Last week, at the end of the session, the T asked "if I could change one thing in my life, what would it be?" Of course, the things I wanted changed were all impossible to change: sexual orientation, baldness, my body / looks. I got so upset that I had to call the T that night and leave a message. We spoke the next day. Obviously, she said, we can only work on things that can be changed. No kidding.

Met with the T again yesterday. She advised there was very little she could help me with. I am not sure that I should go back and waste my time.

I told the T that I don't want a relationship and don't like sex or my sexual orientation. She brought up changing my thoughts but, having had long-term cognitive therapy before, told her that was a waste of time. Despite all of the positive spin she tries to put on things, everything just goes wrong for me like I am cursed. I've found that changing my thoughts did not improve outcomes. I am not handsome or a great conversationalist and people don't want to be around me. Changing thoughts and, to the extent possible, behavior, cannot alter the behavior of others.

Recently, I have come to the conclusion that I am asexual as I never enjoyed sex much and have been avoiding it for a long time. It appears, however, that T's are not very familiar with this orientation. The asexual community is very small. Generally, people's friends are of the same sexual orientation. I do not fit in in the LGBT community nor with the heterosexual community as I have no mate or kids. The T does not seem to know what to advise. The chances of finding a T who is knowledgeable about asexual issues is very low, even here in the big city.

[unaluna]

The good news is, PC seems to attract asexuals like flies to guano.

[Pennster]

That sounds hard- I wonder would it help you to meet other people who identify as asexual? I just tried googling the words asexual and therapist and the name of my city, and a whole bunch of things popped up, including asexual social groups. (There are a lot of such groups on meetup.com)

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by unguy

Last week, at the end of the session, the T asked "if I could change one thing in my life, what would it be?" Of course, the things I wanted changed were all impossible to change: sexual orientation, baldness, my body / looks. I got so upset that I had to call the T that night and leave a message. We spoke the next day. Obviously, she said, we can only work on things that can be changed. No kidding.

Met with the T again yesterday. She advised there was very little she could help me with. I am not sure that I should go back and waste my time.

I told the T that I don't want a relationship and don't like sex or my sexual orientation. She brought up changing my thoughts but, having had long-term cognitive therapy before, told her that was a waste of time. Despite all of the positive spin she tries to put on things, everything just goes wrong for me like I am cursed. I've found that changing my thoughts did not improve outcomes. I am not handsome or a great conversationalist and people don't want to be around me. Changing thoughts and, to the extent possible, behavior, cannot alter the behavior of others.

Recently, I have come to the conclusion that I am asexual as I never enjoyed sex much and have been avoiding it for a long time. It appears, however, that T's are not very familiar with this orientation. The asexual community is very small. Generally, people's friends are of the same sexual orientation. I do not fit in in the LGBT community nor with the heterosexual community as I have no mate or kids. The T does not seem to know what to advise. The chances of finding a T who is knowledgeable about asexual issues is very low, even here in the big city.

Hi Unguy,

Your situation sounds really difficult and painful. I can understand why you would feel that you don't fit in anywhere. What I am wondering is, if you don't have any desire for an intimate physical relationship, wouldn't it be possible for you to pursue friendship relationships that don't include that element? Maybe I am missing something, and correct me if I am. But couldn't you view your situation similarly to someone who is single and not looking for an intimate partner? Why would you have to limit your relationships to LGBT groups? Couldn't you make friends with other single people from various walks of life?

[atisketatasket]

I understand she can't actually do anything about your baldness or actual sexual orientation. But surely she can help you make peace with them so you don't feel so lousy?

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[BayBrony]

Usually from a practical standpoint in your situation your best options are people who share a strong interest with you. For example I keep parrots and ride horses and I know many people through both activities who share my passions and want to be social without expecting any romantic interest or caring about my sexual orientation.

It sounds like you are feeling a bit hopeless about things in your life at the moment? It also sounds like your T is experiencing counter transference (I'm not sure if that is the right word), and she has taken on board those feelings and has started to feel them too. I don't know how long you've been seeing the T, but I wonder if she has the right skills or approach?

[Stormyclouds]

how long have you been seeing this T?

[divine1966]

What about hobby groups? It doesn't have to involve any intimacy just shared interests

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[Bill3]

Obviously, she said, we can only work on things that can be changed.

I disagree with this statement.

We can work on mourning the losses, the pain we experience over what we cannot change.

Mourning does not try to put a positive spin on things. Mourning frankly recognizes the losses, openly experiences the pain. Mourning states and explores how it feels to be what we are.

Mourning helps us let go of what we cannot have. It helps us come to accept and use what we can have, what we have left.

A T should be able to help us mourn our losses.

[LonesomeTonight]

What Bill3 said.

For example, my T can't magically go back in time and change how my parents related to me and didn't meet my emotional needs. But she can help me deal with how it affects me now and, as Bill3 said, mourn that loss.

Originally Posted by Bill3

I disagree with this statement.

We can work on mourning the losses, the pain we experience over what we cannot change.

Mourning does not try to put a positive spin on things. Mourning frankly recognizes the losses, openly experiences the pain. Mourning states and explores how it feels to be what we are.

Mourning helps us let go of what we cannot have. It helps us come to accept and use what we can have, what we have left.

A T should be able to help us mourn our losses.

[nottrustin]

How do you want her to , some of the things that you would liked to be changed can't. Since they can't be changed them the way you them it is a matter of learning to deal with it. However if you feel changing your thought process is a waste of time what do you think WILL HELP?

Originally Posted by nottrustin

How do you want her to , some of the things that you would liked to be changed can't. Since they can't be changed them the way you them it is a matter of learning to deal with it. However if you feel changing your thought process is a waste of time what do you think WILL HELP?

There is nothing wrong with my thought process. It's based on my previous personal experiences. Being repeatedly given instructions to ignore my past experiences is not going to happen. I am NOT going to repeat patterns that don't work because a T wants me to think otherwise. I am not going to change my values because a T thinks I should take more "chances" when previous behavior proved disastrous.

Just because you can't change something does not mean that you should accept a lifestyle that you don't like or want. I have experienced so much repeated abuse from being gay both in and outside of the gay community that I have lost all interest in life. The religious lies, the prejudice, the hurtful people, the shallow lifestyle - I'm better locking myself in my apartment and not coming out.

Originally Posted by peaches100

Hi Unguy,

Your situation sounds really difficult and painful. I can understand why you would feel that you don't fit in anywhere. What I am wondering is, if you don't have any desire for an intimate physical relationship, wouldn't it be possible for you to pursue friendship relationships that don't include that element? Maybe I am missing something, and correct me if I am. But couldn't you view your situation similarly to someone who is single and not looking for an intimate partner? Why would you have to limit your relationships to LGBT groups? Couldn't you make friends with other single people from various walks of life?

You would think that others are interested in platonic friendships but I have not experienced that. You have to bring other things to the table to be someone who others desire as a friend. I don't seem to have those desired qualities - looks, fabulousness, money, partying ways, etc. I don't fit into either straight or gay circles. I'm too intellectual and introverted.

I joined a gay church group. Thought it would be a safe place. I have major spiritual issues that I wanted to focus on. Shockingly, people started hitting on me. I just wanted to be friends and so did they but our definitions were different. They slept with their friends; I did not want to get intimate with friends. Even one of the priests told me that I would be happier if I had sex. I was not there for sex. I was there for spiritual healing. At another church, I did not find acceptance at all. In fact, I thought the people were mean. It has been one disappointing experience after another. I am not so naive anymore that people merely want to be platonic friends.

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

What Bill3 said.

For example, my T can't magically go back in time and change how my parents related to me and didn't meet my emotional needs. But she can help me deal with how it affects me now and, as Bill3 said, mourn that loss.

The neglect by my parents ruined me. There is no fixing it. Instead of getting better, I only seem to get worse. I lack a basic understanding of relationships having had parents who strung me along thinking that if I only did things for them and took their advice that I would find their acceptance - which never materialized. Their manipulation destroyed my trust in people. Others behavior has ruined my trust in people too. Bad advice from Ts - especially the cognitive ones - have destroyed my trust in therapy. At this point all I can accept is that I am unloved and unloveable. I don't trust anyone anymore. I don't believe in anything. I don't want anyone to even touch me.

[SkyscraperMeow]

I'm sorry you feel so bad. Unfortunately, the world is full of less than awesome people doing less than awesome things. That doesn't preclude some more than awesome people from existing though.

It's an unfortunate reality that T's will occasionally say silly things, and perhaps even give you bad advice. I find being generally surly tends to keep people from hitting on me. Have you tried being generally surly?

I guess the thing is that people who 'succeed' in any sense in life either do so because a) they get lucky early on and stick with what they get or b) they keep trying.

I can't tell you that people won't suck, don't suck or will never hit on you again. But I can tell you that if you give up altogether, it's a self fulfilling prophecy that things won't get better.

People have fallen in love with the Eiffel Tower and the Berlin Wall. People fall in love with serial killers. There's almost nothing and no-one who is actually unloveable. There are people who have taken themselves out of circulation though, and therefore can't find love, platonic or otherwise because nobody knows they're there.

Also, the fact that people hit on you seems to suggest that people find you attractive and interesting , so that's a start right? Even if you don't want to be in a sexual relationship, people still want you and consider you likeable enough to approach.

I don't know, it sort of seems like you're insisting on interpreting everything in a negative fashion. Nobody wants you, but people won't stop hitting on you. See the contradiction there?

There are lots of intellectual introverts out there. Lots and lots. A great many. Millions, probably. Odds are you could meet and strike up a friendship with one of them.

[divine1966]

You don't need money looks or fabulousness to socialize with others. If you do want to socialize. You might enjoy solitude and it's ok too.

Do you have hobbies or interests like anything? Do you read or write or play music or collect something?

So you are intellectual, that's good. Well there are many other intellectuals out there. You are not alone. In fact if you are intellectual you most likely have things you are interested in? Politics? History? Philosophy?

Also where do you live? Must be very conservative community that you are being so heavily mistreated as gay. I know many gay people in two different countries and they are doing ok. I am not saying there is no discrimination but they are comfortable in day to day life

Yes people do like platonic friendships. You don't think people sleep with their friends do you? People do have platonic friends or social groups. Did you try meetup? When you socialize with others I doubt they would even care if you are asexual or not. I found social groups in meetup and they never wondered about my sex life.

I think your t just wants you be more positive

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[Bill3]

You just expressed many of your beliefs. I gather that in the past Ts have tried to challenge and change these beliefs. A mourning approach would be to express your feelings about what has happened and cannot be changed. For example, your personal history perhaps makes you feel lost, rejected, hopeless.

Originally Posted by SkyscraperMeow

I'm sorry you feel so bad. Unfortunately, the world is full of less than awesome people doing less than awesome things. That doesn't preclude some more than awesome people from existing though.

It's an unfortunate reality that T's will occasionally say silly things, and perhaps even give you bad advice. I find being generally surly tends to keep people from hitting on me. Have you tried being generally surly?

I guess the thing is that people who 'succeed' in any sense in life either do so because a) they get lucky early on and stick with what they get or b) they keep trying.

I can't tell you that people won't suck, don't suck or will never hit on you again. But I can tell you that if you give up altogether, it's a self fulfilling prophecy that things won't get better.

People have fallen in love with the Eiffel Tower and the Berlin Wall. People fall in love with serial killers. There's almost nothing and no-one who is actually unloveable. There are people who have taken themselves out of circulation though, and therefore can't find love, platonic or otherwise because nobody knows they're there.

Also, the fact that people hit on you seems to suggest that people find you attractive and interesting , so that's a start right? Even if you don't want to be in a sexual relationship, people still want you and consider you likeable enough to approach.

I don't know, it sort of seems like you're insisting on interpreting everything in a negative fashion. Nobody wants you, but people won't stop hitting on you. See the contradiction there?

There are lots of intellectual introverts out there. Lots and lots. A great many. Millions, probably. Odds are you could meet and strike up a friendship with one of them.

1. I am not and do not wish to be a surly person.

2. The people who hit on me are looking for sex - not friendship and not love. I have never liked sleeping with strangers I barely know in order to get to know them better. Lately, I've decided to stand my ground. It's not what I want and I'm not going to make the mistake of doing it any more. For me, it does not work.

3. I did not choose to be gay. I don't like being gay. I don't fit in the gay community - my values are different. I don't fit in the straight community. I don't enjoy gay sex. Never did. The problem with being gay is an issue that I am unable to deal with. It is not a life that I want.

4. I was raised to be an asexual caretaker. That's what I became. That's what I am even though the caretaking duties have ended. I grew up denied of affection. As an adult, to me intimacy is a strange world that I don't understand or enjoy. T's try to nurture me but I am no longer a child and they are not my parents. It's a dynamic that is resented and ineffective yet they keep trying and wasting my time. I grew up isolated with no toys or playmates - my parents' believing that I should be raised as an adult from the start because childhood was not necessary. Their experiment has been a disaster for my life. T's can't seem to treat it nor grasp the magnitude of the problem.

... unguy ...

All I can say is that when I read your post(s), I can utterly relate on so many levels and it hurts my heart to see you hurting this way, and I wish I knew how to fix it for those of us who don't really fit into any of the narrow, prescribed boxes that this big old world likes to try to neatly package everybody into.

We're among those who are indefinable and that scares the hell out of most folks because they simply don't know what to do with a person, place or thing that can't be neatly categorized and placed into a compartment for "safe keeping".

They are so desperately trying to maintain their own levels of comfort that they fail to comprehend how badly they are wounding others with their oft inappropriate and misplaced comments and behaviors!

I'm not making excuses for them! There are no excuses! Especially for a "trained professional"! And, for those of us who were already bullied, rejected and deeply wounded by our families of origin, the hurt we feel is magnified thousands of times more each and every time we get hurt in the same manner again!

[eeyorestail]

The things she says about "changing your thoughts" and "putting a positive spin" sound very CBT-oriented. Does she only use CBT? Unfortunately it is not for everyone and it can be very frustrating when it is pushed on you in that kind of situation.

Would it be possible to find a different T who uses psychodynamic therapy, or ACT, or DBT?

I'm sorry you haven't been able to get the help you need from your T.

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[Rive.]

If T says she cannot help you, she's not the right T for you. There is always *something* one can do to improve one's quality of life.

You mention a few issues but I have to say I am not sure 'real'/genuine friends look for flash or fabulousness. Real, lasting, relationships are more than just skin-deep. Also, attractiveness is a rather subjective concept. So I wouldn't write yourself off..

I'm also somewhat confused as you stated you were asexual then that you were gay? Doesn't matter anyway but it seems you aren't meeting people who resonate with you or are attuned to you. As they say, there is always hope. It's a matter of you not giving up on yourself, keep trying and put yourself out there (i.e. expand your circles of acquaintanceship, or interests etc).

I went to the clinic asking for DBT and, as before, was denied. It was deemed that I don't require it. But, I really do. Instead, I get the same old ineffective treatment. This was the second time that I've been denied DBT even though I specifically asked for it and it was recommended by a T. I will reiterate my request at my next T visit.

I recently came to the conclusion that I am asexual. Though I have an attraction to men, I was never really that sexual. I was criticized for not being more sexual and am disliked in the NYC LGBT community for not having a partner and for not dating. When the AIDS epidemic hit, having been raised to be asexual, I found it easier to abstain that take risks having sex. Some Ts would encourage me to be safely sexual but I was, in reality, slowing losing the desire to keep trying. The enjoyment was not there, only the need for it to calm my sex drive. Secretly, I did not want to be sexual at all. Finally, in the last two years, I began identifying as asexual. My behavior was too conservative for the gay 12-step CODA meetings I used to attend. All the participants would repeat during the meeting that they sought love instead of just sex and then, behind the scenes, there were lively sexcapades going on that I was not told about and did not participate in. When I shared that I sought love instead of sex, I really meant it. Maybe the others did too on some level but where I had a strict interpretation of the reinforcing statement, their interpretations were much, much looser. I did not find out for a long time what was really going on. When I rejected someone's come-on after a meeting and shared about it anonymously without mentioning the other person's name, I was practically ejected from the program. The person who came-on to me was a well-known 13th stepper. He had a lot of friends and a lot of power. And, he was a really sick guy - maybe a sociopath as he was very controlling. I was devastated to be ejected and what they did set me way back. T's never asked if I enjoyed sex even though it was obvious that I wasn't having any. My asexuality was fairly obvious all along; I was fooled by my same-sex attraction. I did know though that my actual desire for intimacy was low. At that time, the trauma of my youth had not been diagnosed. Maybe a really smart T would have picked up on it but none did. In retrospect, that is a huge disappointment.

[SkyscraperMeow]

Originally Posted by unguy

1. I am not and do not wish to be a surly person.

2. The people who hit on me are looking for sex - not friendship and not love. I have never liked sleeping with strangers I barely know in order to get to know them better. Lately, I've decided to stand my ground. It's not what I want and I'm not going to make the mistake of doing it any more. For me, it does not work.

3. I did not choose to be gay. I don't like being gay. I don't fit in the gay community - my values are different. I don't fit in the straight community. I don't enjoy gay sex. Never did. The problem with being gay is an issue that I am unable to deal with. It is not a life that I want.

4. I was raised to be an asexual caretaker. That's what I became. That's what I am even though the caretaking duties have ended. I grew up denied of affection. As an adult, to me intimacy is a strange world that I don't understand or enjoy. T's try to nurture me but I am no longer a child and they are not my parents. It's a dynamic that is resented and ineffective yet they keep trying and wasting my time. I grew up isolated with no toys or playmates - my parents' believing that I should be raised as an adult from the start because childhood was not necessary. Their experiment has been a disaster for my life. T's can't seem to treat it nor grasp the magnitude of the problem.

Okay, the surly thing was somewhat of a joke, though I guess it didn't come off at all. What I really mean is that it is possible to behave in ways that people won't come onto you - or are much, much less likely to. Most people aren't being constantly hit on, so there may very well be a different way to present yourself so that you are not so often hit on.

I guess things are complicated by the gay groups which seem to be acting as hookup spots rather than genuine support groups. I can definitely understand that being very alienating.

However, there are lots of places you can go where you won't be hit on. The world is full of people crying out for friendship. What about a hobby largely attended by straight men? You're unlikely to be hit on engaging in that sort of thing. Sport, computers, D&D, those RC planes... I can think of a number of social hobbies that won't involve being hit on.

We can be raised to be one thing and become something else of our own choosing. I hope you can get access to the treatment you want! For what it's worth, I think it is possible to be nurtured as an adult, though I also think it would feel very weird and possibly distressing if you've never experienced it before - and if it's not something you're interested in, then there's nothing wrong with refusing it.

Originally Posted by SkyscraperMeow

However, there are lots of places you can go where you won't be hit on. The world is full of people crying out for friendship. What about a hobby largely attended by straight men? You're unlikely to be hit on engaging in that sort of thing. Sport, computers, D&D, those RC planes... I can think of a number of social hobbies that won't involve being hit on.

Thanks for your sincere, well-intentioned attempts but my decades of experience thinks that your suggestions are naive. I am nearly 60 years old - can't see myself playing computer games with much younger people. In fact, I can't see myself playing computer games at all. Trying to hang with straight men is just asking to be shunned. What sounds good on paper is not a reality.