "wrong families"!

[godog]

I can relate to developing feelings for people that are nice. But I also get that type of relationship anxiety because it's really difficult for me to tell if people are being fake or real.