[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Had phone consult with potential T--let's call him "M" (his first initial). Was a little awkward because he was in his car. And I was afraid I was too open at the beginning, saying I was working with another T but thought I needed to change because we've had a lot of conflicts (didn't share T's name, he was fine with that). And that I think I need a different therapeutic approach. It's funny because he started with his fees and asked if they were OK, and I had to struggle not to laugh because they're so much cheaper than T's (like $110 for M, $175 for T, though T is giving me reduced rate of $150)--M has a master's, not PhD, and I think has only really been in the regular therapy field a couple years. Was a teacher for some years before that, then I think just art therapist, now regular therapist, too.

Possible trigger:

at the end, he said he had to ask a couple questions. if I'd ever been suicidal. Mentioned attempt in college. That I'd had some ideation since then. He asked how recently. I was like "uh....well, a couple weeks ago, but it wasn't anything I'd have acted on." He asked if I was homicidal, and I said no, that I'm generally a very peace-loving person.

Was afraid that would scare him off. Apparently he was OK with it all, as we have an intake session on Wednesday.

I hope your session with M on Wednesday goes well. But also maybe ask about his email availability too.

Have you also arranged something else with the other T's you contacted?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Lemoncake

I hope your session with M on Wednesday goes well. But also maybe about his email availability too.

Have you also arranged something else with the other T's you contacted?

Thanks, Lemon. Two of the women got back to me yesterday afternoon. The one wouldn't be able to see me till October. I think both offer free phone consultations. So I might set up with a consultation with the one who's available sooner for, say, Tuesday if possible. Or maybe Monday. I feel less of a rush for the other one. There's a third one I hae yet to hear back from (though, in my experience 3/4 is pretty good, plus I might still hear from the her). Plus there are other promising ones I found online, but I didn't want to contact like 20 of them at once!

I don't really want to schedule more than one new T a week, partly for financial reasons (as I *think* I'll still see T twice next week, not sure). But also because I'm afraid it might be overwhelming. I figure if I consult with the one woman (I forget her initial, K maybe?) by phone next week, I could set something up with her for the next week if I like her. Then if I like the guy after meeting with him, could consider canceling that.

I just kinda want to find someone I feel at least somewhat comfortable with before leaving my T--whether that will be a temporary break or maybe permanent. At the same time, his whole "leave or don't leave" thing recently makes me very reluctant to say anything until I'm sure. Well, unless I go in there Monday and it's another mess...

[Amyjay]

Wait, what - why are you leaving your T?

[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks, Lemon. Two of the women got back to me yesterday afternoon. The one wouldn't be able to see me till October. I think both offer free phone consultations. So I might set up with a consultation with the one who's available sooner for, say, Tuesday if possible. Or maybe Monday. I feel less of a rush for the other one. There's a third one I hae yet to hear back from (though, in my experience 3/4 is pretty good, plus I might still hear from the her). Plus there are other promising ones I found online, but I didn't want to contact like 20 of them at once!

I don't really want to schedule more than one new T a week, partly for financial reasons (as I *think* I'll still see T twice next week, not sure). But also because I'm afraid it might be overwhelming. I figure if I consult with the one woman (I forget her initial, K maybe?) by phone next week, I could set something up with her for the next week if I like her. Then if I like the guy after meeting with him, could consider canceling that.

I just kinda want to find someone I feel at least somewhat comfortable with before leaving my T--whether that will be a temporary break or maybe permanent. At the same time, his whole "leave or don't leave" thing recently makes me very reluctant to say anything until I'm sure. Well, unless I go in there Monday and it's another mess...

It's okay to take your time and set your own pace. You are right not to overwhelm yourself by seeing more than one T a week. Seeing someone new can take a lot of emotional energy.

I remember commenting "welcome to the R" club! Sorry if I'm getting confused. K is also someone new and not the addiction specialist?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Lemoncake

It's okay to take your time and set your own pace. You are right not to overwhelm yourself by seeing more than one T a week. Seeing someone new can take a lot of emotional energy.

I remember commenting "welcome to the R" club! Sorry if I'm getting confused. K is also someone new and not the addiction specialist?

Ah, yeah, sorry that's all confusing! R is backup for T, who I saw a few times while he was away who is also an addiction specialist. Initially, T had said I could maybe see her for a few sessions to work on addiction stuff, but when I mentioned it recently, he got all weird and said he didn't know if she worked that way, that she was doing him a favor being his backup at times. I was like, "But you were the one who suggested that before..." He said I'd need to talk to her.

The K I'm meeting with today is someone I met with once back in February to consult on T. Figured I'd just see her again, as she has a bit of the background. I don't see her as someone I'd want to see longterm though (think she mostly works with kids?) But I'll see how I feel today. The other K (if that's even her initial, will have to look it up!) would be someone entirely new.

I only started using initials recently--current T and ex-MC have the same first initial (D), so even if I used that initial just for T on here, I fear I'd have confused myself!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Amyjay

Wait, what - why are you leaving your T?

I know I haven't been great at updating this thread vs. the couch. I typed up a bunch of notes from Tuesday's session to discuss with consulting T today, so can post some of those here. It's really just, we keep having conflict and I'm just tired of dealing with it. He also just seems more...harsh to me lately. Plus I find myself lashing out at him, and I'm not normally like that. It's like we're triggering something in each other. And it's not helping the therapy. And he keeps taking things personally rather than seeming willing to explore bigger issues that might be going on, like transference/countertransference stuff. I said Tuesday how I suspected many of our conflicts lately had to do with his being away a bunch this summer. He said, "Oh, I'm sure they are." And I was like, "So why don't we explore that more, what's going on there?" I don't think he had an answer.

The biggest thing I'm struggling to get over is his saying he felt "trapped" into responding multiple times when I emailed him a couple weeks ago

Possible trigger:

with thoughts of SH plus some ideation

. That it was being selfish, but he was thinking of liability. And in one of those emails he called me manipulative (not due to what I was feeling, but because I mentioned maybe needing a different T). And he was like, "Leave, or don't leave." Also the lines, "Give you hope? Make you stop hating yourself? How are those things my responsibility?" Which I know is true...but much of it is in how he said it. Really, the "manipulative" thing is particularly affecting me. He wrote all these things knowing how I was feeling. If he didn't want to deal with it at the time, he could have said, "I can't reply right now, but here's the number for a crisis line. I could reply more tomorrow." Instead, it's like he lashed out.

Apparently, he was also going to tell me in the email that he was frustrated with me, but said he decided against it. He later agreed with me when I said maybe he could have saved the "manipulative" thing for session when I was in a more stable frame of mind. He did seem to agree with that. But he still keeps hiding behind "I'm just being honest about how I feel" and "I want you to know what's going on in my head because otherwise you'll wonder."

Sorry, will stop ranting. I guess I just feel done. I think you're one of my T's fans. And I like him for many things. He just seems different to me lately, and I feel we've hit a bit of a wall. So I think a break, whether temporary or permanent, might be best. I am consulting today with another T specifically about him (I met with her once before--she's not his backup T and doesn't know him personally). The T I'm meeting with next week would be more to consider seeing going forward, rather than to talk about this T so much.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

LT from my limited perspective I think you're doing absolutely the right thing by looking for another T. It sounds like you and current T have hit a wall and the only reasonable solution is to have some time out - whether that turns out to be forever or just a short break. I find myself wondering if your T is burnt out and doesn't have anything more to give. That isn't your fault or responsibility though, and if it's the case he should be taking it to his supervisor and/or personal therapy. I agree you may be triggering each other and it can happen if the therapist isn't on the ball enough to realise what's happening (or is perhaps too exhausted to care). Well done for looking elsewhere - it takes so much courage to do that. I hope you find someone helpful.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Lonelyinmyheart

LT from my limited perspective I think you're doing absolutely the right thing by looking for another T. It sounds like you and current T have hit a wall and the only reasonable solution is to have some time out - whether that turns out to be forever or just a short break. I find myself wondering if your T is burnt out and doesn't have anything more to give. That isn't your fault or responsibility though, and if it's the case he should be taking it to his supervisor and/or personal therapy. I agree you may be triggering each other and it can happen if the therapist isn't on the ball enough to realise what's happening (or is perhaps too exhausted to care). Well done for looking elsewhere - it takes so much courage to do that. I hope you find someone helpful.

Thanks for the support. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a supervisor and doesn't do his own therapy...(and from what he told me when I asked, he only did his own therapy to meet the requirements for his PhD.) He meets with a consulting group like 6 times a year, and I know he asked something regarding me a year ago, but it seemed like he was just trying to get his own view on what happened at the time (the whole stone thing--not sure if you know that story) validated. Rather than trying to figure out what was going on with him to react so strongly/negatively to my holding a stone he gave me for comfort.

The T I'm meeting with Wednesday is relatively new to the field (he was a teacher before) and, according to the paperwork I filled out for him, is still under supervision. I know seeing someone new could be risky, but I do like the fact that he's under supervision. Incidentally, my ex-MC and ex-T didn't have supervision either. I know ex-MC had done a lot of his own therapy, but don't know if he was still in therapy at the time he was seeing me. And their practice would have clinical meetings where they could bring up client issues once a week, but I seriously doubt he ever brought me up.

I like the UK model where all T's still require supervision, even if they've been practicing 30 years. Though, I suppose a T could just choose not to share something with their supervisor...

[SlumberKitty]

LT, I think what you are doing by looking around for a consulting T or maybe a new T is very brave. I think I would be too stuck to do that. I hope you find a T that can give you some perspective or a T that you think you can work with for no matter how long. Anyway, I think you are being very brave and I admire you for it. I wish you the best. HUGS Kit

[Lonelyinmyheart]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I like the UK model where all T's still require supervision, even if they've been practicing 30 years. Though, I suppose a T could just choose not to share something with their supervisor...

I do feel thankful to live in the UK for that reason. Supervision isn't foolproof because as you say a therapist could choose not to share certain difficulties they are having with a client. However, a supervisor, from what I understand, is going to ask how things are going with every client so it's more likely that any ongoing issues would be brought up there. I wish your t was consulting someone really but theres nothing you can do.

[InkyBooky]

You are very brave and proactive regarding your own mental health. Good for you! From what I've read here, I think this is a very healthy stepping stone that you are taking in the right direction- that will hopefully lead towards even more healing. Some people may disagree with your decision to seek a different therapist, but you are listening to yourself and trusting your OWN gut (your own inner wisdom)- and that's huge.

Just remember, this change certainly doesn't mean that your work with current T was not helpful or useful for you at the time, but just that you are now ready to move on for a variety of reasons. And (according to him) you can always revisit your work with him at a future date if you so choose. That could also be very helpful and healing to you when you're ready.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Certain times I think your current T tries to do the right things and I don't think he's trying to harm you. But I can very well understand (and it's quite obvious) that his behavior bothers you.

In the short term, maybe sometimes there's disagreements with your T and sometimes those are the most fruitful to talk about, but in the long term it should feel like a team where you work together. I'd make a really big deal about hearing something like 'being manipualtive' and if they didn't respond in the way I need them to, that'd be a big hint I'd leave.
Searching for someone else is always fine, you might come back to him when you know more about yourself and why currently there are issues, you might not want to even try after... both are fine, both are valid options. It'd also be valid to just talk it through with him, but I'm not certain he'd currently manage to meet you where it's best for you.

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for the comments. Went well with K today, she was very validating. She even said, "What the h*ll?" when I shared something he said Tuesday--the thing about, "I'm just one of millions of people in the world--why does my opinion matter so much to you?" After the WTH, K said, "Because he's your therapist." She seems to think I need to leave, thinks maybe I've outgrown him. She was really bothered by some of what he said in his email reply to me a couple Fridays ago when I was in a bad place. And by some other stuff he's said/done. And I'd mentioned liking hearing "take care" at the end, and she said that to me. She was mystified by his occasional "Enjoy!" as his parting words. She said she's open to working with me longer-term if I want or to be a bridge between T and who I do end up working with. That I could take my time deciding, and she was fine either way. Much different from T's recent "Leave or don't leave."

[SlumberKitty]

I'm glad it went well with K today. She sounds warm.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

Sounds really good that K is willing to meet you where you're at, even if she doesn't become your long term T. Definitely a good sign.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks for the comments. Went well with K today, she was very validating. She even said, "What the h*ll?" when I shared something he said Tuesday--the thing about, "I'm just one of millions of people in the world--why does my opinion matter so much to you?" After the WTH, K said, "Because he's your therapist." She seems to think I need to leave, thinks maybe I've outgrown him. She was really bothered by some of what he said in his email reply to me a couple Fridays ago when I was in a bad place. And by some other stuff he's said/done. And I'd mentioned liking hearing "take care" at the end, and she said that to me. She was mystified by his occasional "Enjoy!" as his parting words. She said she's open to working with me longer-term if I want or to be a bridge between T and who I do end up working with. That I could take my time deciding, and she was fine either way. Much different from T's recent "Leave or don't leave."

Not to burst your bubble, but I see red flags. She’s interfering in an existing therapy relationship. She’s talking to you more like a friend (or a poster on PC!) than a professional.

I mean, Info said not a negative word about No. 3 for months (actually over a year). Nor a positive one, either, but her neutrality while being supportive turned out to be enormously helpful, because her not just backing me up helped me see more clearly and reflect on where things went wrong between me and 3 and my role in them—which meant I could grow and start to move on.

That’s not the only approach, of course, and you might find a different one beneficial. Good luck.

[ArtleyWilkins]

I agree. I smell trouble with this one. She is displaying a lack of professional boundaries that you will feed right into you to your detriment.

[susannahsays]

I have to agree. I wasn't sure how to phrase things without it sounding like a defense of Dr. T, but @@ put it perfectly. I would add that it makes me uneasy because it sounds like she was a bit over the top in the way she reacted. I don't mean she overreacted exactly, but to me, her using "what the hell" and doing lots of body language to convey her outrage feels... idk... kind of fake and manipulative. Maybe not intentionally, I don't know. But it kind of reminds me of how some therapists love bomb their clients.

Call me a cynic, but I would be skeptical of a therapist who doesn't even know me being outwardly anything other than curious and maybe sympathetic about the stuff you mentioned.

[Amyjay]

I don't know, LT. I guess my overall impression is that you've come up across some boundaries with T and he is being firm with them, and you're reacting to that. T has always been on "your side". He hasn't always said or done things you have particularly wanted him to have said or done, but he has more than met you in the middle on most things. I see far more value in working through these things with T who absolutely does care for you, rather than avoiding the conflict and beginning to see someone who agrees with your viewpoint more. I don't see how there can be personal growth or learning from that option.
You have a solid relationship with T. It isn't a "blow in the wind" thing. He has almost consistently been there for you when you have needed him. Far, far more than most other therapists would be. Conflicts happen in all relationships. Intense conflicts happen in all relationships. He absolutely does care for you, even though he makes mistakes some times. Not that my opinion matters, but I think you would be making a dreadful mistake in leaving him, and are making one even in triangulating the relationship by consulting another one.

[stopdog]

I greatly dislike the current male therapist as he is described, but I am not certain you are interpreting this new therapist's reactions correctly. I think trying a new one for a while might help you see if it is a style change that might help, but I would be cautious in interpreting what this new one thinks. I remember you went through a period with the current male therapist where you were interpreting every reaction he had as agreeing with how you saw the marriage counselor and your criticism of the marriage counselor and now you are doing the same thing with this woman. It is just how I see it.

[JaneTennison1]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I greatly dislike the current male therapist as he is described, but I am not certain you are interpreting this new therapist's reactions correctly. I think trying a new one for a while might help you see if it is a style change that might help, but I would be cautious in interpreting what this new one thinks. I think you went through a period with the current male therapist where you were interpreting every reaction he had as agreeing about how you saw the marriage counselor and your criticism of him and now you are doing the same thing with this woman. It is just how I see it.

Agreed, there is an element of triangulation in most of the therapy relationships you describe, you and T against MC, you and K against T, what if it was just you and you didn't blame T for what he "should or shouldn't" do but instead took some of it on?

Don't get me wrong, you know I don't have good thoughts about T and haven't since....the beginning? Everything you say, every decision, like drinking or not, is related to another person and not just related to you. Your drinking is due to a feeling in you, not a responsibility of T.

I do agree that you seem to need ssomeone more gentle in your life than exists currently, but that does not mean taking sides.

My current T has not judged ex T 1 or given her opinion, I can tell some times she does not agree with everything, but her refusal to join me and hate on EX T 1 gave me space to examine everything.

She did eventually admit that she did not agree with Ex T 2 and was glad the complaints board also saw things that way, but that was after close to a year.

So your view may be different but I do wonder if it is best to keep looking. Validation is nice but long term it may not provoke the changes you need.After all, how can you ever examine your part in all this when someone is so willing to blame T with you?

[LonesomeTonight]

Will reply more later, but there is something stopping me from making another appointment with the T I saw today. And something when I saw her 7 months ago, too--at the time, she did seem too "friend-like." I partly saw her this time so that I wouldn't have to go through a whole intake/history thing with a new T just to talk about my current T. I am seeing someone new next week, plus have a phone consult set with another T. I'm mostly trying to use the T I saw today to help me step away from my current T. While the others I've contacted...I'm hoping one of them could become longer-term. I'm doing a regular intake session with "M" next week--I told him in the phone consult that I'd had lots of conflicts with current T lately. But I want to evaluate him more as: Could I see him being a therapist for me going forward? Same with the woman (now it's complicated, because her first initial, K, is the same as who I saw today...) All the people I've contacted (including one I haven't heard back from and one who isn't available until next month) have different therapeutic orientations than current T. I think I just need a change for a bit. Maybe I can eventually go back to T. But what's going on right now between us isn't working and isn't helping. So, I could keep beating my head against a wall, or I could step back and look elsewhere.

[nottrustin]

Are you looking for validation from all these new Ts that current T is bad for you. I get the impression you you feel it is not working with him the way you want it to but want the validation from other Ts before you make a break from him. I know I could be way off base, though

[zoiecat]

I agree with the others. I am not judging but simply observing. It appears that your ruptures almost always happen when your T does not say or do what you want him too. There are then extra sessions where it appears that you try to persuade him to agree with you. Now that he is holding his boundaries you want to end the relationship.

Personally I so wish you would let your T hold his boundaries and allow him to not agree with you once in awhile. Rather than continuing to work on the therapeutic relationship, push yourself out of your comfort zone and work on the reasons why you feel this way. Afterall you always say it is not about T, it is transference about something in your past. How will things ever improve for you if you don't work on the past and the reasons why you always need validation, agreement and approval for your wants?

That being said, it is totally up to you if you want to change therapists. The only thing I observe from your write up that scares me is your approach in determining what you consider a good option for the future. I do believe K was unethical in her reactions but she seems to be reading you very well and selling herself to you by giving you what you want. I don't think this would necessarily benefit your growth and self improvement even though I think she would make you happy by agreeing with you on everything.

I think it would help you more if you just interviewed each T based on what they can offer you. Why bring up everything your current T has said or done to upset you only to receive validation that you are right and he is wrong? Are you looking for a new T in order to help you move forward and heal your past or are you simply looking for a new T that will agree with you and keep you stuck by doing everything your way?

I guess that is the question you have to ask yourself in order to choose the right T. I wish you the best and hope you make the right decision for yourself.

[WarmFuzzySocks]

LT, though I am lifting it out of context, I think your T is right about one thing: Leave or don’’t leave.

Either he’’s not the t for you, and it is time to find a new t who can help you.
Or you’re bumping up against some scary hard boundary stuff you’d benefit from working through with him.

I don’’t know the right answer to that for you. But this time, effort, energy focused on stay-go, and the search for a new t while you’’re still seeing him doesn’t help you do either, it just keeps you stuck in triangulation and focused away from the issues that brought you into therapy.

And a because this is just hard stuff.