Current situation with T

After some back and forth, I think I might benefit from a thread. I am not sure what is happening in my therapy. After he returned from a three week break (and actually before he went) I didn't feel nearly as connected to him as usual. During the break I sent him a message saying happy fathers day, and he didn't respond (But I didn't really expect him to as he was away) but when he got back he was saying he was curious about it and that I "put myself alongside" his kids, which seemed like a massive overreaction to me, as it was just a nice gesture as far as I was concerned. I didn't send him flowers ffs. Last session he said that when he said the alongside thing, he was looking at things from the perspective of a father, not my therapist. And this is a place we have been before, where he is very quick to let the mask slip when anything touches upon his family life in his eyes. We had a massive rupture 2 years ago when he (wrongly) thought I had somehow discovered his wife's name. I thought we were past it, but he still is quick to turn when he imagines I am somehow encroaching on his family life. I know he has strong caring, parental feelings towards me, so I wonder how much of this is a kind of overcompensatory reaction to his feelings. Last session he was saying something about how feelings are fine and they can be expressed but not acted on - I can't remember his exact wording but he seemed to be suggesting that this applies to both of us, it didn't just feel he was talking about me

So for a couple of sessions I've been kind of angry with him for stepping out of the therapist role and basically rejecting me. What CE said on the couch the other day about therapy luring the inner child out and rejecting them all over again feels a little close to home to me right now.

Last night I dreamt that I bought jelly beans and sat on my Ts knee in a cafe eating the jelly beans and he put his arm round my waist like I might if my child sat on my knee. It felt very childlike. There were other Ts in the cafe and they were looking at my T judgementally. This isn't the first dream I've had like this. I had a dream a couple of months ago where my old favourite teacher (in my dream she was a T) was telling me he was too close and overinvolved and I should leave. I was shouting back at her angrily. And about a year ago I dreamt

So I don't know if I feel he is distancing himself too much or if I feel he is too close or what. I'm really confused. He's an excellent T. He's been great for me and anyone who has been following my posts for a long time knows that. But what is hsppening? Why do I feel like we could be stumbling towards the end? I don't want it to end like that.

I'm looking for support and insight, but absolutely no criticism of me or the way I'm viewing things/acting please.

I am so sorry you are going through this. It sounds extremely painful, the yearning and longing for connection- which most of the time he gives but sometimes he questions your reasons or agenda!
Does he do it kindly and with curiosity because to me, it seems like he made an assumption that you were placing yourself beside his children. It’s my intention to judge or criticise but just to be curious.
I have had similar dreams about me t, she does get too close at times.
I suspect your t is keeping an eye on his counter transference and may be distancing. It seems like you have a strong therapeutic relationship, could you ask him about his reactions to you sending him a happy Father’s Day message.
Do you know why you did that and I think an opportunity to hold and process some of the feelings around that were lost.
I believe that everyone in our dream is a part of us- so part of you is getting close to your t or whatever your t represents in you while another part is standing back and judging you for getting too close and intimate, perhaps your inner child feels shamed or exposed, hence the judgemental others looking on.
I don’t know if any of this is helpful or right but please take care whilst processing it all

Thank you weaverbeaver, that's very helpful. He does act kindly, but it's hard to come across as kind when you are questioning somebody's motives.
I did tell him, and I fully accept that the father's day message may have unconsciously been, in part, a test to see if he would still step out of the role of my therapist if I inched on the boundaries. If it was a test, he obviously walked right into it.
I think you're right about the dreams. When I told my T about the teacher dream he said that he thinks that is a part of me talking, but I couldn't access any conscious part of myself who didn't trust him. I guess it must be in there somewhere?
Thanks again

Echos, I would absolutely feel similar if I sent my T a "Happy Mother's Day" message and she responded in the way your T did. You certainly were not putting yourself "alongside" his children, you were simply expressing a heartfelt sentiment. I feel it should have been accepted as such, but T's use these times to dig deep. I saw that comment CE said about drawing the child out and abandoning them again - that hit me like a ton of bricks. It feels exactly like that sometimes. And, in your instance, I can feel that pain along with you. I think you have a wonderful T, a conclusion I have come to through reading your words. I can feel the love you have for him and I think his care for you comes through in your words as well.

But as much as he cares, it does sound like he is drawing a line in the sand, separating you from them. That feels deeply hurtful

I'm not sure why you are feeling like you are coming to an end. Is there something else going on? I think this issue can be talked about - share with him how this has made you feel. I know you've already talked about it, but maybe you need to explore this very thing with him several more times until it is resolved.

That means a lot to me, thank you. I am glad you have been able to recognise the love in the relationship and the value my therapy has had for me. It is validating that you would feel the same and it's so frustrating because most of all I just need him to be okay with my feelings. I don't understand why the line in the sand is right there.

Why do I feel like it's ending? I don't know. Maybe because I am tired of this rupture and because I always said the litmus test is "is this therapeutic?" and I'm not sure that it is right now.

Isn’t the key phrase “right now”? That doesn’t mean permanent.

If I have confidence in anything about therapy, Echos, it’s that you and your therapist always work it out.

Perhaps a short break would help?

That's pretty cool atat, for someone I know to have such cynicism for therapy to have confidence in me and T
I have thought about taking a break. Then I have isn't that odd? I guess it's a part of me scaring myself off the break?

Possibly he is drawing the line in the sand for you both? As you've said, he is quick to turn when you venture near his family. You've also said he may be overcompensating, and maybe you're onto something there. Maybe he is self-correcting, to remind himself that he is the therapist and not the parent, even though he seems to have strong paternal feelings towards you. Vice versa.

If your litmus test is "is this therapeutic", I think it's helpful to realize that this (what you are experiencing with T) is the real meat of some of our therapy. To explore the neediness, the emptiness, the loss, the abandonment, the unmet needs. It sure as hell doesn't feel therapeutic. It hurts like hell. But I think this is therapy. To me it sounds like you've hit up against a wall, where he is unwilling to be flexible. I would feel the same way, Echos. I'm not sure what I would do in your situation either, but I do know that if I've invested as much as you have, I'm sticking with it to see if it can be worked through.

I think that’s a perfectly reasonable and understandable fear. I have it sometimes about No. 3, that either she or I will die —it’ll probably be me—before I work that whole thing out in my head and heart.

I think you just have to figure out whether continuing to discuss it or stepping away for a week or two, whatever the consequences, is better for you right now.

If he is, I feel like it needs to be conscious and explicit. This feels hazy and ambiguous. I do think there is therapeutic value to this rollercoaster, but for me to get that benefit I feel like I need us to be on the same page, but right now we are missing each other. I appreciate the support!

I agree with this, and am sorry and sad for how much to must have hurt it hear this. "Alongside " is therapist jargon , nomenclature for what they do when their interventions bomb, and they can't engage the client. It is the idea of joining with the client exactly where they are. It is a strange double speak or else thoroughly unconscious for your therapist to put you in an odd power position - you are coming alongside his kids. This leads me to questions like: Does he have a kid with a sorrow like a drug issue who is hard to reach or does his family complain to him that he cares more about his work than them?

I don't believe it is all that much about you ( and that would be both a relief and a dereliction of his duty).

I have rehashed my tears so many times about my T saying right to my face, when we were discussing the writer Junot Diaz being the subject of #metoo a few weeks after publishing a heartfelt memoir of being - ( I left that blank bc I can never remember how to do the trigger) as a kid in the New Yorker and therapy saving him, that whatever had already happened, to me and to others, that at least the world would be safe for his daughter ( UnaLuna later made me feel more empathetic to my T by pointing out that actually this is quite wishful and she isn't actually safer by too much wholly bc he is her father) . I was just arrested by the moment; it seemed so completely cruel, and what you describe. Like the T facade crumbling leaving the father. He would happily feed me to wolves or throw me overboard it revealed if his family was involved.

Like life, therapy has so many limits. T's are full of BS if they claim the capacity for unconditional regard( my T mentions he has it on his psychology today page - ummmm NOT). But he is human and I am too, and we F up both of us. I just think it cuts so deeply to us as the vulnerable clients, and the hurt is dimentional and meaningful in a way it is not from client to therapist.

I hope your T is faithful to you in his fashion, and what you are receiving as a message is a bit off in terms of cause /effect. I don't believe you did anything wrong acknowledging Father's Day . The response must come from his feelings about himself as a father. I don't want to tread into fragile territory but the thought crosses my mind he doesn't want you to see him as a father and once I read the trigger dream, it came in my mind that perhaps he would rather your wishes be more like that in his countertransference.

It is messy, it is messy, and it hurts. Does it hurt more than it helps, this therapy stuff? I really don't know yet, but like you I am full of doubt that causes pain and preoccupation- I don't trust my T on some fundamental level and that is either accurate ( he doesn't love me, he loves others) or paranoid stemming from past damage( he is professional and a deep thinker, he cares and never gives up on me). I just don't know about your T or mine, except that it is going to be a long messy, bloody, teary, lovey, communion-y process with a good or bad end.

I spend a lot of time fearing the end is now and it is bad instead of doing mindfulness homework or turning my thoughts to my SO who really IS the better man. My T can't hold a candle to my SO except, except, he has my full attention and I want him to love me and he never will except ever day he promises he does.

Your T I am pretty sure is somewhere on a SUDS scale but just dealing with work/ life balance, and probably he is a traitor to one of them in his heart. How would it be is he would RATHER be in his office treating you than doing family life, so he is quite defensive?

Thanks SE. I can't pretend to know how he is feeling though of course I am drawn towards speculation. Everything you say about your T feeding you to the wolves where his family are concerned get to the very crux of my pain around this.

It is funny bc when they do speculations about us it is "mentalizing" and case formulation, but when we speculate about them, it is the very bad no no no "mind reading". One thing is this crew here at PC is extremely perceptive especially as a group, and I think on a given day can give T's a good race in terms of imagination and thinking.

The most important thing is your pain comes through, and it's so valid. I would also be very confused and hurt by what he said.

This is such a difficult situation, so much of it is beyond your capacity or ability to know (is it his stuff? will he work through it in a way that benefits your therapy?), but I definitely agree that you will both figure it out.


Do you know for sure what kind of response you wanted to the father's day email? Was it for him to be in therapist mode and use it to explore what was going on for you? Or for him to say something that reassured you of your place in his life/heart? He seems to have taken it that you were seeking more of the later. Maybe you wanted both? In that case, there is almost no right way for him to have responded (which leads to another question...is there a part of you that wants to push things to a breaking point?).


Can you be okay with the way he responds to these close calls, and put your focus on all the things that go right in your therapy? (Sort of We walk in the direction we look approach).

I kept thinking fog of war when I read your first post, then I saw you describe it as hazy, so maybe one way out is to pause, get your bearings, find a safe place to hang out (mentally) and let the fog lift. Sorry to be so unhelpful. It's a tough situation.

Sorry you are going through this. Do you think it is possible he is afraid of you thinking of gin as to much a father figure and that he may also habe some of the same transference with you?

A few years ago my family tool me out for mothers day to one of T's favorite restaurant. In therapy we were dealing with some pretty intense things. Mother's day is a day I could go without since the death of my mom. Without really thinking about what day it was I bought T gift card to the restaurant along with a thank you card. I had to go by her home/office that day so I just dropped it off where I knew she would find it.

She emailed me that day to say thank you but was wondering what was behind it since it was mothers day. I explained my reasoning and apologized if it made her uncomfortable and that if she preferred to give it back that was fine. She said no she she just want to be sure and thanked me again.

Thanks SE I think it's generally quite true what you say about therapists' differing attitudes to speculation depending on who's doing the speculating, though my T actually doesn't negatively judge my speculating about him in my experience. Maybe I just judge that myself.
And yes, my experience of this forum is the same as yours, that in terms of intelligent input and insight, it's often as good as talking to a therapist, certainly in terms of what I get out of it and the understanding that a lot of members have about my relationship with my T and my process. Thank you

Your response is very helpful ruh roh. I think my ideal response from him would have been "Thank you for the father's day email, it was a nice gesture" then if he had wanted to explore the therapeutic meaning I probably would have been more willing to be open because the feelings would have been accepted.

I don't consciously want to push things to a breaking point but who knows? This came at a time when he had left for 3 weeks. The longest he has been away in all the time we have worked together. Perhaps on some level I knew it would trigger his defences and that it would give me reason to distance myself.

The trouble with being okay with it is that this is a core part of what I need from therapy - I need him to accept my feelings towards him. Most of the time he gets that right but that makes it all the more jarring and painful when he doesn't.

Your take on letting the haze lift is very similar to my T's take on it when he said we are in a boat with no paddle and just need to sit and look at the view for a bit. Perhaps I do need to just allow this frustration and sense of urgency to be rather than allowing it to steer me. Thanks

Thank you. I don't know whether he's afraid of it but he certainly has parental countertransference, he has called it that himself.

Interesting that your T chose to address that via email. I probably wouldn't have liked that, but then it would have been out of character for him. But I most definitely do like the fact your T thanked you! I think that's all I wanted. Just for him to feel touched that I thought of him on father's day, not baffled like he seemed to be, as though we had never even discussed my feelings towards him.

Actually now I think of it, he mentioned his paternal countertransference in the letter he gave me when he went away - maybe I felt that gave me permission to acknowledge that dynamic to the relationship on father's day?

I sent flowers to Madame T for Mother's Day on a couple of occasions, and she never once hinted that I was trying to supplant her children.

Echos,

for me those ruptures in connection and communication happen when either T or I or both of us simulaneously jump to conclusions, without making sure that we're on the same page. Sorry you're right in the middle of this mess right now, and yes, it hurts like hell. But, as others have pointed out already, I have full confidence, both in you and your T that you manage to re-establish a connection that's working again and that is meaningful to both of you.

I'm wondering whether you would have been ok with it, had your T just said Thankyou for the message, and added that he was curious about it. (ie what is your (maybe unconscious) intention/motive behind it) And then left it there for both of you to explore the subject together. What I feel happened, is that your T drew his own conclusions (you putting yourself alongside his kids) which also seems a bit judgemental, since the implication is, that you were claiming a 'status' that wasn't yours to claim. And yes, that stings. Especially since he didn't hear you first and didn't ask your view on the matter and your motivation.

Well that's the thing, isn't it? That he left "therapy space" when he gave you his feedback, while you probably sent your message right from the middle of "therapy space". His (implicit) feedback is that you in a way violated his boundaries, and those boundaries seem to be a sore point for him from what you are writing. Especially since you don't strike me as a person who is prone to willingly violate other persons' boundaries (from what you are writing here on PC), on the contrary.

Yeah, I was wondering that. Maybe some sort of "pre-emptive measure"? More to contain his own feelings than to chastise yours?

What really works for current T and me is to take a couple of steps back and to try and gain some meta-perspective of the dynamics in the situation. This involves both of us sharing our perceptions, of ourselves, of the other, of our (maybe premature) conclusions of what is and isn't said, of voice, body posture, facial expression, whatever else... Basically total opposite from the blank slate approach, even though I'm sure, my T still filters what she shares and what she doesn't. Which is uncomfortable and painful in itself, but it helps me tremendously to better understand myself and my reactions. And also it creates a certain level of transparency. And yes, my T is able to admit when she drew the "wrong" conclusions from what I said or did...

From what you are writing you T seems to have admitted that implicitly already. At least, that's how I understood his remark about the father/therapist-perspective. But maybe you need a more explicit admission/excuse from him?

Also: do you know what else it is you need or want from him right now? What could he do to "repair" this chasm that has opened up? What would help you to regain your connection to him?

Also, what came to mind, you wrote that the sessions before your break felt rather distant (for whatever reason). I'm sure he picked up on that as well (he seems to be the type of guy to notice those things...). So another take on his (rather clumsy and un-thoughtful) remark could be that he is picking up on the discrepancy - the last sessions having a rather distant touch, and now you send him a Father's Day message. But again: It would have been much more appropriate to explore this together, and not to rush into some rather judgmental remark about your presupposed intentions.

Hope both of you manage to sort this out.

Best wishes, c_r

Cinnamon - Thank you. You are spot on about all of this. He did admit his part in this and said that his feelings about it weren't helpful and he should have concentrated on my feelings about it. I know he wants to do right by me.

I guess what I want from him is not attainable. I want him not to get like this and to have faith that he will never step out of therapy mode and start protecting his family from the perceived threat of Echos. I don't see how I can have that faith when it's a recurring problem.

He may acknowledge that, as you said, he shouldn't have made assumptions about my motivation, but it doesn't change the fact it will likely happen again and that I won't feel as safe to express my feelings as I ought to because I know it's a risk.

Your thoughts have been really helpful, thanks.

Ugh, Echos, you're stuck even deeper than I realized at first. This is very existential and fundamental stuff. So sorry about that.

Yes, the old dilemma. We want a human therapist (talking to a bot wouldn't be the same, after all) but we want them to be 'perfect' and never leave therapy mode. I guess on the "rational" side you perfectly know yourself that this is not possible. But then, there's the emotional side, the hurts from the past, the deep yearning inside for perfection. And this side sometimes can be so, so hurt.

For me, giving space to those hurts and to those emotions helps - eventually. Takes time, lots of time. Being able to bring what is bothering you into the open, finding a voice and words for those things and being heard. It's about being, not doing something. Just sitting with those feelings. Over and over. Again and again, if it must be.

The thing is: Those things do happen, especially with those we are close to, even in therapy, and you know that. The question is: What will you do about this? Withdrawal, isolation? Avoiding all risks altogether (is that even possible)?

There is a choice in this (I know it sounds cheesy). Maybe a possible starting point for you could be to stick with him as it is right now. Nothing more and nothing less. And then see where this will take you. This doesn't mean pretending you're both in unicorn-land. It means acknowledging the pain and the hurt, and talking about it (over and over), and finding words and expressions and being heard and being allowed to rage. Expressing your hurt and the disappointment (because he is not as perfect as you want him to be...). And yes, it is difficult place to be in, for both sides. For him because he will have to bear the brunt of your emotions. For you because you most likely won't feel 'safe' expressing all those emotions.

But maybe, just maybe, that's a part of 'growing up' therapeutically: The desillusionment, the moment you realize that your T isn't perfect, just as our parents weren't perfect. Which is the main reason we want our Ts to be perfect, because they should make up for all the things where the past failed us...

Thanks CR, and you know, while my T isn't perfect, he's actually really good, and I know that. So yes, the part of me who knows how lucky I am to have an ethical and skilled therapist who cares, is in conflict with the part of me that desperately wants perfection and can't bear his human flaws. And internal conflict is extremely uncomfortable to sit with and tolerate.

Your suggestion for what to do next is similar to my T's and to ruh roh's- to just be where we are in the here-and-now and see what emerges. I know that probably is the best thing we can do. So I am to be in this moment, feel the hurt of it and not try to force us in any particular direction. This is going to require my T not to try to fix things either. He does occasionally get a 'how can I fix this?' head on when we have to sit with uncomfortable feelings. I do too, it's one of those places where we're a bit similar. I guess we just need to discuss it and agree between us that we don't need to fix this, we need to trust that movement will happen if we are open to it.

Echos — I am not understanding the issue, I think.

I don’t see anything at all wrong with having wished him or even straight up telling him (which you didn’t) the wish for him to be a father to you.

I don’t see why that is remotely perceived as a threat by him.

I don’t see how that is putting yourself “alongside” (super weird phrasing) his children.

But, even if that is true, so bloody what?

That is the stuff of therapy.

I don’t get your therapist’s logic in all this, at all.

Thanks awk. No I didn't see the issue either which is why I was surprised by his response.
Honestly I don't think he put a great deal of thought into it. I think it was something that occurred to him and he didn't realise how hurtful sharing it would be.
But I think the deeper meaning of it is the message "keep your distance, you are not my family" which is hurtful, especially because it was an unconscious message, so, I think, it represents a deeper truth in the way he sees me. I guess I just have to figure out how to accept that at some level he sees me as someone who wishes to encroach upon that.