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  #51  
Old Mar 28, 2023, 07:12 PM
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ArmorPlate108 ArmorPlate108 is offline
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Dr. Carter also focuses a lot on healing and moving forward.

ETA: RD, I've been debating about whether to post this, and decided to on the off chance that it is helpful to you. Take it or leave it as you please.

There's a book titled Stop Walking on Eggshells. It deals primarily with borderline personality, and it might be relatable to your situation. However, as I recall, it had quite a bit of information and considerations regarding divorcing an abusive cluster b. It might give you some ideas on what types of things she might try, and what you might need to do to protect yourself and your children. It was a while back that I read it, but it seems like the big concern was that the abusive borderline coerces the situation to make it seem as thought they are the victim and the true victim is the abuser.

Last edited by ArmorPlate108; Mar 28, 2023 at 08:52 PM.
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  #52  
Old Mar 31, 2023, 07:56 AM
RDMercer RDMercer is offline
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Struggling yesterday and today.

There are basic things, little things, that go way back for her and I. There's a genre of movies we've always really enjoyed, there are things we did to mark the change of the seasons, sayings that have a history and mean something within our home. I just wish I had her to share those things with.

It mattered to me to have those things with my partner. I love my kids, but I miss adult interactions. They happened so rarely with my wife, but the good ones were really good.

Something that has changed, and that is hard to explain...

I always felt like I was overwhelmed, like I was in over my head, like I needed someone to take some of my responsibilities from me, like I needed someone almost to save me. That feeling is greatly reduced, practically gone these days.

I don't know why.

Someone better kick my ***** before I try texting her.

RDM
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  #53  
Old Mar 31, 2023, 09:28 AM
Bill3 Bill3 is offline
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Grief can be very hard...but it helps with healing and moving forward...

Quote:
I always felt like I was overwhelmed, like I was in over my head, like I needed someone to take some of my responsibilities from me, like I needed someone almost to save me. That feeling is greatly reduced, practically gone these days.
When you live with someone who has an alcohol use disorder, and/or strongly narcissistic traits, you are informed every day that you are not good enough. Every day.

When you are freed of that person, you can start to realize "Hey, I can actually do stuff! Maybe I am good enough after all!"

You always could do stuff, and you always were good enough, but being told the opposite daily, by someone close, insidiously tends to make you start to believe the opposite...
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  #54  
Old Mar 31, 2023, 11:14 AM
RDMercer RDMercer is offline
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Hmph....

So feeling constantly overwhelmed and like I needed to be saved may have been because I was always told whatever I did or contributed wasn't good enough....

Hmph..... I need to think on that one.
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Bill3
  #55  
Old Mar 31, 2023, 11:32 AM
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((RD)) right now you are facing some challenging realities and truths you tried to avoid facing. The truth is that you never really had an adult partner. That is what is missing when a person is codependent and is manipulated into enabling.

Your children had been expected to also be codependent and enablers. Your oldest reached out for help because he knew there was a need for adult intervention. This is what individuals that meet at Alanon meetings talk about. They express how lonely it is and how tired they are being the codependent and not really having an adult partner. You are not the only one that really loved someone that could not be an actual responsible adult partner.

Most that I met really loved their partner and they got to the point where they were emotionally exhausted. I went to a family marriage counselor who met with both me and my husband together and also separately. My child was just beginning her teen years at the time. This counselor told me that my husband had the maturity level of about a 13 year old. This counselor told me that he would push my buttons to mother him and that I had to stop allowing him to do that. I felt like a single parent with two teenagers longing for an actual adult partner.

The thing about alcoholism/addiction is the constant blaming of others and pushing buttons to be mothered/parented. Yet, at the same time being controlling. Your daughter struggling with anxiety is an unfortunate result when a child grows up with an unbalanced and unpredictable parent. Your daughter in her own effort to fix this challenge is very vulnerable to developing an addiction as well. I have seen this at Alanon meetings where both parents got sober and were dealing with their children who became addicts.

I tend to try to be cautious when someone presents with confusion like you because I know the person loves their partner and is looking for a way to fix the problem. I know the person first needs to understand what they have been dealing with before being told to leave their partner.

You do not have the perfect family. I know you wanted it so badly. The truth is hard, I know, but you are facing the reality of the dysfunction. This leads to wanting another adult to help. This does not mean you are a failure. Seeing realties can get overwhelming and yes lonely. There is no quick fix, and the journey forward is not an easy one. You will have these days where you grieve how what you wanted was not real and did not happen. Believe me there are others who suffer the same way.

What you really need is a therapist that specializes in what you are facing that becomes that adult presence you are craving as you try to be the adult presence for your children. It’s especially upsetting when the children need to completely distance from a parent.

It’s ok to sit and write out what you are feeling. It will help you see that you at times still cling to the illusion of what you wanted that is not going to be. It’s also ok to desire an actual adult partner and ever so slowly realize how long you had wanted that and went with out.
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  #56  
Old Mar 31, 2023, 12:03 PM
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ArmorPlate108 ArmorPlate108 is offline
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Bill3, very well said.

My perspective is it's like there's constant drama around them that engulfs you. And you take blame and responsibility for whatever isn't right. Then, when you remove the drama, you realize life isn't really very hard after all. It was them that made mountains of molehills and projected it on you.

I feel for you, RD, I also miss having an adult companion, but you probably also realize that you can no longer have those moments with her. Sometimes i think of DH as two different people, and while the old one had some underlying dysfunction, he had some very good qualities too, and we had some good times. Now, he's a different person. Something changed for reasons that may never be understood. Anyhow, guess what I'm trying to say is that you can cherish those memories and grieve what you've lost. It wasn't a lie, but rather it's morphed into something less healthy.

(Hugs). Stay strong.
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  #57  
Old Mar 31, 2023, 12:42 PM
RDMercer RDMercer is offline
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Thanks everyone. This is really insightful. And something surprising happened today.

I'm off work today, running for Dr appointments, dentist appointment, DMV for driver license photo, etc.

On the way I bumped into the ex wife of an old friend. She asked about kids and family, and I filled her in on my situation. So then we made plans to hook up later tonight, no strings attached.


I'm Kidding!

She and he parted on good terms years ago and each moved on and remarried.

I told her my situation and that the kids are with me. She said she wasn't surprised, and that she knew it wasn't what I wanted.

?????

What do you mean not surprised??

Well.... She had a pretty cushy deal. We all saw it, and she still wasn't happy. You looked after kids, and house, and cars, and meals, and her, and you worked at everything. She never worked much and never held a job for long, and she just seemed like she was always looking for something more. Did you guys ever do Love Languages? Mine is time, I want my husband's time. That's why me and first husband spilt up, he had endless hobbies he pursued on his own. Well, she would have checked most of those boxes. She wanted your time, she wanted lots of affirmation, she wanted lavish gifts. I think she wanted status without responsibility, like to marry rich or something. And RD, that just isn't you. You're just down to earth and look after everyone and everything. We all saw everything you did for her and your kids. And you were her only long term relationship so she didn't even have a comparison to make and couldn't appreciate what she had. She had a good life, with good kids, in a nice home, with a husband who contributed a lot at home and made a good living. Maybe she'll find what she's looking for but it doesn't reflect on you. What does she think dating looks like at our age? How much time, interest, and commitment do you get from someone who already has a life without you? It took me 7 years of dating to find someone else, and I hated every minute of it. Good luck to her. You were the solid one and at least your kids are old enough to recognize that.

Holy ****. I was stunned. My friend and this woman split up about 10 years ago. We used to see them all the time, but only cross paths with her maybe a couple of times a year since they split up.

I couldn't believe how she assessed that, and just volunteered all that info in a span of a few minutes.

RDMercer
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  #58  
Old Mar 31, 2023, 12:56 PM
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You think you had things hidden but other people tend to see the real picture.
  #59  
Old Apr 01, 2023, 06:17 AM
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Someone on here had told me once or twice "let the side of you that wants to save yourself... win".

That struck a significant chord with me and has stayed with me throughout my own separation and divorce. And I think it could also help you, in the moments of nostalgia and longing... those feelings don't just disappear overnight, but in time, you will see that saving yourself and your kids is the best decision you will have ever made. You don't need "someone" to save you - you need to save yourself.
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  #60  
Old Apr 01, 2023, 06:20 PM
RDMercer RDMercer is offline
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While I appreciate the openness and vulnerability of your statement, I'm not there yet.

I'm not that interested in saving myself. I'm interested in being able to give the kids a good home,and to look after some aging family, and to be emotionally available to people I love. But saving myself, for MY sake, isn't in my thoughts yet. I've reached a point of having short term things I look forward to. I'm not able to look long term positively yet. Once I start really moving forward, maybe self preservation will kick in more.

I took our youngest to a counselling session on Friday. Kid came and asked me to come in at the end. Kid had a handful of rolled up scribbler pages. The counselor said kid read over 15 pages of notes of things they've seen at home. Counselor said to kid, your mother isn't allowed to come here to sessions with you and I'm advising very strong boundaries for a year, perhaps more.

Then counselor said, You're extremely strong. I began to cry, and said no, I don't think so. She said, yes you are extremely emotionally and mentally strong. You've endured abuse without retaliation, and raised beautiful children with little support. Your wife was drawn to you because of your strength. She needed you to fill something for her but it can't be filled.

Then counselor said, you need to go home and have fun and have closeness and love each other before kid's anxiety becomes chronic. Your kids are STILL in their formative years. They need to stop walking on eggshells. Talk about your wife a little, but play and love each other a lot.

So.... Today we met up with some friends and family at a fun restaurant an hour away and ditched all our chores.

RDM
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  #61  
Old Apr 01, 2023, 07:51 PM
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I think that's because as a child of an alcoholic parent, you are used to caring for others, rather than for yourself. It's not natural for you to look out for YOU. But self care and self love are so important to self preservation.
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  #62  
Old Apr 01, 2023, 08:24 PM
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I'm very impressed with that counselor!
  #63  
Old Apr 01, 2023, 09:05 PM
RDMercer RDMercer is offline
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I'm doing little things I want to look forward to.

Like treating myself to my favorite take out coffee a couple of times a week, or meeting a friend for lunch, or (gasp) paying for a (male) friend's lunch.

Nothing big yet
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  #64  
Old Apr 02, 2023, 04:36 AM
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It’s hard to accept that you cannot fix another person.

This is especially true when someone we love is an alcoholic/addict. There is usually an underlying issue and the alcohol is part of the escape. These individuals tend to create outside ways of gaining a sense of control. They tend to repeat patterns that are unhealthy. Individuals that are nearing 50 yet still interacting with the maturity level of an eighteen year old. That is where they are stuck and are very resistant to changing and actually growing.

It took me a while to understand this myself. I wanted what you wanted, I hear you. It’s not your fault that you can’t fix her.
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  #65  
Old Apr 02, 2023, 07:41 AM
RDMercer RDMercer is offline
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Hi Open Eyes

She regressed. As she immersed herself more with her new BFFs, she became more immature.
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  #66  
Old Apr 02, 2023, 11:19 AM
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Look up Limerence, something to think about as I think you had been stuck in it unknowingly.

Actually there are probably YouTube talks about it.
  #67  
Old Apr 02, 2023, 08:55 PM
RDMercer RDMercer is offline
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I took some time to look up some info on limerance, and YT talks on the topic.

I longed for my wife terribly. I still do. I'm only strong in her absence. All I have to do is receive a reasonable text from her followed up by a "thank you" and I start wondering if we have a future.

But it wasn't only a fantasy. It wasn't only topical or shallow. There are parts of the definitions and explanations of limerance that I see as applying to me.

Thank you.
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  #68  
Old Apr 03, 2023, 08:21 AM
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I wonder if longing for your wife to be different than she is, is tied to a childhood longing that you had for your alcoholic parent.... children of alcoholic parents are often forced to grow up fast, & become the caretaker of their parent... rather than the reverse. That longing could very well be tied to your childhood. Something to think about at least.
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  #69  
Old Apr 03, 2023, 08:44 AM
RDMercer RDMercer is offline
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Believe it or not, my oldest said

"I think you had to look after a lot, and it was just expected. I think you just took on responsibility on the farm because if you didn't it would have had a lot of repercussions. You always told us with our pets, Animals don't care if you're tired or if you had a bad day, they need you. So I think you just worked and looked after stuff, and if someone was drinking you just looked after more. I also think no one in your family noticed that you did that and I don't think you ever got much credit for it. So, doing a lot, and not being noticed for it was normal to you. Not being treated fairly was normal to you. And that is just what you continued to do with Mom. Dad, you told me just because something is normal for you it doesn't mean it is right. Well, this isn't right for you just because it's what's normal for you."
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  #70  
Old Apr 03, 2023, 09:31 AM
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Isn't it strange how we can live a pattern like that and not realize just what it was we were doing?

I'm continually taken aback by revelations about my own life, frequently thinking something along the lines of "Why did I accept that as normal? Why did I think it was okay to be treated that way?"

It can be a lot to digest.

There are a couple of good YT channels that help deal with childhood trauma, if you are interested in pursuing that end of things at this point, I can give you the names of the ones I like. It can be a good place to move to once you are the central focus of your life again.

Hope today is a good day.
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  #71  
Old Apr 03, 2023, 12:40 PM
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It sounds like your oldest has really taken time to understand his mother’s alcoholism and disordered behaviors and why you continued to protect her even though it was so unhealthy.

A therapist I had told me to watch a series called “Mad Men” and the series took place in my parents generation. I found it and watched an episode and found it very triggering. We changed from cable to streaming to save money and I found it again and ended up watching the entire series. There was a lot of alcoholism in my parents generation and it was normalized. Women were devalued in a normalized way as well. When I was growing up I did see a lot of alcohol consumption and I thought that was just something adults did.

I get angry that it was normalized because I failed to see important red flags that ended up causing me a lot of emotional pain. I also get very disgusted when I come across an alcoholic/addict hypocrite. These individuals are high drama, attention seeking, victim mentality yet they are right in there drinking and drugging themselves. Seriously, why don’t they just admit they choose other addicts because they themselves have a problem?

They won’t, you know why? Because they are addicted to the high of the drama, drama, drama. And don’t even try to call them out, they will rage and have a melt down and call you an abuser. It’s very possible it’s borderline personality disorder with the narcissistic behavior patterns of an alcoholic/addict. The so called love is not a normal healthy love. Instead it’s all about the drama and feeling lost without it.
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  #72  
Old Apr 03, 2023, 01:43 PM
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@ArmorPlate108 it’s human nature to follow patterns not always realizing how unhealthy it may be.
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  #73  
Old Apr 05, 2023, 09:52 AM
Elephantmangos Elephantmangos is offline
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RD Mercer,

I understand your feelings. Although we know that your wife and my husband are not good for us but it is not easy to dismiss the feelings we have for them. Not sure it is love or just because we are used to have them in our lives.
  #74  
Old Apr 05, 2023, 11:24 AM
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When your partner/spouse/and even friend is an alcoholic/addict they become very self absorbed and can act like they care but that part of their brain actually is not working and instead doesn’t really consider the feelings of spouse/friend/or children.

This leaves spouse/partner/friend/ children feeling vey alone and disconnected and even betrayed in that the alcoholic consistently fails to recognize the hurt they cause. Instead they continue to be all about their own feelings and needs. They can feel loss but not the loss others feel that they hurt in this very selfish disease.

Typical conversations are about “you have to support my needs” and if you don’t follow along with that you are deemed unsupportive and mean abusive etc etc. the drama that is constant is mostly “ all about me and my needs”

My father never admitted he was an alcoholic. My father regretted and was even tearful about his failings. Yet he never looked at me and said he was sorry if I had been hurt. I loved my father, yet I wish he was able to look at me and acknowledge that he understands he hurt me.

That part is missing when someone is an alcoholic/addict. It’s the nature of that disease and how it affect a persons brain.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Apr 05, 2023 at 11:40 AM.
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  #75  
Old Apr 05, 2023, 12:40 PM
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@Bill3 yes you know this one. And this is and never was something you could fix. You have a good heart, you deserved better. @RDMercer this is not something you can fix either and it pains you because you are capable of caring and it’s hurting your children who need to feel safe and loved so they can grow and mature. Yes your wife is a bottomless pit and you are powerless to change that. It was never that you were not good enough, and your children need to understand this too.

You can feel the pain of others, alcoholics don’t, and that is because their addiction shuts off that part of the brain. This is why these individuals never mature and tend to stay self absorbed and self centered. The partner/friend/spouse/children all suffer and feel very alone and confused because of this.

You and your children deserve better. @Starlingflock, you too deserve to heal and have someone who is actually mature and capable of caring. You too cannot fix your husband, keep trying and let him go as he only brings problems and doesn’t care.
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