Hangng on to the Undefined Relationship

I struggle with holding on to T from session to session. I told him that when I feel disconnected from him I feel disconnected from me.

I don't understand the intensity of the relationship as it exists. I expect it to falter, to be disappointed, rejected or, more likely, ignored. I have lived as though I am alone, and have made my peace with that concept. So, to be cared for, feels like I am smothering.

I know I was so very alone as a child, and that close relationships terrify me, because on some level I am afraid of re-experiencing that loneliness.

I have been entertaining the idea of relying on T and getting what I need from the relationship. What this means for me is that I have to open my heart, and that is so very frightening. Little by little I have begun to reveal my innermost feelings. And that is when I become scared of losing T. (Remember, he holds my pieces at those moments.)

Usually by mid-week I become disconnected; put myself through a mind trip about how I'm just another client; and decide to buck up and get a hold of myself and get a grip.

This morning, walking the dog, thinking about T, and worrying, I had a revelation. It's Friday and I'm still thinking about him in the current context. I haven't lost him; So I am not disconnected now. I am so relieved. Maybe my heart just opened a tiny bit more.

I can't wait to see him on Monday and tell him the good news.

I am glad that you have felt the connection.....The relationship is sticking.

My question is earlier you mentioned suffocating. Are you afraid of suffocating or being suffocated?

Sister, Your post feels very similar to my post this morning....that wanting to hold onto something from the relationship...I've noticed that my thinking is the first sign of change and internalisation...something happens and my reaction/thoughts have changed...those are the ways I feel I have hold of T..

I don't think it is a "thing" though that you can "keep" like a token; it has to be continuously re-created and re-realized moment-to-moment and my T was telling me how it's okay to NOT feel connected; one can't ever be all of one thing or another forever. It's like thinking one can be "happy" all the time. Connection is a similar kind of feeling. For me, I just didn't need to question anymore whether I could connect or disconnect at will? It wasn't something magical and beyond my control anymore, something "out there" but rather became something of mine, in me.

Secret,

Good question re the suffocation. Hmmmm, I think I am afraid of being suffocated. It's like being smothered, and claustrophobia...all connected feelings.

Once i went on a ride with my kids at Disney world where they simulated a submarine ride. I had the first panic attack of my life, but didn't know what was happening to me. I literally broke out in hives at the thought of being underwater...Yikes!!

I wonder what that means?

More food for thougt, anyway thanks.

Mouse,

Yes we have very similar posts.

The "something" that happens, I believe, is on the subconscious level, no?

Do you mean that when your reaction/thoughts change, they are the manifestation of the "something?" And that manifestation is the "proof" that you and T have connected? ARE Connected?

Perna,

I agree..I don't believe it is a "thing" to hold onto. What I am referring to, though, is the ABILITY to reconnect with T, in my mind; something that has been very difficult for me to date without some sort of physical contact such as a telephone conversation, or an extra session. What I have experienced, then is the inability to reconnect.

T explained it this way: When we are babies we form a bond with our mothers. As we grow into toddlers and nursery school aged children that bond and the trust within has grown to the point where we can trust that she will be there after school to pick us up. It's called object constancy. For whatever reason that process was disrupted for me. So after a few days have elapsed beyond my session, it's as though the bond between me and T doesn't exist anymore. I have no object constancy.

Thank you for your thoughts. It helped me to think this through a little further.

Yes is in the subconsious level. When I try to create the connection its to contrived. Its in my new thoughts and feelings that I feel T the most, when my old reactions are sudden absent and these new reactions, way of being is suddenly there, except its not until I'm faced with a situation that brings these new thoughts, reactions into play do I notice how much I have internalised T.

It reminds me of how a child must feel when facing a challenge in life and fall back upon their mothers to see how their mothers face these same challenges, except it happens so quick it just becomes part of who we are. I've taken qualitys from T and adjusted them into my value system and they morph together, I feel their mine but am aware of seeing them in T also.

Yes, sister, I had that problem too; my mother died when I was 3 and that's almost the first thing my T said was that I was lacking object constancy.

It was a little complicated getting "up" to her office so she wrote me a note the first time I came and put it on the outside main door and I kept the note for over a year and finally confessed to it and gave it "back" to her, telling her I didn't need it anymore :-) She was amazed and pleased that I had kept it and used it that way so well for myself. I use to mail her cards and letters every week to help me stay/feel connected but it eventually worked the opposite direction as I didn't have to feel quite as lonely and afraid and be with myself in my unconnection between sessions so I did a 6 week "test" where I didn't write her at all but only was "with" her 100% during our sessions. It changed everything for me.

Ahhh Perna, I am so jealous of your note. I wish I could get T to write me a note. I would do exactly what you did. Hang on to it for a very long time. Maybe I'll ask him for an appointment card next time!!

My mother was very much alive and died when I was 40. However, she was unable to give me the relationship I so needed. As a young adult I did everything I could to capture her praise. Marriage, good job, children, etc. It's only now that I am realizing what all that was bout. Wistful sigh...

Mouse,

Yes, I do the same thing.

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I've taken qualitys from T and adjusted them into my value system and they morph together,

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This has become particularly true for me when dealing with my own chldren. I find myelf behaving as T would with me!

interesting Sister....and Mouse...

I am sure I have done the same thing...

I save any email I get from my pdoc or T and I recorded a vm message from pdoc to mp3 so I can play it even though the quality is very poor. *silly* Writting emails helps me keep connected too.

I hadn't heard about object constancy before. I wonder if it plays a part for me. Maybe with men. I get more clingy with men and more distant with women. I'm paranoid of losing friends of either sex. It's like they die when they go away. I switch back and forth between distance and clingyness. It's confusing. Want of connection & fear of engulfment battling it out I guess. Too much of my mom and too little of my dad growing up?

WinterRose said:

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It's like they die when they go away.

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Well, that sounds like an object constancy issue to me but hey, I 'm not the therapist here. Does it frighten you? Do you feel abandoned? Or is it like you just move on to the next thing. I have a lot of all of those feelings.

Sometimes I think I could just quit therapy right this minute and move on. I mean I could do this without a blink of an eye and other than a few cringes, just forget about all the work we have done and forget about him. That is when I am REALLY disconnected, in an unhealthy way. No object constancy, no relationship constancy. in this example, the relationship is the object I think. A week is too long for me between sessions. I wish I could go 2 x per week but it's too expensive.

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A week is too long for me between sessions. I wish I could go 2 x per week but it's too expensive.

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I hear ya! I have the same feelings - want more, but it's too expensive. I'd be happy with once a week. But I've adjusted - it's getting to be ok, except for the times when I'm having an issue/difficulty/problem with something.

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Does it frighten you? Do you feel abandoned?

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Paniced and abandoned would cover my feelings alright. I'll try to remember to talk to T about object constancy next week. That'd be good.

Sister, That feeling as if we die when they go away, I think gets easier as we become stronger inside. I think its that we put into them/others what is ours in the first place. I think its a case of gradually learning to take back our own personal power.

Its feeling that sense of self and holding onto that whilst alone that I struggle with. For me being abandoned in the very first days of life I never learnt to grow that strong ego identity at the age appropriate time.

I feel like the theraputic room is the womb and the more I sit and talk and talk, no matter what I talk about, I am learning who I AM and who T IS.

When I come away from sessions now I do feel a greater sense of WHO I AM. Its still not enought yet.

I remember T once saying to me in my first yr of T, that when she goes away, I feel as if she is taking something away, but she's not.

I don't know why its so hard to become self aware, self contained, its like I do not trust enought in myself yet, I guess because my earliest pre verbal memorys are of being seperated from my womb/birth mother which felt like part of me, the rip/tear is the feeling memory I struggle with. I am still emotionally connected to that safe place, the womb, which for all us feels like who we are for ever

When T's not there if feels like that rip/tear/self seperation is happening all over again. Cept its not quite as bad now because I am indivdulising more now. I exist for longer times away from T. I keep in mind that sense of self longer, instead of transferring that sense of self INTO T, or anyone else I attached too.

Its a wierd feeling as you start to take back your self transferrance, people loose their power, you see them for who they are, the panic that will go away easiests.

I sometimes think, wow what do I do now with that space where I've made everyone so important to my surival? Well I use it to make myself more important to myself. Not sure if that makes sense? I have more internal dialouge going on, instead of looking outside of me to others to depend on, I spend time wondering what I like, and actually experiencing a feeling that directs me.

Its like my vision is going between them out there, and me inside and the balance changes until I know who I am and what role others play in reality, which sometimes is a little disappointing after putting them up so high on a peddle stool LOL.

Mouse,

What an absorbing response. I am not as far as you with individuation as i am just now beginning to realize how connected I am to T. I have been seeing him for about 9 months now, but the first 5 or so months were more supportive in nature because of family crises.

I remember the first time he took a week off at Christmas time and I had been seeing him for about 3 months and he said it was going to be difficult and I thought, "What the heck is he talking about?" By the time he came back I wanted to camp out in his office!!

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I feel like the theraputic room is the womb

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I like thinking of the therapeutic room as "the healing room." But I think womb is a more appropriate metaphor.

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When I come away from sessions now I do feel a greater sense of WHO I AM

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Yay Mouse!!! That is wonderful. I'm still searching for me...haven't found her yet.
Why? Although I grew up in a large family, with 2 parents, it was a severely dysfunctional situation. My mother was overwhelmed, father was alcoholic, abusive grandmother, etc. I was alone much of the time.

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instead of looking outside of me to others to depend on,

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Yes, I depend heavily on others--to define me. Working on looking within now.

Yes, when those people fall of the the high pedestal we have placed them on, they look so damned human again, don't they? I just wish I felt more of an individual right now than an empty shell.

Thanks Mouse for sharing this.

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sister said:
I have been entertaining the idea of relying on T and getting what I need from the relationship. What this means for me is that I have to open my heart, and that is so very frightening.

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That is so scary. I understand completely. ((((sister)))) I think you are doing it already, and there will be many temptations to pull back. Maybe the disconnecting mid week is a way to protect yourself from the intensity of opening yourself up to T, and with time and practice and increasing comfort in the closeness of the relationship, you will not need to do that anymore.

I think that many people go to therapy and have to work hard with T to let him/her in, to let feelings surface that we have submerged for years and years, behind many defenses. When we let those things surface, we need a person to attach to and help fill the void and reassure against the terror. Thus, the T, standing there waiting to be the one. It just makes it easier to unravel oneself if there is someone there to be with us. This was not intuitive to me at all, but that is how it has seemed.

There has been an interesting discussion later in this thread on depending on self vs. others.
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mouse wrote:
I sometimes think, wow what do I do now with that space where I've made everyone so important to my surival? Well I use it to make myself more important to myself. I have more internal dialouge going on, instead of looking outside of me to others to depend on...

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sister wrote:
I depend heavily on others--to define me. Working on looking within now.

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I see a bit of that in myself, perhaps, but maybe even more so, I see the opposite. I am very bad at depending on others. I am an island and have even prided myself on that, on being self sufficient, on needing no one. I remember as a little girl, in the repeated firestorms of my mother screaming at the top of her lungs at me, at point blank range, with my not being allowed to go anywhere or say anything as she did this, that I had a mantra I would recite in my head, over and over, "I don't need anyone, I don't need anyone, I don't need anyone." This helped me get through my childhood, and it is still with me as an adult. I try to overcome it. Something my first counselor helped me work on was learning that I cannot do it all alone, that it is OK to reach out to other people for support. She said, as my counselor, she could not do it all, and I needed to develop an outside support network of family and friends to help me through the tough times. This was perhaps the most valuable thing I got from her--beginning to strive to not be so insular and self-contained. It doesn't come naturally for me because of my childhood history, but in the last year and a half, I have tried to cultivate my outside relationships and accept that there are other people who care and worry about me and are willing to help. If I will let them. My relationship with my 2 sisters has improved. And my mother. And some friendships too. Perhaps this was partly even the reason I left this first counselor and found an even more helpful and supportive therapist--I was building up my network and admitting to myself I couldn't do it all on my own.

Anyway, I have felt that for me in therapy, it has been somewhat the opposite, that I have needed to learn to depend on others, rather than not depending on them and focusing on myself for sole support. Because I am a very strong individual. I don't need more me, but more other. Does that make sense?

Wow, this is so interesting.

Sunrise said:

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I am very bad at depending on others.

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I am too. I know I said that I depended on others but that is only to define who I am NOT for any sort of support, comfort, anything that smells of dependence. I know it is a paradox, but, I would look outside of myself and my family because I did not trust any of the available models for self-definition as I knew they were not worthy of emulation. So, maybe dependence is the wrong word, but looking to others to see who I am,or better what mask I could assume?
Like you, I refused to depend on family members for anything as I learned to keep my mouth shut and my needs to myself. It was better than exposing myself to abuse, ridicule, shame.

And, yes, slowly unraveling with T...not wanting it to become diluted with couples work.

I think for me I've denied myself the knowledge that I've depended on others. I've never asked anyone to help me, never did ask for help, but in my head, in my fantasys, in my alone times, I was depending on everything...I had this denial going on inside, I dont need anyone, unyet theres this needy child inside of me that twisted simple things people said, into some major line of concern from them.

In the begining of my online support, about 4yrs ago, I would check every 5mins to see if anyone had replied to me, why telling myself, I need no one.

Its all been silent and very hidden, my depending that is. I now no longer check every 5mins, infact if no one replys, thats fine, I no longer walk around imagining people are taking care of me in their minds, I just see people at face value, nod hello and think no more about it.

So in my imagination I was very dependent, but my actions said "no I am tough"..

I have certain times of strength and times of weakness. I wish I did not need the support that I perceive myself to need. It is sometimes disheartening.

Mouse,

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I was very dependent, but my actions said "no I am tough"

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Yes, I recognize that in me too. It's a way to self-protect/not feel the sting, huh?

I think part of the appeal of on-line support for me, is that I could pretend it wasn't real. Therefore, if I become/becme disappointed, I could pretend it didn't exist. That's my ultimate fantasy--I just zap people and/or myself away. Gone. Kaput. To my surprise, I found the same feelings creeping in--fear of abandonment, unresponsiveness, etc.

((Secret))

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I wish I did not need the support that I perceive myself to need.

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Oh yes, I feelt that way often. It's like I want to say to myself, "Okay, sister, enough of this therapy crap and moaning about yourself. Just live your life and get on with it."

However,now I try to hold onto the need for support even though the inclindation is to run from it. Our organic sructure is social in nature?

Damned if I do and damned if I don't.

The thing is to find healthy support systems and not ones that facilitate and support the pathologies. Sometimes that is hard to figure out. Been so long doing this...hard to know how to not do this.

I hear ya sistah.