Grieving my marriahe

I have always said, I don't believe in men's work and women's work, there is ONLY work.

As the youngest in an alcoholic home I often was asked to make meals while the older ones looked after farm responsibilities.

When I got older, I became the person to assume farm responsibilities. I left from working on the family farm at 20, and went into residential construction, mining, forestry, and eventually university. I don't mind working.

I never saw my wife as entitled, but I think she is sheltered in some ways. As my oldest said, "Mom has no idea how much anything costs. Anything that went wrong with a car or with the house, you just did it."

I have a first cousin who used to work in private practice as a counselor, who has taken a public sector job in the last 10 years. Yesterday I had a counselling appointment with my counselor, and called my cousin last night to talk through a couple of things the counselor said during my session.

I have always viewed my wife as a very, very deeply good, moral person. I carry so much guilt for things I did wrong that have injured her.

Yesterday my counselor said, "But did you though? Did you actually injure her? She found out you had been viewing pornography after turning to her repeatedly and saying you needed physical contact, affection, and a sexual relationship. She felt no need to meet you on those things. You shocked and probably did injure her, but 10 years later she was still playing that same card. It was the way to not have expectations on her. Then when she and your father had their ridiculous falling out over religious convictions, she used your reasonably strong response to your father as another means to manipulate you. She instilled guilt for not 100% backing her. There was always, always some reason to be angry at you, and hurt, despite everything you have done for her and your kids, and she used that anger repeatedly to divert expectations from herself."

Last night I phoned my cousin. I told her my wife had texted me multiple times last week and again this week, and that it instills almost panic in me. She said, "You do realize you've been manipulated for a long time, right? It is one thing for a partner to accept a lot of responsibility due to illness or other circumstance, but accepting so much anger and being told all the time your contributions weren't enough is manipulation. There is nothing you've asked for or expected for yourself from your partner. She knows how to elicit a response from you. She knows your buttons. As time goes on, and as financial realities hit her, as the kids have less and less contact with her, the narrative she has told herself and that her friends supported, that she is a powerful independent woman and a beloved mother will start to fall apart. She will become desperate. Her attempts to elicit a response from you will increase. Her attempts to bribe the kids to be with her will increase. She doesn't accept the reality that they have chosen you, which also means she is somewhat delusional. She will escalate things in the months to come."

TODAY, my oldest talked about the rampant manipulation he saw his mom perpetrate on me, and how he truly does not view her as a good person.

So.... What if I'm wrong? What if she was never a very good person, or hasn't been for a lot of years? What if she really was deeply manipulative of me and that was her primary goal with the guilt that has been heaped on me for years.

RDM

What a scary, and frankly, judgmental response from a supposed counsellor.

Really, viewing pornography is no big deal? Have you considered how demeaning and deeply damaging it might be for someone who might have confidence and/or insecurity issues and goodness knows what sort of other past baggage to have their partner lust over porn?

And, because you needed physical contact and intimacy, she should have caved in and given you what she did not want (or could not) give you?! Is she simply an object of pleasure and if she does not satisfy you, then she is in the wrong & it's okay to watch porn? How about you both see things from her perspective, and meeting her where she needed to be met, instead of demonising her.

Instead of placing all the blame at her feet, maybe you could look at how you were a participant in that dynamic between the two of you.

I've seen this counselor for 5 years.

This is the first time she's questioned my feelings of guilt.

I have shredded myself with guilt, and thought all the things you said, for 10 years.

And my wrongdoing was ultimately the ONLY topic of discussion.

If I said, please, you need to work on drinking less, please, can we look at family counselling, can you address the stuff the kids have seen with, or address the, literally, hundreds of nights of degrading anger from her, it was all beaten with, "You looked at pornography."

Every topic ultimately came to that.

Her berating anger to our oldest,her reckless driving with kids in the car, everything was beaten with, "You looked at pornography."

"How about you both see things from her perspective, and meeting her where she needed to be met, instead of demonising her.

Instead of placing all the blame at her feet, maybe you could look at how you were a participant in that dynamic between the two of you."

I did. I spent years in counselling, five with this one counselor.

Her perspective was the only perspective.

I accepted my guilt completely, and my wrong was the only measure of me for years. Nothing else.

You're quick to question the professionalism and ability and knowledge of the therapist I've been seeing. Ok. What if she's right? My wife didn't have an expectation on her to keep a regular schedule, be present for the kids, contribute income, contribute to household chores. Whatever she offered I thanked her for it.

But when I said, the oldest is really hurting, and you do treat him differently in important ways. Please talk to him. You need to be around more. You can't be on the phone for hours every night in a locked room. The kids need you around. I'm working from home during covid and the kids are in online school.
Can you be up before noon to help. I'm working full time and renovating the house around your sleep schedule. I can't keep up with the chores too. it was countered with, "Well you looked at pornography."

I believe I deeply hurt her. I also now question if this was also used to be manipulative.

What if?

From what you share your wife uses that one example to control you and avoid taking any responsibility for her own short comings.

From an outsiders perspective it’s possible you deeply hurt her and she’s also manipulative.

She may know nothing else other than being manipulative, it might not be a thought out thing with her, but rather a reaction she has little control herself over.

Whether or not she is a good person is almost moot. She has not treated you or the boys well, and yes, she has been very manipulative and deflects all responsibility for any issues between you onto you.

You get all the blame, despite all your efforts to help her, to appease her, to be there for her, to support her, and to do more than your fair share of the household duties. That had gone on for years, but I think you maybe excused or explained away her behaviors because of her physical ailments and down position in life.

And now, your boys don't want to be in her presence. They see her manipulations and poor treatment of you AND them. They see that she is toxic and they stand by their father.

And, you, with a heart of gold, have been SO understanding of her and have tried SO hard to get through to her, all these years.

Is she a bad person? Well, she is certainly very toxic to the family. And she has caused harm. Whether that is deliberate and consciously malicious or not, it's hard to know, but that should really say it all and is all you really need to know.

Hey RD, just wanted to offer more support.

The things you post feel so familiar to me. It sucks.

The more I've learned about covert manipulation, the more it becomes the lens through which I watch him. I see it now, where before he got the benefit the doubt.

Reading a book right now that's a psychological study of passive aggressive behavior. When they started their study they realized that everyone can identify it (particularly where a pattern exists) but few clinicians have much awareness of it because they perpetually give the benefit of the doubt. We aren't to blame for their maladaptive behaviors that are loaded with plausible deniability that they use in their favor. And we shouldn't feel badly because we operated from a place of love.

I ask myself often if he was always like this and have come to the conclusion of yes and no. He's always used maladaptive behaviors, but earlier on, he probably didn't have to resort to them as much. It gets worse as life becomes more complex.

Her cop out answer about you looking at pornography is exactly that. It's a shutdown answer. My husband has his own versions of this, things that will automatically stop a discussion because now there's nothing else to say. It basically kills the relationship because problems are never worked through and thoughts are never validated.

I've also thought a lot about the whole relationship being a lie, but that's very black and white thinking. He's definitely been less of a husband than he should have been, but my damage from childhood allowed it. Overall it doesn't negate the experience of my life. It hurts though. But the only comfort now is learning and growing as a human being. Hopefully it's not too late in life to do something productive with the knowledge.

Hang in there, RD. Hopefully brighter days are ahead, but for now one day at a time.

@Have Hope

Thank you for that clarification!

I was wrong to say that the way I did, questioning if she is a good person.

I honestly believe she IS a good person.

I don't know that she does what she does consciously. I also think she has surrounded herself with people who she is negatively influenced by, and concurrently and progressively lost contact with people who said, "That's not OK."

Before the pornography issue it was a threat to just divorce. Any discussion where there was a real issue, like.... A total lack of physical affection.... Sometimes in excess of 12 months at a time with no affection.... Resulted in a "We should just get divorced" comment.

Later, the topic became my pornography viewing.

Later again, it became, "You didn't support me against your father completely. Why didn't you cut ties with your family and protect me from them?"

I never wanted to be divorced, so I backed out of those conversations. I was guilty for viewing pornography so that topic resulted in me backing off from any discussion or expectation, and I felt she was vulnerable (and my father was wrong) in the argument with my parents so I felt guilty for not doing even more than I did, so whenever that was thrown at me I backed down.

Now she is continuing to say everything she is going to take from me, and my gut reaction is to relent.... Just give her what she wants and try to have peace.

Again.... I believe she is a good person. An unwell, injured person. I honestly don't want to contribute to more injury.

Right now she is deeply injured that we tried to sell the house last week.... After 5 months of her telling the kids we were divorcing, she is deeply injured because I acted on it. I was supposed to wait for her.

She is threatening lawyer and court all the time. If the kids voice mom was loud, insulting to me, insulting to them, drank alcohol a lot, didn't maintain any kind of schedule, went out with her friends regularly, and they are scared to drive with her, it isn't going to be me who looks bad.

I am STILL trying to protect her from herself with some of this stuff.

See, you are marking her “good” or “bad” as a whole.

How about she’s a bad person - for you and your children.

It ain’t working and hasn’t been. You still ruminate over the past. It’s over. She’s not interested. Let her go.

I'm going to have to think about that.

I don't have an issue with viewing someone as an overall good person.

I'll think about what you said.

Letting go of a long term relationship, home, finances, is all easier said than done.

I'm not where I was a month ago, for sure. I'm some darn scared of what's ahead.

I fully understand this - even when they're unhealthy and toxic for you, it can be difficult to let go. It's also difficult to accept the reality of the person.... when you thought differently of them, hoped differently of them, and when you built your life around them.

Your emotions will evolve & progress over time. In a year's time, I bet you'll be feeling very differently.

Theres a few things I'm struggling with right now.

I have a very, very large extended family. The community I'm from, both my parents have roots there for four generations.

My wife was wonderful about getting to know all my family and extensive interconnections with friends and neighbors.

But together we chose a location where we could travel, in a day, to visit family. We purposely chose a location where we could see family but we weren't overwhelmed by them.

I'm looking at this situation now.... My future is in a place I'm not from. I don't have many deep friendships here. Back "home" it's still different. I can visit and see family and lifetime friends and we pick up right where we left off. My kids are taken in like their own wherever we go.

Being here, on my own, feels damn lonely even with the kids with me. I'll never know someone again like I knew her.


The other thing is, my wife feels profound hurt from me for umpteen things. Like I said, she begins at the conclusion, that I hurt her, then she works backward to find the way I did.

There's really something wrong with her thinking, but I think she ultimately truly does feel like I wronged her.

Like her birthday.... Flowers, card, gift, meal... Oldest didn't want to be there. I'm at fault for not bringing the family together and she's hurt/angry at me.

That's messed up, but I still don't want her to feel hurt, or to hurt her.

But, she keeps threatening things with this separation. In the next two weeks the lawyers will be advised; she drank alcohol in significant quantities daily, she did not manage her health conditions, the kids won't drive with her, the kids have heard her threaten me with divorce for years, the kids have seen her stand over me curse me out and berate me repeatedly, she was verbally and emotionally terrible to our oldest, and the kids refuse to live with her.

This WILL mentally and emotionally destroy her. I will be the "cause" of all this pain. I have to disclose all this to get a fair settlement and custody.

I carry so much guilt for ever hurting her, now I'm going to do more.

Isn't that codependent as heck?? I'm scared of her being hurt for the repercussions of her own actions.

You are never going to have control over how your wife feels.

You even try to think for her. Instead of reliving the past and anticipating all the reactions she’ll have in the future, start living in the present for yourself. I’ve said before I don’t think your therapist is helping you progress out of this relationship. Your goal here should be detachment and ultimately indifference. You seem to be living her life in your mind.

It also seems like the more you concentrate on what she’s doing, feeling, drinking, the less energy you have to work on what you can control-yourself and your own future. Work on becoming a healthy person for your own sake.

Yes, it's the codependency in you. Please try to place your own well being and your children's well being first. For a codependent, this can seem impossible.

You are concerned about her hurting, yet it's true that she has done this to herself. You are not to blame for any of her own behaviors that have caused issues for her. You are looking out for yourself and your children, as you should be.

Codependents have a LOT of trouble with self love, self acceptance and self care. This is where your personal growth and inner work exist.

Learn to love and accept yourself.. learn to appreciate ALL that you DID do for her over the years. Learn to not take her blame and finger pointing at you.

Be objective about her, if you can.

Stand back and view the situation from 10,000 feet high and observe yourself and her objectively.

Would you counsel a close family member or best friend, if they were in your shoes, to not accept her blame?

Would you view yourself as a good husband, who tried his very best to support, provide for and love his wife as best as he possibly could have, mistakes and faults aside?

Sure, we all make mistakes, we all falter and we're not always at our very best, but this is human and we must accept where we may falter or disappoint and still believe that we did the best we possibly could have.

Give yourself a very large and healthy dose of self compassion, understanding and love..... learn to love yourself, for all that you are, because you are a wonderful human being who doesn't deserve all this blame and accusation from your ex/wife.

Please go easy on yourself.... you can feel compassion for her, yet still have the understanding that you don't deserve what she dishes out to you.

Thank you.

This forum is my way of detaching.

I don't want to slander her to anyone, and coming on here is my 10,000 ft view.

When I post here it's because I became emotionally overwhelmed and I'm thinking through it without talkjng to anyone we know.

I've maxed out my insurance so no more counselling for me.

She's pushing forward with lawyers and threats, so a lot of time and money is going to start going there.

My goal is to post increasingly less frequently and become more self contained.

If counseling is no longer available, you can still find helpful people to speak (or text) with at listening lines such as www.caringcontact.org, 908-232-2880, text "heart" to 741-741.

What makes this a goal for you at this time?

Posting on here isn’t detrimental to you. Worrying about how this or that affects her is detrimental to you. She’s an adult. She’s not a helpless creature she pretends to be.

Not sure what you mean by “slander”. Slander is making false statements. Are you making false statements? If not then it’s not slander

Why are you saying you are going to hurt her? By doing what? You aren’t forcing her to drink, be rude, be lazy, mistreat her kids, drive reckless and treat people like crap in general. How is it you are hurting her? Isn’t she who’s doing all these things? Not you?

What do you mean by “threatening” separation. It’s not a threat. She moved out so she is technically separated already. Just not legally. It sounds that perhaps she wants to make it legal now. How is it a threat? It’s a normal progression with separation, not a threat, unless I am missing something?. Do you just want living apart without separation and divorce? Why? Do you hope she’ll come back?

If I or any of us are not helping, please let us know how we can help you better? You should feel comfortable in coming here to post and vent as much as you need and want. No need to censure yourself, or guard yourself. You should be able to vent your feelings and get supportive feedback and constructive advice, as needed or asked for.