I Feel Like A Worm

I feel like I've been (and am) a bad patient in therapy. My t tries so hard to help me, but i don't seem to appreciate it the way i should. I mean, i do appreciate it alot, but i always seem to get offended or hurt or upset with things she says or does (or doesn't say or do). It's not like I'm horribly argumentative or anything. But I can't seem to just go with the flow and get the good feelings and benefits from what we're doing. I seem to always be in some kind of pain and having a problem, and even though we work hard, it seems like i can't get past some of my big hurdles, like trusting enough to let down my armor and be more real with her, or getting past the transference so that i can see her how she really is, instead of getting hurt because i take things the wrong way or interpret what she did as being like what happened to me with mom as a child.

Also, whenever we start really working on my traumas, i get overwhelmed so easily that i have trouble tolerating the pain, so we never seem to get far with it. We have done skills building, and i am able to use skills in my daily life when i get triggered. But when during the trauma work (EMDR), it gets too intense and i can't seem to deal with it well at all. I try to stay level but i start feeling pulled into the past and begin losing it. My t doesn't feel comfortable offering physical comfort, and i get feeling that the trauma is happening all over again and i can't escape the pain. Then after doing EMDR, i feel retraumatized and have trouble the following week with intrusive thoughts and feelings about my trauma, and i end up needing more support from my t than usual. So we've pretty much stopped even trying to do trauma processing.

We've also tried some other kinds of therapy over the years that were only marginally helpful, like covering some stuff in a DBT book. I just feel that things don't work for me that we try, and i don't know why! I know it probably sounds like I'm just not trying, or don't want to heal. . .or that my t is not effective, but neither is true!!! She is very knowledgable and compassionate and hard working with me, and i truly do put forth so much effort to try to analyze and understand what's going on with me (maybe analyzing it too much). But I dunno. I just can't "get" where it is that i need to go, and i don't know why. In the process, i feel like i'm wearing down my t.

Last week when we were talking, I noticed she had a very sad look in her eyes. She didn't say anything, but i have a way of picking up emotions from people. I really, truly believe that she was feeling sad because i'm in so much pain all the time, but she doesn't know what to do anymore to help me. I know i'm guessing, but i really think that's how she is feeling. I still am picking up on the feelings today, or at least it seems that way.

I left the session feeling like a worm, and still do, because i think working with me is a big drain on her resources. I've probably made a mistake in not telling her more often how she has helped me, and how my therapy is helping me in the real world. I can come up with several ways it has helped me this past year. But since we always talk about my problems, i just don't seem to bring up my progress, plus it's hard for me to brag, and i also worry that if i tell her what has been working for me, she will think i don't need therapy anymore, and i will lose her help. Maybe i should go in there next week and tell her anyway how she has helped me. I just feel like, for the many years i've been in therapy, i should be farther along by now, and i don't know why i am not.

I also have some dissociation problems, what i would describe as "parts" of me that feel conflicting ways about things, and being this way makes our work hard because i'm so changeable. One session i might be feeling really connected and that therapy is going well. A few days later, i might be upset with her for something or just feel disconnected. So often, one part of me feels this way, but anothe part of me feels that way. I know it makes it hard for my t to know what i really need from her, or what would be the best way to move forward, when i don't seem to have a good sense of myself to start with.

I'm still committed to working in therapy, as is my t. But i just feel frustrated today about why it is so complicated and hard for me to make changes and heal. Why i am so SLOW in making progress. And just feeling down about being a drain on my t. I guess i feel alot of shame because i catch myself, very often, when i think about therapy, feeling upset with myself and feeling like i should apologize to my t for being the way i am.

If you have read this whole thing, i'm so grateful, i know it's long. I think i'm just reaching out for some way to understand what's going on for me.

So you are stuck in your loop of trauma, not trusting, and transference? Maybe focusing on the positives would be a good "rut buster"? Are you going to tell her how she has helped you?

peaches, I read the whole thing, and my heart goes out to you. I saw a lot of myself in your words. I wish I had some answers for you, I just see a lot of my own problems & struggles & questions there, so I can only offer you hugs & support

Don't worry about your t. She's a professional. You are not in charge of making her feel better.

There isn't a timeline on healing. It takes as long as it takes. Be patient with yourself.

Honestly, trauma work may not be necessary. If you are being retraumatized, it isn't doing you any good anyway. What is important is that we understand why we think and behave the way we do NOW. Sure, that will be tied to your past, but that doesn't mean we have to remember everything about our past and we certainly don't need to be retraumatized by past memories.

Instead of focusing on what you haven't done yet, take an inventory of what you have learned about yourself and your behaviors. Those are positives in your therapy. Acknowledge them to yourself. That isn't bragging. That's giving yourself credit for very hard work.

Peaches,
I was in a similar situation with my former T, but unlike you, I was unaware of how I was. My T did get to the point where she questioned whether she was helping me or just allowing me to stay stuck in pain. She even insisted that I tell her at least one positive thing going on in my life at the beginning of each session. at first I was upset at her for making me do that, but then i realized that in doing that i was able to see that there were some positive things in my life and i learned how to stop focusing on the pain 24/7.

But, there came a point where my T realized that she had done all she could and that I needed to move on to another therapist that could help me move on from there. I never thought i could make that kind of change, but it was the answer for me. If you feel that you are not able to make enough progress with your t, perhaps another T could help you better? I know you probably don;t want to hear that, but you have seen her a long time and still can't work through the trauma without feeling retraumatized. That was my problem, I just kept getting stuck in the pain with my former T, and I had no skills to help me cope. DBT helped me to develop a core set of coping skills that I could use so that I could work through the trauma. have you tried DBT? It sounds like maybe you have done DBT but that the skills do not work for you. The T that i have now (I've been with her for a long time too) really helped to coach me in the moment of distress when I got stuck in states of extreme pain. It also helped me to shift my mind to wanting to make it work. There was a part of me (however small) that was afraid to get better for fear that I would lose help. I have found my T is more willing to help when she feels that she does help.

And I did not lose my former T, we stay in touch through email and she still cares very much about me, but she is no longer my therapist. I was able to taper off with her while building a new therapeutic relationship with another T. I did not feel a traumatic loss because it was a smooth transition, and my new T had a very different style, which helped me more (even though I didn't think i would like her style in the beginning). and I was extremely attached to my other T, EXTREMELY!!! Her style included lots of physical comfort, but it didn't help me. So be careful what you wish for. Sometimes what we want from a therapist is not what we need (I think imapatient said that in another thread) and that is very true, but hard to believe!

((((((((((peaches))))))))))

Well, I can relate. I’m so sorry you’re frustrated by your lack of progress – I feel the same way and then often blame myself for not trying hard enough, for not being brave enough to make the changes I need to make. That is a distortion, a lie my mind is telling me. I try very hard, and spend a lot of time trying to figure this all out. And clearly you are the same. You want so much to get better, but there are a lot of road blocks. I know it’s hard not to blame yourself when treatment isn’t working, but there are always new approaches to try, and something is bound to work. Like TayQuincy said, possibly moving to a new T would be better if the current one hasn’t worked out. I know that’s hard because of attachment but doing things as TayQuincy did (very healthy transition!) may help you if changing Ts is what you decide to do.

I think what helps me is looking at ways I could actually measure that change, concrete goals. How can you know if you’re progressing if there’s no way to measure it, you know? I have social phobia, and one of my concrete therapy goals is “make two friends I can comfortably invite out to coffee.” When I can do that, I’ll know I’ve progressed. Also, it gives me something to work toward, so I know the path I’m on and don’t feel like I’m in therapy limbo. Maybe there is something concrete that will show you that you’ve made progress?

I think one big thing that might be halting your progress is your fear that if you get better, your therapist will want to terminate with you. Maybe it’s not the main thing in the way, but I know it’s been one of my major roadblocks. But I’m starting to see past that fear because (1) if I’m still this afraid of terminating with my therapist by the time I’ve “gotten better,” I haven’t gotten better enough to quit therapy, and (2) there are always things to work on, and if you recognize them and present them to your therapist, she will not terminate with you as she will see the benefit therapy can still have for you.

Many hugs. Let us know how your next session goes, okay?

Peaches, I read all your post and felt myself nodding with you...does it feel as if something is just out of reach???

Sannah,

Yes, I am. My t deserves to know that her help has amounted to at least something! The end of the year is nearing also, and that's always a good time to review the past year's work and evaluate any change that has taken place.

Zooropa,

Thank you for reading and responding to my post. It gives me some comfort to know that i'm not just crazy. . .and that somebody else can relate to the struggles i have. Thank you for the hugs and support.

Hi TayQuincy,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. You brought out a lot of good points. Frankly, though, your reply scares me to death. The reason is because i am SOOOO attached to my t and the thought of her not being able to help me anymore -- and needing to find a new t -- grieves me deeply! I don't think I could bear to do it! I have been with her for a long time, and she means so much to me! On the other hand, i know that if it becomes apparent that she really can't help me get through the barriers, i should consider changing t's. I guess i just don't think that my t is the problem. I think it's me. . .I'm treatment resistant or something.

There have been 2 or 3 times during the years i've worked with my t that she has questioned whether she has enough skills to help me with my issues. What makes me such a hard client, I think, is that I have very thick defenses, a definite "come close, stay away" type presentation because of my great desire for/fear of intimacy, and also my issues are a mix of depressive/GAD/BPD/PTSD symptoms, and i also have mid-level dissociation (perhaps DDNOS, but not DID). So i run the gamut as far as my issues are concerned. . .I am not an easily diagnosable, treatable, neat little package. I'm psychologically messy.

I also tend to stay in my head alot to avoid my emotions. So i often can't access my feelings in therapy because i either feel completely numb to my feelings, or they break out like a dambreak and are way too strong. It's hard to process anything when i'm on each far end of the spectrum. I also dissociate during trauma work or when under too much stress, and that makes me fluctuate from being a rational, calm adult to acting and feeling like a scared, vulnerable, needy child. So i feel like a big tangled up mess. I think that's why my t sometimes questions if she knows enough to help me. I just don't think i could switch t's! I think it's awesome that you found the strength to change when it became necessary. It sounds like your t really helped you during the transition and made sure you could still maintain some sort of relationship with her. If i had to change t's, i know i would need that too. I've told her before that when she retires (probably in the next year or two), i really couldn't tolerate the idea of never seeing or hearing from her again. She did indicate that we would still have some occasional contact (email or phone).

I like your idea of telling your t one thing each week that was positive in your life. I really should try this because i notice than if all we do is talk about pain and problems, then all i think about and feel is pain and problems. Almost 24/7. Just like you did.

Regarding DBT, I actually took the DBT classes, but during that time, the instructors changed three different times. We were always in transition, and none of the instructors required us to do the homework. When we did do the homework, we never got around to talking about it because we would start every DBT meeting with a check-in. Almost every week, one person or another would be having a crisis, and we would end up talking about their problem for the first 2/3 of the class. Then the last 1/3 they would introduce a new set of skills. So it never "came together" for me enough to work. Awhile back, my t and I started going through a DBT book together, but we only got halfway through and then ended up going a different direction. We never did get back to it. I've thought about telling my t that i want to go back to spending part of our sessions discussing the DBT skills. Our problem in therapy has always been in trying to decide "what" we should work on first, due to my many issues. Sometimes, it feels as if we chase after one issue, but get sidetracked onto a second, then maybe start into a third before issue one comes up again. Like we can't "complete" anything.

I am curious to know how your first t and second t differed. Why was your first t unable to help you more? What's different about t No. 2 that has enabled you to move farther ahead? I'm really curious. I also wonder since you were so attached to t No. 1, how were you able to emotionally handle the switch? Was email and touching base by phone enough for you, or did you grieve and feel the loss deeply? And if so, for how long was it really hard? Just wondering, in case i ever have to do what you did.

wow, this sounds so much like me that I'm just...I never imagined there were other people out there with the same mixed up, "messy" mix of symptoms/emotions/brains/disorders/whatevers that I have, lol!

About your experience with DBT, I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. It sounds like they were very unorganized and ineffective. I guess I'm realizing how lucky I was to go through DBT with my T who is an excellent group facilitator & really kept the group on track, stuck with the schedule & homework assignments, etc week after week. Is there any way you can do DBT again in a different setting? It helped me SO much, it really gave me the tools & skills that saved & changed my life. I truly believe I wouldn't be alive now if it wasn't for DBT.

I know how scary it is to think of losing your T. I was also extremely attached and couldn't even think about switching to another T. Remember that every situation is unique. My T is the one who decided that she had done all she could for me. My T was also very attached to me and told me that she loved me. She still says that she loves me in email. But all the love and caring she gave did not help me enough, I needed something else. And I'm not saying that she didn't help me. She helped me tremendously! But I needed different help as I moved on through stages of healing.

Your DBT sounds so different than my experience! There was no talking about individual crises, it was skills training and we talked only about how we used skills during the week and learned new skills. My DBT facilitator became my individual therapist, and so the transition was smooth when I stopped seeing my old T. I had known my new T through the DBT group. As I tapered with old T, I began to see my new t (the DBT T) and worked on the trauma. I liked her and was already attached to her as well.

My new T is DBT/CBT oriented, while my old T was more psychodynamic. I resisted even trying DBT for a long time...I wasn't very open to behavioral type therapy as it sounded so cold compared to how therapy was with my old T. But my t isn't cold, she is a bit tough but in a good way.

I also have the complex mix of diagnoses...PTSD, BPD, DDNOS, major depression etc.. With old T, I was almost always in a regressed child state. I viewed her as a mother figure and it was hard to relate in therapy any other way. I dissociated a lot because I didn't have the skills to cope another way. My new T (she's not really new, but you know what i mean) treats me in a way that makes it difficult to see her as a mother figure. She self discloses and makes me feel like we are not really all that different from each other. It's hard to explain, but she is very different from my old T. She does allow some physical contact if i ask for a hug, she is okay with it, but generally we relate adult to adult. At the same time, she is available if i need her 24/7, which is what i liked about DBT. As a child, no one was there for me when I needed them, and it is so nice to have my T there if I need her. I think I need her less just because i know she is there if I do need her.

I didn't really feel that much grieving when I made the transition to new T because we still stayed in touch, much more then than now. And like I said, I was already attached enough to my new T. My new T is really an expert at trauma work through exposure therapy for PTSD. She didn't even think I had BPD, but rather PTSD that looked similar to BPD. I have worked with her for 7 years now, and we are going to end our therapy at the end of next year. I hope I will be ready then, i feel like i will be though. i never thought that I would ever say that.

Remember, everyone's experience is different and only you and your t will know what's best for you.

(((Peaches)))) When I read this I felt as if I could have written it. I also often feel like a "stuck" case. And its just a matter of time before ftt finds out nothing will work. She'll look at me sadly, and I'll know I just go too slow....or I dont move at all. Its as if I want to stay in one place. I just KNOW that sad, silent face from a T. HOw frustrating it must be for them. I am a therapy failure. I can so relate to everything you wrote.

I dont have any wise words.....it takes time for both of us. I also dont do well when I dig deep and I have to go so slow it makes me feel like what is the point? I guess the point is the we dont give up and there is hope that eventually......some light at the end of the tunnel.....

((((((((((peaches))))))))))

you did just give your t that lovely card you made so i'm sure she has some idea how appreciative you are of her. one thing my t had us do in our artist's way class was to start writing a list of our successes/things we are proud of that we've accomplished. i found it really helpful to do that even if the successes seem very small. it was quite encouraging and helps the old Critic to shut up. she said it's not a bad habit to keep up either. hmm...now i need to start doing it again.

Farmergirl,

What you mentioned has me thinking. . .maybe I would be better off not trying to process my past traumas. In some ways, i feel like i need to, because i get triggered so often in the present. Like for example, i had alot ot trauma as a kid where i needed help and didn't get it. . .and felt unworhy of being helped and invisible. . . so today, i end up feeling horrible pain and overreacting when something happens that brings up those same feelings in me. My t seems to think that processing the trauma in the past will make me stop being triggered now.

But it's just so emotionally painful to revisit my old traumas. It was a very bad experience for me to "go there" and then be paralyzed by the pain. I realized i couldn't bring myself out of it, and my t didn't feel comfortable providing physical comfort that would have brought me into the present and made the pain more bearable. Since then, i've just not been willing to go deeply into those painful places again. It hurts too much.

Hi Jexa,

Your post made me feel a little better. You acknowledged that i want to get better and am really trying, but there are alot of roadblocks. I think that's alot of the problem. The roadblocks are all lined up, and once we get past one, there's another to get over.

I thought about changing t's, but i honestly don't want to. I'm just too attached to my current t. Plus, it has taken years to develop enough trust in her just to start to be vulnerable and open. I don't want to start all over from square one with somebody new.

But i like what you said about having concrete, measurable goals. Very specific ones. I think this would work for me because i get very down on myself about not being able to do more faster. If i set goals, i'll be able to see that surely i've made some progress, even if i haven't been able to accomplish all i wanted to do over the year. My t and i talked today about what i've accomplished this year in therapy, and i was actually able to come up with some things i've progressed on. My t also said i have made some good progress. So the problem may be that i am just never satisfied with my own efforts. At home as a child, my parents thought i was lazy, and i never felt like what i did was ever good enough. So i tend to see myself that way now.

The biggest hurdle i have in therapy now, my therapist said, is that i feel i can't ask her for what i need (or ask others in my life for support). She acknowledged that she made a mistake in the past when i wanted a hug and she didn't give me one. She said she had been overly cautious. She knows now how much vulnerability and courage it too me to ask for that hug, and how her not acting on my request (repeatedly) felt every bit as damaging as in my childhood, where i needed comfort from my parents and did not get it. It felt like a recapitulation of being in pain and need, and everybody ignoring it and letting it happen.

I appreciate that she understands how much pain this caused me and that she apologized. But having spent years building up the courage to ask, and then having my need go unmet, has caused me to go all closed up into myself again. i honestly don't know if it's possible for me to make myself vulnerable to her again. I know it's not fair to her. She did apologize. Everybody makes mistakes. But i just can't take the chance again. I feel like i got fooled last time. As the saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on you. But fool me twice, shame on me." I would rather just deny or suffocate my needs than to feel powerless and at anybody's mercy like that again. Somehow, i have to get over feeling this way, because it will stand in the way of my therapy.

As I see it, all you can ever process is whatever's there for you in the present. If you've been triggered then you experience for a while in the present whatever that brings up for you. If memories from the past do come up for you in the present, they're fair game for processing. If not, you could (if you're willing) do various things to invite them but I see no point in chasing after them before they've made themselves known.

This makes so much sense - I never thought about it exactly this way before.

When I see T, we deal with whatever I feel "pushing" at me. If I'm triggered, or flashbacky, or whatever, we deal with the trauma stuff. If parenting is stressing me out, we deal with parenting stuff. If I'm anxious, we wonder why and talk about that. Etc, etc, etc.

I guess that's why I've never understood when people say "T says we'll start trauma processing next week". Now I understand why I don't understand that!

I did some trauma work very briefly with my t. It was really only a telling of my story. It was difficult, but he did a really good job of keeping me present while I remembered. Once I had done that, there really was no reason to keep revisiting the past. I know all I'm going to know about my past. I'm not going to flail myself into trying to remember all the details. It really isn't necessary for me.

My t helped me put that old cr*p up on a high back shelf in my closet. I don't need to obsess about it which is what I would do if I kept looking at it. I know enough to have an understanding of why I do what I do, why I think what I think. Every now and then, t will talk to me about my past, but not in a "revisiting" kind of way. Just as a reminder of where my thinking comes from, particularly when I'm not thinking straight. I'll tell him, "I don't want to go there," and he'll tell me "no, no. We won't go back there, we just need to see where today's thoughts are coming from." I don't ever have to look at all the gorey details. That's not important to who I am now. It isn't repressed anymore. It's just put where it belongs -- in the past.

that's just it Peaches. It takes as long as it takes. I;ve had this conversation with T many times (incl just recently). Change can be anywhere, anytime; you may not notice it just now.
Great idea to ask yr T to tell you what changes she sees in you.

((((((((((((((( peaches )))))))))))))))

this is basically what my T has said to me, and it's a little confusing to me, too. She said she will ask me if I'm ready to start doing the trauma work, and if I am then we'll start the following week. And I kind of thought "wtf? If I'm ready when you ask me we better do it then because I might not be ready a week later" LOL

It's confusing. It seems like anything could come up or be on my mind or need to be dealt with, the way we're doing therapy now. So once we start trauma work, that's it, no more crisis management or processing daily life or whatever?

Melbadaze,

YES, that's EXACTLY it!! Like I'm striving and reaching but i just can't grasp it. And it's so infernally frustrating! My t has always been good about going in the direction that i lead, or where i seem to want to go. But honestly, i don't really know exactly what it is i need, or where i need to go. It's like we jump from this area, to that area, and try this technique, and go hither and thither where i lead, depending on what the current concern or trigger is. But we are trying so many different pathways, and maybe none of them to the end where they lead.

At the same time, relationally, it feels like we are replaying a continuous cycle (always the same) of 1. Tenatively testing trust, 2. Feeling more connected and being willing to share more, being vulnerable, 3. Getting hurt about something my t does or doesn't do, 4. Retreating/pushing away and putting my armor back up. 5. Talking it over/resolving it. Then back to number 1 again. I'm pretty sure i am replaying trauma tapes and the trauma cycle with her, though it is not at all intentional. Somehow, despite her best intentions, circumstances end up where i feel the way i did as a child (rejected, not important, abandoned) rather than having a new experience of feeling comforted and healing. I get worried sometimes that i have a part of myself that somehow is able to set up these instances where the therapy relationship plays out with me ending up feeling victimized. But if so, none of it is at all conscious! It's disconcerting to think i may have a part of myself that is self-destructive and sabotaging like that. How do you stop doing something that you are doing unconsciously???

Hi Peaches, I'm going to address your last post out of its original order:
It sounds to me as if you're phrasing your question so that it'll be unanswerable. How's about if I reword it a bit?

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Revised by Fool Zero
How do you stop doing something that you don't want to be doing?
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I'd recommend that you (a.) watch yourself doing it and (b.) share with your T what you notice yourself doing so that she can watch along with you and you can compare notes:
You might also want to consider the (very strong) possibility that this is not really a circle as it appears to you, but a spiral -- your way of moving ahead. For instance, I suspect that you weren't ready to describe it as you just did after the first time you went through it. Maybe not even after the fifth time.

If the glass be half empty, you're doing it unconsciously. If the glass be half full, you're becoming conscious of doing it. It's your call, like it or not.

I'd say your choices are (a.) to stop thinking it; or if you find you you can't stop, then (b.) keep noticing yourself thinking it and (c.) don't believe everything you think.

Zooropa,

I'm so glad to hear that DBT was a helpful experience for you. I've heard many people say that DBT really made a huge difference for them in terms of healing. Maybe I ought to talk to my t about us going back to where we left off in the DBT book and continuing on. The reason we stopped going through the book was I think that one day, i became angry about something, was in my "child" mind, and called the DBT skills "stupid." I can't recall now what prompted my outburst, but i remember telling t afterwards that i was sorry and that i knew the skills were important and wanted to continue. Apparently, she must not have believed me.

Actually, now that i think back on it, i do remember what had happened! We had tried doing some trauma work, and i had gotten stuck in a flashback/child place, and t had said something to the effect of "access your adult self and your DBT skills to bring yourself out of it." Not exactly those words, but that was the implication. I remember feeling extremely frustrated because whenever i'd go into that flashback/child state, i wouldn't have any awareness of the adult side of me, or even be able to recall DBT skills to mind. And in trying to explain my frustration to my t, and explain why i could not bring myself out of the flashback state, I had called the DBT skills "stupid." Anyway, I wasn't really angry at the skills. I was angry at the fact that i was unable to access them when needed, and frustrated that i couldn't seem to make my t understand that i did not know "how" to be in my adult mind at the same time that i was in my child state.

Now, however, i've made a bit more progress in being able to hold both parts of me present at the same time, so accessing the DBT skills when i have a flashback/regression might work better for me. I'll talk with t about this.

peaches, i wonder if your t is in some way reinforcing a sense of failure or frustration for you when she seems to continually try different techniques and then abandons them at your first sign of frustration or upset. i think your t may need to help you get thru these hard places rather than keep setting you up for failure by abandoning the work once it gets difficult for you even if you protest. maybe you need to go at a slower pace but continue to go thru whatever the issue/work is. i really think this could possibly be a lot of the source of your therapeutic troubles and it is something your t is causing--not you. it's almost like she can't tolerate your upset feelings and pulls back on the work. i'm sure she doesn't want to see you go into a crisis but i do think she may be re-injuring you by this. she needs to be your rock and cheerleader telling you you can do the work rather than reinforcing a sense of failure that you can't do it. rather than believing in your strength it sounds like she is believing in your weakness and that is very damaging. if any of this resonates and i haven't totally misread your situation then i think talking with t about this could be quite helpful.