[BlueMoon6]

I posted earlier in the week about my session, although I cant say it was difficult (or maybe I am minimizing it so I am in less pain), so much came up in the session about my relationship with my mother. And my body and food. I am remembering more and more. And more. I had a tantrum mon (or tues?) night and I felt awful and apologized to my family and my kids. I felt so out of control I cant even describe it. It as if I watch someone else do these things and feel so powerless. It takes every bit of energy to come back to myself, and when Im in that state, I cant.

Im feeling better and better as the week goes on, more clear about why I am/fel the way I do. But I feel like I have a hair trigger. Twice today my 2 1/2 yo d did not cooperate and I could feel this rage welling up inside of me. I was rougher with her than I would ever be, I didnt hurt her, but was feeling impatient and annoyed. Its as if Im fighting an angry child in me that wants to have it done HER way. I am then fighting my 8 year old AND my 2 yr old. I was feeling so overwhelmed in those few moments that I had to focus all of my energy on being an adult, even if I couldnt be a good adult.

After the session, I think I posted about it, I have been terrified to eat more and continue toward a higher goal weight. It feels way out of control and my weight dropped back down to 111. Im feeling like if I cant be successful with my weight or my relationship with food, I cant be successful with anything. Which I know isnt true, but it feels true. This is such old stuff from my childhood. That was how i was treated, if I was not successful in being the doll they wanted, I was a failure. I was a source of shame for them unless I allowed them to use me however they wanted.

I must be angry about that. This rage has been coming out all over the place this week. At myself mostly, I get annoyed if I cant get my own boots on fast enough I feel like an annoyance to myself. It must be childhood anger, or how I was treated, or ????? I remember as a child being always enraged at myself. UGH! I cant even write anymore about this.

[zooropa]

It's good that you're noticing it, blue, and writing about it here. Figuring out where the anger is coming from will come, but giving yourself space & time to feel it is a good beginning. Thinking about how it relates to your childhood, and how it all comes back to your control issues now, that is DEEP, HARD work. You're doing a great job!!!

[theave]

I think that feeling and showing anger can be part of the healing process, especially if it's not something you're used to expressing. It was quite a revelation for me when I felt angry and said so instead of swallowing it down. Take care.

[mixedup_emotions]

I am dealing with a lot of anger right now too...and I am confused by it, uncomfortable with it, etc. It was a big topic in my session with T today. He feels that it's "where I am"...and that the years of repression and not allowing myself to be angry leads me to having a "lot of catching up to do" with anger...and unfortunately, the underlying people that I am angry with are unavailable.

At the moment, my anger has been directed towards my ex-husband, which is not productive...but at least somewhat appropriate because of some recent poor behavior of his (like hitting on my 18 year old niece or lashing out at me)...but it is with more ferocity, because apparently it's what I need right now.

Better my ex-husband than my daughter or other loved ones...LOL.

[BlueMoon6]

I think you are right, that feeling and expressing anger is good for me, but when I do, its rage and out of control. I wish I could do "controlled anger" ???? Not triggered anger. Its as if I go from feeling fine and triggered into rage in a split second.

MUE- I think that your ex's behavior would majorly trigger me, too. I guess its true, yrs of repression leads to, I guess, anger inexperience. We dont know how to do appropriate anger? Even if the people we are angry with are no longer available or alive. Im not even sure what approprate anger would look like, but I see people get angry at something/someone and then move on.....it doesnt turn into childhood rage. I guess its not about how to express the anger, but how to get it out and work on what enraged us as vulnerable children.

I was never allowed to express anger, I remember my mother saying to me, "Dont you get angry at me, young lady!" And I wqas real young, far from being a "young lady." UGH!

[googley]

((((Blue)))
Have you tried writing out your anger in a journal. I find this helps me when I can get myself to do it. I try to just do stream of conciousness so that whatever is there has a chance to come out. Sometimes I'm surprised by what comes out. It can give you a safe place to express your anger in a controlled fashion.

[BlueMoon6]

Googley- That is a really, really good idea. There is something about it that scares me, bringing it all up in a stream of consciousness. I feel like I need to beat up a pillow and scream and cry.

Im going to do that (not the pillow beating thing) but write in my journal the way you suggested. And get it all out, whatever comes to mind and whatever I can remember...Im thinking...it has to be a time when I spend a few minutes away from my little ones without being interrupted....

Thanks everyone

[ECHOES]

Sometimes my unexplained anger feels like it has an energy all it's own. Somewhat, but not totally out of my control. It can be embarassing. It very much feels like an acting out of an internal conflict. Sometimes I can see what that is, sometimes I can't. If I can't, then I watch for how it dissipates or gets relieved, because then that is a clue.

It does feel kind of like a temper tantrum. I wonder if it is how a child feels when they are very frustrated but they don't know why. Do children experience interal conflict, I wonder. Gosh, it is so hard for me as an adult..I can't imagine how horrible if must feel to a child to experience.

[rainbow8]

(((((Blue))))),

I also think the anger is a good thing, and an important step toward recovery, as long as you control it, and keep it contained for your sessions.

You said you were going to journal, but not hit pillows. I think maybe hitting pillows or something where no one, including you will get hurt, is a good idea! That's a way to get your anger out safely. Pound those pillows and scream and cry! Or do some physical exercise.

I'm thinking of you--take care.

[tonih]

I am hearing your little person loud and clear. She needs to let go of that anger that she sucked up years ago. Let her have her "fits". Just use a little discretion as to when and where. You might even tell her that she is loved even when she is acting out. She has done you a service by carrying your anger all these years. Take care of her and let her know she is loved. Blessings

[BlueMoon6]

Echoes- That is exactly it- it feels like it has an evergy all its own. I am very much in touch with how it felt as a child to have tanturms. I had tantrums waaay pas the age when kids are "supposed" to have them. I remember how I felt, how it looked lying on the floor up at everything, how enraged I was and even when the storm was over, I felt exhausted, but not relieved of the rage. It was just a matte rof time before I would explode again. It "feels" like another part of me, if that makes sense. And it is HER that has these tantrums and feels so close to that rage. Its as if *I* cannot stop her.
I called ftt last night and left a message. She called me this morning. I felt so much better even hearing her voice. Im surprised I am getting to this place with her, trusting and liking her. She explained a lot to me about how to ground myself and we talked about grounding techniques and breathing. She said the process of working on trauma is long and difficult and the way to handle what comes up for me depends on how manageable the feelings are. It might be a good idea to go up some in dose with my lexipro. We talked about how to try to manage this tantruming 8 yo when I get triggered at home by my kids. To keep in mind that this is not my mother (or father) who didnt listen to me, but they are my children. And while the largest part of me knows that, this small child inside of me *feels* as if I am back in that original situation and I have a VERY difficult time controlling her in those moments. Ftt said this takes a lot of mental energy and as time and, with time and practice, it will get easier to not get triggered, but for now, I need to use whatever skills I have to breathe and talk gently to my triggered child.

I havent journaled about the anger yet. There is something about that that is scaring me. I am afraid of what might come up. Ftt gave me 2 appointments for next week, which will be great. Even though this is NOT the direction I wanted to or thought Id be going in, it seems to be what has come up, so I will go with it.

[zooropa]

I seem to remember you saying you haven't called ftt before, or maybe not much, is that right blue? I'm so glad you did call her this time, and that she called you back and you guys made a good connection when you talked!
I know how just hearing T's voice can be calming, when I call my T sometimes I start to feel better as soon as I hear her message on her voice mail, lol.

I'm wondering, if you don't mind, if you could share some of the grounding techniques your T has talked about with you? This is something I've been working on with my T a LOT in the recent weeks and talked to her about it several times today even. I'd be really interested in having a dialogue with other people here about that if anyone wants to.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by zooropa

I seem to remember you saying you haven't called ftt before, or maybe not much, is that right blue? I'm so glad you did call her this time, and that she called you back and you guys made a good connection when you talked!
I know how just hearing T's voice can be calming, when I call my T sometimes I start to feel better as soon as I hear her message on her voice mail, lol.

I'm wondering, if you don't mind, if you could share some of the grounding techniques your T has talked about with you? This is something I've been working on with my T a LOT in the recent weeks and talked to her about it several times today even. I'd be really interested in having a dialogue with other people here about that if anyone wants to.

I called her once before. I cant exactly remember why, but it was a "support" phone call, I was freaking out about something, Im sure

This time, I was able to do it because I HAD to change my 21st monday appt to a later time or change it to wed. So, it forced me to call and leave a message about that and then I said that I also was having a hard time with anger and that I had this tantrum etc....When she called I was so focused on the appointment and then she said she wanted to get to the second part of my message. I was able to talk pretty freely to her, which I am surprised about. And my 2yo kept asking me to put on Dora for her and then to cut her bangs (!) while I was on the phone and ftt was GREAT about it. Then she quieted down with her tv show and we were able to talk. She told me to deep breathe and she said we will go into the more in session. And to look around me to realize where I am. Look at my children, the things in the room, etc.It works for me b/c I get "disoriented" in the way that I dissociate from myself and my small child gets caught up in childhood rage.
What did your T tell you to do for grounding?

[zooropa]

That's cute that your 2yo wanted her bangs cut while you were on the phone, LOL! They will do anything to get our attention when we're on the phone sometimes, huh?

My T has said the same thing, to look around and notice things in the room, notice the time and what I'm wearing, things that are related to the here and now when I'm caught up in flashbacks. Also tactile things, like playing with silly putty or playdoh, to help stop the body memories.
One thing I've been going through lately is shutting my eyes and not breathing during flashbacks of one particular incident in which I couldn't see or breathe, so she told me again today to concentrate on keeping my eyes open and to Just Keep Breathing!!! She suggested looking at a photo album or scrapbook when the intrusive images get to be too much, although I haven't tried that yet.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by zooropa

That's cute that your 2yo wanted her bangs cut while you were on the phone, LOL! They will do anything to get our attention when we're on the phone sometimes, huh?

It was too funny, first she wanted to watch Dora, then a haircut...OMG! I knew when she walked in the room I was going to have to get creative. So I told ftt and she was great about it.

My T has said the same thing, to look around and notice things in the room, notice the time and what I'm wearing, things that are related to the here and now when I'm caught up in flashbacks.

That is what ftt told me to do, it does work.

Also tactile things, like playing with silly putty or playdoh, to help stop the body memories.

That is something I have not tried. It sounds like it would help...

One thing I've been going through lately is shutting my eyes and not breathing during flashbacks of one particular incident in which I couldn't see or breathe, so she told me again today to concentrate on keeping my eyes open and to Just Keep Breathing!!! She suggested looking at a photo album or scrapbook when the intrusive images get to be too much, although I haven't tried that yet.

((((Zoo)))) That sounds like a good suggestion, ftt has told me to keep breathing, I do the same stopping breathing thing and then I realize Im not breathing. I get flashbacks, if that what they are while driving, Im not sure why, my guess, if I can guess, is that I used to distract myself during csa. Like driving would do. Let me know how the photo album works. Sometimes I get a little triggered by photo albums, sadness for a lot of reasons.

Any other suggestions? Sigh....

[SpottedOwl]

(((BlueMoon)))

Anger is something I've given a lot of thought to -- as a child it was not 'ok' to express my anger, so as an adult when it came out, it seemed very scary and uncontrollable.

The first thing I always try to remind myself is that the anger is there for a reason. Anger is a protector, it is there to wake us up if we are in trouble, or to nudge us to make a change. So often, anger is put off as a 'bad' or 'negative' emotion, but if it is trying to keep us safe, how can we call it 'bad'?

Is it wrong for an abused woman to be angry at her abuser, or is that anger serving to give her the extra energy she needs to get out of a bad situation? Anger, in that scenario is a gift -- because without the anger the woman might just stay in a damaging situation.

It might be interesting to ask yourself what purpose your anger is serving?

As for grounding, a few other suggestions:

I know it sounds strange, but carry a few rocks in your pocket. Something small, any rock that you like. If you feel yourself getting too disconnected, rub the rock. Notice it is there, notice the weight of the rock.

Eat grounding foods. Think of food that is grown in the earth. Roasted sweet potatoes are some of my favorites. Red meat can also be grounding. Food that is comforting and filling is often grounding.

Take your shoes off. If it is warm enough, it feels great to walk outside without shoes and feel the earth on your feet. If not, just take them off in the house and notice how your feet connect to the floor. Place both feet firmly and flat on the floor and notice how it feels. (I find that when I'm ungrounded I will rarely stand with weight on both of my feet..often my body is standing in an unbalanced way. )

If you like plants, spend some time tending your indoor or outdoor plants. Just working with the soil can be very soothing.

HTH

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by SpottedOwl

(((BlueMoon)))

Originally Posted by SpottedOwl

Anger is something I've given a lot of thought to -- as a child it was not 'ok' to express my anger, so as an adult when it came out, it seemed very scary and uncontrollable.

Spotted owl, your response helped me TREMENDOUSLY. I was punished for expressing anger. Really punished. How could parents think this way? Its beyond my comprehension. Any emotion expressed strongly was not allowed in my house. They'd tell me, "Blue, stop talking, Blue, BE QUIET!" But anger especially.

The first thing I always try to remind myself is that the anger is there for a reason. Anger is a protector, it is there to wake us up if we are in trouble, or to nudge us to make a change. So often, anger is put off as a 'bad' or 'negative' emotion, but if it is trying to keep us safe, how can we call it 'bad'?

I didnt know that or ever thought of anger that way. I kind of dont think of emotion that way at all. This might sound really dumb, but hgow does anger nudge us to change? Or keep us safe? I dont understand.

Is it wrong for an abused woman to be angry at her abuser, or is that anger serving to give her the extra energy she needs to get out of a bad situation?

That I can understand, but as a childm what would anger be there for? To give information to the child's parents? And then the information is again invalidated and anger becomes rage? Resentment?

{quote]Anger, in that scenario is a gift -- because without the anger the woman might just stay in a damaging situation.[/quote]
I get this, for an adult. I never thought about anger that way. I can see it serving a purpose for a person with the mind of an adult, someone who can reason and understand, but what about a child? A very young child?
Im thinking how I soothe my children when they are angry or my 2yo has a tantrum. I sit by her, I lie down by her, I let her know Im there, sometmes she is soothed right away and sometimes she has to let the storm die down a bit before she accepts my hug. Maybe as an adult I just need someone to feel with me, to be there with me, not just witness. My 2 yo can tell if Im just sitting with her or feeling with her.

It might be interesting to ask yourself what purpose your anger is serving?

I dont know. I cant imagine that there is a purpose. To point to my childhood rage is all I can come up with. Im lost here with this one.

As for grounding, a few other suggestions:

I know it sounds strange, but carry a few rocks in your pocket. Something small, any rock that you like. If you feel yourself getting too disconnected, rub the rock. Notice it is there, notice the weight of the rock.

Eat grounding foods. Think of food that is grown in the earth. Roasted sweet potatoes are some of my favorites. Red meat can also be grounding. Food that is comforting and filling is often grounding.
Take your shoes off. If it is warm enough, it feels great to walk outside without shoes and feel the earth on your feet. If not, just take them off in the house and notice how your feet connect to the floor. Place both feet firmly and flat on the floor and notice how it feels. (I find that when I'm ungrounded I will rarely stand with weight on both of my feet..often my body is standing in an unbalanced way. )

If you like plants, spend some time tending your indoor or outdoor plants. Just working with the soil can be very soothing.

These are really good suggestions. I am going to print this out. I like the idea of eating grounding foods, like crunchy salad. I noticed if I drink a cup of decaf coffee (which I dont do that often, I drink tea) it has a grounding effect on me. I had a good session once when I brought some with me.

I think feeling the carpet under my feel might be a good thing to do when I am triggered in the house by my kids....which I am now since my 5 yo WONT get into the bath...for the last 2 days and now again today. She isnt ususally like this, but I can feel something welling up inside me and I am not sure whether to force the issue or let it go, the girl needs a bath! Im feeling the carpet and will stay an adult not go into an 8 yo tantrum.
Wow...thanks Spotted....

[Brightheart]

I've always thought of most anger as a defense mechanism. It can mask so many other emotions...such as fear and sadness. It can represent a more intense response to other emotions that weren't acknowledged. It definitely carries a lot of meaning with it. Maybe as a child it was a response to feeling that situations were out of your control and that you had no voice. And when it resurfaces now, it reminds you of the chaos of your childhood rather than the security you should have felt. I haven't read this entire thread (sometimes I like to jump in with my first inital thoughts),but do you feel fear when you're angry, Blue?

[BlueMoon6]

I thought Id post again in my own thread....once again I had to apologize to my 5 yo. I did not handle the getting into the bath thing as well as I could have. I feel out of control. I was able to catch my breath and stop, apologize and then get enraged again. I dont want to do this! I dont want to do this! I am getting angry at myself for getting angry.

Iin the end, I lied down on the floor with her and I said, "Lets forget the bath, we'll do your nails with my special nail polish and then later we'll take a bath." She got up and we did her nails (she likes doinf stuff like this together).

I know I can do better than rage and out of control. I feel fine one minute, but I can fly out of control when Im triggered. I didnt expect this and I am so disappointed in myself that I cant control it.

[ECHOES]

Blue, I admire you so much for how you handled the bath situation, and just how you are working on rage. Shame made me not able to seek help for it, and I will always regret that.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by Brightheart

I've always thought of most anger as a defense mechanism. It can mask so many other emotions...such as fear and sadness. It can represent a more intense response to other emotions that weren't acknowledged. It definitely carries a lot of meaning with it. Maybe as a child it was a response to feeling that situations were out of your control and that you had no voice. And when it resurfaces now, it reminds you of the chaos of your childhood rather than the security you should have felt. I haven't read this entire thread (sometimes I like to jump in with my first inital thoughts),but do you feel fear when you're angry, Blue?

Hi BH- I have always thought of anger that way, too. Or depression as anger. That anger is something that masks other emotions. Is it? Or is it something as basic as fear or love?

It might be fear, but Im not connecting my anger to that yet. I did feel that I had no control as a child and I lived in an out of control environment. I had no control over the situation between my parents and being used as a pawn on against the other. Yes-it resurfaces when I feel out of control here in the house. And I get really triggered/angry. Maybe its fear.

Fear would not be the easy thing to feel when I imagine that things are out of control or my kids arent listening to me. It seems easier to go with anger. Anger is more of a reflex to me. Maybe I feel afraid that I dont know what to do and Im supposed to be in charge. In my house, no one was in charge, I was in charge of myself with no one to guide me. I remember feeling scared and alone about that, but not thinking it consciously, it never would have occurred to me to tell anyone that. I felt way overwhelmed with responsibility for myself and protecting my little brother.

Still, I cant exactly connect it to feeling fear when I feel things are out of control here in the house, or at least, it feels that way to me. When my kids are not listening to me for a moment doesnt really mean out of control. Sigh.....it just seems that way to me.

[FooZe]

Speaking of anger, I've been wanting to run this quote by you guys. It seems right in line with what Brightheart was saying:

Originally Posted by Elysium3006

One thing that we learn in DBT is that anger is considered a secondary emotion. It acts as a coping skill almost for other emotions such as fear, disgust, sorrow, to block a person from feeling these emotions.

So my anger I had towards it really wasn't anger at all, I learned. It was fear!! Fear of failure, fear of something new, and even the fear of getting better, because if I got better, then I wouldn't know who I was anymore. Who would I be without all these issues? It's a scary question for anybody.

(From Post #8 in DBT gives me PTSD, 05-31-2009)

That's what my t always tells me. For me, fear is usually the culprit.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by Fool Zero

Speaking of anger, I've been wanting to run this quote by you guys. It seems right in line with what Brightheart was saying:
(From Post #8 in DBT gives me PTSD, 05-31-2009)

FooZe- Its interesting you quoted this thread, I didnt read it because it seemed triggery to me. I thought it would really upset me. Maybe I should go back and read it.

So....anger is something else, huh? The only thing I can think of, but still not connect with, is that it is fear of being out of control. ANd the fear is a childhood fear.

This might sound strange, but what other emotions could it be? It is from childhood, hurt from childhood at being dismissed? UGH! The only thing that comes up for me is anger.....I cant even connect with hurt or fear....I dont understand this.....

[SpottedOwl]

(((BlueMoon)))

I love how you handled bath time!

It might be fear, but Im not connecting my anger to that yet. I did feel that I had no control as a child and I lived in an out of control environment. I had no control over the situation between my parents and being used as a pawn on against the other. Yes-it resurfaces when I feel out of control here in the house. And I get really triggered/angry. Maybe its fear.

I, personally, see anger as a distinct emotion. Often times when we lash out it can be because we are afraid, but there is something more than just fear involved. Using your example from childhood above, let my try to explain...

You were angry as a child because your parents were using you as a pawn. This is not fear, this is the being inside of you saying 'hey, I'm good enough, and I deserve to be treated better'. Anger provides motivation to act. As a kid, maybe that meant packing your bags and trying to run away. As an adult, if you ever feel like what *you* need isn't being valued (like when you were a kid), you will probably feel that anger again.

IMHO, the main difference between fear and anger is the motivation to make change. Fear pulls me inward, and anger gives me energy to act outwardly.

Im thinking how I soothe my children when they are angry or my 2yo has a tantrum. I sit by her, I lie down by her, I let her know Im there, sometmes she is soothed right away and sometimes she has to let the storm die down a bit before she accepts my hug. Maybe as an adult I just need someone to feel with me, to be there with me, not just witness. My 2 yo can tell if Im just sitting with her or feeling with her.

You *are* telling your kids that they are good enough and that you value how they feel by just being there. You give them the chance to express how they feel, and then tell them you still love them. That is honoring who they are, and it is more than just saying 'there is no need to be afraid.'

I'm so glad my words helped, BlueMoon. I know my approach to anger is different than many, but it has been very useful for me to honor my anger, and not just put it off as a secondary emotion.