In serious need of help about my long-term bf

As far as trying to put the story together. I am still giving my subconscious time for figuring out what's causing the change. If I don't know exactly what's going on with the change, and whether it's temporary or permanent, I can hardly take action in a responsible manner.

Of course, even if it is a temporary change, I still can't go on like in the past. That still needs changed.

But one thing I've found from the past is he insulted himself in the same way a good while ago when he was feeling down. He actually was quite vulnerable with me there. (I supported and encouraged him in return....)

I'll have to think more on all this. If anyone has any thoughts on the kind of change in relationships that I've described, I'd be very interested in that, otherwise thanks very much for all the help and support I've been given here.

IMO you are way overthinking this - trying to rationalize his behavior and are looking for something inside yourself that is causing this. It's him.

This person is not someone you should marry. A waste of your time. Time better spent on finding a person who will treat you as you deserve to be treated.

Yes Etcetera1, it confirms my initial thought: he just does not nice a very nice guy let alone a good partner.

It's like you are trying to justify or make excuses for his appalling behaviours by saying 'it's not that bad' or 'there is improvement'. Reading your posts, it just seems a pretty bad relationship where you are the only one trying to put any work in... no wonder you are so angry. But the fact remains, with all your trying, you are just not met.

An average / mediocre relationship is not the norm and is not worth staying in.

Thanks for trying to help more. I felt validated where you said it's him.

I've done my best to only give a description of my observations and not try to assume why he is doing these things. If I am really honest, I don't really know why he is doing any of it. I mean the things he's been doing since the recent change. The things before it, I've managed to understand some of it more, not all of it, for sure. But mainly I blocked it all out before so it's a LOT to deal with and understand now.

By understanding, I do not mean rationalising.

I am also wanting to really understand so I will never end up in another relationship like this if this one is unfixable.


I totally agree that he's not doing much that a good partner would do. And I agree, yes, yes, that he has been doing really appalling behaviours lately.

Again, I'm simply trying my best to describe the behaviours, as I don't actually know what's making him behave like this.

I do not recall ever thinking that he has improved on any of this. My issue is exactly that I am shocked at the change, at how things took a turn for the worse. So, hardly any improvement tbh.

Yes, no wonder I am angry, because I ignored the emotional effect on me for so long so it's a handful (understatement!!) to have to deal with all this now. Especially with the new change making things worse too.

I will respond to this line separately. This is exactly what I have determined myself, and it makes me feel better, and thank you very much for the validation!; but I have to wait for my subconscious to give me more insight on all this, and I am just so impatient having to wait for it. I know I have to know myself more too, I'm doing a lot of work on myself, but I am impatient anyway. And angry, yeah.

Or maybe it is stupid that I'd have to even feel any obligation to wait and understand more. But.....I have experience with having to try and destroy meaningful positive feelings I'd have about someone. I feel extremely tired of the idea of having to go through that right now.

My current goal, as I stated, is simply to understand and orient better about this new change and to keep my anger and reactions under control.

All that needs to be done before I can make any further step.

I will also, again, admit that I find it difficult to break down the image I have of him, that he's just in that category of a ****** person. I would like to understand if the change is temporary or permanent; or if I simply also failed to integrate some of his previously existing negative traits into the image I have of him. I know for a fact that I used to ignore a lot of negatives about people who I would care about. It has bitten me in the arse before and I do not want that to happen again.

So yes, I had to go through this once before, where the person went downhill, due to reasons outside of my control, simply they were unwilling to take responsibility for their life and so on and so on. And I noticed the change too late and it was really bad for me. So then I hate the idea of having to go through it like that again. I would like to be more considered about it now.

And none of that is self-blaming, at all. It's simply me wanting to do things in a decent way, as that will reflect on myself too. And again, I do not want to overreact where he can then try to claim that I'm crazy. For that, I need more understanding and orienting by talking and sharing about what's been happening.

The thing that makes especially hard all this for me is that he has shown a serious willingness to marry me and he did show love and vulnerability before to me, a while ago..... I'm aware that if I tried to date others, some other guys would also be willing to marry me, this has nothing to do with my self-esteem, it's simply the feelings that are hard to deal with for me for now.

But yes, it is very disillusioning that for him the love became just words and not actions, after a while. I am trying to face those feelings, too.

And lastly, yes, I have some empathy even if I do not want to have it anymore, I understand he's depressed, and he'd previously taken responsibility as far as going to the psychiatrist for a prescription. He did CBT too last year but stopped.

And yet things are worse and I do not know if it's the depression not being treated enough or if the big success went into his head.

I do not understand it when a person changes like this. I mean, I can see how certain forms of severe depression (? or whatever it is) can get pretty dark in my experience - had to watch that happen with the other person and that thingy making them being so self-absorbed and downright abusive in the end, emotionally. I never figured out whether that was depression for them or some character fault beyond that. I did cut that relationship off, regardless, but it was a disaster.

Of course, again, dealing with the depression is his responsibility, getting it treated is his responsibility, and all that.

But so yes, it doesn't make total sense to me that it would simply be depression that made him behave in much worse ways lately. That's where I'm also extra mistrustful about his current behaviours and attitudes.

As a sum-up: I would like to see if he will 1) work on himself in therapy or with good self-help or a coach or a support group, and 2) with me in couples therapy. And if not then I'm out of there like there's no tomorrow.

As far as him doing anything tho', 2) I can somehow imagine way more easily than 1), and that's not a good sign to me. And I do not feel ready for 2) if he does not do a little of 1) or if I have worked on myself first enough to be able to respond effectively when he does ethically appalling behaviours if he were to perhaps try and justify them in couples therapy.

----

ALL IN ALL: I do have a lot of thoughts and feelings and absolutely not feeling like it all adds up yet.

Hey @Etcetera1

65 Signs of Emotional Abuse in Your Relationship - Millennialships Dating

read this ^
You say he ran out of pills and then started them up again a couple of days ago. Why did that happen? Was there a drug shortage at the pharmacy>?

How will you know when it all adds up?

Thank you, will be checking this out.

Well, the thing with the pills is..... We were in a foreign country, and when he ran out of the pills, he had new ones mailed to his friend whose wedding we were going to. But then I find out quite a few days later only that he has been putting off talking to his friend about meeting to get the pills from him.

The weirdest ever thing is: We had a terrible argument, as I said, when I was trying to wave that white flag, he ignored it, I got very upset and then he thought I was going to break his laptop and I had to ground him as he got so upset about that.

And then we had a crappy argument but that was less terrible. He snapped at me that I need anger management classes, I tell him I will go happily if he will go with me too, and take them himself. Then we talk about couples therapy. I express I am glad to do this with him.

The argument kinda dies down a bit of time after that.

A few moments later he's just being weird and sad, and he says he feels everything is pointless.

And then a few minutes later he is writing to his friend about the pills and about meeting and going out and doing things with me invited too.

And then he started doing something productive other than video gaming or scrolling his phone all day. He used to do network engineering/coding but he always jumps to a new company when he finds the company too stagnating, and last year he had a big success, and he now feels he can afford not working for a while. Plus he was starting to not like the company either, so he quit a couple months ago.

So when these things happened, I felt like I got a glimpse of his old self.

Which mind you, wasn't great either in the relationship with me, but it's not the new crazy stuff.

So I just don't understand why the horribly big conflict led to him being a bit better. But only for a short time because he still berated me for the blocked toilet later and for getting stranded in the city.

So I'm perfectly well aware that he and/or our relationship is still downhill if it goes on like this. And I don't want to go there.

When I feel it all clicks satisfactorily. When I feel I can start to do deliberate thinking to do an actual, realistic action plan and then I can execute the plan and take action.

Right now, it's all still feeling very dangerous to take any action or make any change. Even if that change is full of good intentions, like it is just me trying to make the relationship better - that is where it started to go so downhill so visibly to me - or try to get him to change anything for the sake of a better relationship, or anything.

I am concerned about him trying to do more manipulative personal attacks on me without warning. And I am already trying to just put my life in order and this would mean I could get traumatised again (I have in the past, I don't mean this relationship, this is a long story and not about this relationship). And I do not want that, I absolutely do not, do not, do not want that risk.

And I do not want to get riled up by him either where he can just go call me crazy or something. I already had him promise not to call me that, but I just don't want to go there again. (That on its own isn't traumatising, but just an example of what bad drama I want to avoid in general.)

I know he can be manipulative, he told me he knows how to rile up people to make them f***k up things for themselves when they are made too angry and upset. But he never tried to do that to me in the past. He only tries to do it to people that he thinks are bad (so he does not do it often. Not excusing him of course). And this relationship has been a long term one. This is part of why I'm so concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etcetera1 Thank you, will be checking this out. Well, the thing with the pills is..... We were in a foreign country, and when he ran out of the pills, he had new ones mailed to his friend whose wedding we were going to. But then I find out quite a few days later only that he has been putting off talking to his friend about meeting to get the pills from him. The weirdest ever thing is: We had a terrible argument, as I said, when I was trying to wave that white flag, he ignored it, I got very upset and then he thought I was going to break his laptop and I had to ground him as he got so upset about that. And then we had a crappy argument but that was less terrible. He snapped at me that I need anger management classes, I tell him I will go happily if he will go with me too, and take them himself. Then we talk about couples therapy. I express I am glad to do this with him. The argument kinda dies down a bit of time after that. A few moments later he's just being weird and sad, and he says he feels everything is pointless. And then a few minutes later he is writing to his friend about the pills and about meeting and going out and doing things with me invited too. And then he started doing something productive other than video gaming or scrolling his phone all day. He used to do network engineering/coding but he always jumps to a new company when he finds the company too stagnating, and last year he had a big success, and he now feels he can afford not working for a while. Plus he was starting to not like the company either, so he quit a couple months ago. So when these things happened, I felt like I got a glimpse of his old self. Which mind you, wasn't great either in the relationship with me, but it's not the new crazy stuff. So I just don't understand why the horribly big conflict led to him being a bit better. But only for a short time because he still berated me for the blocked toilet later and for getting stranded in the city. So I'm perfectly well aware that he and/or our relationship is still downhill if it goes on like this. And I don't want to go there.

Lol as a side bar a favorite e-card I have says “ I need anger management classes? You need shut the F++k classes “

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK. I've thought a lot more about all this. I've read the article from sarahsweets too, thanks for it again @sarahsweets !

I have a question too about it. I've dutifully read through the 65 items of what it is like in an emotionally abusive relationship.

And the question is: What's the main difference between these two items? How do I differentiate between them?

"46. Stonewalling
Your partner ignores you, gives you the silent treatment and refuses to discuss what’s wrong. They keep you guessing and begging for their attention."

"52. They ignore you or stop talking to you for days
This could be while in a fight or even if you’re not fighting. Emotionally abusive partners will often check out of the relationship completely and just ignore you for days even if you’re not in an argument about anything."

Thanks anyone for any response.

I don’t think the distinction between them is all that important; either one is a bad sign for the relationship and you can’t fix either one by just yourself. He has to be willing to communicate for you (both) to have a chance at moving forward.
I would say stonewalling means deliberately ignoring attempts to communicate, and the latter is just not bothering to initiate conversation? Bottom line is neither one is something a person who cares about you would do.

I would say stonewalling has an active element to it, while the second item is more passive, or passive-aggressive. In stonewalling, there still is engagement between the parties, like in the siblings tv commercials where one kid annoys the other by NEARLY poking while saying, "im not touching you!" In the 2nd situation, there would be little or no response to your attempts at normal communication. They ghost you while you are still there.

Interesting that they are both under the same heading in the article.

Whether he is stonewalling or ignoring or even gaslighting you: this is *not* a healthy relationship. And that is all that matters.

To me, stonewalling is about a specific issue or issues; the stonewaller absolutely refuses to discuss those issues, but might behave well so long as those issues are not brought up. Ignoring, on the other hand, is all-encompassing. The ignoring person won't speak or interact about anything at all.

Thanks so much for the answers, this helped clarify.

Based on all this, my partner does a lot of the ignoring, not really the stonewalling.

But I have a sense that he wants to seek my attention as well, by doing this. Does that make much sense?

Frankly? I don't really think I can fix it by myself. I have zero energy or interest for that.

Well one major reason why I'm asking these questions is to try and feel the attitudes he has. Because, I need to know what a healthy vs unhealthy relationship FEELS like. It's a long-standing problem in my life that I am working on.

Youre looking on the wrong side of the street - the GOOD relationships are over there! This side of the street holds Al Capones secret safe - its empty. Nothing to see here. Nothing you learn learn here will help you have a good relationship.

A good relationship is all on YOU. In the sense of say a tennis match. Youre are right now playing with someone who is not playing at the same level as you, for whatever reason. Does the reason really matter? Cant or wont? I used to believe it was "won't" and i just had to break thru something - but honestly, behind their won't is can't.

Where?

I always ignored the negative before. I need to not ignore them anymore.

I am playing like in what sense? I'm not following your train of thought, mind elaborating?

As for the bolded. I'm not the kind of person that tries to "break through" people in relationships. I know what you mean but I'm just not that type.

I think you are already feeling it. It seems you are trying to rationalise his behaviour i.e. engaging your head when you felt sense is screaming 'this ain't right'...

Otherwise, if you felt things were okay or this was a good enough relationship, you would not question anything and the answer would be clear. Your doubts, your 'icky' feeling or feeling something is not, or may not, be right - that is your felt sense. That is the sense alerting you to 'danger'. I would listen to that.

If you are already in therapy, please get a different therapist. If not, therapy would be a good place to help you work through this.

I think a number of people have already told you this person is not treating you well and no amount of ruminating on why will help him be better. Relationships shouldn't be this hard. He is not treating you in an acceptable manner and that is it. You seem like you're trying to make this okay in your mind or find the key that unlocks the "puzzle" that is him. He's not a puzzle. His actions say everything about him.

Okay, so.

I was not asking about whether this person is treating me well.

I was asking very specific questions about existing bad behaviours.

You - or anyone else - can be supportive by answering those questions and by simply letting me try and talk about this relationship on here.

In whatever way I try to talk about it.

If you feel too impatient to answer my questions or otherwise engage with my posts, you are not required to engage.

Thanks much for your understanding.


***

I realise in my OP I asked for advice too, so I will clarify now that I am no longer looking for advice. What I'm looking for is:

- Answers or options for interpretations to my questions I ask.
- A chance to talk about my observations of this relationship. Sometimes maybe about emotions too.
- Any perspectives that do not tell me what to do & and that do not tell me what I'm thinking or what my intention is. I would not like to hear anything like that.

(It's OK to say what you'd do if you were in my place, but just please do not tell me what to do, like things like go to a different therapist or to dump the bf right here and now and so on.)

Thanks much for your description of the felt sense and sense of danger. That was very interesting.

What I'm actually trying to do here is in part getting clarification on what the particular felt sense is that I'm having.

No, I'm not fully feeling all the emotions yet.

And it's hard also when I don't know what a truly good relationship feels like. Like I said this is a long-standing problem in my life that I'm working on.

But I'm also a lot like, I just want a looooong rest from all of it, I totally feel like I want to just withdraw from all emotions about this relationship for a while.

For a while I'll just be fine with periodically reading and picking up on things from relationship books and articles and even posts on here.

And afterwards, perhaps asking more on this thread, but I don't have any new questions or further thoughts about the relationship for now.

Anyway. What I was doing here above was, I asked about a clarification about some bad behaviours from the list on that site. I think all the answers helped me see it better, yes.

Then I asked if it makes sense to use behaviours of ignoring to seek attention.

I'm still interested in whether that makes sense. That's simple curiosity. I realise other explanations and perspectives exist too, so it's not really me wanting to decide that it must be this one.

So like, I don't really have an opinion on that.

I'm mainly just satisfied that I've worked so hard on not getting affected anymore by being ignored by people who I've paid attention to previously. That's something I worked really really really hard about, in the last few months.

There's a lot more things to work hard about. But this was a major thing for me for many years, and not just in this relationship.

It sounds as if you've somehow compiled a list of what emotions you'd feel if you were where you're supposed to be, and now you're working your way through the list making sure you feel the way you're supposed to. Whenever I've tried that, though, it's always turned out that where I was supposed to be, and how I was supposed to feel, depended a whole lot on who was doing the supposing.

In another thread we mentioned "mindfulness" and "starting from where you are". Once upon a time, while in the middle of a rather complicated relationship, it occurred to me that I'd seen/heard quite a few people use the word "centered" to mean (it seemed to me) quite a few different things. What "being centered" turned out to mean to me, though, was experiencing "I love her" and "I hate her" at more or less the same time; not trying to make one of those "right" and the other "wrong"; but instead, as it were, "standing with one foot on each" and seeing what comes next.

If, sometime later, I were to discover that I'd ended up with a checklist that now included "Stand with one foot on each (of whatever it is) so I'll feel centered," my experience then of feeling centered might very well look like standing with one foot on...

"Stand with one foot on each (of whatever it is) so I'll feel centered"

...and the other on...

"Oh, checklists are such BS!"

Ahh that's very interesting that it comes off like that.

In reality, I will admit I have no actual compiled list of emotions that I should be feeling and I don't believe in feeling whatever I "should" feel. If it wants to be felt, so be it. If not, then it's not ready yet to be felt. Or more precisely, I'm not ready yet.

And so I just have the gut feeling that I haven't got through all of them.

But you are right in that I do feel some kind of obligation. That obligation would tell me some feelings are appropriate and some are not.

That's how I often am with people.

And then it's hard to find and feel the "inappropriate" ones.

EDIT: When I talk of appropriateness, I mean appropriate either 1) for the particular, public situation or 2) for the overall relationship. When it's just 1), I find it easier to find and feel the "inappropriate" ones.

That's very interesting. Like, being able to feel ambivalent by having and fully feeling very different, opposing, strong emotions.

I do think I am very bad at that.

Tbh I hate all kinds of messy drama like that, due to certain experiences from the past.

But I do know I do somewhere have very different/opposing emotions that are strong.

I just don't want to be like "split" and feel only one then feel only the other one and keep changing between them like crazy so I try very hard to keep reasonable and realistic, and try to find what attitude and emotions fit the actual situation.

Yes, I've had that thought myself & it makes complete sense. But I can only do this rationally. I cannot do it emotionally. Emotionally it's way way way way more a mess.

Reading Gottman's science of trust book right now.

I can see we are at that point where it would be about to go into that so-called absorbing state of negativity, mutually. (I think I did absorb too much negative before anyway but it wasn't mutual or leading to escalating drama....)

It's supposed to be a state or phase in the relationship where you both start absorbing the negative in the conflict and it'll all escalate and not get fixed, and parties are stuck in it, in the bad drama like that.

Then eventually there can be a point of no return, with too much lost trust and rewritten narrative of the entire relationship story.

It does mention self-regulation (self-soothing) and co-regulation as well and how I see it is, if you can't co-regulate your partner and he/she can't co-regulate you either, and you can't calm down on your own either, when away on your own, then it's bad.

And it mentions that mostly for men, if they suppress the expression of negative emotion during the conflict, they'll find it hard to calm down. Unfortunately, while not a man, that's part of my problem here.

In those recent, worse conflicts, we did co-regulate each other some, with rational approaches too, the problem is that I did not ask for it or express any emotion for one problem that I'm hung up on.

I still have not been able to talk about it with anyone. But I feel closer to being able to now, but it's still impossible for me to imagine talking about it.

I've oriented myself about what he really was doing with *that*. I sorta get it now. I still do not know however how to orient about it inside myself. Other problems in life have taken my focus off it for now so that's helped but I will still have to deal with this.

Right now the plan is, I've been given a reference to a couples therapy site, and it looks great because it says the work starts with laying down the foundations for each party separately before working together.

That's exactly what's needed here.

I just don't know if I could talk about "the problem" there either. If I can trust they keep it confidential in a one-on-one talk, then maybe.

I'll respond to this again. I think my internal state is characterised better as a state of extreme detachment and avoidance standing right at the point where it's probably very, very dangerous to go on from in some directions, hence waiting to be oriented first. Wanting to find in time where the danger is, because it's all opaque now.

Couples therapy with the approach I've just described sounds and feels right to me. I'm like, I'm completely *unwilling* to move in any direction unless I can go through that route first.

Thanks everyone for letting me talk about it here and reminding myself of this very important point.