[sunrise]

Three weeks after the session where I believed T lied to me, we finally got together again. It's really hard for me to go 3 weeks between sessions. This was the first of our 90 minute sessions, which T had offered to me last time when he saw that 50 minutes every other week was not enough to talk about what I needed and wanted to.

I have to say that 90 minute sessions totally ROCK!! I do not think we would have gotten to the really important stuff if we had had a regular length session, or we would have scratched the surface and then had to end.

It was kind of disconcerting when I first saw T, as he had been in an accident the previous day and was not looking good--he had been to the ER and was all bandaged up. Of course I asked what had happened and I got a flurry of words spilling out and T talking a mile a minute and making light of and joking about the whole thing, even as he described it to me--he was actually lucky, it could have been worse. (I kept visualizing that in my mind. ) I know he was being very funny but I could not laugh--none of it struck me as funny AT ALL. I was too upset he had been hurt and instead cried as he talked. I told him I was sorry I couldn't laugh and he said he was sorry for all the joking, and that he had been in shock and crying too, even earlier that day, but now he was through that and had to somehow dissipate the energy and tension that were left. So we agreed it was OK for him to joke as long as he didn't mind if I cried and did not laugh with him. It was a weird start to the session, but I am so thankful he will be OK.

I got to bring him up to date on some things I have been wanting to talk to him about since June! He said, how could all this have happened and I didn't know? I said there just has not been time. And we talked about other things surrounding this theme and I got to tell him stories, which I love to do, and he told me that he just really likes who I am. Yeah, ditto!

I took a break for a few minutes, then came back to his office and started in on the conversation about "the lie." For me, this was a brave thing to do, as I am very conflict avoidant. It went really well. I just have so much respect for him and how open he is to discussing anything and how he did not get defensive or mad, but had an attitude of curiousity and wanting to understand my feelings and thoughts and perceptions, and was very willing to share his own. He is a model to me of how to communicate openly. I realize that I have made some headway on this in the last 3 years, as I don't think I ever could have brought up a difficult topic like this with him even a year ago.

T told me that he did not realize that what he told me was not the truth. He said that he must have been misinformed and that he wished he had looked into this more carefully before talking to me about it last time with such certainty. He said he just truly did not know. He said that he was going to look into it right away to learn more and I told him that wasn't necessary (it was enough for me to know that he had not deliberately lied), but he said he wanted to look into it for himself, so he would know what was correct. We got to talk about a lot that had come up for me surrounding "the lie", and that was very helpful and even healing. We got to say lots of affirmations to each other (kind of like kissing and making up, lol). I really liked hearing his side of the story and learned from it. I am so glad we are in the type of therapy where the T can share his thoughts and feelings. We got to go beneath the surface of that misinformed thing he said and I got to hear his real beliefs and feelings instead of this incorrect information he had given me. This is what mattered, that I know how he felt and why.

On the way out, I stopped by his desk to schedule the next appointment and pulled up a chair next to him. We scheduled and then he turned to me and said something like this, "I think I said that to you because it seemed easy. I did think it was true, but it made the conversation easy instead of telling you the real reasons. I was ambivalent about telling you and so I said the other thing, which turned out not to be correct. I didn't think it mattered because the result would be the same." I really liked this insight he had into his behavior, and I REALLY like that he shared it with me. Then we stood to go and he asked if we could share a hug. Well, of course! It was nice--we don't hug every time, so I really value them. As we were close, he thanked me for my empathy at the beginning of the session (crying for him) and gave me a little squeeze.

I left and felt very happy. Very tired, but happy. I think this may be the beginning of a higher level of honesty and communication with T. This was a very hard conversation for me, a very hard topic to raise. I did not shy away from what was important to discuss, I did not tuck it away deep inside and say oh this doesn't matter. I had an open conversation about it. We were two adults who like and respect each other, talking to reach greater understanding.

[rainbow8]

sunrise, what a beautiful session! Your T sounds wonderful. I am SO glad that he was honest and not defensive about "the lie." You have such a good, open relationship with him. You're lucky to have 90 minute sessions: hmm, if I paid the money I wonder if my T would do that for me. Every 4 months 90 minutes would be really nice.

I'd be upset with my T if she were in an accident and laughing about it, too. It's scary when our Ts get hurt. It reinforces that they're human, just like us, and anything that can happen to us can happen to them. Actually, looking at it that way, it can make us closer to them. They're just like us.

The hug at the end sounds so perfect, too.

[turquoisesea]

that sounds amazing! I'm so happy for you

sunny, i am so glad your situation with t is all straightened out. it's wonderful to hear he didn't really lie to you after all. and good for you for confronting him anyway. you are growing! me too, your conflict-avoidant friend. how awful that t was in bandages. it sounds like it was a serious accident but i'm glad to hear he is ok. isn't it funny that we can care about your t when we've never even met you?

[BlueMoon6]

Sunrise- You and your t sound like you have the most beautiful kind of connection. A real love and caring for one another. I am in awe of this. I am in awe of the process that the two of you go through to reach this place of greater understanding. The give and take and honesty.

I am so touched by the genuine empathy you had for him and that he was able to tell you why he was making light of his accident at that moment. He sounds like a very special person and so are you.

I read your post last night and could not reply. I was thinking about a lot of things and one of them was your relationship with your t. The comfort, caring,trust and genuiness that you have with each other is something I want in my life. I dont think I have ever had that kind caring. Or connection. With anyone. When I read this, I felt like I was reading a fairytale. A make-believe story of what love looks like. But it is real and that makes me sad, because I think it is for other people but not for me. I cant have this, no matter how much I want to. Wanting it isnt enough. Sigh....Thank you so much for this post, it gives me some hope that love isnt just for fairytales......

Sunny, I'm so happy that you and T cleared up the misunderstanding, and that your T didn't realize he was lying to you! What a strong, beautiful connection you and your T share - you're an inspiration!

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by bloom3

how awful that t was in bandages. it sounds like it was a serious accident but i'm glad to hear he is ok. isn't it funny that we can care about your t when we've never even met you?

Yes, that's wonderful. Thank you for caring about my T, bloom. I feel the same way about some of the Ts I've "gotten to know" (through their clients) on PC also.

[chaotic13]

Nice Sunrise. As I was reading your post I just kept imagining how I've felt during therapy when I've nudged myself beyond my comfort zone. Its painful but the rewards are often worth it. Then with each rep it gets easier, more comfortable. The best is when you realize your now operating on a regular basis in situations that previously you would never have imagined even approaching.

[Simcha]

That's cool Sunrise
I almost always do 90 minute sessions, no matter how much time between appointments passes. They are far higher in quality than the 45 minute appointments, and I think longer appointments are probably easier for those with ADHD on top of other issues, as coherent, linear conversations can be a little challenging.

I think it's great that you hug your T, but I'm happy my T is more of the shaking hands variety...if my T hugged me, I'd freak out.

[rainbow8]

When I read about 90 minute sessions, I think that if I ever see another T, I will NEVER again make the mistake to choose someone who doesn't take our insurance. It would be $200 for 90 minutes--I should have done it in the past when my H still had his job. I never thought of it then, and neither did my T. Time was always up when I was in the middle of things, but it just never occurred to my T or me. How common are 90 minute sessions?

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

You're lucky to have 90 minute sessions: hmm, if I paid the money I wonder if my T would do that for me. Every 4 months 90 minutes would be really nice.

Yes, I am lucky. Since you only see your T once every 4 months, it doesn't seem like too much to ask. You would not be asking to see her more frequently, just for a bit longer. Sounds like a great idea!

I'd be upset with my T if she were in an accident and laughing about it, too.

Well, I wasn't upset with my T. I was upset because he was hurt and I shared that hurt and cried. I care deeply for him and that is why I cried. (It had nothing to do with his laughing.)

It's scary when our Ts get hurt. It reinforces that they're human, just like us, and anything that can happen to us can happen to them.

I think I felt the same for him as I would for anyone I care so deeply about.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

I am so touched by the genuine empathy you had for him and that he was able to tell you why he was making light of his accident at that moment. He sounds like a very special person and so are you.

Thank you, Bluemoon.

I'm now understanding that the time at the beginning of my session when we talked about his injury--before we even got into therapy--was quite a powerful interchange. To allow myself to cry for him and for him to be so accepting of my depth of feeling for him--very powerful. I like that he noticed and thanked me at the end. I also like how he did not look at my tears and think, "oh, I'm upsetting Sunny, I shouldn't be joking about this, I will stop now because I'm the therapist and should not upset her." I reeeeeally love that he did not do this at all. He had a need--to release tension/energy from his accident--and he was able to express that need (by his somewhat manic joking) with me present. It wasn't all about "me," which makes me feel the relationship is more real/reciprocal. It was not harmful to me or to our relationship. It drew us closer. He was very accepting that I care so much about him, and I did not feel embarrassed at all to cry.

I read your post last night and could not reply. I was thinking about a lot of things and one of them was your relationship with your t. The comfort, caring,trust and genuiness that you have with each other is something I want in my life. I dont think I have ever had that kind caring. Or connection. With anyone. When I read this, I felt like I was reading a fairytale. A make-believe story of what love looks like. But it is real and that makes me sad, because I think it is for other people but not for me.

Bluemoon, I don't have it either in my life, just what I experience in therapy. But I think that a place I try to have it,as best I can, is with my daughters. I would like for them to have a relationship with me like I have with my T. I'm not sure it is possible, but I try very hard to have good relationships with them and to be comforting, caring, etc. Wouldn't it be great if I could have had a relationship with my XH that had half the care/comfort/trust/authenticity of my relationship with T? But I think many who are married don't have close relationships. I did try to go to marriage counseling with my H many years ago, but he wouldn't go. If he had, maybe we could have learned to be closer. I would say, if you are not satisfied with the level of intimacy in your marriage, unless it is just totally broken, do the best you can to get help. Wouldn't it be worth it to have the kind of relationship you say you will never have? Maybe part of the reason the T tries to develop a close relationship with clients is because it may help motivate them to have closer relationships with others. It's a lot harder on the outside....

Originally Posted by sunrise

Maybe part of the reason the T tries to develop a close relationship with clients is because it may help motivate them to have closer relationships with others. It's a lot harder on the outside....

I think this is so true. My relationship with T has DRAMATICALLY changed my relationship with H. I now know what it feels like to be heard, and cared for, and to speak up about my needs and feelings, and it's made me step out of my "comfort zone" in my marriage. It was a rocky change at first, but things are so much better now. And I feel like I've learned from T how to listen, and how to own my own stuff, and I know that H likes that. Things are just so much better, and I really believe it's because I got to "practice" in the safety of therapy.

Sunny, what you did was so, so, so brave. You took a BIG risk, and look what happened....you found out that you CAN bring up difficult things with people (at least with T!!) and they can hear you and you can sort it out and move forward, together. I really do think that some of my most healing moments in T have come through ruptures...and I think a lot of my closeness with T is a result of working through those difficult times together.

It's obvious that T values your relationship and values YOU. I'm so glad that you were so brave.

[phoenix7]

i just wanted to say how brave you were and how wonderful the result was - you should be very prooud of yourself

[chaotic13]

I have definitely been able to transfer things I've learned through interacting with T. My ability to communicate with H and others is better. Not really sure if my relationship with H is "better" but at least I know where I am now.

I like how sunny's T was continuing to reflect on how he handle things.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by phoenix7

i just wanted to say how brave you were and how wonderful the result was - you should be very prooud of yourself

Thank you, phoenix. Ya know, I am proud! I feel like I resolved this like an adult. I did not (figuratively) cower in a corner like a little girl and worry he was going to yell at me if I brought up this topic and decide instead to keep quiet. I did not do that! I was an adult. He was an adult. It was totally cool.

[chaotic13]

I would say you were more than just an adult... In this exchange you seemed like a self-actualized adult. Moving along on those psychosocial development stages covered in psy 101.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by sunrise

Thank you, phoenix. Ya know, I am proud! I feel like I resolved this like an adult. I did not (figuratively) cower in a corner like a little girl and worry he was going to yell at me if I brought up this topic and decide instead to keep quiet. I did not do that! I was an adult. He was an adult. It was totally cool.

Maybe you can teach a class on cool adulthood

Originally Posted by chaotic13

I would say you were more than just an adult... In this exchange you seemed like a self-actualized adult. Moving along on those psychosocial development stages covered in psy 101.

Chaotic- You always make me smile

[BlueMoon6]

Before I reply, I want to tell you that I printed out your post and am bringing it with me on monday (to therapy). A lot was brought up there for me, that relates to love, desk-t, mothers and what I need. And what I crave and want for my life. And the direction I want my life to go in. There are other things there that I want to discuss that I wont even post here Does that mean your post was a tirgger? I guess it does It brought up a lot of feelings for me.

Originally Posted by sunrise

Thank you, Bluemoon.
I'm now understanding that the time at the beginning of my session when we talked about his injury--before we even got into therapy--was quite a powerful interchange. To allow myself to cry for him and for him to be so accepting of my depth of feeling for him--very powerful. I like that he noticed and thanked me at the end. I also like how he did not look at my tears and think, "oh, I'm upsetting Sunny, I shouldn't be joking about this, I will stop now because I'm the therapist and should not upset her." I reeeeeally love that he did not do this at all.

Sunny, this is what struck me as so intimate about your relationship with him. He allows you your feelings, knowing they are yours and you can handle your empathy for him- its respect and trust. He trusts you with your feelings and your abilities. He knows you that well. And, he trusts and respects himself and your relationship enough to be able to be "real" with his manic need for some relief. It is intimacy on a deep level where he doesnt have to be therapisty with you.

Bluemoon, I don't have it either in my life, just what I experience in therapy. But I think that a place I try to have it,as best I can, is with my daughters. I would like for them to have a relationship with me like I have with my T. I'm not sure it is possible, but I try very hard to have good relationships with them and to be comforting, caring, etc.

This is interesting. I have this kind of intuition and relationship with my older daughters. I have worked hard on being that kind of person for them, since they were born. BUT the issue I have worked on in therapy is that I dismiss this realtionship with them as something for MY needs. Can it really be reciprocal? My t disagreed, but my reasoning is this- Even tho they are teenagers, they need me as their mother, it is not the same kind of reciprocal relationship I would have with another adult and I DO NOT want them to be concerned with meeting my needs. This issue has come up in family therapy as well. My t had said that is OK if I am feeling sad to ask them for a hug, and they would always do it and love me. But if I am feeling that needy and sad, I dont go to them. It makes me very uncomfortable to have them meeting my emotional needs. Maybe b/c I was expected to meet my mothers emotional needs, but also b/c I want it from someone who doesnt have that "mommy agenda." If that makes any sense. I dont want them to worry about me or have to take care of me. I am always there for them. They can take care of me that way when I am 100

Wouldn't it be great if I could have had a relationship with my XH that had half the care/comfort/trust/authenticity of my relationship with T? But I think many who are married don't have close relationships. I did try to go to marriage counseling with my H many years ago, but he wouldn't go. If he had, maybe we could have learned to be closer. I would say, if you are not satisfied with the level of intimacy in your marriage, unless it is just totally broken, do the best you can to get help. Wouldn't it be worth it to have the kind of relationship you say you will never have?

I dont feel like I do. I could write on and on about my relationship. My h and I have been in therapy with dt for about 1 yr (he isnt so fond of her....go figure)and we did get a lot out of it. We have been in to her office all summer with our kids every week. Ive been individually with this or that kid. Dt was pretty good in that way.

With my h and I, he loves me and I love him. Its a good start. But I could be more trusting of him than I am. He has shown me that he can be there for me. I have a huge issue with asking him to meet my needs b/c I am afraid I will "owe" him something for it or he will expect back from me 100 times over. I almost feel like what I ask for, I will be punished for...eventually. It may be accurate, or it may be my imagination. We've been married for 16 yrs and are close. We know each other well. But I dont feel trusting enough to tell him a lot of things that go on in my mind.

Another issue is that he has had a lot of trauma in his childhood and his older years. He is amazingly calm, grounded, loyal and level-headed. He keeps my feet on the ground, so to speak. This is a good thing, and it works for us. But he has things that trigger the trauma for him, and ftt says the relationship works well b/c we have completely different things that trigger us and we can ground each other and be a tremendous help to each other. It is something we have to continue to work on.

For example, he can be very busy with work, until late at night, but if he says anything sharp or quick to me, I immediately feel like I have done something wrong, he hates me, Im all alone in this life etc. I want to cry. Most often, it really isnt about me, he is just busy. Or not paying attention to how he sounds.

I could go on and on about other issues, but when it comes to having the kind of relationship you wrote about with your t, it seems far away. And it isnt just an h issue. It is my issues. Its fear and trust and probably more. Which is why I want to bring your post into ftt. There is a lot there for me to work on.

Maybe part of the reason the T tries to develop a close relationship with clients is because it may help motivate them to have closer relationships with others. It's a lot harder on the outside....

It is. Much harder. Not everyone you have a relationship with has such a knowledge of psychology The other thread about hugging and physical closeness with a t is tied into this thread. For me, anyway. There IS something about the physicalness of a hug that, for me, would carry over into RL.

[Brightheart]

Sunrise, you handled this entire thing very admirably and courageously. Your relationship with your T is undoubtedly a beautiful thing. It's inspiring really. I agree that it's much harder on the outside...but it's also pretty special to know what we're capable of, I think. The power of human connection...fraught with it's frailties and wonder is something to behold. I really believe that.

Am I allowed to spill that today is your birthday? I hope so...

Hope you had a great one!

[BlueMoon6]

First of all, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

But I think many who are married don't have close relationships. I did try to go to marriage counseling with my H many years ago, but he wouldn't go. If he had, maybe we could have learned to be closer.

Then...There is something else I want to add (of course )
It is so sad to me that your h wouldnt go. Even if there is the tiniest spark of a chance that things could have been better, it is tragic. Of course, I dont know anything about what happened with you and your x, but I know from people in my life, especially when children are involved, it is sad when the h wont do everything he possibly could save the marriage. I am so sorry, Sunny.

My husband and I have our issues and work to do on our relationship. It seems to be worked on in waves. We do a lot of work, then step back and see how things go (this is not a specific plan, just how things comfortably things seem to go for us with therapy). Then, back to work and then a step back. There are still so many things. But I like him. He is a good, intelligent, sensitive and sometimes even open () person. He has a lot of potential. He doesnt refuse, but he does have stand-offs. If I dont do this, then he wont do that. On the positive side, he will definitely listen to my concerns about the relatonship. He wants it to work and for us to be happy. And there are our children's lives to think of. So.....after all that rambling.....My goal for us is simply what you said. To learn to be closer to each other, and have the kind of intimacy that you describe with t. We are not so very far from it, but surely not there yet. Sigh....

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

Before I reply, I want to tell you that I printed out your post and am bringing it with me on monday (to therapy). A lot was brought up there for me, that relates to love, desk-t, mothers and what I need. And what I crave and want for my life.

Wow, let me know how it goes. I'm not trying to make light of this, but something inside me thinks, "hmmm, I wonder if ftt going to think my therapy is weird?"

Sunny, this is what struck me as so intimate about your relationship with him. He allows you your feelings, knowing they are yours and you can handle your empathy for him- its respect and trust. He trusts you with your feelings and your abilities. He knows you that well. And, he trusts and respects himself and your relationship enough to be able to be "real" with his manic need for some relief. It is intimacy on a deep level where he doesnt have to be therapisty with you.

Bluemoon, I really like your description. I think it all fits.

I have this kind of intuition and relationship with my older daughters. I have worked hard on being that kind of person for them, since they were born. BUT the issue I have worked on in therapy is that I dismiss this realtionship with them as something for MY needs. Can it really be reciprocal? My t disagreed, but my reasoning is this- Even tho they are teenagers, they need me as their mother, it is not the same kind of reciprocal relationship I would have with another adult and I DO NOT want them to be concerned with meeting my needs.

I think there is some degree of reciprocity, but I don't sit there and count beans (is it 50/50, 40/60, or 20/80?). I am not one to go to my kids and ask for hugs when I am down or expect them to actively meet my needs. I find that without asking them to, by their simple existence, they meet some of my needs. So I don't have a conflict with this. I am not going to them and dumping my problems in their lap and expecting them to console me. I think in a loving relationship, both people get something from it, whether one person is a parent or not. It is not all or nothing. Just because you're a parent, doesn't mean you don't get some needs met in your relationships with your children. Maybe a person can get part of their needs met from their children and part from a romantic partner and part from friends and part from their family of origin. I think if a parent decides they will not let their children help meet their emotional needs (which I believe occurs naturally and is not a sinister thing), then the result will be the parent pulling back from the child and not truly "being there" for them. They will be making the relationship unnecessarily one-sided, and the child will notice. The parent will appear withdrawn and perhaps cold. That's just my hypothesis. I do not want to withdraw from my kids just because I'm afraid I am getting something out of the relationship and a belief that I should not be.

Blumoon, it sounds like you've worked hard on your marriage relationship. That's great. Your H sounds very caring.

(he isnt so fond of her....go figure)

Sounds like a great guy!

I have a huge issue with asking him to meet my needs b/c I am afraid I will "owe" him something for it or he will expect back from me 100 times over. I almost feel like what I ask for, I will be punished for...eventually. It may be accurate, or it may be my imagination.

Did he tell you if this was accurate or not when you were in couples therapy? Sounds like such a great topic to go over in therapy when you both are there and the T can help manage this very important conversation. It would be hard to never bring this up with him and always have it hanging over your head.

For example, he can be very busy with work, until late at night, but if he says anything sharp or quick to me, I immediately feel like I have done something wrong, he hates me, Im all alone in this life etc. I want to cry. Most often, it really isnt about me, he is just busy. Or not paying attention to how he sounds.

This sounds like a very practical issue to work on. I so admire you for talking about all of this with your H and actively trying to work on it.

I could go on and on about other issues, but when it comes to having the kind of relationship you wrote about with your t, it seems far away. And it isnt just an h issue. It is my issues. Its fear and trust and probably more. Which is why I want to bring your post into ftt. There is a lot there for me to work on.

Although I've said things like this is a great thing to work on in couples therapy, there is so much about relationships that one can work on individually too, some of it very deep and going back to childhood. I wish that when my H refused to go to marriage counseling with me, that I had gone to marriage counseling for just myself. I didn't know back then that a person could go to individual marriage counseling. I have learned a lot in individual therapy about how to have better relationships and I think even just one person learning some of these things can have a beneficial effect on the marriage.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by treehouse

I think this is so true. My relationship with T has DRAMATICALLY changed my relationship with H. I now know what it feels like to be heard, and cared for, and to speak up about my needs and feelings, and it's made me step out of my "comfort zone" in my marriage. It was a rocky change at first, but things are so much better now. And I feel like I've learned from T how to listen, and how to own my own stuff, and I know that H likes that. Things are just so much better, and I really believe it's because I got to "practice" in the safety of therapy.

Having my relationships improve outside of therapy has been one of the big unexpected windfalls from going to therapy. When I first went, I had no idea improving my relationships with people would help me so much or that I needed to. That is not why I went. Here are relationships that have improved since I began therapy: with my mother, my 2 daughters, my boss, my sister, to name a few. And this is all without working on this goal directly in therapy, but just by what I learned from having a therapeutic relationship with T. It's like some big secret of therapy that the T knows very well when you begin: "you may think you're coming to see me to get help with __________, but one area you will really be helped in is in how to have relationships with people." Of course, it they announced this at the first session, one would probably think they're not listening to me, I want help with X, not relationships. It's like this great side benefit of therapy that may turn into the major gain.

A couple of days ago, I was sitting with my XH at a sporting event for our daughter. He was talking to me quite passionately about something related to his work/his career. His eyes were alight and he spoke quickly and animatedly and really wanted me to understand. I realized, gosh darn it, the guy is connecting with me. It struck me as quite sweet and poignant. I accepted his passion for what he was saying and responded in all the right places. I have a somewhat shared technical background so I could understand a good part of what he was saying. I thought it must be a little hard for him right now because he is unemployed, has no one in his field on a day to day basis to bounce ideas off of, and would not get this from most romantic partners (unless they are in his field). I think in the past I would not have realized this was a connection attempt on his part.

It was kind of interesting to understand this. Maybe I should add my XH to the list of relationships that have improved since therapy.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

First of all, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Then...There is something else I want to add (of course )
It is so sad to me that your h wouldnt go. Even if there is the tiniest spark of a chance that things could have been better, it is tragic. Of course, I dont know anything about what happened with you and your x, but I know from people in my life, especially when children are involved, it is sad when the h wont do everything he possibly could save the marriage. I am so sorry, Sunny.

Thanks, BlueMoon. I think the pain over that is gone. It was very bewildering to me at the time, as I felt our marriage was in such trouble and I was so unhappy, and when I suggested counseling, he said we didn't need it, that everything was fine in the marriage, that he was fine with the way things were. That made me feel like I was imagining things or hypersensitive or something--things were so bad, how could he say that? I must be deluded or completely wrong or something, so I just went back to doing the best I could without professional help. In the course of our recent split, he told me that the reason he would not go to marriage counseling back then was because he didn't want to acknowledge that there was anything wrong in our relationship because he felt if we talked about it, it would become "real" and we would then indeed have the problems I recognized. He just wanted to not talk about what might be wrong, because then we would have no problems. Does that make sense? It was just profound denial. He and I are both very, very avoidant types, and those are often the (unhappy) marriages that last longest.

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

My husband and I have our issues and work to do on our relationship.... There are still so many things. But I like him. He is a good, intelligent, sensitive and sometimes even open () person. He has a lot of potential. He doesnt refuse, but he does have stand-offs. If I dont do this, then he wont do that. On the positive side, he will definitely listen to my concerns about the relatonship. He wants it to work and for us to be happy. And there are our children's lives to think of. So.....after all that rambling.....My goal for us is simply what you said. To learn to be closer to each other, and have the kind of intimacy that you describe with t. We are not so very far from it, but surely not there yet.

I think this sounds very, very positive.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by sunrise

Wow, let me know how it goes. I'm not trying to make light of this, but something inside me thinks, "hmmm, I wonder if ftt going to think my therapy is weird?"

Its interesting that you said that, personally, I dont think there is anything at all there that is weird. It is a really lovely story about empathy and the depth of your relationship. If you dont want me to read it there, I wont I love the post, I really do, it so touched me and brought up so much. I also have difficulty seeing that kind of intimacy as a possibility for me, because of my fears or.... because of ??? Not sure. Thats what I want to bring up. If you dont want me to, I dont have to...I can sort of paraphrase in my own words

I think there is some degree of reciprocity, but I don't sit there and count beans (is it 50/50, 40/60, or 20/80?). I am not one to go to my kids and ask for hugs when I am down or expect them to actively meet my needs. I find that without asking them to, by their simple existence, they meet some of my needs. So I don't have a conflict with this.

That is how I feel as well. My children are a miracle and it is a miracle I got married in the first place. I worked so hard on myself in my younger years. For me, having no family or anyone, I am relieved that when they grow up they will (hopefully) have each other, have some kind of relationship including cousins etc. I wanted to create what I never had and could only, literally, imagine.
Dt suggested to me that I ask them for hugs when I am down, I have sort of been uncomfortable with that. They would always give me a hug, but when I am obviously down? Or not to seem down, seem up, and ask for a hug? Doesnt sit right with me.

I am not going to them and dumping my problems in their lap and expecting them to console me. I think in a loving relationship, both people get something from it, whether one person is a parent or not. It is not all or nothing. Just because you're a parent, doesn't mean you don't get some needs met in your relationships with your children. Maybe a person can get part of their needs met from their children and part from a romantic partner and part from friends and part from their family of origin. I think if a parent decides they will not let their children help meet their emotional needs (which I believe occurs naturally and is not a sinister thing), then the result will be the parent pulling back from the child and not truly "being there" for them. They will be making the relationship unnecessarily one-sided, and the child will notice. The parent will appear withdrawn and perhaps cold. That's just my hypothesis. I do not want to withdraw from my kids just because I'm afraid I am getting something out of the relationship and a belief that I should not be.

I see what you mean. I agree. Hmmm. I am very much not seen by my kids as cold and distant, I am probably, not in a conscious way, allowing them to meet my needs in the course of our natural interactions during the day/evening. Like when we chat making dinner, during homework time or special time chatting together. Or even in the car driving. Im saying this b/c I like the way you put it, that my children do meet my emotional needs in some way (and that it isnt a sinister thing) and our relationship isnt one-sided. At least I dont see it that way. Maybe my question is about those times when I an really not feeling well (emotionally) and I just dont feel right going to them to ask for....soothing? Reassurance? Whatever it might be. Maybe in some small way, asking for a hug from them at those moments isnt so bad. I would certianly not be dumping my thoughts onto them either, tho.

Blumoon, it sounds like you've worked hard on your marriage relationship. That's great. Your H sounds very caring.
Sounds like a great guy!

He can be. I can complain and complain, but much of the blame for difficulties we have rest on me and my fears. I could do a lot more to trust him. And see him for who is, as opposed to who I want him to be.
He has a nice intuitiveness about him, too. About me and when to back off. And it was the same with dt. He said some things about her that it took me a real long time to notice and figure out. He confirmed a lot of the things I was suspecting about her. He thinks she is thinking about herself and her own issues as opposed to what he (or I) is talking about. He thought she was intelligent and intuitive as well. But burnt out.

Did he tell you if this was accurate or not when you were in couples therapy? Sounds like such a great topic to go over in therapy when you both are there and the T can help manage this very important conversation. It would be hard to never bring this up with him and always have it hanging over your head.

This was about owing him something if I ask him to meetmy needs. I didnt bring up a lot of things. I think we didnt get that far. You know what, I didnt trust dt in some ways when we were in couples therapy with her. I did tell her at one point I wanted her to be more actively involved in the conversation instead of listening so much. She didnt do it though. She was on my side, but I think she had this image of my h that he would walk out, get defensive, or shut down with too much pushing. He wouldnt. He might get defensive at first, but he would definitley be willing to listen given a little time. He has to process a little before he changes his mind. But he does change course if he sees that he should. Im not with dt and I havent brought up couples therapy with ftt. So, we arent doing any work now. I wonder what he would say if I told him that about me owing him something without a therapist there. I can try and see what he says. I think that issue goes deeper than a single convo I can have with him though.

[quoteThis sounds like a very practical issue to work on. I so admire you for talking about all of this with your H and actively trying to work on it.[/quote]
We have talked about me feeling dismissed and unloved if he is busy and sharp with me. That came up with dt a couple of times. He isnt as sharp, but he can get busy and I am more likely to not be so concerned with me and my emotions and noticing that HE is busy and stressed. The issue gets fuzzy when I am overwhelmed in the house, especially at dinner, homework and bedtime with all of my kids and he is busy and strressed with work. I need help in the house with everything and he cant help me. I get annoyed at him for not giving the family time at that hour. I expect time from him when, possibly he cant givie it. Or he just needs to organize his time differently. It can get real crazy here, especially if the little ones get cranky, dont cooperate and are having meltdown while the other kids need quiet for homework and piano. OK- I can go and on....

Although I've said things like this is a great thing to work on in couples therapy, there is so much about relationships that one can work on individually too, some of it very deep and going back to childhood. I wish that when my H refused to go to marriage counseling with me, that I had gone to marriage counseling for just myself. I didn't know back then that a person could go to individual marriage counseling. I have learned a lot in individual therapy about how to have better relationships and I think even just one person learning some of these things can have a beneficial effect on the marriage.

I agree. It strikes me, Sunny, how fortunate the next person you choose will be. You have so much to give and so much to express. Empathy and the ability to listen and truly hear another person the way you do is rare indeed. I think how sad it is for your ex to have a this lovely gem in his life and to throw that away. Do you think about moving on? (Sorry if this is this too personal....)