[Early human]

I finally decided that I either wanted to 'make out' with my T through out our sessions (which she would not do of course) or I wanted her to stop hugging me. Since she started hugging me I have obsessing about her between sessions wondering what she 'thinks' about me. The hugs derailed me and I was no longer to keep my transference at bay. So, I am really interested in your opinions as to weather the type of hugs that I described are inherently wrong, poor judgement, etc. It caused an awful outcome for me; my T angrily fired me and I am confused and in a horrible depression

[0w6c379]

I don't see the harm in it if you are o.k. and comfortable with it.

[unaluna]

Im in the opposite situation from you in that we're female client and male therapist, but I have also been seeing him for about ten years elapse time, seven years of therapy. I am surprised that transference never came up before now for you two. I asked my t for a hug at our first session, but he wasnt my first t. But he is the first t I hugged on a regular basis. We talked about it a lot. Now it doesnt seem like such a big deal anymore, and I think my transference is resolving itself. But it takes a lot of honesty.

[Early human]

I was a disaster for me. But, when she started doing it I went along with it because she is the pro and I trusted her judgement. Unfortunately, as time went on it became damaging to me because it increased my erotic transference to unmanageable levels. And when I advised her of that fact she began 'greasing the skids' to dump me. So in my case it was clearly a disaster. My not being a trained therapist the risks involved in such hugging were unknown to me so I am not certain that I had the capacity to actually consent when she started the on going hugs. Just as a minor may acquiesce to sex with an adult he or she doesn't have the capacity to consent. That's why I phrased my question as weather it is 'inherently' wrong.

[Early human]

Originally Posted by hankster

Im in the opposite situation from you in that we're female client and male therapist, but I have also been seeing him for about ten years elapse time, seven years of therapy. I am surprised that transference never came up before now for you two. I asked my t for a hug at our first session, but he wasnt my first t. But he is the first t I hugged on a regular basis. We talked about it a lot. Now it doesnt seem like such a big deal anymore, and I think my transference is resolving itself. But it takes a lot of honesty.

I attempted to bring up my erotic transference with her. I told her she was my 'goddess' which I meant in a figurative sense. I commented on her beauty, I told her I wanted to kiss her. When things came to head her response was 'I thought you were joking, you always joke around'. Right over her head. Now, she hates me; I believe she hates me because she is very embarrassed that I am attributing my transference 'train wreck' to the hugs. She feels that I betrayed her in that the hugs were well intentioned. My problem is that I liked them too much. She had no clue until it became a crisis for me; then she angrily 'dumped' me! It's a hard time for me.

[unaluna]

Honestly, smoke is coming out of my ears at her saying, "I thought you were joking." Even if she did think you were joking, wasnt it her job to understand what your jokes were really trying to say? Doesnt take a rocket scientist! Or maybe it does. I got that same line. Oh you made a joke about it so I thought you had resolved it. Really??? Im bouncing off my chair here so things seem resolved to you??

Eta: but your situation sounds like a big miscommunication. Idk. You're 60, not 16. And you kind of preemptivly quit.

[Early human]

Originally Posted by hankster

Honestly, smoke is coming out of my ears at her saying, "I thought you were joking." Even if she did think you were joking, wasnt it her job to understand what your jokes were really trying to say? Doesnt take a rocket scientist! Or maybe it does. I got that same line. Oh you made a joke about it so I thought you had resolved it. Really??? Im bouncing off my chair here so things seem resolved to you??

Eta: but your situation sounds like a big miscommunication. Idk. You're 60, not 16. And you kind of preemptivly quit.

'You're 60, not 16, ...' A bit judgmental. The T told me I was done, so going along with the charade of the last session would have been excruciating! Thanks for your comment.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Early human

'You're 60, not 16, ...' A bit judgmental. The T told me I was done, so going along with the charade of the last session would have been excruciating! Thanks for your comment.

Sorry. I was researching another question I had seen, where a woman asked if she had any recourse after finding out the man she had slept with had lied about being married And they discuss statutory rape. It was pretty much decided no. But you ask inherent. I would just say she handled it wrong. She should not have initiated touching without a discussion. Since she did, yes it was inherently wrong. If the genders were reversed, I think it would be obvious. We would ask wth was he doing? Heck people ask me that.

[nicoleflynn]

That was unethical to dump you. SHe obviously wasn't well-trained. Hugs are fine as long as they are discussed, etc.....but you were intelligent enough to know they were problematic for you; she should have praised you for recognizing your feelings, etc. Shame on her! Actually we can report such unethical behavior.

[Early human]

I would never report her. To be fair to her, if she asked me if I would be comfortable hugging her I would have said yes. By the time the hugs began I already thought that I loved her. But, once the hugs started I became almost obsessed with her. I did elude to my transference for years, usually in the form of flirtation. She didn't get it, but she was always very kind and understanding and now beyond recommending an alternative T she won't talk to me. I think she made some mistakes, but she is a good woman and I feel bad that I angered her. Thanks for your comment.

[Syra]

Except for the sexual and romantic feelings, the same thing happened to me. As best I can tell, the hugs and holding meant more to me than she intended. She didn't say that. but it's part of the narrative I've developed to put the pieces together in a way that makes sense (she won't talk to me, much less own her part in it all). And then she dumped me when I got too dependent (or something. not sure why, but I overwhelmed her somehow).


I think the only hugs that are inherently wrong are ones that come from sexual feelings, or which touch parts which elicit sexual feelings - in either person. But I agree with the above who said that whatever the hug, and particularly if things are getting wonky, the meaning of the hugs should be discussed. The hugs should be supportive, and not create dependency either. Can't know that wihtout talking about it.

For me, the hugging has been hugely healing. When we talk about things that I think are horrifying and make me a disgusting person, him being willing to touch me is huge. It is very reassuring that I am not disgusting. I am not contaminating other people. From the beginning, though, it was my choice. I was the one who brought up the issue of touching. He has asked since then about whether I am okay with the hugging. Hugging is always my choice. It is not something that we just DO without ever talking about what it means. Your T does sound poorly trained, but I do not think a full frontal embrace is inherently wrong or harmful for the client.

[Early human]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

For me, the hugging has been hugely healing. When we talk about things that I think are horrifying and make me a disgusting person, him being willing to touch me is huge. It is very reassuring that I am not disgusting. I am not contaminating other people. From the beginning, though, it was my choice. I was the one who brought up the issue of touching. He has asked since then about whether I am okay with the hugging. Hugging is always my choice. It is not something that we just DO without ever talking about what it means. Your T does sound poorly trained, but I do not think a full frontal embrace is inherently wrong or harmful for the client.

Thanks for sharing tour experience. For the sake of being honest; I loved the hugs! That was the problem. My inability or failure to tell her not to hug me is actually a reflection of why I was seeing a T. ie: self esteem, depression, anxiety and then several years into the therapy the death of my 22 year old son. My son' death brought about an irrational sense of guilt as well as other grief related issues. She was so kind and now she hates me? Kind of like if one of my kids 'disowned me', it's another difficult loss that I have to endure.

[Syra]

I so understand the feeling of LOVING the hugs while at the same time it being a problem, but that was why I was there so I couldn't figure out how to say antyhing and besides, I LOVED it and she was offering and she must know what she is doing.

I'm so sorry to hear about your sons death. I have a friend who's young adult daughter died. It's soo hard.

I hadn't thought of it before, but I felt kind of "disowned" by my T too. That sounds very descriptive of what it is like. It has been a very difficult loss. I imagine it would be so much harder on top of hte the loss of a child!. I imagine the pain is very very deep? And the touch was soothing? Is that it? and then the soothing touch which reduced the pain lead to more pain? Is that it? or perhaps I have described me more than you?

.

[scorpiosis37]

No, I do not think a full frontal hug from T is inherently wrong. My T and I hug that way at the end of every session and it has been one of the most healing aspects of my therapy. I grew up without a mom and never received any affection as a child (I'm now in my 20s), so it's been very therapeutic for me to get that kind of affection and care from my T. In fact, the most powerful session I've had with her was when I was in tears and she came and sat next to me on the couch, put her arm around me, and stroked my knee. It felt like precisely the kind of maternal love I had never experienced. For me, hugs/touch in therapy have not led to either romantic feelings or dependency; for me, it has felt gentle and kind and it has filled some of the maternal "void" that was created in childhood. As a result, it's has made me feel more independent and behave more affectionately with the people in my RL.

In the beginning, I was the one who asked T if she allowed hugs/touch. She said yes. We haven't really talked about the hugs since then (2 years ago). However, I have told T in passing that my feelings for her are maternal (not erotic) so I think that eliminates the need for her to "check in" about that kind of an issue (though it could have been a possibility since I am a lesbian and she is bisexual). The only time my T ever brought up hugs was after a session where I left WITHOUT hugging her. I told her that the reason I didn't hug her that session was because I was feeling disconnected-- so we talked about and resolved the disconnection-- and I hugged her again the following session.

If a governing body like the APA issued a blanket policy like "no hugs in therapy, ever" or, even more ridiculously, "hugs in therapy must be shoulder to shoulder or one-armed or with 6 inches of space in between"-- I would find that very sad. I would see that as an outgrowth of the fear that any kind of touch or affection can be misconstrued as sexual. For some clients, hugs can be incredibly healing and, for others, they can be damaging. I think it should be up to the individual T and client to negotiate what is right for them. Unfortunately, like in your situation, your T was not attuned enough to your transference feelings for her to (1) ask about/address those feelings directly (2) ask you to elaborate on comments you made like "I want to kiss you" that should not be brushed off or automatically treated as a joke (3) initiated hugs without talking about them and checking in about them in light of (1) and (2), (4) when you brought up these issues to her, she terminated you instead of discussing them in a professional manner. Like everyone else, I agree that your T did not respond appropriately to your particular situation and needs. However, I don't think the issue is that she gave you hugs. I think the issue is that she ignored/missed your very clear signs of transference, didn't check in about the hugs, did not talk about boundaries when you made comments like "I want to kiss you" and allowed the flirtatious behavior to continue unchecked, and then terminated with you when you finally brought up your transference yourself. Unfortunately, these are signs of an inexperienced or poorly trained T. With more skilled Ts, hugs can be used therapeutically with clients who WOULD benefit from them. I think things like touch in therapy should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis by Ts who are skilled enough to handle sensitive issues.

[Early human]

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

No, I do not think a full frontal hug from T is inherently wrong. My T and I hug that way at the end of every session and it has been one of the most healing aspects of my therapy. I grew up without a mom and never received any affection as a child (I'm now in my 20s), so it's been very therapeutic for me to get that kind of affection and care from my T. In fact, the most powerful session I've had with her was when I was in tears and she came and sat next to me on the couch, put her arm around me, and stroked my knee. It felt like precisely the kind of maternal love I had never experienced. For me, hugs/touch in therapy have not led to either romantic feelings or dependency; for me, it has felt gentle and kind and it has filled some of the maternal "void" that was created in childhood. As a result, it's has made me feel more independent and behave more affectionately with the people in my RL.

In the beginning, I was the one who asked T if she allowed hugs/touch. She said yes. We haven't really talked about the hugs since then (2 years ago). However, I have told T in passing that my feelings for her are maternal (not erotic) so I think that eliminates the need for her to "check in" about that kind of an issue (though it could have been a possibility since I am a lesbian and she is bisexual). The only time my T ever brought up hugs was after a session where I left WITHOUT hugging her. I told her that the reason I didn't hug her that session was because I was feeling disconnected-- so we talked about and resolved the disconnection-- and I hugged her again the following session.

If a governing body like the APA issued a blanket policy like "no hugs in therapy, ever" or, even more ridiculously, "hugs in therapy must be shoulder to shoulder or one-armed or with 6 inches of space in between"-- I would find that very sad. I would see that as an outgrowth of the fear that any kind of touch or affection can be misconstrued as sexual. For some clients, hugs can be incredibly healing and, for others, they can be damaging. I think it should be up to the individual T and client to negotiate what is right for them. Unfortunately, like in your situation, your T was not attuned enough to your transference feelings for her to (1) ask about/address those feelings directly (2) ask you to elaborate on comments you made like "I want to kiss you" that should not be brushed off or automatically treated as a joke (3) initiated hugs without talking about them and checking in about them in light of (1) and (2), (4) when you brought up these issues to her, she terminated you instead of discussing them in a professional manner. Like everyone else, I agree that your T did not respond appropriately to your particular situation and needs. However, I don't think the issue is that she gave you hugs. I think the issue is that she ignored/missed your very clear signs of transference, didn't check in about the hugs, did not talk about boundaries when you made comments like "I want to kiss you" and allowed the flirtatious behavior to continue unchecked, and then terminated with you when you finally brought up your transference yourself. Unfortunately, these are signs of an inexperienced or poorly trained T. With more skilled Ts, hugs can be used therapeutically with clients who WOULD benefit from them. I think things like touch in therapy should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis by Ts who are skilled enough to handle sensitive issues.

That is a great reply that you gave me, it is very helpful. I regret the way I handled telling her, because I think that I humiliated her. But, I was confused and awkward and she missed the flirting, etc. At that point I wanted to either run off with her or tell her off. She is a kind, wonderful person. I agree that she misread me. I feel bad that my relationship ended 'ugly', it was the last thing I wanted. Thanks again.

[nicoleflynn]

I didn't mean that you should.....report her, just saying that abandoning a client is unethical...and you are welcome!

Kind Regards, Nicole

Originally Posted by Early human

I would never report her. To be fair to her, if she asked me if I would be comfortable hugging her I would have said yes. By the time the hugs began I already thought that I loved her. But, once the hugs started I became almost obsessed with her. I did elude to my transference for years, usually in the form of flirtation. She didn't get it, but she was always very kind and understanding and now beyond recommending an alternative T she won't talk to me. I think she made some mistakes, but she is a good woman and I feel bad that I angered her. Thanks for your comment.

[Early human]

Originally Posted by nicoleflynn

I didn't mean that you should.....report her, just saying that abandoning a client is unethical...and you are welcome!

Kind Regards, Nicole

I know that you we're not suggesting reporting her. I think she wasn't comfortable talking about my erotic feelings, so she simply said 'Oh, than it won't work, I'll refer you to a male T'? Maybe technically it is unethical, but she is human. And she did help me so much for 10 years. Although she might hate me now she will always have a place in my heart (not in an erotic sense). I wrote her 3 three letters that must have been very hurtful. The 1st telling her outright about my transference, 2nd expressing my resentment of her dumping me with out talking through it. In the 3rd letter I angrily fixed the blame on her for hugging me and other things she did (naively) without catching my cues that I was smitten by her. That must have been hurtful and the cause of the anger that she expressed the last time we spoke (over the Tele). I never stopped loving my wife throughout my fixation with the T. I was troubled and confused before I told the T about my trans. Upon telling her I felt guilty and lost. I feel a bit better thanks to you and the others taking the time to share your insights with me. Thanks again, Human.

[Early human]

Originally Posted by Syra

Except for the sexual and romantic feelings, the same thing happened to me. As best I can tell, the hugs and holding meant more to me than she intended. She didn't say that. but it's part of the narrative I've developed to put the pieces together in a way that makes sense (she won't talk to me, much less own her part in it all). And then she dumped me when I got too dependent (or something. not sure why, but I overwhelmed her somehow).


I think the only hugs that are inherently wrong are ones that come from sexual feelings, or which touch parts which elicit sexual feelings - in either person. But I agree with the above who said that whatever the hug, and particularly if things are getting wonky, the meaning of the hugs should be discussed. The hugs should be supportive, and not create dependency either. Can't know that wihtout talking about it.

Maybe I was overly sensitive, but in light of my erotic transference of her the hugs did elicit sexual feelings. The hugs caused me to feel both of her breasts pressing tightly against my torso. I would then be distracted between sessions, wondering why she hugged me like that, does she know the effects the feel of her breasts have on me???? Throughout the sessions I wanted to stop talking and make out with her and kiss her breasts. ( I'm sorry that this is graphic, but that's what happened.)

[murray]

Although I do think that the hugs should have been discussed and may not have been advisable, when in the midst of erotic transference just about anything can result in the same sort of reactions you mentioned. Even a completely innocent smile, clothing choice, gesture....anything on the T's part really, can feed into the feelings and the fantasy. T's do definitely need to be careful regarding touch and all but it might be that you would have had these feelings anyway. I am not sure if you want to try to salvage the relationship with this T or not but perhaps she is still willing to work with you to resolve this issue, if you aren't still in the mindset that she either needs to run off with you or you will tell her off. I don't really know.

[bunnylove45]

Originally Posted by Early human

Maybe I was overly sensitive, but in light of my erotic transference of her the hugs did elicit sexual feelings. The hugs caused me to feel both of her breasts pressing tightly against my torso. I would then be distracted between sessions, wondering why she hugged me like that, does she know the effects the feel of her breasts have on me???? Throughout the sessions I wanted to stop talking and make out with her and kiss her breasts. ( I'm sorry that this is graphic, but that's what happened.)

I've been reading your story since you first posted. And I can say if my therapist hugged me or touched me in any manner it would certainly 'turn me on'. I have strong sexual feelings for him and I know I would misread his touch.

With that being said, I think he has a 'no touch' policy in place. Never once in the two years I've seen him has he even attempted a hand shake.

I can imagine how difficult that situation must have been for you.

[Early human]

[QUOTE=murray;3144441]Although I do think that the hugs should have been discussed and may not have been advisable, when in the midst of erotic transference just about anything can result in the same sort of reactions you mentioned. Even a completely innocent smile, clothing choice, gesture....anything on the T's part really, can feed into the feelings and the fantasy. T's do definitely need to be careful regarding touch and all but it might be that you would have had these feelings anyway. I am not sure if you want to try to salvage the relationship with this T or not but perhaps she is still willing to work with you to resolve this issue, if you aren't still in the mindset that she either needs to run off with you or you will tell her off. I don't really know.[/

She won't even talk to me never mind continue working with me. Immediately after reading my letter to her in her office in my presence she told me we were done. The letter unambiguously revealed my trans. I had to make it unambi... Because she didn't catch on when I gave her shuttle hint such as 'you're my goddess', one day when she had no desk in her office (moving) I told her 'this even better I can look at your legs throughout ....'. She said ok 'in my new office I can just move my chair from the desk'. Right over her head. Now she must feel humiliated that I finally objected to the hugs. ( And I feel terrible that/ if she does.) I told that only my wife hugs me that way. Until the hugs started I handled my trans very well. She was only willing talk to me to offer the name of a male replacement T., in angry tones. Now when my wife and I hug (which is just as the T did) I can't help but to think of the T. That is very disturbing to me! I wanted nothing more than to work it out with her; I was devastated when the T refused.

[Early human]

Originally Posted by bunnylove45

I've been reading your story since you first posted. And I can say if my therapist hugged me or touched me in any manner it would certainly 'turn me on'. I have strong sexual feelings for him and I know I would misread his touch.

With that being said, I think he has a 'no touch' policy in place. Never once in the two years I've seen him has he even attempted a hand shake.

I can imagine how difficult that situation must have been for you.

Thank you, my depression is almost unmanageable. After a ten year relationship with a wonderful T I feel abandoned. It's as if one of my kids disowned me. Tomorrow I have an appoint with a new male T I am hoping for some relief. I appreciate your concern.

I think that maybe she crossed a line with you but didn't mean to. She should have picked up on the fact that her hugs were making problems for you. Maybe this has taught her a lesson to be more careful with her clients in the future.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Early human

Thank you, my depression is almost unmanageable. After a ten year relationship with a wonderful T I feel abandoned. It's as if one of my kids disowned me. Tomorrow I have an appoint with a new male T I am hoping for some relief. I appreciate your concern.

I am so glad to hear you will be seeing someone.