[BlueMoon6]

I am not sure why I am posting this, but I'll go ahead and see what anyone has to say.
Usually during the week I journal, things come up, feeling, thoughts, memories and I go into therapy on monday morning with an idea of what I want to touch on. Last week I had some time in the waiting room and made an outline (I was bored).
I have not journaled this week at all, but I have vague feelings of being emotionally "unwell" and trying to keep my head above water. There are things Im doing to take care of myself and doing and eating the things I like (which is helpful for me) but I still feel uneasy. I dont know how to describe this feeling. Like Im on the edge, but not so close to the edge, but one wrong step and I'll be near the edge if that makes any sense.

I am not terribly sure what I am missing. Last weeks session left me with a very unfinished feeling, it was surfacey, but I said I was going to talk about the easy things on my outline first and then move on to the harder stuff. Well, we only very generally followed any kind of outline () and got further in to the here and now topics I neede to talk about. The only deeper part was the meaning of my relationship with desk-t and what I was trying to do by staying there.

I think this need to go deeper into my issues with my mother and the relationship I had with my father feels selfish to me. Like who do I think I am talking about these two wonderful people and here you are, you ungrateful little b**** thinking you know everything. Ewww...but that is how I feel. I want to go there, but I am afraid, not that ftt will judge me, but I will feel awful about myself digging into my parents...who "only wanted to love me." "See how ungrateful and spoiled you are, you are even taking about us when we are dead and cant defend ourselves." "Of course you saw us that way, you only think about YOURSELF!" UGH! I could go on and on and in a very deep way, I believe these words, they dont go over in my head in a "wordy" way, but more in a feeling way. I dont even need to hear their voices in my head, its is so automatic in how I feel about myself.

Ive rambled on enough. I think I am processing the "vagueness" of my week here in my post. Thanks.

i've sort of felt that way blue moon (i type your name and like break out into song..every time..its so good i live alone)...

i know my parents were evil demon spawn. but yet....there is a part of me that feels all of what i have remembered will be counted as false because i didn't give them a chance to say.."no you have lied." like if i went to a psychic they would appear and tell me i have lied..yeah i could be on some fake tv psychic show and my evil dead parents would show up..just my luck!

it's like i have to get their approval first for it to be okay even tho i know i never will..they will never admit anything they did was wrong or that i asked for anything.

so i get your feeling..even my brother and sister would feel the same way..its like i am too selfish for this..its all about me..

well guess what...yep it is. they were evil. maybe my memories may not be etched totally in stone..maybe i can't prove them totally..but i am messed up enough to know something seriously wrong happened growing up..alot. so yeah..it is about me..i can't heal my sister or brother and frankly don't want to..the evil parents are dead...so can't heal them. and they were adults who should have known better.

you have feelings that something just ain't quite right..in law enforcement we called it the "just ain't quite right test...looks like a duck, quacks, walks, etc...then it's a duck." very scientific. chances are your parents would never admit something wrong might have happened..even if it was a little wrong..even if it was a little like say spanking (going for an example here)..because people don't like to be called wrong.

it takes time..what i did and still do when the feeling hits is make a list of what i consider off with me...as compared to everyone else..and then i look at it and say...well obvioulsy something must have occurred for this to have resulted. will i ever have 100% scientific proof..no..just my heart & memories..but thats good enough for me.

things will ease with time....until then do what i do...oh and i avoid those psychic tv shows.

stumpy

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

I think this need to go deeper into my issues with my mother and the relationship I had with my father feels selfish to me. Like who do I think I am talking about these two wonderful people and here you are, you ungrateful little b**** thinking you know everything. Ewww...but that is how I feel. I want to go there, but I am afraid, not that ftt will judge me, but I will feel awful about myself digging into my parents...who "only wanted to love me." "See how ungrateful and spoiled you are, you are even taking about us when we are dead and cant defend ourselves." "Of course you saw us that way, you only think about YOURSELF!" UGH! I could go on and on and in a very deep way, I believe these words, they dont go over in my head in a "wordy" way, but more in a feeling way. I dont even need to hear their voices in my head, its is so automatic in how I feel about myself.

I can relate to this SO much, blue. And in over 2 years of therapy, I haven't really talked about Mom stuff because of this.

I remember finding a journal from when I was 13 or so. My mom was evil. I would write about how that made me feel for a page, but then it would be pages and pages of "but I LOVE her! And I know she is the best mom in the world!! And I am so LUCKY!". I think it's a really hard place to be.

SO. Trying to look at this from the outside and be sane (not easy for me right now )...does it have to be so black and white? Does it have to be EITHER "they were evil" OR "They tried hard and I'm being self-centered"? Can it be "they thought they were trying, but they hurt me" or "sometimes they were okay, but the times they were evil have left me with some deep wounds I need to heal". I think the truth almost always lies somewhere in the middle.

When I feel the way you do after a session...unfinished, and uneasy...I know I need to talk about something different at the next session. Can you print this post and bring it? Talking about your fear of talking about your parents is really important.

to you, Blue. Healing is hard sometimes

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by stumpy

i've sort of felt that way blue moon (i type your name and like break out into song..every time..its so good i live alone)...

Shhh....this is a secret...so do I......shhhhhhh.....

i know my parents were evil demon spawn.

I have to tell you stumpy, you really do crack me up. Even when I am feeling really low, when I read these funny little ditty's it takes me out of head for a moment.....

but yet....there is a part of me that feels all of what i have remembered will be counted as false because i didn't give them a chance to say.."no you have lied." like if i went to a psychic they would appear and tell me i have lied..yeah i could be on some fake tv psychic show and my evil dead parents would show up..just my luck!

it's like i have to get their approval first for it to be okay even tho i know i never will..they will never admit anything they did was wrong or that i asked for anything.

so i get your feeling..even my brother and sister would feel the same way..its like i am too selfish for this..its all about me..

That is exactly exactly how I feel. Can I reach into the bowels of New Jersey and hug you?
I feel the same way, that somehow they will appear to scold me and tell me what a liar I am. My mother especially would never ever say she was sorry for anything, ever. Admit she was wrong? Never in a million years. She is perfect, right about everything and everyone (and you know she has an opnion about everyone) and above any kind of reproach. If she does have to or if FORCED to admit she is wrong, she will collapse into a puddle and cry in her typical attempt to extract as much sympathy for her poor self as she can get from anyone who will listen. Even if she has to exaggerate and lie, she tell the story in a way that makes her not really wrong, just not responsible. "Blue was such a horrid child, how could I have reacted any other way???? POOR ME!"

well guess what...yep it is. they were evil. maybe my memories may not be etched totally in stone..maybe i can't prove them totally..but i am messed up enough to know something seriously wrong happened growing up..alot. so yeah..it is about me..i can't heal my sister or brother and frankly don't want to..the evil parents are dead...so can't heal them. and they were adults who should have known better.

yup, they are responsible and should have known better. Even if they were able to manipulate how you remember events. My brother is the same way. I will forever be the bad girl. I dont want to make him my project, I have my own projects and my own life to lead. He justifies being abusive to me by telling himself how bad I am, too.

it takes time..what i did and still do when the feeling hits is make a list of what i consider off with me...as compared to everyone else..and then i look at it and say...well obvioulsy something must have occurred for this to have resulted. will i ever have 100% scientific proof..no..just my heart & memories..but thats good enough for me.

things will ease with time....until then do what i do...oh and i avoid those psychic tv shows.

stumpy

Did you ever write a letter (no-send, but they are dead...like mine) to either of your parernts? Nothing held back, just a letter with as much detail as you can remember?

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by treehouse

I can relate to this SO much, blue. And in over 2 years of therapy, I haven't really talked about Mom stuff because of this.

I think this is the most difficult place to go. Even with my csa and my father, it is difficult but in a self-worth, shame kind of way. My mother stuff just destroyed who I was and I think who I could be if she had not been this way to me. It is hard, painful and I am surprised by the energy behind the feelings it bringup for me.

I remember finding a journal from when I was 13 or so. My mom was evil. I would write about how that made me feel for a page, but then it would be pages and pages of "but I LOVE her! And I know she is the best mom in the world!! And I am so LUCKY!". I think it's a really hard place to be.

UGH! ((((Tree))))) Its as if you realized that she was doing something very wrong and it hurt. If she was anything like my mother, she had very sophisticated techniques to use with me to absolve herself of any wrongdoing. And to make herself look like a saint. How could you not love someone who loved you SO much and did everything for you? All she ever did was care and try and try and try. All for YOU!

SO. Trying to look at this from the outside and be sane (not easy for me right now )...does it have to be so black and white? Does it have to be EITHER "they were evil" OR "They tried hard and I'm being self-centered"? Can it be "they thought they were trying, but they hurt me" or "sometimes they were okay, but the times they were evil have left me with some deep wounds I need to heal". I think the truth almost always lies somewhere in the middle.

That middle ground comes and goes. When I am angry toward her, its black and white. When I get some distance from my feelings, I can see the middle ground. It is hard and makes me even angry to look at the middle ground when I am in a feeling. But then, there are stretches of time when I am not so angry and I think, she did the best she could for who she was. You can do what you dont know how to do. Or, maybe it is more accurate to say, she had a NPD and it would be too much of a challenge for her to genuinely care, if she even knew how to do that. She knew how to care when it suited her.

And, there is something else. I have not yet felt hurt or sad about any of this. Anger seems to be the easier emotion. Any sadness or hurt feelings feel unreachable and just dead to me. I do not feel sadness or hurt, but I probably did at some young age.

When I feel the way you do after a session...unfinished, and uneasy...I know I need to talk about something different at the next session. Can you print this post and bring it? Talking about your fear of talking about your parents is really important.

to you, Blue. Healing is hard sometimes

Im going to do that. Im going to print this post and take it with me. I have to go in a different direction on monday.
Thanks, Tree

[kitten16]

That comment in your first post about your mother saying you were selfish really struck a chord. Parents accusing children of selfishness always strikes me as beyond strange. My folks harped on that string all the time. The way I see it, the child's task is simply enormous -- survival. And particularly if you're not only NOT getting help to survive, but are being damaged on a daily basis by the people whose job it is to nurture and protect you while you develop, you have to do whatever you have to do.

What does any animal do when it's injured -- retreat and tend to the wound. For the parent who has caused that very wound to then accuse the child of being selfish, when they're just struggling to deal with the abuse -- that is so breathtakingly arrogant and, yes, evil to me. Good word.

[tryingtobeme]

(((((Bluemoon)))))))))
This post struck me when I read it. I have been in this position before. Parents always seem to be such and issues, for me, all the abuse they did to me I hate them for yet, they are my parents and I am supposed to love them and respect them. It's hard to stay one way or the other.

As far as sharing with T. Sharing things can be very frighting, I know they have been for me. I too journal through out the week so I can remember what to talk about in session.

What has worked for me is I always go back through the week (with my journal) and write down on a separte piece of paper, the issues that I need/want to discuss. I will then tell T what is on my list and that I am not sure where to start. Sometimes he will notice a change in me, my voice, posture, anything small from one item to the next. He will then say "you seemed tense when you read....." Sometimes I even notice when I
am readomg it to him what is really pressing at that time.

For my T and I, it seems to be a feel/sensing thing. He will either sense something or I will and then that is where we start.

Don't know if this helps you or not. I hope it does. Take care.

Hi ((((((((((((Blue)))))))))))))))

I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't talking about finding a middle ground as a way to FORGIVE your parents. I am SO not there in my own therapy, and don't even know if I ever WANT to be there (at this point). I'm not ready to think about that.

I was thinking of using is as a way to allow yourself to talk. Sort of a way to answer them back in your head "yes, I KNOW you tried your best...but you did a crappy job, and you hurt me, and I'm telling". That sort of thing.

Just wanted to clarify...

[SpottedOwl]

(((Blue)))

My mother especially would never ever say she was sorry for anything, ever. Admit she was wrong? Never in a million years. She is perfect, right about everything and everyone (and you know she has an opnion about everyone) and above any kind of reproach. If she does have to or if FORCED to admit she is wrong, she will collapse into a puddle and cry in her typical attempt to extract as much sympathy for her poor self as she can get from anyone who will listen. Even if she has to exaggerate and lie, she tell the story in a way that makes her not really wrong, just not responsible.

Your mother sounds like she was very sick. That is not the behavior of a responsible adult, and quite frankly it sounds like narcissism. I don't know if this will help you, but sometimes it helps me to consider my parents were sick. I think of it like a drug-addict -- my mother was 'addicted' to being right. She would seek out 'being right' at all costs, much like a junkie would seek out drugs. When I was able to think about it as a sickness, it gave me the ability to distance myself some. Think 'Intervention' -- we can love the addict, but not accept damaging behavior.

[Sannah]

Blue, I'll bet you will have a very good session on Monday with this.

One thing that helped me was to see that everything that my mom did was to protect her ego. These Narcissists seem to have the weakest egos and for them to even survive they need to focus on it constantly and constantly protect it.

[ECHOES]

Blue, one of my obstacles is that intellectually I reconciled myself to the fact that "My parents did the best they could with what they had." This was the mantra that allowed me to put things aside so I could carry on.
The truth is, that there are many truths. The mantra is true. My experience in my family is true, my siblings very different experiences are also true.
In therapy, it is my time.. for my truth.

I'm sorry you are feeling like you are near something dangerous right now and I hope you feel better soon.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by kitten16

That comment in your first post about your mother saying you were selfish really struck a chord. Parents accusing children of selfishness always strikes me as beyond strange. My folks harped on that string all the time. The way I see it, the child's task is simply enormous -- survival. And particularly if you're not only NOT getting help to survive, but are being damaged on a daily basis by the people whose job it is to nurture and protect you while you develop, you have to do whatever you have to do.

Kitten- I feel that way, too. I think my family used the word selfishness because they had no other word to define my behavior. I was protecting myself, I was very hurt and trying to survive. I had to take care of myself because no one else woulld. I wasnt protected or given a peaceful home. There was no peace. So, they created a wounded child and then complained. And being so self-absorbed themselves, took no responsibility or action in terms of helping me. So, really, who was the selfish one?

[BlueMoon6]

Trying- I like the way your T is right there with you when you read to him. I feel that way with my T now. I can tell she is with me when she asks about a big sigh or sensing how I feel if I get overwhelmed during the session. It makes me feel cared about. I will print out this thread. I feel strange having nothing written down. I am going to see how it goes this way. I have so many pieces of things floating around in my head.

Spotted and Sannah- Ftt has said that to me, that they both were sick people. I had never thought of them that way and they certainly would never have thought of themselves that way! But to tell the story of how they behaved toward me, they both seem very not mentally well. My mother had NPD and I think she as also a "right" junkie. I just do not love the addict and cannot remember ever feeling or thinking that I loved my mother. I have talked about this here and in therapy, I just have no memories of wanting her or loving her. I must have wanted a mother, I just cannot recall it.

Tree- I wasnt thinking you meant forgive either. I dont even go there yet. I dont even know what I would forgive. I can go to the place that she (and he) did the best they could, but forgive is strange. Im not there. I dont even understand forgive. I like the, "Yes, I understand, you tried your best, you did a crappy job and I am telling." OMG! I can just hear her laughing at me. Blech!
And...all is clear....

[mixedup_emotions]

Wow, I am sooo with you on this issue....

My parents were physically abusive towards me...and I resented it and rebelled against them in my teen years. But when I became an adult, things changed - and I couldn't love them more. They are such good people...it's like it couldn't possibly have been the same parents I had growing up.

And now, dealing with the effects of that abuse, I can't seem to find my anger for long because it is clouded by such guilt, loyalty and love for them. Frustrating. And now that my dad is dead, I feel an even stronger loyalty because I miss him so much.

My mom has a houseguest this week, and she was telling him tales of my childhood - and how awful I was.....and they laughed about it. Yeah, go ahead, give me the badge of demon child....Umm, mom, did you want to tell him about how you and dad used to beat me to a pulp? Or, how about the time you stabbed me with a fork? Let's laugh about that, huh?

[BlueMoon6]

MUE- That is intereting to me. What do you think changed?

My mom has a houseguest this week, and she was telling him tales of my childhood - and how awful I was.....and they laughed about it. Yeah, go ahead, give me the badge of demon child....Umm, mom, did you want to tell him about how you and dad used to beat me to a pulp? Or, how about the time you stabbed me with a fork? Let's laugh about that, huh?

It sounds like some anger here! What do you think? I had the same experience- being laughed at and stories of the demon child that I was. I didnt find it funny, I didnt agree with the stories, I thought they were half lies, half truths to make my mother look however she wanted to look. I found my anger (as opposed to acting out) and it feels good to tell the truth. Do you think you would want to go further with what you wrote there about mom laughing at your demon-child-ness? Maybe she created what she is now laughing at. Beating a child isnt going to create a little angel.

[mixedup_emotions]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

MUE- That is intereting to me. What do you think changed?

It sounds like some anger here! What do you think? I had the same experience- being laughed at and stories of the demon child that I was. I didnt find it funny, I didnt agree with the stories, I thought they were half lies, half truths to make my mother look however she wanted to look. I found my anger (as opposed to acting out) and it feels good to tell the truth. Do you think you would want to go further with what you wrote there about mom laughing at your demon-child-ness? Maybe she created what she is now laughing at. Beating a child isnt going to create a little angel.

My T and I explored this a tiny bit in therapy....I just haven't been able to go there fully. Too many conflicting painful feelings to face...

What we came up with was that my parents were not ready to face having a 2nd child so soon after their 1st - and couldn't handle the pressure....and I took the brunt of it. After not getting acceptance early on in life, I became rebellious...and when that didn't work, I went back to being the good girl (as a young adult). And by that time, they weren't under the same kind of stress - being disabled, retired, etc. They actually became dependent on me, and I became the caretaker.

And yes, that was a bit of anger there, huh? It comes in small waves on occasion...but subsides quite quickly, after being taken over by guilt when I remember the good times, the love, etc. especially in my adult years.

I know my T would've encouraged me to say what I posted here to my mom - to throw it back in her face and express the anger - but I know I couldn't do it. I addressed the abuse with her once, and she dismissed it, saying that I asked for it because I never listened. My T was quite pleased that I actually talked to my mom about it - even briefly - and felt that it was huge for me to say it, even if it wasn't received well.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Blue, one of my obstacles is that intellectually I reconciled myself to the fact that "My parents did the best they could with what they had." This was the mantra that allowed me to put things aside so I could carry on.
The truth is, that there are many truths. The mantra is true. My experience in my family is true, my siblings very different experiences are also true.
In therapy, it is my time.. for my truth.

I'm sorry you are feeling like you are near something dangerous right now and I hope you feel better soon.

Thanks Echoes- That is a mantra that speaks to me as well. And I believe it to be true with all of my heart, but for some reason it isnt connected to my feelings....they did the best they could and I can live that mantra until I feel angry about some specific incident. I would like to be on the other side of these feelings and using that mantra and having it be enough for me, but Im not there yet. Im in a feel/dont feel care/dont care state of mind. One minute I am the mantra, the next minute, I am in the anger. And I cant say it is rage at the moment- its sort of a sad anger if that makes any sense. I want to say so many things to her. Especially about my father.

[BlueMoon6]

MUE_ I think it is huge also that you said something to your mom. How was that being dismissed. I would imagine that feelings like those would best be brought out with a neutral person involved, like a T. SHe was abusive and dismissed you again. It gives me the shivers. Im not surprised she answered that way, though. I would not have expected her to say, "MUE- you are right and I have not treated you well over the years and I am sorry. I want to make it up to you, where do we go from here?"

Would you trust such a sentence form your mom? Well, maybe you would. From my mom, Id be sure she was after something.YUCK!

[ECHOES]

but for some reason it isnt connected to my feelings

Blue, yes I meant to imply this but I see I didn't. I don't even feel the anger anymore. I don't have many feelings about my past. The players are all dead. I am left with the effects, the scars, the ingrained and internalized that make me who I am, but not who I want to be. I don't doubt that the disconnection was survival, but it isn't helping me now and in fact is most often a wall of resistance that I chip away at.

I think being a mom complicates things too. I was not the mom I wanted to be and I don't let myself off the hook for that. How do I come to terms with one mom (mine) if I insist on hanging on to guilt about another (me). I just think it complicates things.

[BlueMoon6]

(((((Echoes))))) I have the same situation where the players are all dead and I am left with the scars and the internalized remains of them. I have a lot of feelings though. It seems that anger is the only one I can get to. And I have a feeling it is easier that they are dead- it might be that much harder if I was young and living at the scene of the crime or had to frequently deal with them. Its that disconnect that I feel in myself now that I want not to have. I want to be connected to what I feel in the moment and where it comes from if it is an ancient feeling or a "now" experience, if that makes any sense. There are times when a response to something feels like its a trigger of an old experience and when it feels like it is an in the moment kind of thing.

I think being a mom complicates things too. I was not the mom I wanted to be and I don't let myself off the hook for that. How do I come to terms with one mom (mine) if I insist on hanging on to guilt about another (me). I just think it complicates things.

It does, doesnt it! OMG! I dont think you need to be on a hook at all, my dear Echoes. You have responses to your kids that you were "trained" to have. There is no fault here, just a natural consequence of how you were treated. And Im sure your kids are reslilient. Im sure there are HUGE differences between the way you were treated and what you did with your children. I also struggle with guilt for behvior that I didnt "give" to myself. I inherited it.
I think there are huge differences with the way I am with my children and the way my parents were with me. But, that said, I am still a product of the environment and there are things I have to fight against. Not to rage, not to invalidate, not to be dismissive, even in small, subtle ways. My mother didnt like children, she even siad so, and I LOVE children, especially babies. I see so much possiblity there. I have even had to be reminded that I am not my mother. A strange thing b/c I am very different than her. Though maybe not as different from my dad as I would like to believe.

[mixedup_emotions]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

MUE_ I think it is huge also that you said something to your mom. How was that being dismissed. I would imagine that feelings like those would best be brought out with a neutral person involved, like a T. SHe was abusive and dismissed you again. It gives me the shivers. Im not surprised she answered that way, though. I would not have expected her to say, "MUE- you are right and I have not treated you well over the years and I am sorry. I want to make it up to you, where do we go from here?"

Would you trust such a sentence form your mom? Well, maybe you would. From my mom, Id be sure she was after something.YUCK!

I think I'd pass out if my mom said such a thing, LOL....Honestly, I think she just doesn't see it. My T said not to base my success on the reaction of others, and that me being honest with her - regardless of how she responds - is the success. I didn't continue to bury those feelings.

Of course, it was such a brief conversation, and yes, it wasn't taken seriously by her...but it was something I never thought I could ever ever do...and I did it.

Now, my dad is a whole other issue....Since he passed away and I miss him oh so terribly...and we had such a wonderful, loving relationship after I became an adult...til the end, I can't bring myself to be angry with him. The guilt, loyalty and incredible love and grief just get in the way. That's still a struggle I'm not ready to face.

[BlueMoon6]

Im glad you did it and that you are not basing your success on her (or anyone else's) reaction. That you said it, even if she offhandedly said you "deserved" it, you are able to see the HUGE success in that. And see that your mom just doesnt get it and its OK. Can I give you a hug?

I think if I ever said that to my mom she might even say she was sorry in an attempt to get pity and then overblow her difficulities and make it about her. If she had ever been backed into a corner and had to apologize, the apology is all about her and not who she hurt. And, unfortunately, a lot people, my family included, bought her stories.

Im sorry about the difficulties you are having with your feelings about your father. I can understand this. It is very hard. Im not sure what is getting in the way of me talking about my father, but I cant go there either. I wanted very badly for him to love me.