[runlola72]

Hello,
My name is Lola. I'm in therapy with a psychologist for the umpteenth time, for various reasons (History of ADD, depression, anxiety, some autistic features, and a garden variety dysfunctional family/ messed up childhood). I have father hunger issues from having a dad (who I now realize has Asperger's) who abandoned me at age 2, taking my two older brothers with him, leaving my mom and me alone. I'm married going on 20 years, and while I love my husband, trust is difficult for me, and I feel like I always have one foot out the door. This has been a huge issue for us. We have two kids, one of whom is on the autism spectrum, and we decided to stay together for their benefit, because both of us came from such bad family situations growing up. We want better for them. And I do love the guy.... 20 years is a long time. Lots of emotions get stirred up when you've been stewing together that long. I'm leaving out a lot of stuff.

Anyway, I've been seeing this psychologist for 6 months. He might think I'm nuts, I am not sure. I am a grad student in a challenging program at a good school, so he knows I am smart. But I can see his wheels turning when I mention things that seem remotely like magical thinking. He's quite paternal, and I like him a lot. His boundaries are fairly strict. They were less strict at first, before he realized all the issues I have and thought I was maybe just a stressed out student. Now his emails are like a few words if he responds at all. I am ok with that, because I know I am a person who pushes boundaries. He is just trying to preserve the sanctity of the therapeutic environment.

I feel sort of attracted to him, (he is 20 years older) but from what I have read that is not uncommon, and could be me unconsciously trying to sabotage the work we are doing. I feel strong transference towards him, in that he reminds me a bit of an ex-boss who was very fatherly to me, and to whom I was also quite attracted. I feel strongly like I want to please him, and wonder if that affects the things I say in session. He's very closed about his own life, which I understand... The primal part of me wants a hug more than anything, but the more evolved part of me knows that would be a very bad thing. I have sort of obsessively checked his picture a few times a week for a few months, but I can't explain exactly why I do this. I'm pretty confused about my feelings for him, and would like tips on how to make it stop, and how to feel less dependent on him and our sessions in general. I'm a lonely person, with a few friends but no one who really gets me...so projection is sort of my superpower (not a very useful superpower, kinda gets in the way)...
Anyway, thanks for listening. Looking forward to reading other posts here.
Lola

[Waterbear]

Hello to you. I am sorry I can't offer much, I am a little wordless at the moment but just wanted to say hi.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by runlola72

I'm pretty confused about my feelings for him, and would like tips on how to make it stop, and how to feel less dependent on him and our sessions in general. I'm a lonely person, with a few friends but no one who really gets me

I was in a somewhat similar situation with a prior T. My feelings for her, the crippling dependency that developed, the longing… I took it all as purely about my own "issues". Took me a long time to realize that what was happening had everything to do with her behavior, her body language and other non-verbal cues, the way she was lavishing attention on me, the setup of therapy, the over-the-top intimacy of her tiny office which put us in close proximity.

I also have had few people in my life who get me, and this T seemed to get me more than anyone ever. Was intoxicating like a powerful drug. But how genuine was it? And to what end?

I dont have any tips and don't like giving advice, but I would suggest that you are not the problem. You are reacting in a natural way to what is happening. I wish I had never started the whole process. I see attachment in therapy as russian roulette.

Best of luck.

[runlola72]

Thanks for the comments. I guess that was a long intro...sorry. Anyway, I definitely don't think he is doing anything to remotely encourage these feelings. He has excellent boundaries. I am just afraid of getting too attached myself, and scaring him into referring me out to someone else. That would be awful. I also feel a little creepy that I have these father-hunger feelings toward him but simultaneously wonder what kissing him would be like. I wonder if those two sorts of feelings often get mixed up for people, or if I am a little freaky like that. This is certainly not the first time that has happened, and it tends to make me feel like a bad person. He's very smart and professional and I'd like to not "ghost" him like I have other therapists. But I need to be able to shed this attached feeling if I am to continue. There is no way I can bring up the attraction thing to him. I'd die. His office is in his house, and his wife is there (she constantly coughs and sneezes throughout my sessions lol, and this oddly makes me feel very safe as I know there is no possibility of anything untoward happening). Anyway, the idea of having that conversation knowing that she is there gives me the willies, and I bet would make him uncomfy too. I really just want the feeling to go away. I feel like the more I focus on it, the worse it gets...ugh

[BudFox]

I dunno, even if his boundaries are good, isn't the very structure of therapy such that attachment is inevitable not to mention all sorts of other intense feelings and impulses? And how can you possibly avoid this or switch it off, since it;s human nature? And aren't such feelings the ones that reveal the most about us and need to be examined rather than suppressed?

Just asking questions, I don't know anything. All these stories of transference, attachment, longing… not sure it is a good idea at all, and if the client is to go through with it, where is the discussion of exactly how it will play out and how it will help?

[MobiusPsyche]

You could ask him why he would refer people out. You could say you were having trouble trusting that he won't do that if you open up to him and he doesn't like what he sees. It helped me, for my therapist to explain the situations in which she would refer out.

Sent from my mobile device using Tapatalk.

[runlola72]

Maybe you're right, I don't know. It does feel like the important stuff *IS* the very fact that I am projecting all this stuff onto him. And I want to be able to get knee-deep into that. But without offending him or scaring him, or freaking myself out. It's terrifying, frankly. The human psyche can be a dark place.

He has 40 years of experience, though. I tend to think that he has seen it all. I just have a lot of trepidation about how to proceed. And with my history of abandonment, attachment issues etc, the navigation can get a little tricky. It doesn't take a lot to turn me from a bright, thoughtful person to a hopeless, bottomless pit of need who feels completely unlovable. The fact that I have already imagined him to be an amazing father who dotes on his children and uses his paternal superpowers to build strong, resilient daughters (unlike my own dad who basically forgot about me after age 2 when he moved 2000 miles away), means that I obsess over the smallest compliments doled out, and use them for my own self-fortification. If I can get this person to like me and believe in me then maybe I will be ok.
But I agree with you. It is a bit of a dangerous game for certain types of people who happen to have some more intense emotional needs. The potential for heartbreak is staggering.

[runlola72]

Originally Posted by MobiusPsyche

You could ask him why he would refer people out. You could say you were having trouble trusting that he won't do that if you open up to him and he doesn't like what he sees. It helped me, for my therapist to explain the situations in which she would refer out.

Sent from my mobile device using Tapatalk.

That's a good idea. maybe I will do this... thank you

[Petra5ed]

Runola - I know exactly how you feel. I had the same childhood, the same loneliness in my marriage etc, the same abandoned by dad issues. The bottom line is to move your therapy forward will take courage and some luck that hopefully your therapist is on board for the work (he should be).

You should talk about your longing for him, for hugs etc. Perhaps an email to your therapist forewarning him about this would be good. I wont lie and tell you it will be easy, because it won't. You actually need to lean into the heartbreak a little to get away from it more, it was counterintuitive for me.

It took me a long time to divulge my feelings, and I let drop a lot of hints in the process to test my therapist and his reactions. I don't know if you can or if you should cheat that whole deal, I think it's important to build real trust and that will just take time.

Sadly too I think the childhood stuff is difficult to treat, not impossible, just takes longer. In these past years I've read a lot about childhood development. The hurt of childhood trauma gets woven into our psyche and carried around for so long it is kind of entrenched in there, and you will need someone who is willing to do the dirty work of helping you dig yourself back out.

[BudFox]

I can relate. I am insecure and terrified of abandonment, and my sense of self is far too dependent on external validation.

I just do not buy the conventional ideas about transference in therapy being normal or healthy. Partly because for me it did turn into pulverizing heartbreak, but also because the more i read the less it makes sense. Seems the assumption is that because most Ts are opaque, the client will project onto them, and then good things will happen. What things? How? What if it becomes unworkable? Why should a client trust a T with this?

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Petra5ed

I don't know if you can or if you should cheat that whole deal, I think it's important to build real trust and that will just take time.

But how can you have real trust with someone who is so heavily filtered? I'm not sure what people mean when they talk about trust in therapy. Seems it's more like faith than trust. I hesitate to say blind faith, but the client is certainly groping in the dark.

When it comes to therapy I use trust as a verb, not a noun.

Originally Posted by BudFox

I can relate. I am insecure and terrified of abandonment, and my sense of self is far too dependent on external validation.

I just do not buy the conventional ideas about transference in therapy being normal or healthy. Partly because for me it did turn into pulverizing heartbreak, but also because the more i read the less it makes sense. Seems the assumption is that because most Ts are opaque, the client will project onto them, and then good things will happen. What things? How? What if it becomes unworkable? Why should a client trust a T with this?

I agree. I think it's a really bad idea to trust a therapist. I think people need to be really careful.

[Petra5ed]

Originally Posted by BudFox

But how can you have real trust with someone who is so heavily filtered? I'm not sure what people mean when they talk about trust in therapy. Seems it's more like faith than trust. I hesitate to say blind faith, but the client is certainly groping in the dark.

No offense but just because your situation didn't work out doesn't mean all therapy ends in heart break. My therapist is not heavily filtered, the focus is not on him but I still know quite a lot about him. Trust is nothing like blind faith. It was earned over a period of years in my case by telling him things and experiencing his response.

Trusting other people seems necessary for mental health overall. Prior to having someone I felt safe talking to I was much much more depressed.

[runlola72]

Originally Posted by Petra5ed

Sadly too I think the childhood stuff is difficult to treat, not impossible, just takes longer. In these past years I've read a lot about childhood development. The hurt of childhood trauma gets woven into our psyche and carried around for so long it is kind of entrenched in there, and you will need someone who is willing to do the dirty work of helping you dig yourself back out.

Thanks Petra5ed-
I wonder about this childhood trauma stuff too. Like, is there a point? Or should I bury it and move on? I think this may be my last attempt in therapy, and then I will do just that. I have a good feeling about this T, like he is so knowledgable and professional, has 40 years of experience as a psychologist, a researcher, a professor...so he has seen a lot and knows a lot. I have talked to him a bit about boundaries, and he has assured me that he is essentially buckled in for the ride (my words not his, but basic gist the same). I am going to ask him about why he might refer a client out, and let him know that is a fear of mine. I don't think he's likely to do that, however, because of being new to the area and not knowing many people. He could not, for example, give any recs on a good psychiatrist. So I think unless things got super uncomfy for him, he would stick it out with me. And honestly, I am not the type to be outwardly clingy. I am hyperattuned to cues from other people and if I sense he is getting uncomfortable I would back way off.

[runlola72]

Originally Posted by BudFox

But how can you have real trust with someone who is so heavily filtered? I'm not sure what people mean when they talk about trust in therapy. Seems it's more like faith than trust. I hesitate to say blind faith, but the client is certainly groping in the dark.

It does feel a little like blind faith since my T gives so little in the way of himself. I don't have any real idea of what he thinks of me, other than how he has described me: atypical, lonely, depressed. Once he said I was brilliant but I don't know if he meant it. He has told me that I view myself as unlovable, which to me insinuates that he thinks maybe I'm not unlovable? If he knew how much I pick apart everything he says he likely wouldn't speak again! :/
So yeah, when I know so little of what he thinks, it is a bit like groping in the dark. I'm always hoping he likes me, but I never really know. I won't dare ask, either, for fear of some ambiguous answer that would crush me.

[divine1966]

I don't think the whole therapy set up creates obsessions and unhealthy attachments. I don't think attachment is inevitable. Some therapists suck as they force dependence but not everyone. Mine doesn't and neither do many other we are reading on here.

I see that your t doesn't foster attachment but you still feel very attached. I wonder if it is because some things are missing in your life and maybe he can help you

I also think that if people tend to get attached and develop obsessive transference especially of sexual nature, then it might be a good idea to try different gender t. Like if one always falls in love with females t then go see male t etc I know that I had tendency in my life to get obsessive thoughts about males so it was important for me to see female t. One kind of needs to know themselves and what triggers them. I personally would go see female t under the circumstances

Also from what I am reading on here people often develop strong attachments to t when they are missing something outside of therapy like when they are lonely etc I'd like to think that therapy would be helpful to find fulfilling things outside of therapy. Therapists cannot be our lovers or friends or parents, they can't substitute any of it. They might be able to ( if they are good) help clients to find all that outside of therapy room.

I don't know what you should do. But I see two options. Tell him the truth and see if he can help sort it out and find happiness outside of his office. Or quit and see a different t. Then eventually you'll forget about this one and can work on other things in therapy. I am not sure what's best

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[runlola72]

Originally Posted by divine1966

I also think that if people tend to get attached and develop obsessive transference especially of sexual nature, then it might be a good idea to try different gender t. Like if one always falls in love with females t then go see male t etc I know that I had tendency in my life to get obsessive thoughts about males so it was important for me to see female t. One kind of needs to know themselves and what triggers them. I personally would go see female t under the circumstances

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well....I actually went down that road already. This *is* the other gender t. The first time this happened it was with a female T. I ended up telling her and it was very awkward after that...she kept asking if she should refer me out? She eventually raised her rates above what I could afford (didn't take insurance), and I quit. I have had a few T's since, two who I didn't click with at all, and another younger female T who was very nice but felt more like a "friend". I think this is an inevitable thing for me (I am bisexual), which is why I need someone with good boundaries to be my T. I have 100% trust in current T, but I just need to get over feeling attached.

As for me not getting my needs met in real life...absolutely. That is what I need help with. I have no delusions about a relationship with T, or anything remotely like a relationship. I do have a ton of anxiety and some attachment issues which make everything hard. On top of that, I have some social problems in that I don't make friends easily, I'm shy, get easily overwhelmed and overstimulated, etc. As for my 20 year marriage, it has been falling apart on and off for several years. So you are correct, I'm not good at getting my needs met. And I really hope he can help me with changing that. In the meantime, I will try very hard to stop emailing him between sessions, and maybe that will be a good start to securing some boundaries of my own. Thanks for your post!

[Waterbear]

Get over or work through. Everyone has their own way, er are all different. I have a T willing to work with it, for me to lean into it and learn that it is OK to have needs and get these met. For me this is what I have believed for 20 years will be my way through, I just didn't realise it was possible until my world started falling apart again.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Petra5ed

No offense but just because your situation didn't work out doesn't mean all therapy ends in heart break.

I certainly never said all therapy ends in heartbreak. I'm just asking questions. I find it shocking how rarely the transference hypothesis is challenged. It's helpful for me to scrutinize this stuff, and I hope that it helps others who are getting nothing but the standard urgings and pep talks -- it's normal, trust your therapist, tell your therapist about your feelings, you gotta work through it. Seems like this stuff is so widely repeated and so entrenched that clients are practically hypnotized. I would counter that there is very little that is normal about developing overpowering feelings for a paid professional who by definition cannot and will never return said feelings. The assumption that this will somehow be parlayed into a healing experience, when seen objectively, looks pretty sketchy IMO.

[runlola72]

Originally Posted by BudFox

I certainly never said all therapy ends in heartbreak. I'm just asking questions. I find it shocking how rarely the transference hypothesis is challenged. It's helpful for me to scrutinize this stuff, and I hope that it helps others who are getting nothing but the standard urgings and pep talks -- it's normal, trust your therapist, tell your therapist about your feelings, you gotta work through it. Seems like this stuff is so widely repeated and so entrenched that clients are practically hypnotized. I would counter that there is very little that is normal about developing overpowering feelings for a paid professional who by definition cannot and will never return said feelings. The assumption that this will somehow be parlayed into a healing experience, when seen objectively, looks pretty sketchy IMO.

I appreciate you and others questioning. I question it all a bit too. I am really trying to use my head in all this. I would find a conversation about transference (at least general transference or paternal-type transference) very valuable, and in a list of topics I'd like to discuss I mentioned transference, so we'll see if that conversation can actually take place. The erotic transference piece is annoying as all get-out to me, so clichéd and problematic, I want it to go away, I don't think I'll be able to summon the courage to discuss that. So in the above advice, "get over or get through" I guess I'll have to just get over that part on my own. As for the healing experience, yeah, what will that look like, exactly? Will I be more confident? Less needy and more self-reliant? These are questions I should ask, and I guess we all should. I certainly understand your skepticism, and feel some myself. I don't want to be in therapy for 5 years and feel just as broken at the end as I do now.

[Petra5ed]

Originally Posted by runlola72

Thanks Petra5ed-
I wonder about this childhood trauma stuff too. Like, is there a point? Or should I bury it and move on? I think this may be my last attempt in therapy, and then I will do just that. I have a good feeling about this T, like he is so knowledgable and professional, has 40 years of experience as a psychologist, a researcher, a professor...so he has seen a lot and knows a lot. I have talked to him a bit about boundaries, and he has assured me that he is essentially buckled in for the ride (my words not his, but basic gist the same). I am going to ask him about why he might refer a client out, and let him know that is a fear of mine. I don't think he's likely to do that, however, because of being new to the area and not knowing many people. He could not, for example, give any recs on a good psychiatrist. So I think unless things got super uncomfy for him, he would stick it out with me. And honestly, I am not the type to be outwardly clingy. I am hyperattuned to cues from other people and if I sense he is getting uncomfortable I would back way off.

I think there is a point, yes, but therapy may not be the only route and it might not be for everyone. IMHO when you have abuse as a child you become overwhelmed with defense mechanisms and generally stop connecting with others at the same level as a "normal" person would. Being more closed means we go inside and bury stuff which is liable to erupt later when triggered. For example, I used to be triggered into crying by certain things and it has led to public embarrassment a few times. Just imagine a shelter dog opposed to a dog raised in a home from a puppy. The shelter dog is just never quite the same.

Therapy first was very painful, and still is painful, but it has slowly caused me to open up and now I'm opening up with more people finally. And having this connection and just getting stuff off my chest helps me to not ruminate and feel so depressed. We are social animals, and trauma can cause that social part to be badly damaged... therapy cant remove the past, but it can repair you to have healthy relationships and fulfilling connections with others.

[runlola72]

Originally Posted by Petra5ed

I think there is a point, yes, but therapy may not be the only route and it might not be for everyone. IMHO when you have abuse as a child you become overwhelmed with defense mechanisms and generally stop connecting with others at the same level as a "normal" person would. Being more closed means we go inside and bury stuff which is liable to erupt later when triggered. For example, I used to be triggered into crying by certain things and it has led to public embarrassment a few times. Just imagine a shelter dog opposed to a dog raised in a home from a puppy. The shelter dog is just never quite the same.

.

The shelter dog analogy is perfect. We have one at home, and it *HAS* taken a lot of work to get her to trust us, to not cower with sudden movements, etc. Men with white hair used to trigger her anxiety big-time.

I understand the public embarrassment re: crying, by the way. Wish I could go back in time and fix a few, ugh.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by runlola72

As for the healing experience, yeah, what will that look like, exactly? Will I be more confident? Less needy and more self-reliant? These are questions I should ask, and I guess we all should.

I was thinking more about what exactly is the process whereby transference is turned into healing or growth. I'd like to see a therapist flowchart this.

1. Start.
2. Client professes love, longing, infatuation for therapist.
3. Therapist says "oh, that's transference".
4. Client loses their mind.
5. Client leaves therapy ready for a new life filled with joy.
6. End.

I'd like to know what are the steps between 4 and 5. What is the method, etc.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by BudFox

I was thinking more about what exactly is the process whereby transference is turned into healing or growth. I'd like to see a therapist flowchart this.

1. Start.
2. Client professes love, longing, infatuation for therapist.
3. Therapist says "oh, that's transference".
4. Client loses their mind.
5. Client leaves therapy ready for a new life filled with joy.
6. End.

I'd like to know what are the steps between 4 and 5. What is the method, etc.

I think an important step there is for the T to be willing to talk about it and feel comfortable with it. To let the client feel it's a safe space to discuss those feelings and that they won't be terminated because of them. For the T to understand that transference can wax and wane and may take different forms (such as paternal vs. erotic) at different times. And then to help the client figure out what the transference is about, since by the nature of it being transference, it's not all about the T. Was it something missing in their childhood? Their current life? Both? It might not be so simple as "child was neglected, so now they want love from a parent figure." (I know mine is more complicated than that.)

I say this as someone who is dealing with some fairly strong transference for my marriage counselor (sometimes paternal, sometimes erotic) and a bit of maternal transference for my T. It's definitely complicated working on it with my MC (H knows about it), but he's open to working with me on it, both in joint sessions and a bit over e-mail or phone if needed (though we did have two individual sessions when I first disclosed it). There have been a few misunderstandings and one rupture, but we worked through that over the course of a few sessions, and I think the relationship improved as a result. But he's someone who has experienced it before and who seems to feel comfortable dealing with it and letting me express whatever emotions/thoughts I need to. (That being said, I still feel kinda nervous about his reaction when I e-mail about thoughts/feelings I'm having, as I did tonight after a rather intense session today.)

OK, just kinda rambling now, but hope maybe that helps somehow? And I'm certainly not at step 5 yet...