[Rapunzel]

Three years into therapy, we were working on the big question - what is keeping me from progressing in therapy? I have suggested that I'm not a fast learner, but T doesn't buy it because I learn in other areas of my life. She said there is nothing wrong with me, and I am not that impaired. But if I'm not getting better, there has to be a reason for that. (I have a thread in Personality where I've been trying to figure out what progress I have actually made, and I still think there is progress, but probably not nearly enough).

What it comes down to is that I am impaired where it comes to interpersonal relationships. I don't manage them well IRL, and depend heavily on my online relationships here, where I have a lot of control, and where I don't feel as threatened because distance puts limits on intimacy. IRL I keep pushing people away or finding other ways to distance myself. This is where I'm not really making progress.

Since my T is primarily psychodynamic, therapy is supposed to find unmet developmental needs and fill them through the therapeutic relationship. That's what I have been wanting this whole time, but I keep pushing her away too. I have wanted to work through Erikson's stages and see where I have pieces missing. I always thought that I had managed the first stage, trust vs. mistrust, but failed all the others. But I'm really having trouble with trust. It's not limited to therapy, but that's where recovery is supposed to start. Therapy is supposed to be a safe relationship where trust can be built and strengthened. Okay, so I have to learn to trust T, right? I have thought that I did trust her, but now I'm not sure at all. I told her that most of the time I don't even think that she likes me. But she says she wouldn't have stuck with it for this long if she didn't. The reason it hurts her and she gets frustrated and angry about my lack of progress is because she does care about me. But I wonder if she's even going to remember me at all in a few years. I feel like I am so insignificant. I will never belong anywhere, and I will never have the family that I needed in childhood. How can someone who isn't going to be a permanent part of my life fill those needs? How can I trust her if she's not going to be there long-term, and when I don't even think she likes me, and when I have felt hurt and have been so miserable so many times?

I think we are finally on the same page, and she's promising what I always wanted from her, and I could never feel it before. I don't want to reject it now, but I am so scared. I don't want to mess up anymore. I want to get it right, and I want her approval, but trying to get it right has just gotten me in trouble before. I don't want to be in trouble anymore.

Rap

[SeptemberMorn]

{{{{{{{{{{{{Wendy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Has she posed this question to you... What to you get out of it? What is the pay-off?

Those were some really tough questions for me to answer when I was asked them.

> The reason it hurts her and she gets frustrated and angry about my lack of progress is because she does care about me.

Sounds like... Your therapist judges you 'you haven't made any progress' and then she blames you for feeling frustrated and angry.

Instead of just... Accepting you.

> I feel like I am so insignificant. I will never belong anywhere, and I will never have the family that I needed in childhood.

And her failure to accept you makes things worse. Because if she won't accept you and delight in your strengths just as you are then what hope is there that anybody else will?

> How can someone who isn't going to be a permanent part of my life fill those needs?

By accepting you.

> I don't want to mess up anymore. I want to get it right, and I want her approval, but trying to get it right has just gotten me in trouble before. I don't want to be in trouble anymore.

I've thought for a while now... That it doesn't sound like your therapist is very accepting of you. Of course, you aren't very accepting of yourself, but part of her job is to show you how to accept yourself. But that isn't going to happen if she doesn't know how to accept you either. I figure that you were probably drawn to her because you feel like you need a 'good talking to' and your therapist thought that giving you a 'good talking to' would help you.

But really... It is just an old old cycle of people not accepting you and demanding that you change and threatening to withdraw their love from you if you don't change. Familiar ground for you... But the answer isn't your trusting and accepting that that third part won't happen. The answer is your learning that people can accept you right now just as you are. And that... You can learn how to do that too.

its incredible, but you sound so much like me. I have trouble trusting after all these years. I worry that it will increasingly frustrate my T too. I try not to think about it or it will make me crazy. I'm in the same situation. I think im honestly really scared to trust my T because im afraid to get close to her and let her in and that she will leave or hurt me. In fact it seems sorta certain. I'm not sure if you feel the same about your T.

[Rapunzel]

Yup, at least variations of that. It's a no-win situation. I want people to replace my family and give me the love that I always wanted, and then if they try, I reject them for not being my real family. I still want approval from my real family, but to get their approval I have to be needy and incompetent, but that drives everyone else away, and my real family isn't even very much a part of my life anymore. Does that even answer the question? Whatever I'm doing really is not working. I guess it keeps me from risking too much because I never really let anyone get that close, then I can't get hurt as badly when they reject me, or I move away, or whatever happens that ends the relationship. But I will never win that way because I never get the closeness that I need and want, because I push people away.

[Rapunzel]

I remember her telling me that I could accept myself as I am, and still be aware of the need to change. I rejected that pretty fast. I do feel like she is hard on me, but sometimes I think I'm harsher with myself. People have told me I'm too hard on myself, but she says I'm not anywhere near hard enough on myself. She probably means I need to push myself harder to change. I feel judged a lot. I'm not sure if it's really coming from her. She doesn't like my choices and gets mad and frustrated, and I take that as rejection and go into despair and beat myself up with it.

[Rapunzel]

Yes, I am very much afraid that she will leave and/or hurt me. And my fear and my attempts to avoid just that tend to make that more likely to happen.

Yeah. I think... That continuing to see her is basically doing the same old... Looking for a different ending... But basically doing the same old.

I would say: Enough!

You deserve better.

I'm not saying she isn't a good therapist. But I am saying that you guys don't have the best fit.

> I remember her telling me that I could accept myself as I am, and still be aware of the need to change.

That isn't acceptance. Acceptance with strings attached isn't acceptance.

[Kiya]

hmmmm - sounds complicated. are there things that work well with her where you can actively keep that relationship and do those things, and then (with her knowing) you can work with someone else on the relational stuff? Like a back up T for her and you? I read that in a DID book (and they said BPD is similiar in a lot of ways) and it looked like a viable option (to me).
Kiya
Hope this works out!

[Rapunzel]

I don't fit with anybody though. I always push people away and reject them and feel lost and rejected. I need to work out this relationship with her. I might never find anyone else who is willing to try, for one thing. Also, it feels like if I fail at this it would crush me.

I have other relationships, such as here, and at least one friend I can talk to openly IRL (which is pretty big progress for me), and also the Personal Growth Group which is part of my practicum training. All of that should help, as long as I can remember that none of them can replace my family.

> I don't fit with anybody though.

I understand that it might feel that way. To tell you the honest truth... Therapists who are good at acceptance are hard to find. I think it is because one can't really be properly accepting of others if one isn't properly accepting of oneself. And... There simply aren't many people in the world who are properly accepting of themself.

This stuff is from Linehan (paraphrased)... Clients sometimes present with such distress that we really want to do everything we can to alleviate their distress. Sometimes they tell us that they want to change certain things in their life and so we do everything we can to get them to change those things in their life. But sometimes it seems like the more we try and allieviate their distress and the more we try and get them to change the worse their distress becomes and the more they feel stuck in changing.

The answer?

To accept them. Not to accept them with 'buts' because that isn't acceptance. Not to accept them because we think that acceptance is going to facilitate change because that isn't acceptance. Just to take them as they are and accept them.

Sometimes... One needs to feel distress. Sometimes that is something that people need to do. To feel it. To see that it comes and goes in waves. To learn... That ones therapist can cope with it without being afraid of it or becoming distressed themself. And thereby to learn that one can cope with it. To learn that one is allowed to feel it and that one can feel it and that feeling it can be healing.

Sometimes... One needs to keep on doing things that one might (partially) like to change. Sometimes that can be about there being something in what one is doing that is really important to one. That is what the resistence is about. Part of you telling you 'hey I'm simply not ready to do this yet!' And that is okay. I know I have trouble becoming emotionally close to people who aren't able to accept me. That being said, the more I learn to accept myself the more resilient I am in myself such that I can let people in a little and if I feel judged / condemned by them then it doesn't hurt me so much. Maybe you need a bit more emotional distance than most people. People are different and it might just be that you are actually quite happy with being a little more distant than most. Maybe your desire to change isn't so much that you desire to feel closer. Maybe your desire to change is more that other people arne't able to accept your desire for a little distance.

I'm wondering who told you that you always push people away and reject them. Did your therapist tell you that? Did you read that somewhere and think that that described your behaviour adequately? Did you come to that on your own? I'm wondering... Why do you push people away? Do you feel scared all of a sudden? Getting past that fear isn't going to be about giving yourself a 'good talking to'. Ignoring the fear and trying to push past it isn't likely to be something that ANYBODY is able to do. If your therapist can't accept your fear and let you feel it with her... Then how are you going to learn to deal with it?

Is it that your therapist has told you that if you leave the therapy relationship with her that you won't have a chance of succeeding in therapy (in life) without her?

I guess I'm just thinking... That there is a bad fit. That is how come Linehan says that certain people can be quite hard for most therapists to see... Most therapists... Aren't good at acceptance. But without that... How are we supposed to learn?

[ECHOES]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
That's what I have been wanting this whole time, but I keep pushing her away too. I have wanted to work through Erikson's stages and see where I have pieces missing. I always thought that I had managed the first stage, trust vs. mistrust, but failed all the others. But I'm really having trouble with trust.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Have you told her you'd like to work through Erikson's stages? I think it's a great idea.

I think trust is so hard and you can feel like you have it, then all of a sudden it feels like it's been lost. I think it takes a lot of time and work. Maybe this is where you are and where you need to be.

Does she have suggestions for how you can more easily accept what she has to offer? Do you have ideas about how you could permit yourself to take in more of what she has to offer?

I'm sorry you're going through a frustrating time.

[Perna]

Rapunzel, think how old you are and how many years you have not been practicing/learning good interpersonal relationships. That is not going to change much in three years therapy, especially if you have not been working outside of therapy, using anything you've learned here or in therapy?

I "weave" back and forth between what I learn in therapy and online groups like this and what I practice/learn from work and life in the real world. Keeping to the present and analyzing present feelings and problems in light of past feelings and situations helps me the most.

Because therapy is a process, too, it is harder to "see" what is going on until further down the road, when we're not in it so much. I could look back after 5-6 years of therapy and see patterns from years 2-3 that I hadn't seen at that time. I finished therapy after 9 years and can look and see a "whole" pattern of patterns :-) now. It's like my life itself. Now I'm retired and 57 and I can see lots of really neat patterns and how things developed when I was 20 and 30, etc. Could have fooled me when I was those ages!

What do you want? "Better interpersonal relationships" is a good goal but a bit vague; better with whom? I think we look at other people and see them when they are talking to friends or throwing parties, etc. and are a bit jealous, think they have so many more friends and better relationships than we do and are better at it than we are, etc. but I'm beginning to realize that isn't necessarily true for the most part. Anyone looking at my life and family and friends I've had through the years, etc. would feel I "should" be happy and well adjusted, etc. and everything would be fine but that's not how I see it. I too feel I am not very good at interpersonal relationships and worry excessively about getting "old" and being alone, etc. I think if we are anxious about certain areas of our lives, think they need improvement, we're not going to focus on how "good" they may be or how truly they compare with others. I've had my good relationships and "moments" :-) and I think everyone gets those and some get more than others but it's not different than other aspects of our lives.

My T once scared/upset me to death asking did I really want to get to know other people? I had been so focused on doing what I thought one was "supposed" to do that I'd never asked myself that question; how much not making friends and being outgoing, joining, etc. was part of my makeup or interests. You know how people interested in music play/practice their instrument, and writers write, etc.? Well, I suspect sociable, "loving" people are sociable and loving a lot more than I am! There's hard "work" involved in listening to other people (like our T's do) and being interested and investing ourselves in them. I'm not sure I always want to work that hard at it. Yes, I can be very friendly and I am extremely helpful and love helping others but that's not the same as being good at making friends and having friends and being part of a group like that. I don't mind being at parties and eating :-) and talking to others for a bit but I don't necessarily like the work of planning such a thing. You aren't going to find me calling even 3-4 people for a small get-together. I think that might have a little to do with why I'd be hard-pressed to find 3-4 people to call :-)

T's and therapy are a different thing. They're adjuncts to the real world. My T originally compared our relationship to her putting food on a table and having to turn away while me, a starving child, would sneak up and take the food when she wasn't looking :-) Not much of a relationship. But I don't steal food much anymore; I eat with others (my manners are just a bit sloppy though still :-) and I even talk to those I eat with, look them in the eye, thank them, etc. LOL

I think it will happen for you but it takes time. How much time something takes us depends on how much we want it and work on it. It took me 9 years of therapy working on it probably 12/7 (not always when at work, sometimes I did concentrate on work and not all of the time I was sleeping/dreaming was related to my issues, etc. :-)

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Rapunzel said:
People have told me I'm too hard on myself, but she says I'm not anywhere near hard enough on myself. She probably means I need to push myself harder to change. I feel judged a lot.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Honestly, if someone told me that, Id feel judged too!!! I don't know about your relationship though, but that seems odd. It seems you have pointed out over and over that you feel like she doesnt think you are working hard enough; yet you feel you are. Have you conveyed that to her? Is this a breaking point for your relationship? Could she be blaming you b/c she doesnt know how to help you move forward? Just questions to think about though.

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Rapunzel said:
I don't fit with anybody though. I always push people away and reject them and feel lost and rejected. I need to work out this relationship with her. I might never find anyone else who is willing to try, for one thing. Also, it feels like if I fail at this it would crush me.
.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">'

You sound so much like me. But I was thinking.. there are 3 seperate issues you are bringing up.

1. Whether your T can help you and support you ?
2. Whether you push your T away?
3. Whether you are puting forth effort?

I understand that you want this to work, but if your T can't help you, you are a gerbel on a spinning wheel. I was in a lot of relationships in the past where I wanted to get the approval and avoid the abandonments of my past and b/c of this I'd take the blame for everything and things would grow more dysfunctional. I think I have been finding more progress when I call people on what I am feeling in the relationship. Example. saying something like I feel that you don't think I'm working hard, and I am. It makes me feel hurt and disappointed. Can we have a productive relationship and move forward if you don't believe that I am working hard?

The second issue is your fear of abandoment. I think that plays out in not wanting to be honest about what I am experiencing in the relationship for me. I'll take the blame. I won't ask for what I need, and definately won't leave to look for someone to give me what I need, but no one would ever give it to me (my bad beliefs). I dunno. I think I'm slowly realizing that I'd rather have a real relationship now and lose one that isn't quite what I want, than to hold on to something substandard.

3 - Is the question of are you pushing yourself. My T says sometimes the interpersonal issues between your T and you are the "work". As you are able to sort out this issue, your fears about abandonment, ideas about whether you can get what you need, and what you would be willing to do to get it, you will DEFINATELY be working hard. Its all how you quantify it. If all your life you believe that few people can give you what you believe, and you are confronting that now, in my idea -- that IS working hard. I think you are doing it now.

Best,

ev. .. feel free to pm. sorry for the long reply. I've just been sorting out the same thing over the past few months.

[Kiya]

=( ((((((((((((((((((((((rap)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

maybe you can recognize what "pushing her away" looks like and make it ok for her to push back toward you at those times...?

Kiya

[DocClyde]

(((Rap)))

I agree with Alexandra...

Also, you probably are right (sadly) about her not remembering you (at least like she does now) a decade or so down the road...but acceptance from her is not the key, acceptance of yourself is.

I believe that you are doing better, just even for things such as this post, you are questioning, wondering--not just taking it as face value.

I mean, to me, acceptance is great, but it is not always enough. I think you are doing well because, look at you, you are asking questions, willing to find out where you think you have gone wrong, and you are trying to find ways to change them.

Believe it or not, I am very psychodynamic myself...I have always thought and felt that feelings deep down from when we were children have helped "layer" the feelings we have now...

Its like putting creams and ointments and bandages over a physical wound, if we do not treat them, they usually will heal, but sometimes with a nasty scar...so it is better that you have been putting the cream (posts), ointments (PMs) and bandages (therapy) over all your mental pains...

And sweetie, while I hate to cause you any pain, the therapist will leave sooner or later, that is their job, to help you get better IRL so you can face the RL...not just so you can face them over and over.

You know how I feel about you, you know I love you, so if you want, you can continue to PM me. I think you are doing better than you may realize, mainly because you are looking for her validation, when you should only be looking for your own...

[Perna]

Think of any jobs you've had and your coworkers in them. Do you not remember your coworkers from 10 years ago? I remember mine (fondly :-) and still tell stories about them from the 1970's! Why wouldn't she remember you, you are part of her life! She's not working with a "thing" that will have no effect on her, you're not a chair :-) or piece of clothing she once used. Here life is being lived out in the minutes she spends in therapy with you just like yours is being lived. You're not going to be thinking of her much more/less in 10 years than she will be of you; either one of you could be thinking more/less depending on each's effect on the other. I saw my T a total of 18 years with another 9 inbetween so you could say I lived with her 27 years. But we did our work well so though I think of her quite fondly and remember the work we did together, I don't think of her like or as often as I did during therapy. She "fits" into my life like other people and incidents from my life during that time I was seeing her. I started going to online groups like PC in 1996 which is also when I started seeing her. Same sort of "comparison" when I remember and think about what my life was like in 1996 :-)

[Fuzzybear]

[Mouse_]

{{Repunzel}}

> acceptance is great, but it is not always enough.

not always enough for what?

this whole idea of individualism and self-sufficiency and 'i don't need anyone i have myself' doesn't really match the point that humans are social beings.

why do kids have parents if they can just amuse and entertain and accept themselves?

because they internalise that which is provided by others, thats why.

soothing
acceptance
pride

those kinds of things. how am i going to learn those by way of a good talking to? what on earth would trying to internalise those things even look like? do i screw up my face? do i repeat in the mirror 100 times a day 'i am a worthwhile individual'? deeper... deeper... they are encoded deeper than that. the thing that is needed is experience with others.

i'm thinking... that it might be a little like staying in a substandard / abusive relationship, Rap. good therapists are hard to find. but ones who we don't fit with so well... really can %#@&#! us over...

[(JD)]

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she's promising what I always wanted from her

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I think you have every right to feel unsure about this particular relationship. She has repulsed you many times, so it hasn't been all you.
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Since my T is primarily psychodynamic, therapy is supposed to find unmet developmental needs and fill them through the therapeutic relationship

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

How long have you been in therapy with this person, and she's just now producing?
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
she gets frustrated and angry about my lack of progress is because she does care about me.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Sorry, I'm still not buying it. A good T doesn't take things personally, and certainly not "because they care." The more a T cares, the more they will keep the relationship within it's therapeutic boundaries.

I think the question here is WHAT do you trust T with? Certainly she has not earned your trust in all matters, whether she states that or not, imo. You do trust her to give her opinion, to keep telling you where you're doing wrong, etc.
This is not a safe relationship, imo, the way you describe it. And now I know what you will say, because your T has conditioned you to blame yourself for the lack of safe relationship. Not so.

How many really safe people do you have in your real life? Couldn't that be why you have limited trust and relationships with them? If you don't have the time or energy to really invest in finding out whether someone you meet is trustworthy, it's only natural to distance yourself until that time you do (have time.)

Maybe you are trying to work within the context of a modality that doesn't suit you now? Might be time to change therapies, shift gears and find someone who will see where you are progressing, and encourage you in it.

If you wish to improve your relationships, I think posting here more, encouraging others here more, chatting and opening up more, will help you do that. I'm not saying you need to improve your relationships here, because everyone I know here likes you. But if you wish to utlize PC to learn how to recognize "safe" people IRL, then that would be fine with me.

I agree 100%

[Rapunzel]

(((((((((( Everyone )))))))))))

I have been reading each and every response, even peeking in when I'm at work. Your responses are powerful, and I'm working on processing some really hard feelings. I want to answer each of you, and I have to wait a little while because now I have to be functional for a while and manage work, etc. I feel like crying a lot, and I had to put it aside yesterday, and now I have to pull it together again for today. So the part of me that handles professional stuff has stepped in and won't let me work on what I need to here until I have more time, maybe tonight or later this week. I just want to thank you all for your love and concern and caring and insight.

I will say that part of what has really frustrated me is that T said she was primarily psychodynamic when I asked her when we first started, and that was what I wanted, but then she has used mostly other modalities because she said I had enough insight and didn't need her for that, but needed to correct my screwy thinking, etc., but I would try to do a cognitive task in a cognitive way and miss her point because I didn't connect it to the relationship or something like that. I'm really glad that she seems to be going back to the psychodynamic approach now, and I hope we can stay there. Switching around has been confusing and frustrating. I do feel that where we are now is where I need work the most.


Rap

[Rapunzel]

Okay, I figured it was time to get back to trying to process again, so I'm trying to re-read this thread and see what I still need to reply to, and I am so tired I can't stay awake or do a decent job thinking about anything. I worked six days this week when I'm used to working four. I need some time and I'm not getting it. Or maybe I'm avoiding it. Being tired and sleeping are avoidance strategies for me too. After my last post here where I said I had to put this aside so that I could function, I got a headache that really never has gone away yet. DH went shopping and brought me some gum with caffeine in it (which I use if I get too tired to function, but was avoiding this week - don't want to get too dependent on it). He gave it to me and said it was for me but not for tonight because he doesn't need me to be cranky and high at the same time.

Two weeks in between therapy sessions is too long. I forget what I'm working on. Last week I forgot that I had emailed T, and what she told me to do when she wrote back. I wonder if part of the problem with lack of progress is actually that during the waiting time I keep moving on to something else to do or think about. I don't keep what I was supposed to be working on in mind for the whole two weeks. Sometimes it evolves, and sometimes I push it aside. Then when I finally go to T again I can't remember what I was supposed to be doing and where we were. We're not there anymore, or at least I'm not.

This week I've been reading Masterson's The Search for the real Self. I think that it fits with where I was, because he talks about developmental needs, and the development of the real self, and what it's like to have a normally-developed real self, and what it's like when a false self is running things. There is a list of key capacities of the real self. I'm recognizing my deficits in all ten areas. I would like to work on developing those capacities, but I'm a little afraid that it's too late for me now. I wish that I had had these capacities when I was making the decisions in my early twenties that shaped my life. I wish that I had known that I had options. I went to at least four therapists in that year or two, and I needed help with being able to make decisions for myself and plan my life, but none of them helped me to be able to do that. I hate them for not helping me in the way that I needed help. I didn't know what I needed back then, and didn't know how to make use of therapy. But I knew that something wasn't right.

The list from Masterson (all capacities that I need to develop still):

1. The capacity to experience a wide range of feelings deeply.
2. The capacity to expect appropriate entitlements.
3. The capacity for self-activation and assertion.
4. Acknowledgment of self-esteem.
5. The ability to soothe painful feelings.
6. The ability to make and stick to commitments.
7. Creativity (I have to comment here, that I can be pretty creative, but he means the ability to replace old, familiar patterns of living and problem-solving with new and equally or more successful ones. I don't do this well).
8. Intimacy - the capacity to express the real self fully and honestly in a close relationship with another person with minimal anxiety about abandonment or engulfment.
9. The ability to be alone.
10. Continuity of self (one of my biggest struggles).

All of these things would be good things for me to work on. And I have been, but not focused enough, I guess. I have made small gains in various areas, but it doesn't look like much because I haven't concentrated on any one thing long enough to get it resolved.