[BlackCanary]

When I started therapy, I was not terribly comfortable with the T sitting facing me; I felt exposed. After two months, we started to work at a table, me at the end, and him on one side, to my left.
He moved offices in the fall, and there's no table. I've tried sitting next to his desk, but his computer took up most of the space and there was no place to put things down between us. So, finally, I asked if he would simply sit next to me, backs to the floor-to-ceiling windows (yes, a wall of glass in a therapy office....). So, each week I'd pull the chair from the corner and he'd roll over his desk chair.

Today he sat in the chair next to his desk, in the other corner of the room, said "This is where I am most comfortable doing therapy". He said he's a more effective therapist if he's sitting facing me, that's how he was trained.
I thought, what a load of crap, how you are more effective. Can I expect a 75% improvement in quality?
I thought, hey, what about where I am most comfortable doing therapy, it's my therapy!
I told him "You suck!"
Then the bad feelings start - like I was kicked in the stomach. I felt so rejected, like he is turning away from me, uncomfortable to have me any nearer. My head was buzzing. All the stuff I'd brought to discuss was gone, and here we were talking about my T and his boundaries.
I just faced the corner on the opposite side of the room.

Why do I care where he sits in relation to me? Is this about power?
Why do I feel so bad that he moved away from me? I'm pretty attached to this T, but why such a powerful reaction?

He offered to see me tomorrow, but I've got an audition. I booked an appt for next week. Not sure I'll even want to go back then.
Thoughts?

[googley]

I don't know exactly why you had such a strong reaction, but you are probably right in that part of it is a feeling that he doesn't want to be close to you. Could you ask him to move closer to you so that you can still feel connected but he can face you? My guess is that he wants to face you so that he can see your body language. Body language tells a lot about how a person is feeling and if their words are matching what their body is saying.

I had a session where my T ended up leaning forward in her chair. She was trying to make me feel connected to and heard, but for me it invaded my need for personal space (even though she was across the room from me). We had to talk about it the next time because I felt so invaded even though she was trying to connect.

So it is totally normal for you to be sensitive to where your T sits. Talk about it more.

[jexa]

For me there would be multiple things coming up.

There were two rejections here: one was that he moved to sit further away from you, which may have felt like a rejection. Also, he didn't use your suggestion for the seating arrangement. That is a rejection too -- "I don't like your way, I like my way." Also for me there may be some power struggle too. If originally my T had given me the right to tell her, I want you to sit this way, and then changed her mind, I would feel I'd lost some kind of power, like something had been stolen from me. I would feel very defeated from losing power especially because it is hard for me to gain power anyway..

Definitely talk with T about what came up for you here. I know it is hard to be honest when you are angry and confused, but the best way to heal is to just speak up even when it feels AWFUL to do that..

Sorry, Canary.

[jbug]

I know when I first saw my therapist I asked her where she wanted me to sit and she said anywhere and I panicked. I thought it was a test like if I sit here it means this or if I sit here it means this etc.

So now I sit in the chair closest to the door. Anyway I know when my T had to sit in her desk chair after her surgery I didn't like it because I felt like she was too far away from me. I was glad when was able to come back and sit near me. She now is able to sit in the little area next to the door.

I agree with what the others have said that you should talk about it with your T no matter how hard it is. I didn't talk about it with my T I don't talk about everything that I should so I'm not one to talk. But it would be a good conversation.

Jan

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by BlackCanary

I was not terribly comfortable with the T sitting facing me; I felt exposed.

He said he's a more effective therapist if he's sitting facing me,

I felt so rejected, like he is turning away from me, uncomfortable to have me any nearer.

Having your therapist face you is being exposed. When you sit next to him you can hide. To do the most effective therapy he needs to see you. I know how painful it can be to be seen. I had to work through this same issue. Working through it will be very valuable to you. Are you going to talk about this next time?

[Perna]

As Sannah says, you can hide with someone next to you but, also, your T needs to see your face/expressions.

Everyone has their personal distance they like and that's neither right/wrong, just a genetic/built-in/human thing. It sounds like yours might be "closer" than his is.

His training is important and, it's only your "problems" that are discussed in the room so is better if you have a problem :-) than if he does (since that would take away from his attention/abilities to concentrate on you and your problems).

Too much space should not be a particular problem between two people but, as you've noticed it is for you, that should be discussed. It is my experience with therapy that my discomfort is a good indication of what needs to be worked on (I use to "red flag" thoughts and experiences in my head to look at later, when I wasn't in session where it was too difficult at that time to look at; eventually I was able to look at those feelings in therapy, with my therapist).

It is unfortunate that your T just started the practice "suddenly" and didn't "warn" you first or discuss it, after having done therapy in the old office "your" way before.

[BlackCanary]

Originally Posted by Perna

As Sannah says, you can hide with someone next to you but, also, your T needs to see your face/expressions....

It is unfortunate that your T just started the practice "suddenly" and didn't "warn" you first or discuss it, after having done therapy in the old office "your" way before.

I am supremely appreciative of all of your thoughtful comments and observations, it is what I had hoped for in posting here.

Today I feel that it is the disrespect he showed me in not discussing it, not bringing it into the session, that is the most painful. He initiated the session by setting the new boundary. We talked about seating and personal space before, so it would have been simple to start a dialog. There are dozens of ways he could have used, but he didn't. I conclude that he does not care enough to have done it right, that he's not smart enough to have done it right, he was solely focused on his issue and not on the relationship. I interpret "I am more effective when I sit here" to mean "I am really uncomfortable sitting that close. I am afraid you might touch me." So, I feel like he is lying to me, also very painful. It also all hurts because I've gotten so very fond of him, as someone who has helped me to improve my life.

He said he's learned a lesson from this, that he'll always say no in the future if someone suggests alternate seating. This inflexibility is so odd to me, even though I understand good boundaries. He's becoming more rigid over time.

Sitting side by side, we were often turned toward each other, and I was able to see his face, read him. When he's 10-12ft away, I'm not able to distinguish smaller details even with my glasses on. The explaination he provided did not reflect the need to see me/avoid hiding, but that is a good perspective from you all . Sitting at the table, or even side by side, did feel more equal, like we were engaged in the work jointly. In my job, we get around a table and brainstorm; that's what I felt I was doing in therapy about my "stuff".

I feel like he's given me an ultimatum, and I'm reluctant to return under those conditions. I'm the client, the consumer; there are 100+ therapists within 10 miles of my home. Writing all this to you all, it's given me more to think about, and some content I could share with him via email. Not in a forgiving mood now, not ready to reach out and discuss it.

(((((((((((BlackCanary)))))))))))))

There is SO much in your post above to bring to T. It's okay to be angry - really and truly! Can you tell him how you feel - that it was so sudden, that it feels like he's trying to get away from you, etc.? It feels like that is all SO important.

T and I change where we sit a lot, but I get to be in charge of the seating, so it feels safe and empowering to me. If I walked in there and T said, without any warning, from now on, I'm sitting here and you're sitting there, and that's that, it would feel REALLY confusing and invalidating and probably scary. I'm sorry that happened with your T

I know it might feel tempting to start looking for another therapist, but I hope you'll at least go and hash this out with him first. Maybe you'll come to a resolution you can both feel happy with.

[Rozine]

A difficult one. Perhaps this is an opportunity to challenge yourself and step outside your comfort zone. I suppose it's a case of conflicting needs. However I would tend to think if the T thinks he can do his best work for you seated where he prefers then I'd accept that. What makes you feel anxious about someone facing you? Have you discussed that with your T. Also he did accommodate your wishes for a while that was kind. Perhaps it's his turn now.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by BlackCanary

I interpret "I am more effective when I sit here" to mean

"I am really uncomfortable sitting that close. I am afraid you might touch me."

So, I feel like he is lying to me, also very painful.

Sounds like old stuff being triggered ^ ?

Yeah, if he is so far away that you can't see him that's a problem. I can understand why you are upset because it wasn't discussed.

So you want to run instead of discuss this with him? Do you understand why you have the urge to run?

[BlueMoon6]

When I read your post I had a million feelings come up. I had this situation with a T who sat behind a big desk and pretty much gave me the same sentence as your T gave you, "This is where I feel comfortable doing therapy." End of story. Oh, and she did add, "It sets a boundary for me and the patient." I felt awful. Also like I had been kicked in the stomach and I hated her for her rigidity and inability to be close to me. I needed help, not to work around her issues in the room. Now, Im not saying this about your therapist at all, but I learned a great deal about her from this situation. I ended up leaving. And the desk was a red flag for me that pointed to so many other issues with her.

I agree that its a good idea to have a dialog with T about all of the things you wrote. If I had to do it again, I would have gotten VERY specific about why it is important for her to sit on the other side of the moon from me. It made me feel dirty and disgusting. And she expected me to understand.

I agree with you, only because I have been there in a very uncomfortable way just as you are, that he could have handled himself differently and why didnt he? Now, he could really step up and do good work about what this means for you. My previous therapist didnt. She set a boundary and seemed to believe that was what I needed with no uncomfortable explanations on her part. I felt manipulated. And that was certainly disrespectful. I am really looking forward to hearing how he handles this in your next sessions. I learned from PC that there are some therapists that set more "distant" kinds of boundaries and that doesnt make them bad Ts, it just seems to hinge on what you need at this point in time.

I could go on and on...but I wont...what did T say when you said to him, "You suck"? Oh, the things I wish I had said to Desk-T!

Wow!! Your post brought up many things for me also. I think it depends on the T... how I react to seating . I have three T's that I see on a semi regular basis. One is a behind the desk or table T, but her warmth and care have alway made the table nonexistant. Another T is an "up close & personal" T (NOT in an invasive way) We sit like friends discussing our life. She always hugs at the end of a session also. Third T, who I've seen the longest (15 years) began as cold and severe, became more and more warm toward me. He sits next to his desk, in a chair on wheels, so if I need space , he gives it. If I need more caring, he moves closer. All three of them feel "right" to me because of how they come across.
One nightmare T I saw only once comes to mind.... She showed me into her office and before I could get through the door, she told me "THIS is MY chair...You can sit on the couch or the other chair, BUT NOT my chair!" I couldn't move for the longest time and she never seemed concerned as to why. She also bolted the door as soon as I did sit down, which made me want to run.
I wish you felt comfortable talking to T about this cause maybe there was a reason instead of rejection. He should have handled it differently but it never hurts to find out the whole story before you decide to stop seeing him. Good luck.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by BlackCanary

Today I feel that it is the disrespect he showed me in not discussing it, not bringing it into the session, that is the most painful. He initiated the session by setting the new boundary. We talked about seating and personal space before, so it would have been simple to start a dialog. There are dozens of ways he could have used, but he didn't. I conclude that he does not care enough to have done it right, that he's not smart enough to have done it right, he was solely focused on his issue and not on the relationship. I interpret "I am more effective when I sit here" to mean "I am really uncomfortable sitting that close. I am afraid you might touch me." So, I feel like he is lying to me, also very painful. It also all hurts because I've gotten so very fond of him, as someone who has helped me to improve my life....

I feel like he's given me an ultimatum, and I'm reluctant to return under those conditions. I'm the client, the consumer; there are 100+ therapists within 10 miles of my home. Writing all this to you all, it's given me more to think about, and some content I could share with him via email. Not in a forgiving mood now, not ready to reach out and discuss it.

I would gently suggest that you challenge these conclusions that you have come to. While your reactions belong to you and are clearly real.

No he didn't handle this well at all, but it could be for a variety of reasons that aren't related to his caring about you, or his intelligence. Are you sure he has given you an ultimatum? Is it about where you sit, or about where he sits? There is a distinction, albeit subtle, between the two.

I hear you when you say that you aren't in a forgiving mood, but given your fondness for this therapist, would you consider giving him the benefit of the doubt? Therapists screw things up sometimes. They make mistakes. Is this one bad enough to not even warrant talking about and giving him a chance to understand how it made you feel? Give him the chance to apologize?

I found in all relationship there are significant stumbling blocks. These do not have to derail anything or undermine the good in the relationship. As long as each party is heard and is understood, the relationship can actually become stronger.

Please understand that I'm not saying that your feeling aren't valid. Not at all - they absolutely are and they matter. I think he needs to know. Who knows, the results might be very very positive.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by BlackCanary

Sitting at the table, or even side by side, did feel more equal, like we were engaged in the work jointly.

I feel like he's given me an ultimatum, and I'm reluctant to return under those conditions.

Canary, I didn't see this before, but it seems that your reluctance to return and talk to him about this concerns power? You feel disempowered?

[BlackCanary]

You all continue to ROCK OUT with your great observations.

Since he dropped this on me at the start of the session on Tues, we had the whole session to work on it.
when I told him "You suck" he was quiet, then he said "You are right, you are absolutely right."
I told him "you did not just think of this a minute ago. You knew you would do this today and yet you did not try to talk to me, say Here's the situation, or There's something important I need to tell you, any of dozens of ways to prepare me..."
he agreed he should have done this. Told me this was great communication of my needs.
I gave him a "do over" - we went outside the door, walked in again, and he had a chance to say "Hey, today I'm going to do this" but he still did not try to introduce the idea, he just sat in the far away chair.
He asked how I felt, and I told him I was angry, hurt, felt rejected, felt like he is turning away.
He apologized for not handling it better. He told me he'd learned his lesson about seating. Said he was sorry that it's so painful, that I'm having to go back to step one "can we work together". He knows what was on the line, that I'd have to seriously consider if we are still a good fit. We have a rupture history, where I go back to that question.
I know he's human, not perfect. But this is perhaps the fourth or fifth time when, in not minding his boundaries and then later enforcing them, he's caused a painful rupture. I'm tired of having to forgive this in my professional care giver. I should be having a great week, but instead I'm massively distracted and sad. "My therapist hurt my feelings" is a very contradictory statement, one I should NOT be living.
A spouse, sibling, friend - that person would be extending apologies, reaching out ot me, trying to mend the break, making it possible for me to forgive and move on. The T does not do this because that's a boundary, he will never reach out to me. So, it's entirely up to me to engage in repairing the relationship. I'm not going to go back just because I'm fond of him - he's not doing a good job, not meeting my requirements, not working in a fully professional way. (Not managing his countertransference?)

I know that the conventional wisdom is to go back and talk about it - that's what I've done in the past and we've worked thru it. I've reached out - left 2 messages after we met (angry) and another yesterday (calm) to say I would not be coming for the 530 appt he'd offered in case I felt re-railed (vs derailed). I made an appt online for early June.

So, the business nature of it rises up. In my work, I'd be pulled away from further work with a client I'd served so poorly, replaced with someone more effective. In each prior rupture I've considered leaving, and felt our fit and bond was too good to be match by another therapist.

On the lighter side: My husband says I'll be over it in a year or two.

[BlueMoon6]

BlackCanary- First...LOL on what your H said! And...my first reaction is that your T is learning what boundaries wuit him best. I suppose it would depend on how much you want to stay with a T who is a tiny bit floundering himself. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing. Is he a good T in general and your connection is good? How long have you been seeing him?

Calista- Do you really see 3 Ts? And the "MY CHAIR" T would have freaked me out, too. I think I would have spent the entire session talking chairs and boundaries instead of the issues I am there for....unless that is part of the issues I am there for...are you still seeing the My Chair T?

i had a different dilemma happen the last couple of sessions. i always sit at the end of the couch, more so i cannot be seen. it is hard for me to have t staring at me the entire time
His room is arranged so that the two couches are opposite and the two chairs are opposite and last session when i was in the waiting room i heard what sounded like furniture being moved and then when i went in, it looked at though he had moved his chair closer to the opposite couch so he could see me better and then last night again, didn't hear the noise, just showed up a couple minutes late (on purpose~couldn't make myself get out of my car) and his chair was moved awkward again. Part of it feels okay, that he is trying to see body language, because i never look at him and the other part.....don't know yet... still confused??? has anyone had this happen???? i just don't get it?????

[Perna]

I believe everything in my therapy is about "me" :-) just like in my dreams. So, I take what my therapist does as something useful to me and an opportunity to work on a situation from another point of view.

I'm glad you told him he sucked :-) and also glad you gave him a do-over and he sat in the same place and didn't open the discussion! We can't control everything in our lives, all we can do is respond to them, hopefully in a way that helps us learn and grow into being more ourselves.

I wouldn't take my T's actions in a wholly personal way; some of what a T does is "for" us but all of it is their doing so part of their life and 100% theirs. If I believe my T does not feel comfortable sitting close to me, like I want, I am okay with that because that's their issue, not mine. I see my job as being to make myself as comfortable in myself with whatever happens "out there" as I am able. I know and trust my T enough that I assume she is doing the best she can for me, by her understanding and training. That's enough for me. She's going to "miss" sometimes but I still give her full credit for trying.

Yes, it's your therapy and you can walk but what do you gain from that? You cannot ever control another person, even in your therapy with "your" therapist. Other people are and do what they are and do. Presumably your therapist knows himself well enough to know how he is most comfortable and does his best work. One cannot really challenge that because it is about another person's being.

When you mentioned the distance between you and he and how you cannot see him well because your eyesight isn't up to it; I immediately thought of psychoanalysis where the patient does not see the therapist at all, lays on the couch and the therapist sits up behind their head. I often have trouble with "seeing" other people and have to remind myself to do so, to accept that the other person knows themselves better than I can.

With my therapist, when she would do or suggest doing something in a way I didn't think was best for me, I would remind myself that I came to her for help and that she had helped many more people than myself. Too, she had helped them in "her" way whereas I had not been as successful helping myself :-) The clincher, for me though, was that I could go with her and do it her way and maybe it would take longer or be harder but would probably work, OR, I could go my way. . . by myself (and probably get lost as I did not yet know where I was going or wanted to go :-)

It sounds like he's been willing to discuss the mistake and accept the mistake of not discussing what he was going to do before he did it. I think I would accept that and try working his way as hard and as well I could, bringing all of myself in line with that effort.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by BlackCanary

.....I gave him a "do over"

this is brilliiant. I would never of thought of it in a million years. Wow! with that much flexibility at your command I hope you will be able to work out with yr T. Even if it feels like the repair is all on your side, which I certainly can sympathize with.

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

BlackCanary- First...LOL on what your H said! And...my first reaction is that your T is learning what boundaries wuit him best. I suppose it would depend on how much you want to stay with a T who is a tiny bit floundering himself. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing. Is he a good T in general and your connection is good? How long have you been seeing him?

Calista- Do you really see 3 Ts? And the "MY CHAIR" T would have freaked me out, too. I think I would have spent the entire session talking chairs and boundaries instead of the issues I am there for....unless that is part of the issues I am there for...are you still seeing the My Chair T?

Hi Bluemoon
Yes I do see 3 T's, one for meds, one for therapy and one for when I go inpatient or for more intense medication issues.
"My chair T' was a one time consult, thank God!! She has no business being a T. She has too many issues LOL. I went for a DID consult and after my regular T got her report, he (T) wondered about" My chair T's" stability too.

[Mike_J]

My therapist has her chair that she always sits in, in her old office I always sort of wondered what the view was like out the window from where she sat, always wanted to try sitting in her chair once. Well a few months ago I finally got the nerve to walk into her office (new office without the nice view though) and just sat down in "her" chair she gave me a bit if a puzzled look then sat down on the sofa where I usually sit.

Was a strange session but I'm glad I did it...

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by BlackCanary

He knows what was on the line, that I'd have to seriously consider if we are still a good fit. We have a rupture history, where I go back to that question.

But this is perhaps the fourth or fifth time when, in not minding his boundaries and then later enforcing them, he's caused a painful rupture. I'm tired of having to forgive this in my professional care giver. "My therapist hurt my feelings"

The T does not do this because that's a boundary, he will never reach out to me. So, it's entirely up to me to engage in repairing the relationship. I'm not going to go back just because I'm fond of him - he's not doing a good job, not meeting my requirements, not working in a fully professional way. (Not managing his countertransference?)

He wasn't minding his boundaries??? I'm not so sure that he is causing the ruptures?? I get a feeling that you might be because getting closer is uncomfortable? You are really tough ("he's not doing a good job, not meeting my requirements, not working in a fully professional way") and I get the feeling this is a great way to protect yourself.............

And what countertransference is going on?

[BlackCanary]

@Perna, you wrote "We can't control everything in our lives, all we can do is respond to them, hopefully in a way that helps us learn and grow into being more ourselves."

Ah, control, my #1 favorite. Good observation. And I also realize that my anger and sadness about this are like a toxic poison that is harming me.

@Sannah - Sigh, I am really tough. Really, really tough. And he never calls me on it, never gives me that feedback. But I do expect him to be "perfect", to not fail me. Not fail me like my parents, not fail me like other men....etc. I fear that I'll be this tough on my kids, like my mom was on me. I do not want to repeat it.
Agree also that the whole "he's not meeting my standards" thing is a way to exit w/o looking closely, avoid engaging. My way or the highway, buster...

Just to clarify what I mean on boundaries/countertransference. The seating arrangement, next to each other, was my request. He apparently did not like it, was uncomfortable from early on, yet permitted it to go on for months. In not changing it once he realized he was outside of his boundary, he was not keeping himself safe/comfortable. He did not change the situation because he knows it will upset me. He feels uncomfortable when I get upset, so he permits the boundary crossing to avoid this discomfort. This is what I'm referring to as counter-transference, in the broad sense: he is altering his behavior/boundary in session to avoid experiencing discomfort (an emotional reaction to the client). We've talked about it in the prior situations, and T agrees that this is a counter-transference. I've told him before, "just tell me the truth, I'd rather know than wonder!", so feel annoyed that we are back to this AGAIN.

But, like Perna observed, I need to see what I can learn from this (hmm, again he's not keeping his boundary BUT again trying to not upset me !), respond in a way that lets me grow a bit (why am I pushing his boundary? why do I get so upset over this? what arrangement might meet both our needs? And be ready, because it's going to happen again).

Maybe forgive (a bit).
Thanks for the space and the thoughts.

[sunrise]

BlackCanary, this whole seating issue has been very complex with you and your T. It is a big deal. I admire you for wanting to see what you can learn from it rather than just getting pissed off and quitting therapy.

Originally Posted by BlackCanary

he agreed he should have done this. Told me this was great communication of my needs.
I gave him a "do over" - we went outside the door, walked in again, and he had a chance to say "Hey, today I'm going to do this" but he still did not try to introduce the idea, he just sat in the far away chair.

I don't understand this. He agreed he should have handled it differently, but when the two of you "replayed" the moment, he didn't handle it any differently. Ouch. I think he was messing with you. He said one thing, and then did another, leading you on through this re-enactment, only to hurt you again. It would be one thing if he never intended to do things differently, but to say he should have, and then to not do it--what a hurtful charade. If he didn't intend to do things differently in the do-over he should just have said let's not bother because I would do it the same again, instead of this BS about how he should have handled it differently. I would be very angry if my T jerked me around like that. I absolutely detest when people play games like that. If we can't be direct and honest in therapy, why are we there?

I find his choosing to sit in a different place very complex. Is he moving because he wants to face you? Is he moving to be further away from you? Or is he moving to regain some power he gave up early in the relationship (he feels controlled by you)? If he just wants to face you so he can see you better, perhaps it is time for you to try that. You've been seeing him awhile so should have some degree of comfort with him now. But why does he also have to sit so far away if all he wants is to face you? Couldn't he sit closer and face you? It seems very hurtful to put a lot of extra distance between you and explain it by saying he wanted to face you. But how did he explain it?--He wanted to be back in his regular place so he could be more effective. So he has to be in a certain place to conduct therapy. That's kind of rigid, but every T has their quirks. So can your T sit in his special spot so he feels at ease and "effective" and you can move your chair closer to him? That way he gets to face you, you get to be closer to him, and he gets to feel he has power back because he "won" and is in his special spot. So you all get something from this. If you ask him if you can move closer because you can't see him and you feel the distance is so very great, and he declines, I think either he's kind of weird or fighting some kind of "I must have my way or I won't play" kind of battle with you.

I think there's a lot going on with you two.

[Sannah]

Wow, Canary, now I understand things better. Yes, I can see the boundary issue, but I don't see him as doing this for some power trip or jerk you around, I see him as truly struggling with this. Maybe put down your stick and stop beating him so that you two can be friends?