Trying to move forward

So far you are gaining ground in slowly recognizing your self worth. Yet, from time to time you will have those down days because you are realizing that you placed value in a person that never deserved it. You are only human, and not the first to make this kind of mistake.

Yes as your thread title states, it is a kind of grieving and trying to move forward

It's not down days because she never deserved my effort. Early on, we were far more of a team and accomplished a lot together.

Someone told me about how with a covert narcissist, the "mask will slip". Someone on this forum told me, when someone shows you who they are believe them.

Looking back, there were different periods of "WTF just happened?" And then things would go back to normal.

Over years the WTF moments became closer and more frequent, and the good moments became more rare.

When I interact with her it's almost like I have a startle response. I think it is from years of being on edge and having to defend myself often.

I also go through periods of questioning my reality regularly, because I really ignored and smoothed out a lot of erratic behavior and thinking for a long, long time.

I think the trend has been to label people with NPD and decide abuse is taking place when it’s more complex and not so back and white.

I think individuals with ADHD get labeled as bad narcissists when while some behaviors can be narcissistic, it more complex and many behaviors are due to how their brain is wired.

I think your wife’s struggles and behaviors may be due to a combination of her ADD and how she is abusing alcohol along with a group of toxic friends that are encouraging her to see you as a bad person and the solution is divorce and get money they tell her she is entitled to and live a new life.

Mixing alcohol with the ADD wired brain can result in exhibiting different mood swings that can at times be very cold and angry and confused states making the already challenging ADD worse.

Remember, alcoholism has many narcissistic behavior patterns to it. And Both alcoholism and ADD have problems with time and memory.

It’s important to keep in mind that ADD/ADHD is hereditary. Knowing behavior patterns and challenges if a person/child that may have ADD anxiety etc, is important as individuals can be taught how to better manage their challenged areas so they can function better and understand themselves better. You want to prevent self medicating as that just adds more dysfunction.

People who self medicate with alcohol when they have ptsd, ADHD or bipolar or other disorders only make their challenge worse.

We're not supposed to attempt to diagnose on here. That being said, if you see NPD traits in your ex, in addition to BPD, wow, what a combo.... toxic, toxic, toxic, toxic.

You became conditioned to accepting her behavior, despite your WTF moments. I became conditioned to accept my ex's own abusive behaviors, because he tried to normalize them. I have determined that my ex is most definitely NDP, without a shadow of a doubt.

That's just normal fighting between couples, he would say, and everyone fights like that. NO. Not knock down, drag out fights that involve insults, gaslighting, yelling and demeaning, intimidating comments and behaviors. NO. And NOT fights that last for hours on end. And NOT fights that are instigated simply over an innocent seeming question!!!

Once you learn more about what is actually HEALTHY between two people in a relationship, you will more clearly see the stark contrast between that and what you had.

I understand about not wanting to diagnose anyone. I still haven't looked at the ADD ADHD stuff that was suggested.

I'll say, this very closely matches my life.

What is described above is a partner that doesn’t want their spouse to have any power. Divorce is threatened many times as a way to maintain control and keep a partner under control.

IMHO once that dynamic takes place let them go.

I can see how if a woman never had a healthy close relationship with her father she would insist on control and never have a healthy relationship.

Similarly if a man experienced an unhealthy narcissistic mother he may very likely take that out on his wife. (Something you should talk about with your sons)

The threats of divorce came from two directions.

1. She hates herself and we'd be better without her. I felt vulnerability in those times, I felt she was in pain.

2. I've done something and deserve it.

People who abuse alcohol ARE gaslighters.

Hanging out in bars/clubs and engaging in drinking and looking for “supply”is not healthy. Often it leads to experiencing many failed relationships and gaslighting themselves into believing they are the victim. Their life revolves around their addiction to alcohol. Yet, they think it’s ok to accuse others for having the problem. They often continue to return to the snake pit club life finding creative ways to make it sound like that is not what they are doing. Again, gaslighting.

From what you share, this is the direction your wife and her new drinking buddies are heading just gaslighting themselves into thinking it’s life changing in a positive way.

I am just questioning how advertising yourself on Facebook and hanging out at bars/clubs consuming alcohol is going to lead to something actually productive other then becoming a pick up for someone who is looking for a quick ego fix.

If you think about it further, both those on your list are ways she emotionally manipulates you. She does this with her children too. No matter what you and your children did, it was never enough. That is why you and your children suddenly felt unsafe when your wife just showed up.

When you are in a relationship with a self involved person you end up feeling like nothing you do is good enough. The environment is always about them and their needs being met. They are the constant cry baby that everyone has to tip toe around.

The only way to change this is indifference. If you were trained to be codependent, you feel this is cruel. It’s not cruel, it’s is allowing yourself to have boundaries.

One of my wife's new friends talked in front of our daughter about how much fun it was to be on dating apps because of the constant positive attention you get.

She also said, Men will do things for you, and you don't even have to give them anything, its just the hope of them getting something.

This is what "empowered and independent" looks like to them.

Anyways, I'm healthier when I don't think about her.

A very selfish inappropriate thing to say in front of an impressionable young 13 year old.

This is a time when your daughter should be exposed to theater and the arts and nature. Your daughter should be exploring different things to see if there is something she might want to do in life.

Kathryn Hepburn exposed herself to swimming, golfing, theater and met all kinds of interesting people.

Your daughter should not be seeing her mother drunk and “hanging out” with friends that talk like that. Nothing to aspire to.

Gross.

That's not far from wanting to be a sugar baby.

Good you recognize the peace and health of putting her out of your mind.

(Hug)

Yuck. Gross. How sad... I agree, you're healthier not thinking about THAT person.

So.... how does someone become ''indifferent''? I was trained (forced ) to be codependent (to stay alive )....I actually feel ''indifference' is cruel. That person does indeed sound overly ''needy'' and a ''cry baby'' etc. I'm still not sure that being ''indifferent'' is healthy either though.... Anyway I have not ''mastered'' that ''art''...

ETA but yeah... sometimes No Contact is required with a terminally Self Involved person Their ''neediness'' and constant manipulative and cruel mind games are ''exhausting'' .... at best.... It's hard not to be ''angry'' at such Selfishness...

Toxic/self centered people need all the attention to revolve around them. They learn to manipulate others emotionally to get a sense of power. They don’t have the ability to sit and listen and comfort. They only know they have to learn techniques to pretend they care, but it’s an act and they find it exhausting and boring. They are the ones that are indifferent. And they have these toddler meltdowns until THEIR needs are met. You must be attentive to THEIR needs, otherwise they have varying meltdowns.

HOWEVER, if someone is ADHD, they genuinely struggle due to how their brain is wired this is on the autism spectrum and there is a genuine struggle within self as they can get overwhelmed. ADHD doesn’t mean stupid, but instead it tends to present as disorganized and tendency to get overwhelmed, impatient, and bored. Yet, these individuals can get hyper focused and work on something for hours until it’s accomplished. This is often confused with manic episodes when it’s not.

Once alcohol abuse/addiction is added, everything revolves around the constant self medicating with alcohol.

If someone is emotionally manipulative, they are maladaptive and the only way to break free is learn how to not react and become indifferent. They are lost if they can’t emotionally control.

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One of my wife's new friends talked in front of our daughter about how much fun it was to be on dating apps because of the constant positive attention you get.

My wife's new best friend also said, Men will do things for you, and you don't even have to give them anything, its just the hope of them getting something"

This was stuff friend said, in both cases, not my wife.

My wife didn't push back against these comments though.

Once our daughter heard this stuff and repeated it to me, I told my wife that woman wasn't welcome in our home anymore. She could let her know or I would. I also said, our daughter doesn't go anywhere with the two of you, because this woman talks like this in front of daughter.

That was at least a year ago.

ADHD is inherited so if a parent has it there is a high percentage their child may inherit it. That’s why learning about it and paying attention to your children is important.

I am extremely grateful to individuals who want to know the why behind behaviors and challenges. Their ongoing study and discoveries have led to important changes in how to help those who struggle. There are many individuals that struggled and have finally gotten diagnosed in their 30’s and 40’s.

I believe you, I have come across women like this. They are users and will take advantage. Glad you put your foot down.