Maternal touch redux

Something T and I have "dealt with" to some extent is my shame surrounding maternal touch and touch in general. We have established several things regarding this subject:

1. That my mother was not very affectionate with me at all.
2. That my mother had a strange reaction to my need for this affection when I was 10 years old.
3. That she is a person who does not like to be touched very much at all, for whatever reason.
4. That she had an odd fear that I would be sexually molested as a teenager.

There are things I still wonder about at times related to this:

1. Am I really bisexual or is the bisexuality an "adult" way of trying to get that need met?
2. Am I actually a lesbian because I enjoy sex with a woman more than with a man?
3. How do I get my touch needs met with most of the people I interact with are not demonstrative.

Today, I had a thought come out of the blue. I realize that I am more comfortable and accepting when a male touches me vs a female in most situations. I had a flash of a memory of being held by my dad. My dad and my grandfather were both demonstrative to me. One grandmother was demonstrative and the other was not. So all the men in my life wanted to be affectionate, but I only had one woman in my life that seemed to want to touch me.

Before our most recent rupture, I craved maternal touch from T. At this point post-rupture, I know I would still like it if I received this from her, although I don't crave it per se.

I asked T how to meet one's own touch needs. She told me that when she was upset, what she did most often was brush her hair over and over again. She then told me one thing she does when she is very upset is that she locks herself in her bedroom with her iPod and sings to the top of her lungs because music pervasively speaks to her (it does me as well). She also suggested a warm bath.

She asked me why my H didn't meet my needs. I plan to demonstrate Tuesday what it is like when he touches me (not sexually). He is quite non-demonstrative. If I grab his hand to hold, he keeps his hand slack. He is quite large and 8 inches taller than me. He also has short limbs; when he hugs me, it is like a t-rex (or think Barney ).

The other answer is that for the last 5 years, I have not been able to tolerate being in a physically intimate relationship. I am fortunate that H is able to tolerate this from me. It is an ultimate form of love and words fail me when I try to describe it. I trust him implicitly and without hesitation; however, I feel like the world's worst wife.

Any thoughts on the above? I know others struggle with the same shame from previous posts on the subject. Thank you.

Wow! There's a lot going on here, and it goes deep.

I'm not an expert on relationships. Some of my relationships work, and others don't work no matter how hard I try. I suppose that applies to everyone, but I'd like to know sooner which relationships to give up on!

But I digress. Sorry.

Could there be a part of that doesn't believe you are worthy of love?

PS:

If I read your history correctly, you have tried both passion and stability. You seem to have chosen stability. Your husband is a good man, but he doesn't sound very passionate. (Sorry if I'm out of line.) And I perceive your T the same way. Your boss seems to be another source of stability in your life.

Your job requires you to be stable, and I can see you struggling with that.

Chopin, as you know, we come from opposite ends of the spectrum. In the last few years, I have learned to handle hugs from female friends because one friend is very very huggy. I have actually learned to enjoy hugs from really close friends I trust. Otherwise, I have a certain amount of horror and revulsion around touch from women, and if pushed (which my sister does), I become frantic, fearful and angry and can actually become violent.

Although we're at opposite spectrum, I can tell you that I honestly think that whether you're a lesbian or bisexual or whatever, is something only you can determine, and I don't think anyone here can really help other than to support you as you try to figure it out for yourself. FWIW, I don't think your T can help you with this either, given her very conservative outlook.

Last, I have noticed with my friends and with my husband's divorce clients that it really appears that the longer you go without being physically intimate, the harder it becomes to be physically intimate. Sometimes the only answer seems to be just decide to do and do so. I have read that advice in some of the relationship articles I've looked at as well. Just something to consider and not telling you what to do.

Good luck with this.

Hi Chopin,
I'm sorry you're going through this. I agree with MKAC, that your sexual identity is yours to decide.
All I can really say is I know what it's like to need physical touch and not get it from your mother. I didn't realize how much I needed until I started working with a t that used physical contact, with my permission of course, especially when I was upset. This helped my healing a lot.
I also know it's hard when you don't have a lot of people in your life who touch you. I only have one male friend, like a father figure, who touches me in a friendly supportive way but not when I'm upset, as strong emotions unsettle him. I'm also in the process of looking for a new t and don't know if touch will be part of our work in therapy. I'm leaning towards thinking that perhaps the work with my previous t got me to the point where I don't need it in therapy anymore, but I'm trying not to box myself into that choice until I actually talk things over with the t.
Anyway, just wanted to say I support you.

Hey choppin, good to hear from you again. Missed reading your thoughts.

I have the similar touch issues to yours. My H is a very patient man. We have been married 18 years. I do not like touch from him sexual or non sexual. I do not like touch from others male of female. But in working w/ children, I see in myself a stage of innocence which children posses. I do not see children as a threat. I can hold a small child and feel no uncomfortable feelings. As child nears the age of 8 or 9 I become uncomfortable w/ them. I do not like working w/ afterschool age children at all. By the time they are in there early teen years they are a definite threat. I have 3 kids my slef. The 15 yr old, I already see as a threat. His feeling scare me. Feelings of anger, hurt, disappointment. I am unclear of why there is that change in me simply due to there age.

My mother only hugged me on Christmas and very few other occasions. I don't remember my dad ever hugging me until I was 16. He was trying to help me and I hated it. I think the time frame had passed for that to be a learned trait, to be accepting of touch.

I was also ignored a a baby. I was a play pen baby. W/ a rigid schedule. Toss the baby a bottle every 4 hours. Change it every 2 hours. If it cry's ignore it, it won't cry so much in the future. Well that was completely the case. I'm so distant and unwanting and unaccepting of touch it is scary.

My H is angered and confused by this. I do feel like a bad wife. I know I should be more accepting of his touch even when non sexual. Between my upbringing and the issues that I have faced durring my teenage years I don't know that it is something that will be easily overcome. I am working w/ a T who specializes in trauma and I hope to get this ironed out one day.

In you personal opinion, is touch something that one can be thought to accept? I know you have some back ground in psy, correct? I know that I most likely didn't answer any of your Q's or help much but you did make me think. I guess I am responding to that. Thanks for making me think. (I think )

I am going to wait to take feedback in before I respond. That's only fair, so that I can mull and ponder over the viewpoints of others that I might dismiss out of hand. I do appreciate any and all feedback.

That being said, I do know that I and only I am the one who can decide about my sexuality. I may not even bring it up with T. I don't expect anyone here to answer it also. My post is mulling my new realization with the old info while taking in the different points of view.

I will say for info purposes that H and I are the absolute best of friends despite it all. Our marriage is not in danger.

I've got no answers for you, Chopin. Just wanted to let you know I relate. I've been wrangling with some of these same questions and issues myself. I could tell you how I think things fit for me, but I don't think it would help.. we are all different, and I think these are the types of things we can only figure out by looking within.

I am definitely lesbian, but sleeping with men was not a big deal one way or the other. I have friends who are men, but the emotional, lust, connection, etc thing only happens with other women for me. I am not especially keen on being just randomly touched by anyone, male or female. In some ways, casual touch from men is easier because it is not as potentially charged. My mother was not unaffectionate with my brother and by the time I remember, I was just not a cuddly child except with my grandmother. So I guess I might could have had mother physical cuddling, but I did not like it. My dad was not a super touchy guy, but he hugged us and carried us and wrestled around on the floor with us. I really think it was just me and not my family on the touch hug thing not being my big cup of tea.
I do think enjoying sex with women more than with men is one of the signs of being a lesbian.
Good luck with it Chopin -I am sorry it is such an area of struggle for you.

The only touch I received as a child was physical abuse by my mother, and sexual abuse by an aunt and uncle who were our "guardians" while my mother didn't want us around. My father was mostly emotionally and physically absent, though he lived in our home. He never once touched me and barely acknowledged my existence. So I struggle a lot with shame regarding my needs for touch. What I'm trying to accept is that I do need touch, there's nothing wrong with that, and it's okay for me to get those needs met. I wish I had the answer of how to meet those needs myself, but I know that for me I can't. I can do things that help, like wrapping myself up in a blanket, but that only works for a little while. When I need a hug, I have to find a safe place to get a hug. For someone who is generally terrified and untrusting of people, that is no easy task. But it does have to be a balance...I have to have ways to self-soothe, and I also have to reach out to others, because what I really need is connection.

I started to write a post but it got lost... I am heading off to bed but wanted to respond to your great post so I will come back tomorrow.

I think there is still a part of me that feels inherently unworthy. I like to think that it is a past version, but it's still there.

I chose stability because I am unstable by nature. As a rule, my H is not a passionate man. You are not out of line to say so. However, his passion could be in the way he is devoted to me. When I fell apart last weekend, he tried to help me in any way he could. He does need help and asks, "What do you need me to do?" If my answer was to jump into the river from the drawbridge, he would probably do it.

Maybe this is passion (or crazy, I'm not sure). I have told him repeatedly he needs to lose weight. He finally told me one evening that he hasn't lost the weight because he knew he was enough of an arrogant @$$hole now (he's not to me or our friends, but he couldn't care less about the general public), and if he became trim, he might become even more arrogant and possibly he would start making my life hell. He said he would rather give me 10 good years and have a heart attack than 25 s**tty ones. He was in tears at this point. Once the enormity of that message hit home, I cried and cried, then went into a daze which lasted a couple of days. I mean, what did I do to deserve this love? When I relayed this story to T, she started crying a little.

T is rather passionate when she chooses to be, much more demonstrably so than H can, but she is not a stable presence. I saw her passion most when she tried to help keep me from breaking down while her life was falling apart due to cancer. I broke down anyway, but she tried. She has shown me how much she loves me in fits and spurts. I'm learning that when she is tough on me, it is actually out of love also.

My boss is also a stable presence in my life. My job does require me to be stable and some days, that is very hard for me. If I freak, my clients freak, my employees freak, and my coworkers freak. I have to stay reliable in the way of a "mother hen". I have it in me most days and I know the days I don't, I leave.

Thanks, CE, you helped me work some things out!

Last, I have noticed with my friends and with my husband's divorce clients that it really appears that the longer you go without being physically intimate, the harder it becomes to be physically intimate. Sometimes the only answer seems to be just decide to do and do so.

I think this is true. I don't think of touch as particularly maternal, perhaps because I have more resistance to it. So it may be more related to sexual orientation than I first thought. I do feel touch deprived, independent of sexual feeling.

I decided not too long ago to explore some avenues of touch through massage. I'm an ex-pat in a country that places much more emphasis on health through physical touch than the US. I found a husband and wife team through a friend. He does more chiropractic/sports work and various types of massage; she specializes in Reiki. They're both seniors and look 20 years younger than they are!

I've worked with both of them, and despite the language barriers, communication hasn't been a great problem. I think if I could communicate better with her during Reiki sessions, I could process it better, as at times, it's been quite powerful. But she seems adept, and has figured out how to modulate what she does based upon my reactions.

But overall, it's been good for me. Not totally comfortable, but good in the sense of getting more comfortable in my body and feeling an emotional release.

I tried massage and found it disappointing. But then I get enough touch at home.

Hi there

Your post caught my eye as I also have a lot of shame around maternal touch due to inappropriateness with my mother until late childhood. Strangely though I really crave it - but am also far more comfortable with touch from a man, particularly from sex, than hugs or affection with a female. I hadn't made that distinction before.

I do crave touch from t although currently she is not giving it because I'm very triggered by the past and she feels it won't be helpful. One way I'm trying to meet my touch needs is by wrapping myself in a warm fleece blanket. Problem I hadn't anticipated is that my little boy has also taken a liking to the blanket lol, but I don't really mind.

I can't say it has affected my sexuality apart from that I used to develop crushes on female teachers in the past. This was far more emotional and symbolic of my need for a mother rather than any indication of my sexuality though.

I do understand the shame this causes and it's good you and t are working through it. Your sexuality is your choice whatever it is and I'm sure there are many reasons, not just one, why people are attracted to a particular sex.

Hey Chopin,

I don't have any good answers to your questions, but they are among the most interesting to ponder. I do not relate to the desire for maternal touch, but I know that I do feel cut off from myself when my sexuality is disconnected from me. This isn't necessarily about having sex with a partner, but more that part of me is my pure and unbridled lust, and I don't know who I really am when my lust gets lost. For me, I have to feel connected to my lust to feel whole and complete.

Now, I don't think that enjoying sex with women more than men means you are a lesbian. I mean, it might, but not necessarily. I like having sex with my H more than my previous female partners, but that sure as all get up doesn't make me heterosexual. If something happened with my marriage, I don't know if I would want another partner at all, but I'm inclined to think I would be more likely to look for a woman rather than a man. But I think for me, my romantic interests have always been in the person rather than the gender per se. I'm not sure that who you want to have sex with means something particular about your overall sexuality or who you are. Maybe it just means you dig that person. Or you don't dig that person.

I do wonder, though, if some of the key is in who you don't want to grind it up with-- your H. Five years is a really long time and I understand that he's a really great and supportive guy and he's okay with the state of things, but are you? Rhetorical question, of course. There's nothing wrong with an absence of sexuality in a marriage if that works for both partners, and I suspect that this happens in more marriages than we know (my FIL had one of these, before he divorced his 3rd wife). But I am wondering if this is the only way you can be married to this man is to avoid your lust, and if that is something that you really want to be in for a long haul. But if it's a way of coping with being with someone who you don't really dig, then maybe it's time to consider your options. You can rediscover your lust with your H, or rediscover your lust by yourself and let it lead you in another direction. But maybe issues surfacing around touch and sexuality are really more about you and the kind of life/partnership/marriage that you want for yourself, and maybe it's not what you currently have.

I am a firm believer that orientation is as controllable as gender, or race. I don't think upbringing or choice have anything to do with it at all. I know that many women (and men) struggle to make excuses, because society still considers "straight" to be the acceptable way. It's easy for me to accept my sexuality because it's the norm. My heart goes out to people who struggle with it. I hate almost every part of myself, if I had to struggle with orientation too I'd me in deep shite.

My mother was not affectionate. My father's affection was painful to say the least. I am a cuddler with my family. H. My son (to a limit). My daughters. My grands. I can hug female friends, but not lengthy hugs. I can hug male friends a bit easier, probably since I've had such an affectionate H for so many years. I do not crave attention from either, since I have all the attention I need. I freak when my mother reaches out or touches me though...it feels like a take over, like an invasion, like she's trying to steal a piece of me.

I worry for your H. It is a lot to ask a person to go without intimacy in a relationship. Every creature needs intimacy deep down. I don't care how much your H has shelled himself off from the world with his weight, he still deserves intimacy and sex. Sorry, but I don't buy into the "I'm being obese for you" deal. To ruin your health and deteriorate your life for another person is a messed up thing, not a romantic thing. I don't think you can say your marriage isn't in trouble, because it's not really a marriage but a friendship. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but the current situation isn't fair to either of you.

I hope that you work thru this quickly, I want you to live life to the fullest. You deserve to be happy.

****TRIGGER WARNING FOR SEMI-GRAPHIC SEXUAL TALK****

If anyone touches me that I do not know well, I tend to recoil, but I recoil more with women than with men.

I know; and I don't want T to help me with it. I want her to listen without judgment when I talk about it. Only I can determine my sexuality.

Physical intimacy is also a practical issue for us. It is difficult for my H also. He is very heavy. He cannot be on top and I have to spread my legs open very wide when I'm on top, which becomes tiring quickly. I know there are other things we can do. Right now, I desire no one. H seems too tired to be interested. Hopefully, it's something we can manage to work through.

Thanks, I appreciate your point of view.

My questions about sexuality come up with the maternal touch. I know I am on the spectrum of bisexual and I lean more towards females. I have been in love with both. It is fluid.

If you read my answer to MKAC, you'll see it is not only emotionally difficult, but physically difficult for H and I to have traditional sex. I have never been an extremely lustful person. Once a week or every other week is fine with me. I just feel like I screwed up (no pun intended) my marriage from the get-go. I wonder how much of this is guilt over my affair.

On the other hand, I know my ex has problems only being with her H. She said she enjoys sex with him, but the desire for a woman is so freaking strong that it takes all of her willpower not to just go out and cheat on her H.

Sexuality is fluid. Period. We still live in a backward society and I live on one end of the Bible belt. Fun times.

Makes perfect sense regarding your mom. I'm glad your H is affectionate and has helped you with touch from males.

I never said H wasn't messed up. If I had to "diagnose" him, it would be with Narcissistic PD. He grew up in a much more abusive, neglectful relationship than I ever experienced (i.e. his mom tried to shoot and kill him and his sister). He now has no contact with his mom and it is fine by me. He will not go to therapy for his own trauma. He says he's "over it".

I stick by "he loves me that much". Is it fair? No, but it is his decision. I did not ask him to wait for me while on my journey to mental health. I am starting to think that a round of MC might be a really good idea.

We are intimate in that we share everything with each other. We know each other so well, we unconsciously imitate each other or say the exact same thing in unison. In many ways, we are connected at the hip. In other ways, we are not.

I appreciate your opinion and have given it hours of consideration while I worked today.

My wife says: If he thinks you aren't interested, he will save both your feelings by not pressing you.

She has a point. Initiating sex means taking an emotional risk if the answer might be no.

W and I have regular playtimes so we are both ready and neither will feel rejected.

We don't have "traditional sex", but we both get intimacy and orgasms, and that's the main thing.

But you don't feel that way?

No, not at all. I don't want to be with anyone right now, male or female. That's why I said in my OP that I just can't tolerate being in a physical relationship at all right now.

I know now that the reasons are deep-seeded. We're probably going back to my extreme Puritanical upbringing. Much sarcasm to follow here (think of a fire and brimstone southern preacher).

Sex is bad. The most per-verse sins are sex-yew-al in nature and you better not be one of those ho-mo-sex-yew-als. That's the worst kind of person. You better not be a f*g-ut or a queer because yew are an abomination unto God and yew are going straight to hell. Ho-mo-sex-yew-als have signed their own ticket, they're gonna be on the hi-way to hell! And yew girls, yew better dress modestly because when yew dress and show off certain body parts, us men just can't help ourselves. It's not OUR fault; God made men this way. It's up to yew girls to keep us from getting out of line.

He may just as well have said, "If a man rapes a woman, it's totally her fault. I had to sit in chapel and listen to this BS for 13 years. Then I was dumb enough to attend the same kind of church for 3 more years.

Okay...I'm sorry for the rant. My upbringing just screwed me up. Dammit.

No need to be sorry for the rant. I'm just sorry that you had to grow up like this. Of course it would have screwed you up, and getting that kind of insidious hatred out of your head is not easy. Many people don't even have the strength to try.

Wishing you comfort and peace.