Am I pretty much doomed?

Well, I should have phrased that differently. My dissatisfaction is with repeatedly meeting girls I like and not being able to date them. Dating a girl I am not attracted to has no rewards. I would just be giving away my freedom and independence for nothing.

Maybe you should just be more open to whom you like to date. Not lower your standards, by any means, just be more open.

If you only want sex and don't want neither girlfriend nor relationship nor romance nor anything meaningful then why are you talking about high standards. Your standards then are on a low side. Not too many intelligent high class girls just want sex. So you are going to just settle for "easy"kind. I am not sure what's this thread about then. It is not that hard to find girls to just hook up, they won't be any good but if you only care about sex then it shouldn't be a problem. Are you having trouble finding someone to have sex with? That might be a topic for a different thread. Not sure how we can help with that

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I'll try to explain this as best as I can.

I am not looking for just sex, but I am not necessarily looking for a committed relationship either. I want to connect with girls I like. I want to flirt with them, impress them, date them and yes preferably have a physical relationship, not necessarily sex. THEN maybe I will develop a desire to have a committed relationship with the girl.

I think you just need to focus on how to talk to girls in a friendly way for now. Other guys get the girls because they talk. They aren't smarter or more thoughtful than you, at least not all of them. The other day I sat with a "friend" of mine in a bar, both of us hold advanced degree in science, but we are both shy. So, we spent the night talking to each other about science, while other guys were talking to girls and laughing with them, probably about silly things. You see. It's an unfair game, you might say, but it's the way it is.

Did they already know these women they were laughing with or just met? Wete they randomly there and guys approached and started laughing? You might be better off talking to friends about science then.

not everyone woman likes to laugh about silly things. If you find a woman who likes science then you two can talk about science. Yes approaching women you don't know and start talking about science might not work but so is talking about silly things! Women are all different. Many don't go to bars and don't talk to strangers there ( even if they went there with a group) etc etc and you have better luck meeting them in a library or advanced class or museum etc

I of course agree that being shy makes it much harder to approach people. Especially people you don't know. No doubt about that.
You might have to go about it differently

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Are you very selective in who you are attracted too then? Have you tried online dating? You can then select based on looks as they would have photos. And you can break ice by talking online first. Even for sociable and outgoing people it's not easy to approach strangers. They might not be available etc

A lot of young men want to explore, and they want to explore with someone they are physically attracted to. Women also have things they look for in men that they find attractive. Not every woman is attracted to body builders for example, I know I wasn't, I liked a man to look natural. Often when I went out with my friends, we each had different types we were attracted to.

It's important that when you develop your sense of women that you "do" learn about "them". You don't want to be a "selfish" sex partner do you? Men like that typically do best with women who get paid to service "them" and like to go to places where they can "pick" a woman that is "their type".
Or, women who are looking for a meal ticket don't "love" but perform sex acts and "act" because they are only looking to "marry well" or gain in some way.

You know, women talk about different men they have been with. They will say things like, don't bother he is all over before you even warm up. They also talk about the guys that are "selfish" sexually and aren't worth it. A woman can pick up on "he is just looking to do me" and they do not welcome these types of men as often these men "are" sexually selfish.

The reason I talked about "how" to engage women in my other post is a woman who is willing to do a favor for you because you are approaching her for help, is a woman who may be more open to thinking, "here is a guy that may not be a selfish partner".

My nephew dated a girl for a long time, they were also good friends and she helped him all through college. She had a nice figure but was on the plain side. He got to a point around your age where he wanted to experience other girls "sow wild oats" so to speak. He broke up with her and began seeing a lot of different girls and ofcourse having sex with them. Then one day he realized that while he was having a lot of sexual experiences with a lot of different attractive girls, there was only that and no interesting close conversations. He finally realized the true value of the girl he broke up with and noticed what he experienced with her was something none of these other girls provided. Well, he had to figure that out, the companionship/friendship and being able to explore with someone that is fun to explore with other then just sexually was missed and he realized "harder to find" then just having sex with a pretty girl.

It is "normal" to want to explore sexually and not be ready for a long committed relationship. And quite honestly, if you are on the selfish side, which is also normal at first, you are less likely to experience "more" than just the "mechanical/physical/self serving". True "intimacy" isn't all about "your" body, not when there is actually another physical presence. We are all designed to develop certain attractions when it comes to having a "desire for sex". Truth is, there is more in that attraction then we realize, as men do look for things in a woman that can produce a healthy child, even if that is not something you are thinking about right now. Women tend to do the same, only women need to look for more than "just" a physical attraction, it is the way they are designed too. Actually, a woman may stay with a man even if that man doesn't satisfy her sexually, if he has other qualities about him that show a devotion and longevity.

It isn't a bad thing that you are recognizing that what you have been doing has not been working out for you. It's doesn't have to mean you are doomed.
What it does mean is you are going to have to actually "learn" more.

My daughter was/is beautiful, and very intelligent and engaging, however, she grew to believe that she was not attractive because guys were not asking her out. It was not until later that many of these guys confessed that they had crushes on her but were afraid to approach her. Does she have a preference in what she is attracted to? Yes, and often she can actually be on the "shy" side when a guy she is attracted to is in her presence. So, you are not alone with hesitating.

Physical attraction is always "there" and to have others tell you that you are shallow for having it, well, it's normal, you will always have certain things that attract you, everyone is like that. My friends were attracted to guys I had no attraction for and visa versa. However, my friends did begin to see the "type" of guy I was attracted to.

It's a part of meetup meetings I attend. People don't know each others before, I guess. Last time a new girl came to the meeting, and she was approached by many guys, and she was engaged the whole meeting with them, at least until I left. I guess girls don't have to worry about this. By silly things, I didn't mean absolutely silly things. Of course not. I meant more casual things.

I approached some girls at first, and once I was a approached by a girl, but then I became more conscious again about talking to girls. Like going to a group of people already talking and I go there to join them, especially if there are girls, is a very difficult move for me to make. All girls will be engaged in talking with other guys.

I still don't understand how to talk to girls in a library or other places. It seems very awkward and maybe creepy.

I like to talk about science, but I can talk in different topics as well. I can be more casual. I was. The only challenge is to approach. In this meetup guys are ready to interrupt of course, which makes me conscious that I need to compete. Which is something I don't like to even think about.

I'll tell you that approaching strangers is awkward for everybody and it does come across as creepy. I agree. I don't actually suggest you do that. I meant you might like type of girls, the ones that go to those places rather than bars. Like a book club maybe. Although I've met some weird people in book clubs. Lol

it's hard to meet people as it is. I've met good friends in meetups, but those are women and I wanted women friends. I had to rely on dating sites to meet a man because where would a 50 year old woman meets a man? I don't go to bars as its not my thing and I don't want men who go to bars and all my social activities and hobbies are all female oriented. Last time someone randomly asked me out was my student's dad. Ugh. Extremely awkward to say the least. And before that man i work with, not gonna do that either, then my principal tried to hook me up with her brother ugh. Awkward!

So I decided online is the way to go. So I've been recommending it to people

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There is nothing "wrong" with what you have stated here. Also, it is understandable that you are not "just" looking for "attractive" but also a certain chemistry, that is what girls look for too. Quite honestly, we are designed that way as there are things within the chemistry itself that is there without our even knowing, it's in the faramones and other unseen things that are a draw from the different sexes that pick up on what could produce a healthy child, even if that is far from what you have in mind.

At 28 your brain is now fully developed and with that you have developed some strong desires to explore, that is what my nephew wanted and finally realized what "is" important to him. Often when marriage happens "before" the brain is fully developed and the individual has "more" understanding of themselves, this time comes where a man and even a woman can want to explore, often this is when most "cheating" takes place, late 20's early 30's.

It is still important to find out what you have that has "worth", how to learn how to increase your worth, as well as how to learn "more" about seeing the needs of a potential partner. The goal is to finally find someone that compliments you and visa versa. You are only doomed if you don't takes steps to "learning". You have taken a step by starting this thread and getting different feedback. Even that is helping you learn things in how you have slowly been identifying what you are really looking for.

I can see you liked my input, well, you like to "learn", now the next step is learning how to "engage" a woman better by asking her things in a different way. That is why I posted that link and gave you an idea about asking for some kind of favor. You like that kind of attention correct? I did not just judge you and then have others thank me for it, well, there are plenty out there that make quick judgements, that doesn't work well for you. Now you have to learn how to engage that aspect in a female you are attracted to and would like to spend more time with by adjusting what kind of questions you ask. You "liked" how I made you feel with my answer right? Well, that is another "important" lesson because you may not remember everything I said in my long post, but liked how it made you "feel". That is something you also need to think about when interacting with women. When you ask them to do something "for you" that is a consideration of their "value" and women do responds to that.

So you can do some research and come up with a list of things you could ask that can give the "woman" the control, that is important because women don't want to hear or feel like you are asking, "hey I need to get laid, you are hot, let's go do it", then even if the woman did agree, what do you know about how to please "her"? Lots of men make that mistake which turns into them being "sexually selfish", and how do you think that makes the "woman" feel? Keep in mind, we always remember how someone else makes us feel.

Question: Do you have the same level of anxiety and everything that goes with it when speaking to a woman you have no intention of dating?


If the answer is "no, my discomfort is considerably less"


Then Question 2: Have you considered dating women casually, as practice runs?


I would suggest trying it, consider these women training wheels, and once you can ride the dating bicycle with more confidence, you can stop dating training wheels.


I mean, as long as you don't lead anyone on, there's no harm no foul. They get the pleasure of your company and you gain the necessary experience....

I don't think I am too selective. I come across girls I would be interested in dating pretty often. However, I have standards and I will not be interested in just any girl who comes along.

Well unfortunately the majority of the girls I find myself interested in are girls I don't really know.. The girls I am socially connected to are so few that the likelihood of me liking one of them is low. With strangers(girls at the gym, the mall, waitresses at restaurants, etc.) there is so much variety, so yes I am much more likely to find girls I like among them.

Online dating doesn't appeal to me because I cannot know before I meet a girl in person that I like her. I feel like it is too much of a hassle to go out with girls you don't like and then have to tell them you don't like them. Plus, most girls on dating sites are looking for a relationship. I want a girl who is dating me because she likes me, not because she is looking for a relationship.

There is definitely more anxiety when I am interested in a girl, because in that case I am concerned about messing things up. When talking to a girl I am not interested in, there isn't as much anxiety, beyond my normal level of social anxiety. But of course it also depends on how she acts. If she puts me at ease I will be more comfortable.

As for the second question, dating isn't really where my problem is. My problem is connecting with girls I would like to date. Dating would be the next step. However, I would actually love to causally date girls I am attracted to physically but not really interested in. Not so much for practice, but more so for the physical attraction aspect. However, very few girls are open to this sort of thing. Most girls would consider it sleazy for a guy to date them just for the physical attraction aspect.

Your daughter sounds like me pretty much. I spent my younger years feeling insecure and thinking I was ugly. I was a social outcast in high school and was taught to have a really low opinion of myself. But over the past few years I started noticing myself getting attention from girls, some of them being really conventionally attractive ones, and I have become more confident in my physical attractiveness. Now I want to enjoy the dating experiences I missed out on in college and people can't stand the thought of someone my age seeking casual non-committal relationships and dating 21 year old cuties. But I will not let them stand in my way.

Problem is, it seems only men are shamed for being "shallow". Women can be as picky as they want about a guy's looks and if any guy complains he is labeled as a bitter misogynist. But if a guy wants women "out of his league" people start calling him a shallow douchebag. In fact, the whole "date people within your own bracket" sentiment is aimed ONLY at men, not women. Men are the ones who generally do the approaching, so women are not effected by such a thing. In fact, this makes it EASIER for women to "date up", because men who are stigmatized for pursuing women "out of their league" are more likely to pursue women below their "league".

Another important thing I want to point out. The biggest source of anxiety for me when interacting with women is the fact that I am constantly trying to avoid coming off as interested and at the same time avoid coming off as aloof and unfriendly. It is very difficult. I think I often end up erring on the side of aloofness/unfriendliness and this probably effects me socially. All this wouldn't be a problem if there wasn't such a paranoid fear of natural male-female attraction in our society. I think my main goal for now is to start erring on the other side instead. For starters, I am going to make a point to start being much more bold with the girl at the gym. Really it isn't much worse for her to think I am creepy than for her to think I am aloof and unfriendly. Right?

Why don't you start by saying "hey" if you are waiting for a machine she is using, or something. There isn't anything creepy about a casual hello or conversation every now and again. Or you could bite the bullet so to speak and walk up to her directly and say something like, "hey, I've been noticing you around the gym lately and wandered if you'd like to get some coffee sometime?" The worst that can happen is that she says no and the slightly awkward feeling of being rejected, but if you're well centered mentally, than you can just brush it off as it's not the end of the world. It's just a little "nah, not interested." It's not like she literally made a spectacle out of you in front of the whole gym.

Good luck!

Honestly if you already know that you only want dating girls just for just physical aspect probably isn't going to happen unless girls are very easy promiscuous type ( that I wouldn't per se recommend) or a paid escort ( don't think you want that). I think in that sense you might be doomed.

You have two options IMHO . Either go for deeper connection with women that would lead to a relationship not just physical aspect as much or go for type of women I described earlier.

Keep in mind girls that only want physical aspect and not a relationship might have more than one partner. Make sure you use protection

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Actually Shadix, women get flack too and told to date people in their own "league or bracket". It is quite possible that girls pull back from you because they feel you may not be interested, this is especially true if you come across aloof. Girls go through gauky stages too, some peak early, others later.

Some men are not as attractive in High School, but with time they can get quite handsome, while the guys that were attractive in HS can get homely and unattractive as they peaked too early.

It is not unreasonable that with your feeling that you have grown more attractive that you would want to make up for when you did not experience the kind of dating that many younger guys enjoy.

First off why should one settle for less? If you are not interested in someone what is the point in trying to date them? That would make me worry more than your current situation. Think about this, any subject or thing. Would you buy a car you didn't like, play a game you didn't enjoy or read a book that was uninteresting (aside from learning something from it) ? The same goes for mates, if not even more critically so. A pastime you can always just quit. A relationship or mate, you can't do so quite so easily. In essence I see no problem in your having a standard of what you like and sticking to it.

I am not one for dating for dating's sake. Dating a woman, for me, needs to be for a reason, I must be interested and want to be with her. There are many I have seen that are dating hoping that one of them is the right one but for me this is the wrong approach. It's just that the ONE that interests you has eluded you up to now.

Does that make you hopeless in finding her or someone that you like? I pose this question: ARE YOU DEAD YET? No, since you posted here, you can't be, I assume so yeah no all avenues, all hope and chances are not lost There is no standard timeline for how long you should take to find the right girl for you and no reason to be in a hurry. The world, your world, your life or anything less will not end if you do not find the girl in x minutes, hours, years... etc.

Be patient, find your own way, enjoy your independence and learn about yourself more... the more you know, accept who you are the more prepared you will be when she finally comes along. No one should judge you for being 28 and single and if they do, that's their problem, not yours.

This is not really what I meant. Sorry, I know it is confusing. I'll try to explain it better.

What I meant was that the physical aspect also appeals to me, not that it is the only thing I am looking for. I want to date girls I really like for more than just the physical aspect. It is more about the emotional aspect of wanting to be with them. Basically think crushes, because that is exactly what I am talking about. When you have a crush on someone you don't necessarily want to settle down with them, but it about more than just physical attraction. However, if there is no crush, I still have a physical sexual desire and I would be interested in casual hookups with girls I find sexually desirable but don't really have feelings for. It wouldn't even have to be sex, merely touching and kissing and even being with a girl can get me excited. Maybe some of you think I am perverted or creepy for this, but I think this is normal and I see nothing wrong with it. I would not lead a girl on or anything like that. And I actually think there are some girls, especially younger ones, who are looking for these casual hookups.

Yes I do think it is likely there are many girls who pull back from me because the get the idea I am not interested. The reason I might come off that way is my social anxiety and fear of expressing my interest. I really do think that society instills a deep sense of shame in us about approaching women.

The main things that changed between high school and now are my physique, social skills and style. In high school I used to be really scrawny, whereas now I work out and have a body type which would be described as very fit and attractive. In high school, I had 0 social skills. I am still somewhat awkward now but wayyyyyyy better than I was back then. I also dress much more in style now than I did in high school.

But unfortunately, society has things set up so that it is very difficult for guys past a certain age, even if they are attractive, to enjoy the same types of experiences that the attractive younger guys typically get to have. This is accomplished through social engineering and the idea is to push people into settling down and starting families by the time they are in their 30s.

Why do you say that? There are a lot of men who are fine with it and do it all the time. I am in the same boat as you but I dont' see it as society doing anything to me, I'm introverted and have a hard time with doing so.

I disagree. Society doesn't matter one bit when approaching any single woman. She is not thinking about your age, your status or anything else on initial looks. Well there may be some of that going on but there is no "social overlord" controlling society's actions or your behavior. This is all a perception thing. When you choose to either act or fail to act on feelings toward a woman, it's purely your choice. No one is coming out of a wall and pointing a finger at you for doing something that this "society" does not see fit.

Society doesn't care about what we do ( unless one commits a crime). Society did not set anything up for anybody or instill any shame in anybody. If you feel deep sense of shame over dating this isn't society's doing at all. You got to figure out why you feel all these things that are your perception only. Nobody cares what kind of things one enjoys at what age as long as you aren't breaking the law.



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I do think that being shy/introverted has a lot to do with it. When I am out someplace, like the gym for example, my natural inclination is not to go and start conversations with people I don't know. It comes naturally to extroverts, but not to us introverts. However, when I see a girl I think is cute, I want to talk to her. But I want to talk to her because I am attracted to her, not because I have anything to say. Anything I do say will be manufactured. And also, I have a real problem coming up with clever things to say. Still not sure if that is because of social anxiety or slow cognitive processing speed, but it really gets in the way. So IF I were to go talk to girls, it will always come off as really awkward. No way around it.

And yes, I think guys are shamed for going and approaching cute girls just because we think they are cute and would like to get to know them. Just a few posts ago people were saying how it is creepy to approach strangers. Creepy means not socially acceptable. Oh and I've been on gender studies forums and talked to plenty of feminists. Their views are even more extreme than you would expect. Many of them consider it "objectification" for a guy to be interested in a girl without first connecting with her on a personal level. In other words, the type of crushes we get on girls we don't really know are objectification and they are creepy and unacceptable.