[LonesomeTonight]

So that I can try to avoid taking over In Session Today, the Couch, or Dear T. A place to discuss my T! The good, the bad, the transitional objects (aka, the ugly).

[LonesomeTonight]

I'll start with a repost of my In Session Today:
T Monday. He said he had to grab his coffee and would be right in. I went, sat down, opened my fizzy water, he came in with his coffee mug. He said, "So we each have our respective drinks in order?" I said I did, assumed he did. I said I thought I was either getting a cold or having issues with allergies, but just in case the first, I wouldn't shake his hand at end. He said there was a lot of pollen out. I said yeah, including grass pollen, which is one of my allergies (from testing). T: "Oh, thanks, you just reminded me I had to get gas for my lawnmower." Me: "Glad I could help you with the reminder. So is that $5 off my bill?" T: "Only $5?" Me: "OK, I'll take $10."

Thursday's session came up, and I said I still generally felt OK about what we discussed. He said he was glad and asked if there was anything else I wanted to address from that. I said there were a couple loose ends I kind of wanted to tie up but didn't want to do that right then.

Talked about what I wanted to talk about, I said probably ex-MC stuff, since I'd reacted to it so strongly (lots of tears) last session. He said OK, but also wanted to let me know he hadn't forgotten about the trauma list I'd given him, that we could work on that when I was ready. And he also wanted to work more on stuff with my parents--well, more with my mom--and the influence she has on me. And to possibly do a family tree sort of thing where we trace the roles different people had in my life. Me: "OK, that sounds good, but can we do ex-MC stuff today?" T: "Sure."

I said we'd never discussed the final e-mail I'd received from ex-MC last month because at the time, we'd been dealing with the whole stone thing. T: "Do you have it with you?" I pulled it from my purse and handed it to him. As he read, I stared at the books on his shelf, noting one was "Attachment in Adulthood." I wanted to be like, "Um, have you read that one? Just curious..." but didn't.

He finished reading. I said how it felt like the end of ex-MC's e-mail was basically, "Bye, have a nice life." T said he could understand how I'd interpret it that way. I said it felt like at the end of a breakup, when another person wishes you well. I made some comment about him caring before, and T said, "Do you think he doesn't still care about you?' I said I didn't know. T: "I'm pretty sure he still cares about you, even if he's not seeing you anymore. I mean, he probably doesn't think about you anymore, but." Me: [tears--that comment really upset me, even if it was likely true] "Yeah, you're probably right that he doesn't think about me...He has other people to think about now..."

Talked some about ex-MC's inconsistency with me and how difficult that was, how he'd say we could talk about anything in session (including my transference), then next session say we had to stick to marriage counseling topics. I said that was even if H was OK with it. And that we had discussed transference/other issues of my directly with H there in session. T said how he got the sense that my H was someone who was just often content to sit back and observe. I said yes. He said also that maybe it was easier in a way for H if ex-MC was meeting my needs at the time, like meeting my emotional needs. I said that was an interesting consideration. T said maybe it took some of the pressure off H. I said maybe it did, but then there were also times when H was jealous of ex-MC, which I guess is understandable.

More stuff about inconsistency. T said he wondered if some of what was going on was that ex-MC was dealing with his wife's death during part of it. I said that made sense, plus she was apparently already pretty sick when I first shared the transference with him. I think T was basically saying maybe he was off his game/distracted.

T mentioned ex-MC's possible discomfort with my transference. I said, "Yeah, maybe it would have been different if I was, say, a teen, at least for the paternal stuff." T: "Or maybe a senior citizen. Maybe the fact that you were close to him in age made him less comfortable with it--not that I'm trying to say you're older than you are!" (ex-MC is 12 years older than me). This comment really made me wonder (something I'd already suspected)--is part of why T seems so uncomfortable with my transference partly because I'm close in age to him? (he's 7 years older than me). I could see how either erotic or paternal transference could make him more uncomfortable than if I was much younger or much older. Like I wonder if he was kind of projecting that discomfort onto ex-MC?

At this point, I'd used up the tissues in the box next to me, so I went to get the other one from across the room. I pulled one tissue out, and the last few came with it. I commented on it, and T said, "Uh-oh, guess we can see how much emotion 3 tissues can hold!" I counted and said, "Actually, 4!"

I said I'd had this idea. Did he remember how I said I had this voicemail from ex-MC from a few years ago that was really caring that I listened to sometimes in the past? He said yes. I said I'd checked, it was still on my phone. I hadn't listened to it in over 6 months, maybe closer to a year. He seemed surprised. I said I was thinking maybe I could listen to it in session with him, like to kind of process it?

T: "What would you hope to get out of that?" Me: "I'm not sure, maybe to process some of the feelings around how it felt like he cared so much then, and how that seemed to change?" T: Hm. Me: "Or, I don't know, in some pathetic way, to be like, 'See? He really did care about me!' Not that I think you don't believe that..." T: "Explain to me more why you want to listen to it here." Me: "Because I haven't heard it in a long time and don't really want to listen to it alone? Like I want support with it?" T: "Hm" He seemed to be pushing back so much against it that I sadly dropped the idea. Even though it had been one of my plans for session.

I think we talked about some other ex-MC stuff for a bit. I then asked if he had gotten or was still planning to get consultation about the stone. T: "Friday. My consulting group just happens to meet then--it's about 6 times a year--so I thought I'd bring it up then." Me: "OK, thanks for planning to bring it up." Very curious as to what they say (though also curious as to what modalities the other T's in group use or how experienced they are).

Confirmed Thursday, scheduled for Monday (he said he'd held my usual slot open for me). Went over to pay. Me: "Remember, I not shaking your hand in case I have a cold." T: "I won't be offended." Me: "Don't want to chance getting you sick." T: "I appreciate that."

Then, T: "I want to let you know that your e-mail last week took me about 30 minutes--really, 35--to read and write, so I'm charging you $90." Me: "What? I thought the first 15 minutes were free, then you charged for the next 15?" T: "I thought I'd made my policy clear." Me: "But it was only $45 the other times." T: "We can discuss my e-mail policy more next session." Me: ... I turn to leave. T: "Take care of yourself." Me: You too.

I got in the car and started sobbing, which continued for quite a while in the afternoon and led to a couple e-mail exchanges (which should be free due to their short length--I posted some of them on couch before). I thought at first my reaction was all about the money, feeling he was gouging me, then realized it was probably more about that I felt like I was just a dollar sign to him. Then I realized it's partly related to the fact that we talked about all the ex-MC stuff in session. But as I've thought about it more, I think something from that session--whether the e-mail charge or from earlier in session or both--must tie in to some stuff from my past, like both with ex-MC and childhood, because it felt much more intense than it should have given the situation. Like I felt it in my chest a bit, which I've found tends to be a transference/stuff from my past sign.

[LonesomeTonight]

Trying to figure out exactly what to address with him tomorrow. I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about the money thing, but as I said, I figured out it's not really about the money. Do I talk about how I felt shut down when I wanted to share the voicemail? Do I talk about the other topics I want to talk about but feel might not be OK with him (like a dream I had involving him)? Do I talk more about how I feel like I can't talk about certain topics, and that's an issue for me?

Or do I just figure OK, maybe I'm beating a dead horse here, at least for now, so I should try to focus on the stuff I've found he's good/skilled at, like my family of origin, trauma stuff, etc.?


Or perhaps I say to him exactly what I said here? As in, "I kinda want to talk more about x, y, and z, but worry we'll just talk in circles. So I wonder if we should just move on to this other topic instead, since I think that's an area where you definitely *can* help me?"

[SalingerEsme]

I'm still really interested in the relationship between keeping MC's message as a sort of transitional object, and your T's struggle with transitional objects. It might be a clue to why he didn't want you to play it?

He wants to be a facilitator between you and your outside life, and not have too an intense a capital R relationship like in psychoanalytic analysis or attachment theory.

I do think he is trying to stretch there, toward you, but it isn't innate to the way he conceptualizes his overall practice with clients.

Just a side note, my T is a whole lot like yours, but I don't push him as much - like I just wouldn't dare ask for an object , lol.

He seems to have a genuine interest in and regard for you.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

I'm still really interested in the relationship between keeping MC's message as a sort of transitional object, and your T's struggle with transitional objects. It might be a clue to why he didn't want you to play it?

Yeah, this is one of the topics I wanted to bring up--how I felt shut down about wanting to play that. OK, maybe he didn't see the therapeutic value, but if I did, isn't that what matters? I mean, within reason--if I just wanted to spend the whole session watching a movie, that seems kind of pointless. Well, unless it was a movie that had particular meaning to me and I wanted him to understand it. (Incidentally, it's funny that you mentioned "sex, lies, and videotape" in your other post, as that's one of my favorite movies, and I referenced it once to T, but he hadn't seen it.) Anyway, he had said it was totally fine that I reread some of his past e-mails to me, but maybe a voicemail is a bit different? (I don't have any voicemails from T--he's never left me a message.)

He wants to be a facilitator between you and your outside life, and not have too an intense a capital R relationship like in psychoanalytic analysis or attachment theory.

I do think he is trying to stretch there, toward you, but it isn't innate to the way he conceptualizes his overall practice with clients.

I do feel like he's trying, like you said. I think he's just not comfortable with it. I think part of that is personal discomfort, but maybe he's also afraid he's going to screw it all up since he's not experienced in it (so I guess professional discomfort?)

Just a side note, my T is a whole lot like yours, but I don't push him as much - like I just wouldn't dare ask for an object , lol.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend asking yours for an object!

He seems to have a genuine interest in and regard for you.

I feel that way, too. If I didn't feel that, I'd have stopped going. He seems at times intrigued by me, other times completely baffled by me. But I also feel like he seems to genuinely care, that he wants to help me, that he fears letting me get attached (well, more than I already am!) will hurt me. So he's trying to figure out how to handle things, screwing up some along the way. As he's said, he's feeling this out along with me. So I'm just trying to give him a bit more time.

[DP_2017]

I would say bring up what you feel is most value to you. Personally, I wouldn't keep beating a dead horse as you say, from experience, it seems exhausting and pointless. It's why I no longer will discuss feelings for him, to him. I'm content with him accepting my love feelings so I will leave it be.

If you truly wanna keep going with it though, then go for it, but just try to remember how it makes you feel when he reacts in a disappointing way to you, do you wanna keep putting yourself through it? I think you would get more value for your money in using him for what aspects he is good at. Just my view though. In the end, it's all your call.

[ruh roh]

Could you talk about this pattern of wanting to be cared for/by men in authority where you either end up feeling rejected or, in your attempt to capture that feeling of being cared about, do things to heighten feelings of rejection? Because it sounds a lot like when you've talked about your dad saying something about choosing your mom over you. Maybe this pattern has been an attempt to correct that past hurt, which doesn't actually work so you keep recreating those old feelings instead of putting them in their place.

That might help get your therapy back on track instead of focusing on how your therapist and ex mc and e xtherapist hurt you, because that can just be a neverending loop that doesn't go anywhere.

[unaluna]

I would ask him, what is his plan. Cuz my ts, they didnt have a plan - they were like, come in, we talk, the relationship is my plan. Fine. I could see progress and changes, and i read up on the process, so i was good with that.

But your t doesnt seem to be doing that, correct? You have a few lists of stuff - it seems like he HAS a plan. Now that you know each other a little better - like youve navigated your way out of this huge parking structure - what road are you going to take?

[velcro003]

My plan for when I am not sure what I want to talk about is go in with an open mind. Whatever comes out is obviously the most important thing that i want to deal with at the moment.

[rainbow8]

LT,
I understand your situation though I can't give you specific advice. Again, you sound a lot like me and my pattern. I want to analze everything about my T relationship with T, while she is always trying to steer me away from her and towards my real life relationships.

Last session I played a recording I made about her talking about addiction. I wanted her to hear me cry since I have never cried in 8 years of therapy. You and I are different in that regard. T wasn't interested in hearing me cry particularly.

A few years ago I wanted T to watch my family movies of when I was a baby and child. She did, but asked me what I wanted from that experience. It's like I want to go over and over things that make me feel more connected to her. I don't like when she switches gears and asks about my kids or grandkids in the middle of my trying to discuss my attachment to her. It's like I don't want to let it go, and I feel rejected when she wants me to "get out of that loop."

I know T is right but it's hard to "give it up." I sense that you want to go over and over your relationship with ex- MC in order to keep it alive. You may need to grieve that relationship because you are hurting because of it even though you made a wise decision to stop seeing him.

Maybe I'm wrong, and over simplifying your situation, but it strikes a chord with me so I wanted to tell you. Especially the wanting to ruminate about ex MC. I don't think that's wrong because it's not finished for you yet. I also empathize with your frustration with your T because he doesn't want to "go there." This is hard stuff! Hugs.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

Could you talk about this pattern of wanting to be cared for/by men in authority where you either end up feeling rejected or, in your attempt to capture that feeling of being cared about, do things to heighten feelings of rejection? Because it sounds a lot like when you've talked about your dad saying something about choosing your mom over you. Maybe this pattern has been an attempt to correct that past hurt, which doesn't actually work so you keep recreating those old feelings instead of putting them in their place.

That might help get your therapy back on track instead of focusing on how your therapist and ex mc and e xtherapist hurt you, because that can just be a neverending loop that doesn't go anywhere.

That's a good idea. That's part of what I meant when I was trying to explain to him what dealing with transference could look like--noticing a pattern with him, then relating it to stuff from my past (or possibly current life, like with H). And T may not realize that's what's been going on, so he thinks it's about HIM, when it's really not. It's a pattern. So this could be a way to move forward, thanks.

Something else I thought of: His not wanting to talk about certain topics as well as him seeming to shut down my desire to play the ex-MC VM also brings me back to childhood stuff, since there were certain things I either wasn't supposed to talk about with my parents or that my mom thought I wasn't supposed to talk about with other people. So...in a way, this is replaying that, too.

And in some ways, it makes me just want to tell him all those thoughts (like, all at once), in an "OK, either deal with this or make me leave" way, but I know that's not productive either. And strikes me as a very adolescent/teenage way to deal with it, too...though he does partly focus on teens/young adults, maybe he'd be able to handle me better if he knows this is teenage part of me coming out...

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I would ask him, what is his plan. Cuz my ts, they didnt have a plan - they were like, come in, we talk, the relationship is my plan. Fine. I could see progress and changes, and i read up on the process, so i was good with that.

But your t doesnt seem to be doing that, correct? You have a few lists of stuff - it seems like he HAS a plan. Now that you know each other a little better - like youve navigated your way out of this huge parking structure - what road are you going to take?

Hm, that's a good point. Because ex-T and ex-MC, they didn't really seem to have a plan (certainly not ex-MC!) Well, ex-T kind of did in the beginning, like stuff about exposure therapy for some elements of my OCD, but that all got derailed at some point...maybe when H's friend passed away? (It was pre-marriage counseling, so it wasn't anything related to ex-MC.) And then it was like we were going forward without a plan.

Part of what I like about current T is that he seems to have a vision for what he hopes I could become--and his having that vision makes me feel like he has faith in me that I can get there. He'll say things like, "What I hope for you is..." And talks about working together to get there.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by velcro003

My plan for when I am not sure what I want to talk about is go in with an open mind. Whatever comes out is obviously the most important thing that i want to deal with at the moment.

That's a good point, too. I think some of my best sessions have come when I had no idea what I wanted to talk about, then we hit on something that I hadn't even realized was important, but clearly it was. He also seems more open to leading if I ask him to, so if I'm really stuck, I could just see what he says.

[ruh roh]

I think it's interesting that he didn't want to listen to the voice message. Did he think it would keep you in emotional pain? Something else?

I don't even have to wonder if mine would listen. She'd listen to, look at, read just about anything, probably to see if I am reacting out of my own issues or something else. I love to share those sorts of things because they are validating in a way to say, see? I told you that so and so was harsh.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

I think it's interesting that he didn't want to listen to the voice message. Did he think it would keep you in emotional pain? Something else?

I don't even have to wonder if mine would listen. She'd listen to, look at, read just about anything, probably to see if I am reacting out of my own issues or something else. I love to share those sorts of things because they are validating in a way to say, see? I told you that so and so was harsh.

I have no idea. I would have maybe felt differently if he'd say, "I'm concerned it would hurt you more" or something like that, but the way he presented it, it felt like he didn't see the purpose to doing it at all. Like he thought it was more of a pointless idea than a bad one. I may ask him tomorrow, not sure.

Your second comment made me think about how once I asked if it could be helpful to show him pictures, possibly older ones, but then I also said maybe current ones so he'd have a visual if I was talking about, say, H or my parents. He was like, "Not really." And I was kind of just like "Oh. OK." Since I had shared some pics with ex-T. I think I have shown current T my D once, and I've wanted to share other pics of her, but wasn't sure if that would be weird at all.

That's good that your T is willing to look at/listen to anything you'd share. Like you said, I'm sure it's serving *some* purpose for you, even if she doesn't fully understand what it is. Or even if you don't know why. Sometimes it's like you have to just shake the tree to see what falls out.

[velcro003]

My T literally clapped her hands in delight when I brought in pictures.

[ElectricManatee]

I'm trying to think of all the things I've shown my T. Several photographs, maps, a webcomic, a short YouTube clip of a video game, a video I made for my wedding, and at least one voicemail. I think that's everything?

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Just something I thought of just now:
You say that dealing with transference can be about noticing patterns that relate to things in the past and then understand that topic.

Now, I might be wrong, but since your T is not very trained in these sorts of things, maybe it's hard for him to go 'haha, this is the same as you did with X' and then get somewhere with that? If I go to my T and I talk to him about how much I miss him, or that I'm scared that he might die, he won't just go 'okay, but let's talk about how you missed your parents when you were a kid'. That would just be hitchhiking my session. It should be what you want to talk about, right?

So if you go in and say things about your transference, he probably tries to stick with that topic. He either doesn't see the things in your past that might be similar, or does, but doesn't want to just bring them up randomly. I'm not sure how much you talk about your past vs. about what's happening right now, but it might also be that your T cannot notice patterns because he does not have that information yet. It's hard to notice patterns when you don't know about any of the other things that happened.

So, if this might be true, it might be a good idea to think yourself about why you are reacting the way you do. You don't need a complete theory, but like instances where you felt similar (maybe other than ex-MC, because I think that topic is difficult for him, for whatever reason). And then instead of just saying how you're feeling in regards to your T, also mention where that might stem from and then discuss that past stuff?

I might be completely wrong, it's just an idea.

Oh, also regarding transitional objects/showing things: I've never shown my T any pictures or anything like that, but that's just because I'd rather have him talk to me for an hour than looking at pictures. He tends to get very absorbed in whatever we do. However, I'm 99% sure he'd be okay with it. I think with your T, the issue might be that he doesn't know how to deal with the stone thing properly yet. I can imagine him thinking that if you guys listened to the recording together, and then he said something about transitional objects, it might be hurtful or similar for you, and he can't tell because he doesn't really understand the topic.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I said I'd had this idea. Did he remember how I said I had this voicemail from ex-MC from a few years ago that was really caring that I listened to sometimes in the past? He said yes. I said I'd checked, it was still on my phone. I hadn't listened to it in over 6 months, maybe closer to a year. He seemed surprised. I said I was thinking maybe I could listen to it in session with him, like to kind of process it?

T: "What would you hope to get out of that?" Me: "I'm not sure, maybe to process some of the feelings around how it felt like he cared so much then, and how that seemed to change?" T: Hm. Me: "Or, I don't know, in some pathetic way, to be like, 'See? He really did care about me!' Not that I think you don't believe that..." T: "Explain to me more why you want to listen to it here." Me: "Because I haven't heard it in a long time and don't really want to listen to it alone? Like I want support with it?" T: "Hm" He seemed to be pushing back so much against it that I sadly dropped the idea. Even though it had been one of my plans for session.

I agree there is some resistance there, but I think he owes you an explanation. Could you tell him he doesn't sound keen and ask him why not?

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

I think it's interesting that he didn't want to listen to the voice message. Did he think it would keep you in emotional pain? Something else?.

My theory is he doesn't want to give positive attention to a T as a personal figure in LT's past. Maybe mixed in is whatever feelings he has about how MC conducted the therapy, and how he is determined not to replicate that. His message is consistent : No stone to stay connected to me and no VM to embody or commemorate a connection to MC. It could be it challenged the boundaries between him and MC as two professional to listen to a message not meant for his ears?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

My theory is he doesn't want to give positive attention to a T as a personal figure in LT's past. Maybe mixed in is whatever feelings he has about how MC conducted the therapy, and how he is determined not to replicate that. His message is consistent : No stone to stay connected to me and no VM to embody or commemorate a connection to MC. It could be it challenged the boundaries between him and MC as two professional to listen to a message not meant for his ears?

Hm, that's interesting...mostly responding to your last part, though I think it all has merit. Part of what has complicated all the stuff about ex-MC is that T used to work with him (actually, work *for* him since ex-MC was one of the owners of the practice). Early on in my therapy with him, it seemed he doubted some of my versions of things, giving ex-MC the benefit of the doubt (like "Of course he'd freak out from you sending him an 'I love you so much' e-mail"). Then at some point, he shifted--I think maybe in part from my sharing an e-mail from him where he accepted some of the blame and admitted to being inconsistent. Or it may have just been that he kind of trusted me more as a client after time, or all of the above.

He now seems to feel (or at least in what he expresses to me, but it seems genuine) that ex-MC *did* mishandle things in several ways with me. So it's true that it might be coloring how he sees his colleague (who he still consults with from time to time--not on stuff about me though), which could be uncomfortable for him. Maybe he's worried about the content of the voicemail, that it might be inappropriate or show ex-MC crossed a line? Even though I don't think anything in the voicemail alone does. But I mentioned how caring it sounded, so maybe he's concerned about that?

[toomanycats]

FWIW, I'm 99% sure that C wouldn't want to listen to a voicemail from ex-T (S) either. And I understand why. It would basically be prolonging the torture of losing S - it would be tantamount to cutting myself in front of him. It would also bring the pain of that relationship into my relationship with C. It would do no good. C would be far far more inclined for me to discuss why I want to play the message, because that's where the therapy work is, not in listening to the message itself.

[emeraldheart]

I wonder if maybe he decided not to listen to the voicemail because he’s trying to communicate that he trusts you and your version of events and he doesn’t need to hear it as proof or as justification for how you are feeling?

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by toomanycats

FWIW, I'm 99% sure that C wouldn't want to listen to a voicemail from ex-T (S) either. And I understand why. It would basically be prolonging the torture of losing S - it would be tantamount to cutting myself in front of him. It would also bring the pain of that relationship into my relationship with C. It would do no good. C would be far far more inclined for me to discuss why I want to play the message, because that's where the therapy work is, not in listening to the message itself.

"Prolonging the torture" is one way to look at it. But also "sitting with the feelings" and "working it through". "Processing" in fact.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

...Maybe he's worried about the content of the voicemail, that it might be inappropriate or show ex-MC crossed a line? Even though I don't think anything in the voicemail alone does. But I mentioned how caring it sounded, so maybe he's concerned about that?

You seem to play two roles: 1, the helpless, crying character who cant even listen to a voicemail by herself for fear of the pain. 2, a kind of superior, conniving character who insists on an apology when her feelings are hurt. But they are both like characters in a play - who is the real person? What are your true feelings? I think that is what your t is trying to get at. Like when he asks you why you want to listen to the vm. If you have already predicted a scenario, maybe thats not therapy.