my T pushing so hard

i dont know why but my T is pushing this issue so hard. she is even getting angry at me ans scolding me about this . im not just imagining this because i even checked it out with her and she did say she was angry and was also scolding me . she said that i was acting out around the whole paying her thing and forgetting my check and paying her cash or bringing the check later etc .i think i have done it 4 times . the first time i stopped at the atm and got cash .she was a bit uncomfortable taking cash because she had no receipt.i didnt care . the second time i left the check in the car and ran out of the waiting room to go get it .i was late and she called my cell and i told her what i was doing and when i got to the office i tried to hand it to her saying "take this so i dont forget " she spent the whole session scolding me for that and for wasting session time getting my check and how she has a procedure of getting paid at the end of session etc... then the 3rd time i was angry at the session and it was a hard session and i just forgot to give her her check because i wanted to run out of there .she texted me saying i had not paid her and i made arrangement to leave the check in the mail box bye the door,and later was told it was wrong of me and i was acting out even though i was following directions . and then again i stinking forgot and then stopped at the atm to get cash . anyway she has decided i am acting out something and wants me to deal with it . although i have had other things i had wanted to deal with she has scolded me about them and even said that she felt the pain i was feeling about it was my fault and said some quite hurtful things and then brought our session back to the payment thing and how she feels i am acting out and that we needed to deal with it in therapy .

she seems to think i am testing her to see if she will abandon me if i forget to pay her . and i feel like even if this is true i am not one who wants to spend time dealing with the therapy relationship. if i am worried she is going to abandon me that is my worry and has nothing to do with therapy . i am more then willing to deal with my fear of abandonment in general but not in reference to the therapeutic relationship. i dont want her to worry about me getting to overbearing to her .and i dont want the relationship to be strained . i see how things get between clients and therapists as soon as the therapist feels that the client is attached or depends on them . i dont want that to happen to me so i have never brought up the therapeutic relationship with her . any feelings i may have about it will eventually work them self out as long as i dont have a T or anyone focusing on them and blowing them way out of proportion . she seems to think i need to talk about it and work it out .

she said that she would expect someone who has had such a traumatic history as i have,and had been hurt as deeply as i have ,would have a huge fear of abandonment . and that although it may not be conscious i have a fear that she will abandon me and that we need to deal with that . she thinks this is why i am acting out .i dont see me as acting out at all . she has been bringing this up for the last 3 sessions before the holiday break. it is hard for me and i am resisting dealing with this at all . i dont want her thinking this way at all. it is dangerous. i dont want her thinking i depend on her .i try very hard not to . even though i would want to i know it is dangerous. she had also made it very clear that i can not depend on her except for the 50 min therapy session . im ok with that .and when i am not the feeling does pass if it is not blown out of proportion.or i just sit it out and not act on it . i survive and know i will. as hard as it is nothing cant wait until the next session . i may feel horrible i may cry and want to call her but in the end i live through it .anyway

she also is insisting that i am seeing her as the mother and that angers her . as she has said she is not the mother and doesnt want to seen as her . she said she is not a horrible person who wants to hurt me like the mother does .and of course she gets angry at being seen as such a person . but i cant help it when she is acting just like her and she just doesnt seem to hear me when i say this to her . she just says she is not the mother and gets angry that i am seeing her as this . but she is saying the exact things that the mother would say . when this happens i am right back in those times with the mother . last session i was sobbing because she insisted i was acting out and she was scolding me she was saying things like "now you are going to act like the pathetic crying little girl and i am the bad mommy " umm yes you are acting the bad mommy so i see you that way . or if i feel she is hating me or angry or anything and i ask her about it she will say something like "hear we go again you are making me the bad person ,poor you everyone hates you ". yes you again are acting the bad mommy . or when she says to talk to her and i try and she stops me in mid sentence to tell me how wrong i am or to scold me for what i am saying without even letting me finish . it is a set up just like the mother would do .ask me a question and hen slap me any time i tried to answer because it was not what she wanted but i didnt have any idea what she wanted from me .all this sends me back to sitting in that diding room chair for hours as the mother tortured me by setting me up and saying these things. i even brought it up to her once how i feel and later she threw it back at me in a sarcastic way saying something to the affect "i supose now im the bad mommy and you are the sad pathetic girl sitting in the chair with me saying horrible things " i dont understand these things or why she says them they hurt and trigger me .i dont want to talk to her about them . i dont know what i want from posting this .i know i dont want a bunch of therapist trashing . i know my T has a reason for doing thins. i dont know if this is her way of getting me to get angry and deal with the things i need to deal with .or to talk or to point out how it is ok to be angry with her ,or to depend on her ,to see that she isnt going to abandon me and to get me to talk about it .i just dont know .i guess i just need to get a lot of this off my chest

the thing is i am not disagreeing with her,i am seeing her as the mother .but i believe she is causing this and she says that it is coming from me .but i cant sem to talk to her any mor about what is going on in my head she doesnt want to hear it at all . she just wants to talk about this issue weather i want to or not .

hi granite! it is good to hear from you.

i honestly and truly think you've run the course with this T. you have come a LONG way with her, and i am so proud of that! But you two seem to be entwined in this struggle, and i think she is stuck on how to help you and is only making things worse.

i really really really think you should try another T. Even if it is on an off week from seeing your regular T. Really research a trauma focused T, and maybe has knowledge in non-verbal (or less verbal) therapy. EMDR, Somatic Experience....because I think that can help you a lot. Either way, a fresh perspective probably will show you that the way your T does things is not the only way to do things.

My last T was kind and I know she tried to help me, but she was stuck in a specific way to try and help me, and I was stuck in the only way I knew how to be and eventually I got the courage to quit. It was YEARS past when I should have, but I kept thinking it was just me and my stupid-ness.

My current T is very different. Part of it is I connected to her much easier than my previous T, and another part is she is much more open and chill and not afraid to ask difficult questions, unlike my last T. The best thing, though? She and I have been talking about how she has been going about things hasn't helped allieve my depression at all for awhile now. So she is going out of her comfort zone to try and help me. It scares me, but also I am a little relieved that she is willing to change tactics to try and get out of my abyss.

This sounds really painful to go through. I don't think I would want to be called pathetic by my therapist. Have you told her how hurtful this is to you? Maybe she is doing a "thing" but it sounds like her approach is not helpful to you. It's actively hurtful and she needs to try a different approach.

i have gotten to the point that i have been able to see when she is mocking me and am now able to in the moment tell her to stop mocking me .but i shut down right after and dont see her reaction at all . i dont even remember how she responds but i feel good that i am able to in the moment tell her to stop and to let her know that i know she is doing this . next time if i remember i will tell her to stop and then try to ask her why she is doing it . i think one time i did ask and she said something like she needed to stop me from going in the direction i was going and i needed to snap out of it . i even remember her telling me at times that i need to snap out of it .

Does she stop mocking you (can you tell) when you finally tell her to stop or does she always come back with the "now you see me as the mother and you the little girl"?

It does sound like she might still be helping you; as painful as her approach seems to be. It sounds extremely painful and I am not sure it does not slow down your progress. However, you have made progress with this T, you believe in her methods, and you still see progress happening. Perhaps a second T that is more just for support and not trauma work would be helpful, someplace where you can vent these thoughts and feelings so that you don't get caught up so much in the dynamic with your T. Just a thought.

I am sorry that your process is so hard. I wish there was an easier way for you. I know I would not be strong enough to stay with a T that worked with this method. I hope you feel good that you continue on your process even in the face of this amount of pain and confusion.

Your post makes my heart go out to you, because this sounds really difficult -- not just sad or angering but actually frightening, by the sounds of it.

I was thinking about what I might want to say as I was reading your post, and then I got toward the end, where you say that what you do not want in reply is trashing of your therapist. From that, it seems you may have anticipated that some of us would have been critical of your T. I wonder if this means you can also see room for criticism?

I know you say you don't want us to criticize your T, but geez. Why do you subject yourself to this abuse? Haven't you been through enough? You don't deserve to hurt anymore!

(((Granite))) you are just the sweetest funniest thing your writing is so clear on this incredibly complicated subject. Describing the acting out around the payment four weeks in a row is pure gold. I wish i could write like you. You say what you mean and you mean what you say.

Hi granite, I am sorry things have been so hard with your t.
I hate to say it but your t sounds like my t.
My t mocks me by saying I am whinging and whining and seeing her as the bad mother- that I am projecting all of my **** onto her. Sometimes maybe I did but it was never intentional.
There was a re-enactment going on between my t and I and it sounds like you and your t are going through something similar, does this fit for you?
It was something of a traumatic re-enactment. I would act like a hurt little child, hopeless and helpless and my t would take that bait and turn into my angry mother, scolding me and belittling me.
I wonder does your t have any idea of her counter transference reactions in sessions?
My t and I explored what happening for her, she got angry, felt ignored by me when I would shut down and she would react to it. It was helpful even though very painful to see that by working through this certain ways of acting and being cause certain reactions in other people.
Of course therapists should have the awareness to know when this is happening but a lot of the time these traumatic transference reenactments are so powerful and evocative that you don’t know your are caught up in them until you are already in the eye of the hurricane. I knew a lot about my ya personal life which was good and wasn’t good but I knew that she also has an extremely traumatic past and sometimes acted out of it defensively at my expense. Perhaps your t is acting out of her own wounds rather than staying present with you and exploring what is happening for you when you forget to pay in a kind and gentle way rather than scolding and blaming.
The mocking is an intervention my t uses and it’s a Gestalt intervention where the therapist acts like the client and some therapists really exaggerate it and it can be hurtful and mean. It doesn’t work for me and it sounds like it’s not working for you with your t.
I think there could be a lot of healing work done here between you and t but she will have to be open and honest and own her part in it and not just use you as a scapegoat.

That's not pushing. Thsts abuse. But I think you know that possibly.

I see transference and countertransference going on here. This definitely seems like a reenactment. Remember, this is not just things coming from you, it is both of you. I wonder if your T has their own T, and/or supervision, because that is important for a T to be able to handle intense countertransference reactions. The thing is, such a situation is a good thing, because the underlying problem is being brought into the room, and you both have a chance to work it out. T has to be able to handle her countertransference for it to work though. You have a chance to do something different, instead if repeating what you did when you were young.

this is what my therapist keeps saying "this is a chance to have a different outcome if you give it a chance" "but you wont even give me a chance " you wont even talk to me about it to see that i am not the person you see me as, to see it can have a different outcome" "instead you sit there staring at my rug shut up in your own world acting like the abused child when that is not whats happening now but you wont even give a different outcome a chance" the thing is i cant respond to her if i do she just scold me for that because i dont say what she wants me to . it is better in the long run to keep my head down and mouth shut and let her do what she wants to do and soon it would be over .

Being pushy and mocking you is not only unprofessional; it is abuse; time to find a good t.xo

granite, this is such painful stuff. You have written many times about not wanting to make any of your therapy about the relationship and have it end badly like some of the reports here on pc. The thing is, everyone's experience is different and not all therapy relationships end badly if the client expresses feelings about the therapist that feel vulnerable to have. Those feelings likely exist anyway, so the more you say no, the more they take the whole dynamic on a downward spiral. Pushing away and denying feelings can have the opposite effect you want--protection from harm.

It's just something to consider. I can't speak to what all is going on in your sessions, except to say it sounds painful to the point of being counterproductive. That doesn't make the therapy or therapist bad, but the dynamic does seem like it needs to shift.

I talk with my T fairly extensively about my feelings towards her to the point that telling her "I love you" is part of a closing for me. It did take me a long time to get to the point where a large portion of my therapy is about my relationship with my T. Yes, I bring up various other things that are going on in my life and we talk about a wide range of things. In terms of our relationship, being able to say .. right now I feel like this part of me and why - what did she say or do that brought that feeling in. I do allow myself many actions that is inline with that part.

Another way this will play out for me is.... She is going on a vacation/conference soon and I admitted that I am probably going to have to beg her to not go. That I need to allow that part of me to voice its desires/wants because when I was young I was not allowed to, was unable to, or was not heard. Based on family stories, that plead was not responded to in a way that reassured me that I'd be ok while mommy was gone. With her last vacation, I realized I needed to give this voice a chance to be heard but could only type it. This time, I think I need to verbalize it, and let it exist with the emotional level where that happened for me.

It does sound like you need to find a way to have that "stepped" back conversation of... ok let's talk about my therapy without it being part of the therapy. These are useful if you can manage them. I use a lot of experiential activities as part of my therapy. With my therapy, and I've heard others talk about it, there is a need to have those conversations where step out of the therapy to talk about the therapy as its own entity.

When you talk about your T wanting to talk about your relationship is it that she wants you to disclose that you are attached to her or that she wants to be able to talk about therapy as a separate thing?? what does that mean to her?

Another thing that came to mind is .. is there something you could physically do to help remind your physical body that you are not with the mother during these occurrences? I have found having fidget items with me, can help me keep a part of my brain active on another action, allowing myself to better regulate my physical responses to emotional things. I typically do not need a fidget item in my daily life; however, when dealing with stressful things - yes I do. I also have a blanket (a baby blanket/quilt) that I will drape over my lap and pet if I need soothing. I am very tactile when it comes to these types of needs. I can also trace lines or patterns as a way to center myself.

Another technique along these lines are throwing a ball back and forth or passing a ball from one hand to the other resulting in right-left brain activation.

Just some thoughts.

You are NOT pathetic. Not.

Granite, I think your T doesn't understand that you aren't deliberately seeing her as the bad mother. You're being triggered by her, whether or not she intends to trigger you or not. That is NOT your fault, simply that something she's doing or not doing, or something about her words or voice tone or whatever is triggering.

I want to address this:
I think your T feels angry because she really doesn't understand. She sees herself as a good person, not the mother, but doesn't understand that she is triggering you.

I would think my T is like my parents too, and T would feel wronged and angry and say "I am not your parents".

It is especially volatile, in my opinion, if you've has abusers who were abusing you WHILE telling you that they're not hurting you. Eg my mother would beat me and say that I'm not hurt but she was being hurt by beating me.

I'm sorry the mother did this regularly to you. Mine did similar.

ruhroh & elio you said what i wanted to say.

Is this what you have always done? It may have worked with the mother, and helped you survive, but you are free now. Is it possible to do something else?

I agree with the statement that your T may not even recognize that her reactions are countertransference reactions. Her anger reactions indicate that she has resistance in seeing this. I also agree that until your T can see the countertransference and deal with it properly, the experience for you does equate to abusive. Thirdly, I agree with the suggestion of having a conversation about the therapy relationship without it being therapy, because your T needs to be able to see the countertransference reaction, deal with their own feelings appropriately to stop harming you, and help you work though this reenactment.

With trauma, before repair can take place (psychoeducation or "giving it a chance to have a different outcome" as your t puts it) there has to be a relational connection one-to-one in an emotionally neutral space. Before that emotionally neutral connection can be present in the room there has to be two regulated selves. That means neither of you can be emotionally triggered. It is neurologically impossible to learn a different outcome in a state of trauma arousal. Regulation must come first. then connection. And only then will she be able to show you what she wants you to see.
In that triggered state, through no fault of anything but human physiology, she is asking you to do the impossible.
This isn't a criticism of your T. She truly wants to help you. She is doing the best that she can, trying as hard as she can try. She just doesn't know what she doesn't know.

Hey, my therapist wants me to do EMDR...do you have any experience with it? I am bipolar and have had DBT, CBT, and many years of traditional talk therapy and am at a very stuck place right now. But I'm scared of revisiting the trauma that seems to be a big part of EMDR. Any input would be appreciated.

EMDR didn't really work for me because I didn't have any specific traumas to focus on. I do think it works marveously for people who do.

Granite,

I've read your posts for quite a long time, and I have a couple of thoughts which may or may not resonate with you.

First of all, I agree that it sounds like your t is having some kind of countertransference reaction. I say this because I don't recall her ever being angry with you like this in the past (although you often thought she was angry). This time, though, it does seem like she is having a strong emotional reaction to what she perceives as you acting out.

My guess is that your t has hurt feelings because she probably thinks she has tried hard to earn your trust and connection, yet you continue to witness her speech and actions as being similar to the hurtful actions of your mom. However, she is the t. She is responsible for keeping her own emotions in check. If she can't manage her own feelings of hurt or anger, she needs to get some consultation from another professional t.

From reading about her in the past, she sounds to me like somebody who truly cares about you and thought that the way your mom treated you was horrendous! This could explain why she has allowed herself to get upset with the continued comparisons between her and your mom. Still, as a t, she should know that this kind of unintentional reinactment happens pretty often in therapy. She should also know that it is almost always a 2-way street.

If a therapist and patient have become embroiled and locked into a repetitive situation that feels too similar to your original traumas with your mom, then BOTH parties need to be able to step back, gain control of their emotions, and then explore together how things went awry. Both the t and the patient need to be willing and able to share how the situation made them feel, why they acted in the way that they did, and what they were hoping to gain by acting that way. Your t should not interrupt you when it is your turn to share your own feelings and perceptions.

If your t claims that you alone are acting out, and that her speech and actions have not, in any way, triggered a reinactment for you, she isn't taking reponsibility for her part in this painful situation. Even if you were acting out in some way, that still does not give a justification for her to blow her emotional cool.

The fact that she has let this situation affect her emotions to this degree is the reason why I think she is experiencing countertransference. Perhaps she has allowed herself to become attached to you such that it hurts her feelings to be compared to your mom, and she is not holding to the standard of objectivity, making sure that her own feelings don't intrude into your therapy process.

The other mistake she seems to be making is to try to force you to come to some sort of understanding or realization that she is not like your mom. Trying to force somebody to admit something doesn't work well. Even if she feels frustrated because she wants badly for you to see that she is different and trustworthy, you have to come to that conclusion over time. It can't be forced. Force will likely backfire and make you feel less trusting and secure with her.

One thing I notice from your post is that you seem to be terribly afraid to talk about the therapy relationship, particularly in terms of attachment. Is it possible that you feel more afraid to see your t as a caring, trustworthy person than to see her like your mom? Is the fear of believing that she does care, and then getting attached to her, actually feel more dangerous? If this is true for you at all, it is something that you and your t must talk about. Otherwise, your fear will prevent you from being able to see your t as anything else besides your mom.