[KazzaX]

Well I am still in therapy and we have come to that stage (that happens every time I do therapy) where the T has no idea what to try next or what to do. There is a window of about 4-5 sessions where we go in there and flounder aimlessly. Then after that, they usually end the treatment because nothing seems to be working.

This is a good opportunity for me to do what good therapy clients do and take control of the session. That is what I usually do. I go in there and say "Right, we need to look at this from another angle" and I introduce something new that the therapist may not have thought of, or what i have come up with, etc. Unfortunately this has never worked for me in the past - either the therapist gets offended that I have taken control of her sessions, or the new angle that I come up with is not useful and we continue floundering (then the therapist terminates me).

I want to take control on my next session - it is time. I need a good angle that will not be useless. How do you know which angles are useful and which are not? Like for example, I'm in schema therapy this time around and my detatched protector mode is just too good. The therapist cannot even get near it. So last session I said "right. This is the issue - how do we destroy the detached protector mode?" and she got angry that i was taking control and the session ended. Why would she not give me that info? Who cares who has control as long as the issue is resolved?? I only do it because it is better than nobody doing it. I will not allow any more "flounder for 4-5 sessions and then it ends".. I am doing what is necessary.

How do you know what is a useful angle and what is not? I think that is my main question here.

Originally Posted by KazzaX

and she got angry that i was taking control and the session ended. Why would she not give me that info? Who cares who has control as long as the issue is resolved?? I only do it because it is better than nobody doing it. I will not allow any more "flounder for 4-5 sessions and then it ends".. I am doing what is necessary.

Session ended earlier than normal or was just bad timing?

I agree -- who cares who has control of the session as long as the issue is resolved. Typically in therapy at the start the therapist has to follow the client a bit to gain rapport and have a good idea of the issues. Then the therapist has pieces of "control" to guide the session in the direction the client has indicated they want. Then the control is always supposed to go back to the client. That's a good thing, because the client in the end is the one who has the answers.

I wonder about talking about this piece of it. Saying "Everytime I get stuck, and take control, T's terminate me. Is that going to be the case here?"

[KazzaX]

You mean talking about it to the T? Or here? I have spoken to this T about it right at the start - i told her about the whole pattern thing that goes on. She just responded with empathy, she wasn't really interested in making a "plan" for when it happens. The impression I got was "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" but the time is here and there is no crossing of the bridge! So I am trying to navigate the bridge but am not sure which angle to come at it from. Not sure if that makes any sense but it kinda does to me! lol

The session ended about 10 mins early that time. Could have been she had to leave early or whatever but who knows. But she was visibly angry (same with the other Ts that have followed the same pattern).

[sunrise]

This sounds like a pattern in therapy that you've identified and want to change? Maybe you could just share this post with your therapist so she can get a good sense of how you view what is happening in your therapy and what has happened in past therapies. It stands out to me that you see therapy as an undertaking where either therapist or client must "take control." I am not sure what it means to take control of a session. I am not sure either my T or I is in control. Our sessions just kind of flow. My therapist does leave it up to me to introduce what topic I want to discuss, as he doesn't know what is most important to me that day, but I am not sure that choosing what we talk about is like "taking control."

I think it would also be informative to tell your T that at your last session you perceived her as being angry when you took control. I wonder if she would agree? If she does, it might be interesting to hear why she got angry. And if she didn't get angry, it would be very interesting to explore why you perceived that she did.

I think there is lots to explore here and a good starting point is to share your post.

As for knowing what angle to take, I just listen to my insides and that helps me know what topic to raise that day. When my T and I were doing ego state work, he had me talk with my protector ego state and try to work it out. (My T is a family therapist and is used to helping family members learn to communicate with each other and work out their differences.) So I can see that if I told my T that I wanted to destroy my protector ego state, he would suggest another approach. My T has a lot of experience so he often has really good suggestions on how to do things in therapy, but I don't find him controlling. I can always let him know that certain approaches aren't working well for me or that a particular topic is one I want to leave alone for a while.

Hope you can have some good discussion with your T on this--the idea that one person must control the session, that your therapy has a certain pattern to it that repeats itself, etc. Good luck.

[KazzaX]

We have already discussed all this many times. She only responds with empathy, which does not help (and i told her this). She says something like "we will cross that bridge when we come to it" and i say "we are on it now!" but its like she does not believe me or something.

I need to come up with a plan that i can introduce by myself, to her. She is the resource, I am the person with the issue. When I say control the session, I mean I say to her "right, we need to do this and this to combat this issue, what resources do you have to assist in this goal?". I figure she is the expert on schema therapy so if I introduce some sort of concept, she can assist me in achieving that goal with her knowledge. I just need the right kind of angle to get my foot in the door

[KazzaX]

I read my last response and it sounded confusing. I will use an example to illustrate it.

Issue: Detached protector mode is too strong to do anything with.
Goal: To get rid of it and replace with healthy adult mode.
Method: (this is where the therapist comes in)

In the method section, when you get to the stage where the therapist has no idea what to do anymore and has given up, this is where I decide to take control and lead the therapy. I use her as a resource and me as an info source. I look at myself and find out what the problem is (eg. my detached protector mode is nearly invincible). Then i use the resource (therapist who has knowledge of schema therapy) to ask "how can schema therapy assist me to destroy the detached protector?". If i do it in a stepwise, logical manner then it takes the pressure off the therapist and gives me hope for a resolution. If I didn't go to all this effort and just let the chips fall where they may, the therapist terminates therapy after the 4-5 session window because they are just plain out of ideas.

So its not a power thing when i say control, its more of like what i described above. Its like me realising that therapy will end soon so I better make use of this resource before it is gone. If i had money to go therapist shopping, i wouldnt bother with all of this stuff. But when you are on welfare you only have one place you can go to for free therapy and when its gone its gone. So its me just making sure i gave it a good crack before being terminated.

[Abby]

I absolutely understand this way of thinking. I have done similar things. I figure out something that is causing me problems and go into therapy the next session saying - "this is the issue, I want to change/get rid of this bit so that I can feel better, now what can you do to help me get there!" - and honestly being logical that makes sense to me. My therapist does not agree though. I think in some ways she may be right in that there is rarely a step by step 123 approach...otherwise wouldn't they have given it to us already?! But that does not stop my frustration at not being given the help I want in the way I want it!...Strangely enough though this denial from my therapist often leads to anger which leads to other emotions and things do move on. Irony anyone?!

So I absolutely get your way of thinking and kudos to you for being proactive! But is it possible by feeling you have to take control you are actually feeding your detached protector - doing exactly what she wants you to do? I mean she is probably on full alert if she feels the other person is powerless (I find that really scary) and about to be terminated. I would go in to therapy and 'take control' in a different way...by giving up the control and changing the pattern of what you normally do 5 sessions before the end. I'd go in there and get angry or upset or scared...or if that is impossible, simply not being directive....urg that sounds really unhelpful to you because you sound like me very logical and not interested in the airy-fairy nature of stuff....but might be worth a try?

I would be interested to know what happens - what you decide.

[KazzaX]

TY for your reply Abby! It is a great idea. Change how I take control and do it in a different way, true! I can't just not take control and just go with the flow - I have been taken on a ride by many-a-therapist by doing that - I lost thousands of dollars like that. But maybe there is another way. Hmmmmm. Must think on that one. Maybe there is something I haven't come up with yet that could do the trick!

At one point, I was pretty insistent on my T telling me how to stop wanting stuff I am NEVER going to get. I believed (and believe) I would be much happier if I just didn't want this stuff. My T babbled on about healthy needs and desires and blah, blah, blah. He would never really address the issue directly until I point blank said, Will you or will you not help me stop wanting X? And he said no, he would not help me with that because it was not what I really needed. NOT to want those things would be unhealthy. So maybe the response you're seeing is the therapist not cooperating because she doesn't believe that destroying the protector is what you need to do.

[KazzaX]

She said its true that we have to "replace it with the healthy adult mode" but when asked how to do this, she would not answer. I said "ok well lets start doing it right now" and she said "we have been doing it all along!". Wtf! haha
We haven't done anything really.. She verbally pokes me with a stick to get me angry each session and thats it. We haven't done anything except that and it has been about 7 months now. I am just wondering when the "therapy" bit will happen.

I know that 7 months isn't long but I have wasted YEARS on therapies where they just sit and have a chit chat for years on end, with no therepeutic value at all. I want to cut the crap and get down to THERAPY! I am ready and RARING to work... not chit chat. It's like we have talked causation to death, so now lets start with the HEALING! What do I have to do to get WELL ,starting from today? And if she isn't going to tell me, then I will find out one way or another (one reason I go on this board actually, lol).

[karebear1]

Could it be in the way you're approaching the subject?

Instead of saying ,"right. This is the issue - how do we destroy the detached protector mode?"

Maybe you could say, " Maybe the issue revolves around the detached protector mode. Would working on weakening or illiminating that be helpful at all?"

Asking a question rather than telling her what you think she is missing may be the way to avoid the anger reaction. Maybe she feels like you're insulting her intelligence or something. I don't know- just a suggetsion.

Detached Protector : cuts off needs and feelings; detaches emotionally from people and rejects their help; feels withdrawn, spacey, distracted, disconnected, depersonalized, empty or bored; pursues distracting, self-soothing, or self-stimulating activities in a compulsive way or to excess; may adopt a cynical, aloof or pessimistic stance to avoid investing in people or activities

First off this is not a sprint or race, its a journey. You didn't develop this overnight and it wont go away overnight. If your pattern involves "taking control" as you say and demanding an answer and this hasn't work before, why do you continue to attempt it? This is one maladaptive coping mode, I am sure there are more where that came from so why focus on this? The relationship is the key in therapy and by continuing to sabotage a chance for a relationship to develop, due to self imposed time constraints based on speed and or directness of treatment seems counterproductive. The definition of this coping mode and buying into it as a core issue, is a self fulfilling prophecy in how therapy is working for you. Throw that idea out the window, talk about HOW and WHY you developed this mode.... take all the time in the world, let the talk work, let the seeds be planted and the trust to build. T's aren't miracle workers but with their knowledge of the process and your willingness to be open and honest you will find a solution. My T compared the therapeutic relationship to people in karate who break through cinder blocks. Their forearms and hands are no stronger then yours or mine, through practice over time they have broke and cracked those bones and then allowed them to heal and there in lies their magic ability. Their bones become stronger after ever rupture and repair. Over time, in therapy, through the relationship we too will become stronger, through rupture and repair. One must be able to withstand the rupture and work through it with the Therapist in order to build a stronger relationship and shed the unwanted coping modes and replace them with new learned healthier ones. Even ideal chatter can lead to a huge break through, verbal brainstorming. If you know your pattern and you know it doesn't work....then try something else. I'd start with the opposite of this "cuts off needs and feelings; detaches emotionally from people and rejects their help;"

[KazzaX]

Originally Posted by karebear1

Could it be in the way you're approaching the subject?

Instead of saying ,"right. This is the issue - how do we destroy the detached protector mode?"

Maybe you could say, " Maybe the issue revolves around the detached protector mode. Would working on weakening or illiminating that be helpful at all?"

Asking a question rather than telling her what you think she is missing may be the way to avoid the anger reaction. Maybe she feels like you're insulting her intelligence or something. I don't know- just a suggetsion.

Yeah you could be right - maybe i am coming across in that way by the words that I use. I like the phrase you used there.. very neutral and doesn't sound demanding at all. I will try that next session. Thankyou!

[KazzaX]

Lolcabanna,

You cut right to the chase and don't mince words - I like it! You are definitely right though. I didn't realise "rejecting help" was a detached protector thing too but it makes sense. The karate simile is a good one.. I see what you mean.

The reason why I do this part of the pattern is so that I can make the most out of this resource before the 4-5 sessions are up and im terminated. In the past when I did not do this, I missed out on a lot of information and it was like throwing away a good resource. I get some extra info to work on in the time when I have no therapist anymore. Sort of like if you have a fridge full of food and it is being taken away in 4-5 days so at the last minute you grab some food so that you will not starve while you are waiting to find a new fridge. Get it while its there!

The question is, though, how much time should I allow myself to coast through with chit chat before drawing the line? A lot of therapists I have had before just make chit chat and next thing you know its been 3 years with no results and your bank account is empty and people are asking you "why didn't you find a new therapist 2 years ago? why are you still there?". I read a lot of guides that say if you have no results after 5 sessions then you should stop. I think 5 sessions is a bit premature... sounds a bit unrealistic to me. What is more realistic? I have no idea. What about 1 year?

[Abby]

I was just wondering if you had been to a therapy session since the other day and what you decided to do KazzaX.

I think how long you spend in therapy depends on what you are attending it for and how much you are getting out of it. I don't see my therapist as a resource of information, although I often wish she was able to provide me a simple answer and 'fix' it all!...so I wouldn't really view the last few sessions as a 'grab as many ideas as possible' type situation...

Personally I think it is unwise to try and destroy your detached protector. She is there for a reason and I think she won't give up her role until she feels more safe. Perhaps she needs to have her time? May be you need to talk to your therapist about her more rather than less? Just throwing out ideas....

Do you have a vunerable ( spelling?) child mode?

The goal or what the therapist strives for is to for you to reach that mode and this is where she can do her job. From what I understand she can´t do anything really when you are in detached mode= taking control and stuff.

Just from what I read and I have been in ST too. Never really totally understood it, but it sort of did work for me

ST ususally takes two years depending on the dx and stuff and has a really high succes rate. It´s a bit different from other therapies. Hang in there and let the T do her thing too.

[KazzaX]

Naw I haven't been to therapy yet because I usually go today (Friday) but she has training this week, so I go back next Friday.

Lonelybychoice yeah that is the main issue I am having in therapy. The healing doesn't even start to begin until she can access the vulnerable child mode and I cannot get there. Not sure if I even have one. And once we get there there is nothing she can really do that matters because all they are supposed to do is give me is empathy but I am not into that. I asked her if there is anything we could talk about instead of the empathy that is healing but she gave me some airyfairy answer that dodged the question. The dodging questions thing with her is really irritating me and I am considering getting rid of her and finding someone else.

Abby I think you are supposed to replace the detached protector with the healthy adult but you cannot develop a healthy adult until you get rid of the problems with the vulnerable child. We talk a lot about the detached protector mode because I am in it 24 hours a day and she doesn't see anything else hehe.. it is all very confusing and abstract!

I remember my T ( I have control issues too ) telling me when I asked her to exlain a schema" thats my job to focus on that not yours" Come to think of it I think she did me a favour of not letting me try to " run " the session and being detached when talking about the different modes instead of my issues. You know a little less theory and a little more feeling. Every therapist also in ST is different but it´s all about the relationship how you react to her and they way she handles that. It doesn´t only have to be touchy feeling emphasy. ( Does she know you well enough yet?) ...point is when my T said that I got in the angry child mode and have an authentic response. When she does something else I would go in the vunurable child mode. Talking about the theory in it selve does not do anything. It basically just avoiding stuff by interlectualizing. Maybe when transference become an issue it will work. It seems like it is early days. Hang in there and don´t give up just yet. Also ST therapit seems quite commited and won´t just terminate after four sessions. They have chosen this orientation for people with the exact issues you are decribing and mine wich were different but still quite treatment resistant.

Oh and I think we all have this vulnerable child mode. It´s in there somewhere...