[rainbow8]

I'm posting this, knowing that after tonight I'm not going to read it until Tuesday. I like to "think" on here, and get stuff out of my head. I emailed T about my parts, that I want them to go away, and I hate them! I'm supposed to be compassionate and accept them, but right now I just want to kill them!

Of course I'm talking about the child and teenager "parts" who have those strong feelings for my T. I keep trying to "figure it out" but I don't think that will help. Some is transference; some is real. The point is that I wrote her, and she already knows it, that the parts react to the way T looks. In the session, she asked me something about when did my feelings get stirred up again--was it about her divorce? I never answered her but in the email I said it was when she got her contact lenses!

I'm so pathetic! I am attracted to my T, and it makes me so ashamed. It's not even about sex, though in a way it could be. I really hate that part who feels that way about her, and I want to get rid of her.

I want to ask T to do IFS with me again, with those parts. I wish I could just tell her straight out that the part loves her, but thinks that's not allowed. Or, maybe it's allowed for the child part, who is maybe 5 or 6, to love her. I'm just ashamed of all of these feelings, and knowing that T knows about them.

I don't have DID; there are people reading who probably don't understand IFS and the parts I talk about. They seem like separate parts, and we all have parts of our personality that are different. Not all of me thinks about T like a 12 year old with a crush on her. My adult parts relate to her normally, adult to adult, like when we talk about art or my daily life.

Even though I'm doing so many things in my life, these parts are still there. When I quit therapy, they will be there unless I come to terms with the way I feel and they feel. I know T won't want to get rid of them. She will tell me to accept them.

I just had to write this jibberish/garbage out again. It's repetitive and redundant and ridiculous! I'm even getting tired of reading my threads about T. :rolleyes

[growlycat]

Has T been able to help you integrate parts before your therapy comes to an end? I don't know anything about ifs, but it seems like you could be left feeling "in pieces" if she doesn't help prepare you?

Congrats on trying to hold out on checking too often on pc--I may need to try it too!

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by growlycat

Has T been able to help you integrate parts before your therapy comes to an end? I don't know anything about ifs, but it seems like you could be left feeling "in pieces" if she doesn't help prepare you?

Congrats on trying to hold out on checking too often on pc--I may need to try it too!

We've never talked about "integrating my parts". I'm supposed to accept and have compassion for them, and then my Self is supposed to be able to take of them. I don't know why that hasn't worked. It could be because every time I see T, I never know if I will be triggered just by the way she looks. Last session when I talked about idolizing her, she said "I'm just a regular person." I keep thinking about that statement. I know it's true, but those parts don't! Maybe it's "just" transference, and I haven't worked it through completely.

It bothers me to be focused on her looks, and be attracted to her. She told me in the past that it's okay, even if she's a woman, but I still don't think it's okay. The whole situation upsets me, and I do need to get it talked out more before I terminate my therapy.

[feralkittymom]

I'll say right upfront that I'm not a fan of IFS in general. While I think it's an interesting and valid concept in theory, I don't think it's always helpful applied to all clients. The problem that IFS creates, in a way, is this very sense of separate parts that are independent of each other. Nominally, they're all parts of the adult self, but in application, the effect is to separate them, including accepting them as separate.

Because their feelings are strong and seem to touch some unmet needs your adult self has, they persist. I'm not sure "accepting" them as is leads to their lessening. I suspect their needs need to be accepted and assigned their appropriate role by the adult self for the system to be functional.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

I'll say right upfront that I'm not a fan of IFS in general. While I think it's an interesting and valid concept in theory, I don't think it's always helpful applied to all clients. The problem that IFS creates, in a way, is this very sense of separate parts that are independent of each other. Nominally, they're all parts of the adult self, but in application, the effect is to separate them, including accepting them as separate.

Because their feelings are strong and seem to touch some unmet needs your adult self has, they persist. I'm not sure "accepting" them as is leads to their lessening. I suspect their needs need to be accepted and assigned their appropriate role by the adult self for the system to be functional.

Thanks for your viewpoint, fkm. The idea, in IFS, IS to separate the parts and not have them blended, so we can talk about what the specific part needs and wants from the Self (or from anyone else). You're right! Then, the Self needs to put them in their appropriate roles so the whole system works. In any case, I need to discuss this more with my T so these parts stop "taking over the show", as my T used to say.

I've got to go to sleep, then no PC until Tuesday. I don't want you to think I'm not responding if you post again.

[ultramar]

My personal opinion is that how she looks does not trigger you because it suggests some sort of attraction, but because you lack a strong sense of self (a self apart from others) when it comes to people you are very close too (especially T's); you have a hard time separating out where the loved one stops and where you begin.

In this context I think you see her appearance as reflecting on you somehow; you really seem to take her appearance (and changes in it) as a personal affront. Like how some parents will want their children to look a certain way because their appearance reflects on them. I think her thinness (which you think is too much/unattractive) and other things reflect on you personally, whether positively or negatively.

I think if you really experienced her as an entirely separate person, her appearance would not affect you so much. I have never gotten the sense that you are attracted, in an erotic way, to her; of course you may have these feelings sometimes, they're very common in therapy, but somehow I don't see your concerns about her appearance having anything to do with this.

And I think all of this is about adult Rainbow. The expectations for children and teenagers are very different (and lower) than those for adults. I understand 'parts' (sort of) in some cases, but here it just sounds like you're deflecting feelings you do not like/are ashamed of onto 'other' parts, because they are difficult to own and accept.

I could be wrong about all of this; it's what I've noticed from my point of view.

[feralkittymom]

Ultramar, what you've said is part of what I don't like about IFS. I think "parts" are always reflections of the adult self, positive and negative, and giving them separate status maybe makes it easier to conceptualize them, but can also lead to their fragmentation in application and to become a defense. Perhaps it works well for clients with firm self boundaries--maybe even too firm--but if there is any ambivalence about the adult self, I think you could very well be right that such an approach just muddies the waters.

[ultramar]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

Ultramar, what you've said is part of what I don't like about IFS. I think "parts" are always reflections of the adult self, positive and negative, and giving them separate status maybe makes it easier to conceptualize them, but can also lead to their fragmentation in application and to become a defense. Perhaps it works well for clients with firm self boundaries--maybe even too firm--but if there is any ambivalence about the adult self, I think you could very well be right that such an approach just muddies the waters.

I agree about the fragmentation issue. What concerns me too is that I have noticed people, at times, attributing aspects of themselves they do not like/are ashamed of to other/younger parts. So 'she' (i.e. the toddler) is needy (not 'me'), she (the teenager) is full of rage (not 'me'). I know this isn't always the case, though.

I think if someone does not have a strong ego, a strong sense of self and/or has a tendency to not own feelings/behaviors, it's likely to be counterproductive.

Rainbow, my feeling is that you need to find you and be you -and not through others, not through T's (though this can be accomplished, in theory, *in* therapy); I think this is in part what Winnicott was referring to with the 'false self' and I think this is why your pattern persists. I don't know what modality would help with this; but I think when you can be both whole and separate at the same time, it will be a big victory. But if you don't get there, that's okay too. You seem to have a full life, you're emotionally stable, you have family, friends, support. At the end of the day, it's a matter of what you want beyond this, if anything. And if T (or T's in general) make you happy, then no harm in that.

[Lamplighter]

Just wanted to post quickly to Rain as you said you wouldn't be back here until Tuesday, maybe you'll see this before then maybe not.

I have a problem with your T and IFS - she started out doing IFS with you and it seemed to be working, then she discovered a new therapy modality that she switched to and suddenly you're not doing IFS anymore. Which would be fine if that was helping you, but I get the strong impression that you're kind of stuck way back in your therapy when T withdrew the handholding and stopped working with the very parts she'd brought into your awareness.

I wonder if you asked her would she be willing to finish off your therapy by going back to using the IFS model? It so obviously fits what you need. And it's heartbreaking to read about how hard you're working to meet T's suggestions (such as keeping off here and staying away from facebook). Again I get the impression that you're doing it for her, rather than because it's what you yourself want or feel to be in your best interests. (Besides, I like reading your posts, selfishly I'd like to see more of you on here, not less .)

Don't mean to be critical about anything here, just wanting to let you know I'm still following your therapy journey, and sending you lots of support and hugs (((((((( Rain ))))))))))

[MoxieDoxie]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

We've never talked about "integrating my parts". I'm supposed to accept and have compassion for them, and then my Self is supposed to be able to take of them. I don't know why that hasn't worked. It could be because every time I see T, I never know if I will be triggered just by the way she looks. Last session when I talked about idolizing her, she said "I'm just a regular person." I keep thinking about that statement. I know it's true, but those parts don't! Maybe it's "just" transference, and I haven't worked it through completely.

It bothers me to be focused on her looks, and be attracted to her. She told me in the past that it's okay, even if she's a woman, but I still don't think it's okay. The whole situation upsets me, and I do need to get it talked out more before I terminate my therapy.

You are supposed to unburden the parts from what ever trauma, emotion or need they are holding on to and once they are unburdened they will find a more constructive job within the system. Yeah right! My T is an IFS therapist and I honestly think he either afraid of me or just sucks at it. I laugh every time he asks if it is ok to speak to a part.

[HealingTimes]

If you are having a hard time with your Ts appearance, could it be that it has less to do with attraction and transference, and MORE to do with consistency?
You are used to seeing your T the same (apart from how they dress) every week. In your case, that includes the fact that she wears glasses.
Then, you turn up to a session and she now has contacts.
That would bother me, i hate change and need consistency. I never had consistency in my life before, so it's very important to me now.

[SkinnySoul]

I think you focus too much on your T.

Maybe you should think about who the original recipient of those feelings is. Who is it that your 5-year-old self really loves? It's not T, it's someone from your life back then. Is this person alive? Can you fix your relationship with them? What did they do to you that led you to believe love is unacceptable and brings shame?
(I'm not expecting an answer btw, just a few ideas to discuss with your T. )

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by ultramar

My personal opinion is that how she looks does not trigger you because it suggests some sort of attraction, but because you lack a strong sense of self (a self apart from others) when it comes to people you are very close too (especially T's); you have a hard time separating out where the loved one stops and where you begin.

I agree with Ultramar that part of what is going on is that you lack a strong sense of self and that you are enmeshed with your T. However, from what you've written over the years, it seems that you also do feel an attraction to your T. This feeling has persisted for you for quite some time, and you have reported having those "too good" feelings when you are around her and she looks attractive that day. It seems that when clients feel attracted to a same-sex T, people often chalk it up to transference ONLY and deny any possibility that there is also a same-sex attraction present. Of course, it's partly transference. And not every client who feels an attraction to a same-sex T is curious/bi/gay/lesbian. However, sexuality is fluid for many people, if not most people. Many people have felt some attraction to certain people of both sexes at some point in their lives. That's fairly common. Having those feelings doesn't have to be threatening and doesn't have to be explained away. It's a part of the spectrum of human sexuality. From the history you've described over the years Rainbow, it seems as though you have felt a similar type of infatuation for many men (and a few women) in the past. For instance, you've described feeling something similar for actresses and teachers, before you began having these feelings for your T. I also remember you saying once that you think it is okay for others to be bi or lesbian, but NOT for you. Of course, if you think it's not okay for you, that means you don't really think it's okay in general. It's like those parents who say "I'm fine with other people being gay, but not my child." That simply doesn't make logical sense. It's a homophobic line. So, to me, when you said it's not okay for you, that suggests that you have an internalized sense of biphobia. You recognize that it's possible that, in addition to being attracted to men, you may have some attraction to certain women- but you don't accept that part of yourself. One defense mechanism against those kinds of feelings is to say that you just want to "be like" those women; you want to imitate them. If you see them as representing qualities that you want to have, then it takes away the threat that you may actually want to be with them in a romantic way. Of course, both feelings can be present at the same time. One part of you might admire T, and another part of you might desire T. I think if you worked through your feelings- the feelings that think it would not be okay to be bi curious/ bisexual/ sexually fluid- then maybe some of the intensity around your attachment to your T would decrease. I don't know for sure, but I think that's a possibility. I think that may be going on, hand in hand, with your lack of a sense of Self. If you are denying or suppressing one part of yourself (even a small one), then how can your Self be complete?

[blur]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Thanks for your viewpoint, fkm. The idea, in IFS, IS to separate the parts and not have them blended, so we can talk about what the specific part needs and wants from the Self (or from anyone else). You're right! Then, the Self needs to put them in their appropriate roles so the whole system works. In any case, I need to discuss this more with my T so these parts stop "taking over the show", as my T used to say.

I've got to go to sleep, then no PC until Tuesday. I don't want you to think I'm not responding if you post again.

Rain, have you ever asked your T about integration of your child and teen parts with your Self? Maybe that approach would be more helpful than just accepting them. When I did inner healing I had a bunch of parts, carrying fragments of feelings I believe, integrated and it seemed like a good thing. I'm not sure why the trend is to accept the parts rather than integrate them as it used to be. Do you know why that approach is use now?

Eta: I'm not understanding the mention of child parts being reassigned appropriate role? I thought that was reserved for the protector parts only. As I understand it the child parts need to be rescued and they then grow up and are integrated into the Self. Is giving child parts appropriate roles also part of the shift in how IFS is done now?

[blur]

Originally Posted by ultramar

I agree about the fragmentation issue. What concerns me too is that I have noticed people, at times, attributing aspects of themselves they do not like/are ashamed of to other/younger parts. So 'she' (i.e. the toddler) is needy (not 'me'), she (the teenager) is full of rage (not 'me'). I know this isn't always the case, though.

I think if someone does not have a strong ego, a strong sense of self and/or has a tendency to not own feelings/behaviors, it's likely to be counterproductive.

Ultramar, I don't think you are quite understanding IFS et al. These sorts of therapies are used frequently with people who have DID so obviously they don't have a strong Self to start with. That is the goal though. Check out this brief explanation of working with inner children/parts: Inner Child Healing & Integration | Healing Palette

[feralkittymom]

Originally Posted by blur

Ultramar, I don't think you are quite understanding IFS et al. These sorts of therapies are used frequently with people who have DID so obviously they don't have a strong Self to start with. That is the goal though. Check out this brief explanation of working with inner children/parts: Inner Child Healing & Integration | Healing Palette

But in this case, DID isn't applicable. And often, in DID, the parts individually are quite strong and in competition. I think integration takes on a different meaning in those cases.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I'm so pathetic! I am attracted to my T, and it makes me so ashamed. It's not even about sex, though in a way it could be. I really hate that part who feels that way about her, and I want to get rid of her.

Hi Rainbow,

These are some really strong feelings.
Do you know what it is about the attraction that makes you uncomfortable?

[rainbow8]

Thanks for the responses. I think it's better that I respond in detail AFTER my session today, not before. They're kind of triggering right now, and I've got a lot to do before my session today. You guys all mean well, but you're not my T. I don't mean the responses aren't helpful--rereading a bit. Some of you know me better than I know myself! I still get defensive about my T and IFS, though. I AM busy this morning. I didn't make that up!

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by blur

Rain, have you ever asked your T about integration of your child and teen parts with your Self? Maybe that approach would be more helpful than just accepting them. When I did inner healing I had a bunch of parts, carrying fragments of feelings I believe, integrated and it seemed like a good thing. I'm not sure why the trend is to accept the parts rather than integrate them as it used to be. Do you know why that approach is use now?

Eta: I'm not understanding the mention of child parts being reassigned appropriate role? I thought that was reserved for the protector parts only. As I understand it the child parts need to be rescued and they then grow up and are integrated into the Self. Is giving child parts appropriate roles also part of the shift in how IFS is done now?

I remember T telling me that the goal is not to have the child parts grow up. She said it is for them to "play and do what children like to do". I'll ask her again today, and see how she wants to deal with them. She has always told me to accept and have compassion for my parts. The goal is for the parts not to run the show. My
Self is supposed to do that. Is that integration? I'll ask her today. Thanks.

[HealingTimes]

I hope the session went well, R8

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by HealingTimes

I hope the session went well, R8

Thanks, HT. I haven't gone yet; it's in 3 hours but I have 2 classes first. Gotta run!

Rainbow

There are some very smart people on this site who have responded to your post with some good insight. I'm often impressed by the collective wisdom and caring here. I don’t know very much about parts work as I haven't done much of that work myself. I did resonate with some of the feelings you were talking about though and want to try to support you in that aspect.

What I hear in your post is that you are struggling against those feelings of attraction for your t, and those feelings bringing on shame. You just want it all to go away. It would be ok for those feelings if they came from a childlike place, but it is not ok for you as the adult. It sounds like a huge amount of energy is going into fighting those feelings.

Did I understand what you said right - that in IFS the concept is that maybe the part of you that feels attraction also needs compassion and acceptance too?

Maybe the core of the problem here is not the attraction, but the shame?

In my experience, which may not be the same as yours, I also felt a lot of shame for feelings that seemed wrong and out of place. I think maybe I’m working through that though.

It is totally natural for emotional intimacy to feel warm and loving, and for those feelings to cross over into sexual feelings or attraction. Have you ever had the experience outside of therapy where someone suddenly becomes much more attractive to you after you know them better and start connecting emotionally? It is also talked about in our society about how for some people sex is more of an emotional experience than just an action. The emotional-sexual connection is normal and well known.

So then, if the emotional-sexual connection is natural and normal, why should I (or you) feel shame for experiencing that normal range of emotion within therapy? One of my goals in therapy is to learn how to feel my own emotions. Surprise! That just happened to be one of them. I think that recently I’ve gotten to the place where I feel like saying “yes I felt that, so what!”. My feelings were normal, and my therapist was supposed to support me in that. I didn’t do anything wrong – I didn’t solicit those feelings or my therapist.

I still sometimes feel shame, even though I know I shouldn't, but I'm also kind of glad I had this experience. I learned a tremendous amount about myself through examining those feelings and what they meant to me. Isn't that what therapy is about?

In my therapy I went through a whole range - from fear and distance, through trust and intimacy, and yes through some sexual feelings that were about a normal response to intimacy. It was about me, not her. I now know more about why my relationships fail, what I need in relationships, my own emotional range, what true intimacy is, and how all of that should tie into a sexual relationship outside of therapy. I’ve learned some about my core inner need for connection. Super valuable learning experience!

Your relationship with your therapist is intimate, it just is. That comes with the territory if you do deep work. Maybe there are also physical or personality aspects to her that are attractive too, so what? What does that mean about what is appealing to you? What if you could just let your experience of this intimacy be exactly as it is, just accept that, and learn from it? Acceptance does not mean you have to act on it or make it central to your relationship. I think in fact it is just the opposite. When I struggle against something and shame works its way in it all becomes bigger. What would you learn about yourself if you let go of the shame and just openly examined this attraction and feelings you have? What do those feelings mean about you and what you need?

My thoughts here come a lot from my own experience, so I'm sorry if it doesn't match where you are or what you need right now. I'm not sure what you need but wanted to try to help.

Turtle

[unaluna]

Turtle 2 - very wise words. To just observe and accept.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by turtle2

Rainbow

There are some very smart people on this site who have responded to your post with some good insight. I'm often impressed by the collective wisdom and caring here. I don’t know very much about parts work as I haven't done much of that work myself. I did resonate with some of the feelings you were talking about though and want to try to support you in that aspect.
Thank you very much!
What I hear in your post is that you are struggling against those feelings of attraction for your t, and those feelings bringing on shame. You just want it all to go away. It would be ok for those feelings if they came from a childlike place, but it is not ok for you as the adult. It sounds like a huge amount of energy is going into fighting those feelings.

Did I understand what you said right - that in IFS the concept is that maybe the part of you that feels attraction also needs compassion and acceptance too?

Maybe the core of the problem here is not the attraction, but the shame?
Yes, I do think it's about the shame for having the attraction. All parts are supposed to be accepted in IFS.
In my experience, which may not be the same as yours, I also felt a lot of shame for feelings that seemed wrong and out of place. I think maybe I’m working through that though.

It is totally natural for emotional intimacy to feel warm and loving, and for those feelings to cross over into sexual feelings or attraction. Have you ever had the experience outside of therapy where someone suddenly becomes much more attractive to you after you know them better and start connecting emotionally? It is also talked about in our society about how for some people sex is more of an emotional experience than just an action. The emotional-sexual connection is normal and well known.

So then, if the emotional-sexual connection is natural and normal, why should I (or you) feel shame for experiencing that normal range of emotion within therapy? One of my goals in therapy is to learn how to feel my own emotions. Surprise! That just happened to be one of them. I think that recently I’ve gotten to the place where I feel like saying “yes I felt that, so what!”. My feelings were normal, and my therapist was supposed to support me in that. I didn’t do anything wrong – I didn’t solicit those feelings or my therapist.
You're right. My T keeps telling me that my feelings for her are all right and not to eel ashamed.
I still sometimes feel shame, even though I know I shouldn't, but I'm also kind of glad I had this experience. I learned a tremendous amount about myself through examining those feelings and what they meant to me. Isn't that what therapy is about? Yes. It's helpful to explore the feelings about my T in the therapy. I agree.

In my therapy I went through a whole range - from fear and distance, through trust and intimacy, and yes through some sexual feelings that were about a normal response to intimacy. It was about me, not her. I now know more about why my relationships fail, what I need in relationships, my own emotional range, what true intimacy is, and how all of that should tie into a sexual relationship outside of therapy. I’ve learned some about my core inner need for connection. Super valuable learning experience!

Your relationship with your therapist is intimate, it just is. That comes with the territory if you do deep work. Maybe there are also physical or personality aspects to her that are attractive too, so what? What does that mean about what is appealing to you? What if you could just let your experience of this intimacy be exactly as it is, just accept that, and learn from it? Acceptance does not mean you have to act on it or make it central to your relationship. I think in fact it is just the opposite. When I struggle against something and shame works its way in it all becomes bigger. What would you learn about yourself if you let go of the shame and just openly examined this attraction and feelings you have? What do those feelings mean about you and what you need?
You sound like my T. She says to accept the feelings, and yes, there is a lot about my T I find appealing. It would be better to just accept that about myself. I'm attracted to her and "so what". It's hard, though. And distracting in my session, too!
My thoughts here come a lot from my own experience, so I'm sorry if it doesn't match where you are or what you need right now. I'm not sure what you need but wanted to try to help.
[B]What you posted was very helpful[B]
Turtle

I'm going to post more, but just want to say "thanks"! What you wrote is almost exactly what my T told me today!

[rainbow8]

First I'm going to write about my session. I'm still a little shaky from it. When I told my T I wanted to talk about that part, and then hesitated because I couldn't get the words out, she said "you mean the part that is in love with me?"

It's SO hard for me to look at her while talking about this stuff! I took one of her "toys" and played with it so I'd have something in my hands.

T asked me to put the "judging part" on the sofa next to me like we used to do, and talk with the part who has these feelings. She kept using the word "fantasy' but I said it's not; it's real feelings. I finally managed to tell her that I (couldn't get away from the judging part after all) didn't like to be attracted to her. She asked me if I felt this way towards others in my past, which she's asked me before. We talked about how it was worse with my first T.

We decided it's complicated because I don't feel those feelings for my H, and I wish I did. I had to make it clear to her again that I don't want to be naked with her! I actually told her that. She knew that already.

We didn't really talk about integration or anything specific to IFS. She wants to know if I can accept those feelings and move on. She said not to be ashamed of thinking she's pretty, or being attracted to her. Don't I think other women are pretty sometimes? she asked. I said it's not the same! She said because I fantasize about it. I kept denying that I do that but finally admitted that maybe I do.

I wanted to make it clear to her that finding her attractive isn't something I do on purpose. She just affects me that way. I think she understands. When I talk about it being bad, she asks where I got that from. We already talked in the past about how it's not bad to have feelings for women. It was bad when I grew up, and was unacceptable. I said I don't know what's transference and what isn't. She never uses the word "transference".

I got a little sad talking about not having those feelings for my H, and wondering if I could have had a different kind of marriage. I have to grieve for what I didn't have. I'm attracted to my T, but not to my H.

So, I have to try to notice the part, accept that it's all right to be attracted to T, and realize it's because I want the romance/attraction in my own life but I don't have it. Plus the shame factor--I have to remember it's not something to be ashamed of.

I'll have to see how it goes. I feel better knowing T isn't upset by my feelings for her. It's only ME who is upset.