[peaches100]

Have any of your t's told you that you are attracted to people who tend to victimize you? My t told me this last week. I sort of knew it already, but hearing her say it made me mad. For one thing, she is talking about those people in my life that i have loved the most and/or relationships that felt special to wounded child parts of me. Also, these relationships, though they may have had some unhealthy elements, were not all bad. My t said that she wasn't calling these people "perpetrators," but she still compared my relationship with them to my relationship with the man who SA me as a child. So what does that say?

I've thought about it alot, and i can see why she said that. Still, i think it was a very gutsy thing for her to say, knowing how i feel about these people. It's true that they did hurt me, and they do have conrolling tendencies, but i don't see them as having bad intent and i still believe they really love(d) me. They've treated me really good overall, despite the pain they've brought me too.

I was telling my t about this one older friend, how she really cared about me and we had alot of good times, but how she sometimes treated me a bit like a child. My t asked for an example, so i told her how she smacked my hand at a restaurant one time because i double dipped. Now, it only happened the one time. But my t said it was inappropriate and then said something like "You like people who make you feel safe and treat you like a child?" I dunno. It just makes me mad.

I'm not asking my t to have rose-colored glasses, and i want her to tell me the truth. But i don't like being told i have a victim mentality and am basically addicted to unhealthy people who are damaging. Two of these people i had problems with, and they are now inviting me back into their lives, and my t and my h don't want me to. My h even says, "If you take C. back, you may as well vomit and then eat it, because that's what you're doing." He claims that they never really loved me, that i just want to think so.

I feel bad because i don't have hardly anyone in my life who cares about and loves me, aside from my h and in-laws. I have no close friends. But these two people want to be my friend. I feel like i'm being cautioned to avoid them, when they seem to be the only ones who ever really cared about me very much. I'm invisible to most everybody else.

I think i'm just messed up.

Hello, peaches100. What if your therapist and husband are right?

[peaches100]

Byzantine,

Well, i guess that's what i'm wondering. . .if they are right about me and these relationships??

the thing i can't understand is. . .if it is true that they are not good for me, why do i want them in my life so much? why don't i see that they are harmful and/or not loving? if they do not really love me and were mostly only using me, why can't i see that?

[sittingatwatersedge]

Ohhh Peaches......

when I saw this thread & noticed who had initiated it, there was a bump as my radar turned itself on.

As I read, the beeping started getting louder, and when I came to this >> Two of these people i had problems with, and they are now inviting me back into their lives, and my t and my h don't want me to. My h even says...<< the alarm bells started ringing.

This isn't about your T's opinoion. Your T is trying to warn you. And the one other person on this earth who knows you as intimately as T, or right after her, thinks the same.

And... of the two people you referred to, if one of them is the same one you went through the wringer about within the last 12 months, I think you know the answer to this.
Please don't play with fire, my friend.

[jexa]

I agree with SAWE, peaches.. I don't want to make you upset, I know your heart is so big and you just want to forgive, forgive, forgive, and I know you are lonely and seeking friendship, but in the process you get so so hurt I don't think it's about you choosing a victim mentality, peaches - there's so much blame and negativity in that - "choosing victimhood" - ugh! But I do think that it's hard for you to look honestly at the faults in other people -- you care SO much -- and I think that ends up putting you in that victim role.

Like SAWE said, the two people who care about you the most are telling you this is a bad move. I would listen to them, and steer clear, and protect your sensitive heart.

[Rapunzel]

Children have to attach to their caregivers in order to survive, even if the caregivers are abusive. Victims of kidnapping and hostage-taking also develop some attachment to the people who hold them hostage and often defend the kidnappers. This is because their survival depended on those people, and that attachment helped them to survive. If you grew up with abusive people, you probably associated a lot of the dynamics of those relationships with being cared for. That is why survivors are often attracted to new people who treat them similarly.

Also, nobody is all bad or all good. In relationships with people who "are not good for you," not everything they do is harmful. You can ask yourself what you are getting out of those relationships, as well as how you might be getting hurt in those relationships. What is familiar might feel comfortable, and it might even feel very strange and hard to tolerate when someone treats you with genuine concern if it is different from what you are used to. What is familiar at least feels somewhat predictable and might give you some sense of control.

[Melbadaze]

I think we do what we do until we know better. Telling someone not to hang out with so and so may work for a few days but unless the internal chage has occured its pointless. I know through therapy and learning or at least beginning too learn what a healthy person looks like there are people I no longer "mix" with, I'm not rude to them but i
I am happy to keep it at a "hi glad your ok", its like going back to infant sch where the chairs look inviting until you go to sit down and realise how much you've grown and they haven't.

[Fuzzybear]

Thinking of you ....

(((((((((((( peaches100 ))))))))))

[jazzy123456]

You know, your not messed up...you are a normal human being who struggles with relationships...i actually think I own up to the fact that I have a victim mentality myself...My T's never told me but, I believe I do. its hard to think that way or hear that from anyone. I hope your situation works out soon and you can make those unhealthy relationships healthier.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by peaches100

she is talking about those people in my life that i have loved the most and/or relationships that felt special to wounded child parts of me.

It's true that they did hurt me, and they do have conrolling tendencies, but i don't see them as having bad intent and i still believe they really love(d) me. They've treated me really good overall, despite the pain they've brought me too.

i don't like being told i have a victim mentality and am basically addicted to unhealthy people who are damaging.

I feel bad because i don't have hardly anyone in my life who cares about and loves me, aside from my h and in-laws. I have no close friends. But these two people want to be my friend. I feel like i'm being cautioned to avoid them, when they seem to be the only ones who ever really cared about me very much. I'm invisible to most everybody else.

Peaches, I know from experience that before you have healed/while you are healing, healthy people can make you feel uncomfortable. Healthy people really look at you and if you don't feel too good about yourself or if you like to keep people at a distance, this is scary. I had to work on being comfortable being around healthy people. I would be around them, let all the uncomfortable feelings pop up and then work on these issues and then repeat until I worked it all out.

So if you are avoiding healthy people this does only leave unhealthy people out there to build relationships with because everyone has some drive to be with people. (The unhealthy people are more tolerable because when you have issues it is harder to really focus on others and this inability to focus on others is what makes it more comfortable to be around them - because they don't really focus on you.)

I'm sure that these people aren't purposely out to hurt you but they probably have their own issues which hook up with your issues and unresolved issues can cause hurt in relationships.

[sugahorse1]

I do this a lot, but it's because I have abandonment issues and always feel lonely. Which probably stems from low self-worth.
I cling onto every relationship I can form, as the most important thing in my life. Regardless of how healthy it is or not. I wear blinkers, and am not prepared to take advice from anyone. It's taken a huge fall and immense pain through the implosion of a VERY important relationship to me, to be able to step back and realise how unhealthy the relationship was to me. And I'd been warned from day one - I just didnt want to believe it.
As hard as it is, you need to trust those people that really care for you (Off-hand I'd say your T and H are good bets) and listen to their advice. When you are able to take a step back, you can open your eyes and realise how right they were.
It may be painful, but it's for the best in the long run - please look after yourself. xx

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

Ohhh Peaches......

when I saw this thread & noticed who had initiated it, there was a bump as my radar turned itself on.

As I read, the beeping started getting louder, and when I came to this >> Two of these people i had problems with, and they are now inviting me back into their lives, and my t and my h don't want me to. My h even says...<< the alarm bells started ringing.

This isn't about your T's opinoion. Your T is trying to warn you. And the one other person on this earth who knows you as intimately as T, or right after her, thinks the same.

And... of the two people you referred to, if one of them is the same one you went through the wringer about within the last 12 months, I think you know the answer to this.
Please don't play with fire, my friend.

Hi Sittingatwatersedge,

Thanks for being concerned about me. The fact that you told me your radar bumped on and your alarm bells rang made me think twice about what i'm wanting to do. And, yes, this is one of the two people i had problems with in the past, those former older women friends who treated me somewhat like a mother but then rejected me. I know i've grieved for literally "years" about the pain they caused me and the ending of the relationships with them. Because it has been nearly impossible for me to let them go emotionally, I guess i feel good because now they want me back in their life. Child parts are ready to just forget the pain and try again. But I'm listening to what my t and h are saying -- and you guys here at PC -- before i make any decision to start emailing this woman.

I think that, with therapy under my belt, the adult part of me is strong enough to make boundaries with her and probably enforce them. But child parts of me were devastated by her criticism and rejecting attitude when we finally hit a point where we disagreed on something. There's no proof that it wouldn't happen again at some point. It's that part of me that i worry about. What if we hit a snag again later and she got rejecting, and the relationship had to end again? Child parts of me would probably go through the same devastation and inability to let go all over again.

On the other hand, I've known her for 25 years and i really believe she loves me. When i ran into her after a long time of having no contact, she cried and told me how much she missed me. She has said I'm like a daughter to her. She has seen me through a lot of things over the years. We also share the same religious faith, so i've felt a bond from that. It's really, really hard to make the decision not to pursue the relationship again. Why does it have to be so hard?

Recently, i got in touch with another old friend -- not an older mother figure, but a peer, someone who's 3 years older than me. We used to be friends, but our relationship suffered a bit when i got depressed because she didn't understand why i wasn't wanting to socialize, and then she and her husband moved up to the mountains about 45 minutes away from where i live. We haven't kept in touch for several years, but i ran into her at a convention for our religion, and we exchanged numbers.

Two weeks ago, we did lunch, and it was nice. We made a comfortable transition back into conversation and it was like there hadn't been very much time since we'd been together. I've been thinking it would nice to be in touch with her again occasionally, and am pretty sure she'd be a safe friend for me. We have quite a bit in common, and i don't feel any of the "mother pull" with her because we're close to the same age. Still, being with her doesn't create the same hunger/draw/need in me that going back to my older women friends does. Those other relationships feel more important and necessary to me, almost like air. I don't understand why this is such a struggle for me to let them go.

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by jexa

I agree with SAWE, peaches.. I don't want to make you upset, I know your heart is so big and you just want to forgive, forgive, forgive, and I know you are lonely and seeking friendship, but in the process you get so so hurt I don't think it's about you choosing a victim mentality, peaches - there's so much blame and negativity in that - "choosing victimhood" - ugh! But I do think that it's hard for you to look honestly at the faults in other people -- you care SO much -- and I think that ends up putting you in that victim role.

Like SAWE said, the two people who care about you the most are telling you this is a bad move. I would listen to them, and steer clear, and protect your sensitive heart.

Hi Jexa,

I've never had anybody put it in words exactly the way you did. . .that it's hard for me to look honestly at the faults in other people. But maybe it's true. I was raised by a mom who was a super positive thinker to the point that she completely ignored/denied any problems that went on in the family. Even very bad problems. She would just act like she didn't know anything bad was happening. Maybe there is a part of me that fails to see bad behavior or can't label it as such?? So when things feel good again, it's very easy to pretend/forget that anything painful ever happened beforehand. I'm so ready to see the good, and really want to! Thank you for reminding me that i need to protect my heart.

[alcira]

This thread hits so close to home. I fully understand the pull towards these relationships despite the awareness that they will likely bring more pain. I also understand the struggle of wanting to get back into them and the knowing that you shouldn't. I am not sure there is really an easy way to stay out of them. The only way I have managed to do that is by reminding myself of all the past pain and keeping the fear of that pain alive but I don't think that is a healthy way to do that. I really feel for you at this moment. Stay strong!

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by peaches100

On the other hand, I've known her for 25 years and i really believe she loves me. When i ran into her after a long time of having no contact, she cried and told me how much she missed me. She has said I'm like a daughter to her. .

Funny, when I read this I found myself picturing my mother. Who used to throw her children out, like garbage, and then would permit them to come back in her own good time. After months or years (or even many years) of estrangement she would allow them back, she would hug them and cry, and say how much she had missed them; and she was perfectly sincere all the while (during the throwings out, and during the reconciliations); she really meant all of it. But it was just a matter of time till she repeated the cycle.

It was just a lethal relationship pattern on her end, and it became one on the children's receiving end. Peaches when it's your Mom, there's not darned much you can do to avoid it; but why go looking for it.

you also said this >> I don't understand why this is such a struggle for me to let them go.
I think you have said something SO telling here. Can you spend some time thinking about this? Because until you do understand, and until it is no longer a struggle to let them go, you are still running the risk of re-injury.

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

Children have to attach to their caregivers in order to survive, even if the caregivers are abusive. Victims of kidnapping and hostage-taking also develop some attachment to the people who hold them hostage and often defend the kidnappers. This is because their survival depended on those people, and that attachment helped them to survive. If you grew up with abusive people, you probably associated a lot of the dynamics of those relationships with being cared for. That is why survivors are often attracted to new people who treat them similarly.

Also, nobody is all bad or all good. In relationships with people who "are not good for you," not everything they do is harmful. You can ask yourself what you are getting out of those relationships, as well as how you might be getting hurt in those relationships. What is familiar might feel comfortable, and it might even feel very strange and hard to tolerate when someone treats you with genuine concern if it is different from what you are used to. What is familiar at least feels somewhat predictable and might give you some sense of control.

Hi Rupunzel,

You made alot of interesting points. What you said about hostages developing attachment for those who take them captive reminded me of Elizabeth Smart, who initially protected her captor by telling the police that she wasn't who she was.

I didn't grow up in an abusive household, but there was alot of yelling and criticizing. My dad ridiculed my feelings and pointed out my mistakes repeatedly. My mom didn't do anything to stick up for me or help i understand why. So I grew up assuming i was a bad child who was incompetent and did everything wrong. I've never felt capable of taking care of myself emotionally. Ever since my childhood, I've been looking for a friend who is strong and wise, who will accept my feelings, while also being protective of me. Instead, i get bound up with people who at first seem to accept me -- love me even -- but eventually end up trying to control my life and getting angry and critical when i don't go along with their advice. The thing is, though, that i look up to them and believe they know more than i do about myself and about life. And i want their approval very much. So i go along with it for a long time, feeling good about their caring and protectiveness, until one day when i realize that i feel like a captive and that they don't really love me for who i am.

I don't think these friends were or are all bad. But maybe there just weren't enough boundaries or something. They didn't know the difference between offering their opinion or advice, and trying to take over. And i was just so grateful for their help and advice that i didn't feel like i was being taken advantage of.

What really concerns me, though, is knowing that despite their controlling ways, i miss these friends and a part of me would gladly go back to allowing them to dictate too much of my life in order to feel safe and cared about again. That part of me feels very messed up and deeply rooted, and I'm afraid sometimes i won't be able to change that part of me.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by peaches100

Ever since my childhood, I've been looking for a friend
who is strong and wise,
who will accept my feelings,
while also being protective of me.

Instead, i get bound up with people who at first seem to accept me -- love me even --
but eventually end up trying to control my life and getting angry and critical when i don't go along with their advice.

The thing is, though, that i look up to them and believe they know more than i do about myself and about life.
And i want their approval very much.
So i go along with it for a long time,
feeling good about their caring and protectiveness,
until one day when i realize that i feel like a captive and that
they don't really love me for who i am.

This ^ is really important Peaches. The things that you are looking for in a friend - strong and wise and protective of you, are the flip side of controlling. If you want a friend to be protective of you where is the boundary? This is an invitation to be controlling. Adding that you want their approval seals the deal.

Originally Posted by peaches100

We have quite a bit in common, and i don't feel any of the "mother pull" with her because we're close to the same age.

Still, being with her doesn't create the same hunger/draw/need in me that going back to my older women friends does. Those other relationships feel more important and necessary to me, almost like air. I don't understand why this is such a struggle for me to let them go.

This sounds like it might be a healthy relationship...........

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by peaches100

Those other relationships feel more important and necessary to me, almost like air. I don't understand why this is such a struggle for me to let them go.

Because they are meeting childhood needs for you and this really isn't a role of a friendship, at least a healthy friendship. You can get these childhood needs met/healed by working in therapy, however.

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by Melbadaze

I think we do what we do until we know better. Telling someone not to hang out with so and so may work for a few days but unless the internal chage has occured its pointless. I know through therapy and learning or at least beginning too learn what a healthy person looks like there are people I no longer "mix" with, I'm not rude to them but i
I am happy to keep it at a "hi glad your ok", its like going back to infant sch where the chairs look inviting until you go to sit down and realise how much you've grown and they haven't.

Hi Melbadaze,

I am starting to learn what a healthy person is, and i definitely am looking for friends of that sort now. I'm taking it really slow and spending time to observe people and think about who might make a good friend for me.

What i see as my big problem now (and it has been a problem for me for "years," even in therapy), is in not being able to truly let go of these former friends in my heart. It must be true that as long as i'm feeling this intense draw/need to have them in my life, i really haven't done the "work" that i need to do in order to fill that huge empty hole that i feel inside from having having felt/not feeling loved by my parents and my attraction to people who violate my boundaries in exchange for what feels like love and security to me. What kills me, though, is that i have worked very hard in therapy. So i don't know why i can't get past this issue/problem?!

What makes it harder to let go is that they share my religious faith, and i run into them every 6 months or so at shared events we attend. For example, yesterday, our congregation met at a different time than usual. As i was entering the building, i ran into the second old friend, as her congregation was just leaving from their meeting. I came face to face with her. I think i handled it well. I said hello and inquired how she was, then gracefully made an exit. But as i was walking away, she mentioned again that we should get together one of these days. I smiled but didn't respond, and just continued walking away. But after seeing her, i found myself having a really hard time paying attention to the program. I felt thoroughly affected. I could feel that ache of loss all over again. It's so hard.

I feel like I'm doing the right thing by not getting involved with these two again. But a part of me really wishes the relationships could be restored and restructured, that the dynamics could be changed to allow us to relate more as adult to adult friends. With one friend in particular, we were normal friends for years without the unhealthy dynamics making things unbalanced. It was really when i sunk into my clinical depression that everything went haywire, in that I involved them in my issues and they over-reacted by trying to take over to solve them. Had i not gotten depressed and needing so much help, i think one of the friendships would have continued. The other would not have happened at all, as it started as a helping relationship.

But. . .hindsight.

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by Melbadaze

I think we do what we do until we know better. Telling someone not to hang out with so and so may work for a few days but unless the internal chage has occured its pointless. I know through therapy and learning or at least beginning too learn what a healthy person looks like there are people I no longer "mix" with, I'm not rude to them but i
I am happy to keep it at a "hi glad your ok", its like going back to infant sch where the chairs look inviting until you go to sit down and realise how much you've grown and they haven't.

Melbadaze,

Were any of the people you used to mix with good friends? Was it hard to turn them into general acquaintances? I'm just wondering if you struggled at all like i do with letting people go that you've once been close to. ??

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by Fuzzybear

Thinking of you ....

(((((((((((( peaches100 ))))))))))

Fuzzybear,

Thanks for the hug and warm thoughts. They helped!

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by jazzy123456

You know, your not messed up...you are a normal human being who struggles with relationships...i actually think I own up to the fact that I have a victim mentality myself...My T's never told me but, I believe I do. its hard to think that way or hear that from anyone. I hope your situation works out soon and you can make those unhealthy relationships healthier.

Hi Jazzy,

Yeah. . .what i really want is to keep the friendships and change the dynamics of them. But the people closest to me think that it would not work. . .either because they don't believe my old friends would be willing to change, or because they don't think i have the internal strength not to be pulled back into the unhealthy dynamic with them. I sway back and forth between agreeing that it wouldn't work, to thinking that i could make it work because i know how to set boundaries now and have better conflict resolution skills. Still. . .I've already promised my husband i would not contact one of the old friends. Contact with the other old friend is something i need to decide, but it's been discouraged by my t and my h. It would be so much easier to cut the ties if i didn't run into them periodically. But i can't change that.

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by jazzy123456

You know, your not messed up...you are a normal human being who struggles with relationships...i actually think I own up to the fact that I have a victim mentality myself...My T's never told me but, I believe I do. its hard to think that way or hear that from anyone. I hope your situation works out soon and you can make those unhealthy relationships healthier.

Jazzy,

About being a victim. . .I'm not entirely sure where this comes from. I didn't have the best upbringing, but it wasn't terrible. I had emotional neglect but no physical abuse or SA at home. And the SA that happened with my neighbor would probably be classified as minor. So i wonder sometimes why do i have such a self-destructive part of me that is so quick to take blame for things and be treated badly? It's as though a part of me wants to suffer. I don't quite get where i learned this.

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Peaches, I know from experience that before you have healed/while you are healing, healthy people can make you feel uncomfortable. Healthy people really look at you and if you don't feel too good about yourself or if you like to keep people at a distance, this is scary. I had to work on being comfortable being around healthy people. I would be around them, let all the uncomfortable feelings pop up and then work on these issues and then repeat until I worked it all out.

So if you are avoiding healthy people this does only leave unhealthy people out there to build relationships with because everyone has some drive to be with people. (The unhealthy people are more tolerable because when you have issues it is harder to really focus on others and this inability to focus on others is what makes it more comfortable to be around them - because they don't really focus on you.)

I'm sure that these people aren't purposely out to hurt you but they probably have their own issues which hook up with your issues and unresolved issues can cause hurt in relationships.

Hi Sannah,

You are exactly right that i seem to feel ill at ease with more healthy people and yet drawn to unhealthy ones. For instance, my t has always been so kind and accepting. Yet it has taken literally "years" for me to develop the trust and safety needed to do deep work!!!

Yet i'm drawn to those who don't treat me nearly as well, those i have to work hard to earn their love/care. People who seem superior to me. . .kind of like, "If i have to work hard to get their love, they must be worth fighting for." Or i get a few words of attention from somebody who has really hurt me badly in the past, and i'm ready to forgive and try again.

I know it's flawed thinking. . .i can see that with my logical mind. But my heart pulls me the other way.

I'm still thinking some more about what you said. . .

[jexa]

Originally Posted by peaches100

Jazzy,

About being a victim. . .I'm not entirely sure where this comes from. I didn't have the best upbringing, but it wasn't terrible. I had emotional neglect but no physical abuse or SA at home. And the SA that happened with my neighbor would probably be classified as minor. So i wonder sometimes why do i have such a self-destructive part of me that is so quick to take blame for things and be treated badly? It's as though a part of me wants to suffer. I don't quite get where i learned this.

(((((peaches)))))) I can relate. I can be very self-destructive at times.. I've learned to suppress this and not act on the urges, most of the time, but it is.. urgh.. difficult. And my parents are imperfect people with poor control of their emotions but they truly have good intentions.. I don't want to blame them for my problems nor do I think I should.

Sometimes I have tried SO HARD to figure out the WHY of my behavior that I miss the actual "why." Sometimes, figuring out what event in the past caused my current behavior is actually avoiding something. Or sometimes I will go over the past over and over and later I realize that I've been beating myself up with the past, not healing from it. In my opinion it's not always necessary to ferret out the event that caused me to behave in whatever way I behave. The past will come up naturally, I've found, if I try to move toward taking care of myself AND I stay mindful of what comes up for me in that process.

In DBT they teach you that you heal from emotions by acting opposite to your emotions when you realize that acting in accordance with your emotions is against your personal values. So, you heal from irrational guilt, by doing the thing that makes you feel guilty, over and over (instead of avoiding). You heal from irrational fear, by doing the thing that makes you feel fearful, over and over (instead of avoiding). You heal from RATIONAL guilt by making amends. You heal from RATIONAL fear by getting out of the situation.

If you act opposite to your emotions, things will come up from the past. Memories will come warning you -- NO, DON'T, STOP, THIS IS WHAT COULD HAPPEN. Watching those thoughts, emotions, and memories come and go -- feeling them fully in the moment -- seeing them for what they are (just thoughts, just memories, just emotions) -- and acting exactly how I want to act anyway, is the way that I have healed and will continue to.