[zoiecat]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Honestly, it can be challenging. I'm trying to read them with an open mind. And I also haven't been posting in this thread in the long stretch where things had gone really well with him, so it's just showing the negative.

And it's easy from the outside to be like, "yes, you need to change T's!" I try so hard not to advise people of that because I know it can be really difficult to hear and often not helpful. Would someone tell me, for example, "You need to change husbands!" Well, maybe. But it just seems like with T's, it's easy to say "Just find a new one!" when it isn't quite that simple, for multiple reasons.

And, OK, in my write-up of Monday's session, I left out the part where I mentioned to him some of the comments on here, then started crying and saying, "But I don't want to see a different therapist--I want to work on this with you." And then asking if he had the tools to help me. (He started talking about a couple techniques, but it was a conversation to be continued later.)

I know I push this concept as well and feel free to ignore me but if you are not ready to try a different T or add an EMDR T, a DBT class would allow you to keep seeing your T while still learning some helpful skills. Plus you will be required to email the DBT teacher when you are in distress. I took DBT classes for about 2 years and they helped me so much. My T pushed it pretty hard because he knew I needed the distress tolerance and mindfulness skills which ties in with distress tolerance. I think DBT sometimes get a bad wrap because people feel it is only for BPD but it is helpful for so many other issues. Classes usually run for about 2 and a half hours every 2 weeks. My T continues to reinforce DBT skills almost every session. I still have a long way to go but I have seen a lot of improvement in the level of distress I feel now versus 5 years ago when I started with him.

[Rive.]

if I check in with, say, a friend or my H on whether something is OK, they say it's fine, and then at some random time they suddenly decide it's not fine, and I had no way of knowing that.

Yes, you have no way of knowing. But that's why they are letting you know when, or as soon as, it becomes an issue for them.

I don't think it's 'at some random time'. Sometimes people can be fine with something but as time goes on or something changes for them, they realise they are no longer fine with it. Sometimes people can also change their minds.. That is the nature of human beings. Something can't be 'fine' forever... or 'not fine' forever. There is fluctuation for whatever reason.

It seems this is what happened with your T. He was initially fine but over time it was less so. I believe you asked your T to tell you when this happened. So, he told you at the first (appropriate) opportunity. He did stick to the 'deal' you both made for him to speak up when/if something changes for him. He honoured that deal and didn't stay quiet and let it fester or turn into resentment.

But now it seems you feel bad that he told you... Just as you had no way of knowing, he also had no way of knowing he would feel differently down the line.

[waterlogged]

Longtime lurker here.

Do you have any local Mexican or Chinese restaurants with a kids menu? There’s like chicken strips or a hot dog, or French fries. It’s like you’re going to a Mexican restaurant but wanting Italian food. Technically it’s on the menu, sorta, but it’s not why people go there.

Like you want to do deep relational work, but you’re seeing someone who doesn’t work in that way. That doesn’t mean that Dr T isn’t useful for certain things, but he’s not ever going to be a relational/psychodynamic/trauma T.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by zoiecat

I know I push this concept as well and feel free to ignore me but if you are not ready to try a different T or add an EMDR T, a DBT class would allow you to keep seeing your T while still learning some helpful skills. Plus you will be required to email the DBT teacher when you are in distress. I took DBT classes for about 2 years and they helped me so much. My T pushed it pretty hard because he knew I needed the distress tolerance and mindfulness skills which ties in with distress tolerance. I think DBT sometimes get a bad wrap because people feel it is only for BPD but it is helpful for so many other issues. Classes usually run for about 2 and a half hours every 2 weeks. My T continues to reinforce DBT skills almost every session. I still have a long way to go but I have seen a lot of improvement in the level of distress I feel now versus 5 years ago when I started with him.

Thanks. So this is the case, that I can do both DBT classes and my regular T? I got the sense when I looked into it years ago that it was like, do the DBT class plus have a DBT and that's all you can do in that time. Which is what kept me from doing that before, that I didn't want to switch from ex-T at the time. Maybe it was just the one particular program I saw? I suppose I'll see what's offered around me.

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

LT what I find the most disturbing is that he doesn't understand distress tolerance. That seems to be fundamental when it comes to trauma therapy. When I started seeing my current therapist we realized early on that until we could open my window of stress tolerance we would never realy be able to deal with my trauma to the point it no longer effected my life. We have been working on it for almost 5 years. We have made some progrss but it takes time and a lot of hard work. She is amazing in very gradually helping me to increase my window.

This is literally what I talked about with my T, who is trained in trauma therapy, today. We literally are just starting to talk about trauma and what it means to me, and she noticed when I was starting to become overwhelmed, and stopped me. Had me ground (I like to find things in the room).

Also LT: I’ve been thinking a lot about how your T expects you to trust him by now. My T tonight said (after I told her I would have to trust her words on a subject), “You don’t have to trust me. That is absolutely okay.” And it was a sort of relief.

Sorry- a ramble!

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

He has said he'd be open to my doing EMDR with someone else while seeing him, so that could be an option. I'll look into it. I had contacted an internal family systems therapist maybe a year and a half ago, and Dr. T also seemed open to my working with both of them at once. Though I don't know if I burned the bridge with that therapist by saying I wasn't ready to do that work at that time--I feel like I left him hanging for a while. I'd feel reluctant to reach out again unless I was definitely ready.

Unless this T is a terrible T, they should 100% understand that you weren’t ready. I see two T’s, and it always has worked out, as they take different approaches, and we don’t exactly focus on the same thing.

Originally Posted by nottrustin

I hope I never come across as saying someboy should leave their therapist. I think you have a therapist that is beneficial to you. I recognize your frustrartion which is why I recommend seeing a second person. I have seen and experienced the benefits of two people with very different strengths and approaches.

Just reiterating what I think, lol.

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks. So this is the case, that I can do both DBT classes and my regular T? I got the sense when I looked into it years ago that it was like, do the DBT class plus have a DBT and that's all you can do in that time. Which is what kept me from doing that before, that I didn't want to switch from ex-T at the time. Maybe it was just the one particular program I saw? I suppose I'll see what's offered around me.

As far as I know, they don’t have to be mutually exclusive. I am starting a DBT group in a week or two, and this is on top of seeing two T’s! haha.

I also want to say that even though I have been off-put by some things Dr. T says/does, I would never urge you to change T’s if you don’t want to/aren’t ready.

My last T I saw for 5 years, and it was probably 4.5 years too many. I didn’t see it at the time, but my anxiety over our relationship never lowered much. I only realized how anxious and fraught I was all time over it because of my relationship with my current T’s now. It is a world of difference. It also does not mean the anxiety has gone away, but I am able to bring it up easier, and it happens much less often.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks. So this is the case, that I can do both DBT classes and my regular T? I got the sense when I looked into it years ago that it was like, do the DBT class plus have a DBT and that's all you can do in that time. Which is what kept me from doing that before, that I didn't want to switch from ex-T at the time. Maybe it was just the one particular program I saw? I suppose I'll see what's offered around me.

When i was doing it 15 years ago, i think they were running control groups in the field. So like to get certified as certified dbt people, they didnt want their clients seeing other ts. I.e., cuz it was such a new procedure? That shyte is hopefully over now.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

I hope I never come across as saying someboy should leave their therapist. I think you have a therapist that is beneficial to you. I recognize your frustrartion which is why I recommend seeing a second person. I have seen and experienced the benefits of two people with very different strengths and approaches.

No, I don't get that from you. It's hard because I had also experienced ex-MC, who was warm and fuzzy and very reassuring--and then he ultimately hurt me. In part because he had seemed fine with everything until he suddenly wasn't. When I suspect he wasn't fine before, but just didn't tell me because he knew it would be painful. So in a way, I appreciate that Dr. T does share when he's just "mildly irritated."

I just think it might be hard for me to trust another T. If they seem too accepting, then it might be like, "OK, they're just saying that, any minute, they'll reject me." In some weird way, it's almost easier now to deal with a T who is less accepting on the surface. Even if it's painful, I feel it would be much farther to fall with a T who seemed more accepting, then turned out not to be.

Though maybe it would be different if I were seeing a T solely for EMDR or DBT?

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I just think it might be hard for me to trust another T. If they seem too accepting, then it might be like, "OK, they're just saying that, any minute, they'll reject me." In some weird way, it's almost easier now to deal with a T who is less accepting on the surface. Even if it's painful, I feel it would be much farther to fall with a T who seemed more accepting, then turned out not to be.

Does the experience of feeling safer with somebody who is less accepting feel familiar? That seems like the sort of earlier experience that could show up as a pattern in somebody's life. (You don't necessarily have to answer, just wondering.) The "Okay, any minute you're going to reject me" thing is totally the kind of thing that comes up (probably over and over and over again) in relational therapy. And I can understand why you would be cautious given what happened during that odd hybrid marriage/individual counseling situation with ex-MC.

Though maybe it would be different if I were seeing a T solely for EMDR or DBT?

You might even be able to find somebody who does both since they sort of go together, at least in terms of the same people benefiting from both. (My EMDR T does both.)

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Does the experience of feeling safer with somebody who is less accepting feel familiar? That seems like the sort of earlier experience that could show up as a pattern in somebody's life. (You don't necessarily have to answer, just wondering.) The "Okay, any minute you're going to reject me" thing is totally the kind of thing that comes up (probably over and over and over again) in relational therapy. And I can understand why you would be cautious given what happened during that odd hybrid marriage/individual counseling situation with ex-MC.

Yes! I will say that with my long term T, this comes up very rarely these days. I mean it HAS been 7 years. But it has taken a lot of reassurances and repetitions that she won't kick me out/hate me for me to even start to believe it.

[nottrustin]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

No, I don't get that from you. It's hard because I had also experienced ex-MC, who was warm and fuzzy and very reassuring--and then he ultimately hurt me. In part because he had seemed fine with everything until he suddenly wasn't. When I suspect he wasn't fine before, but just didn't tell me because he knew it would be painful. So in a way, I appreciate that Dr. T does share when he's just "mildly irritated."

I just think it might be hard for me to trust another T. If they seem too accepting, then it might be like, "OK, they're just saying that, any minute, they'll reject me." In some weird way, it's almost easier now to deal with a T who is less accepting on the surface. Even if it's painful, I feel it would be much farther to fall with a T who seemed more accepting, then turned out not to be.

Though maybe it would be different if I were seeing a T solely for EMDR or DBT?

I feared the same thing which is why I insisted on continuing tp see my long term therapist at t the same time. I knew she would continue to support me through the traumatic part of my therapy. She would stay my safety net if things did not work out with the new therapist. Also, od there were red flags she would help me deal with that.

[JaneTennison1]

Hi LT. there's a lot I wanted to say in reply to your post so this might be long winded.

Firstly I fully accept I might be taking things you say and seeing them through my own red flag experience. When I first joined here I was seeing a T who reminds me of how you describe your T. She was very much out of her depth with my needs. She would make me feel ashamed sometimes of my needs, like needing contact or needing her was wrong or weird somehow. So I spent hours thinking about it and her, how to avoid her rejection, how to follow the "rules" so that I pleased her. I even thought I made progress in that time and I would tell everyone they didn't understand how we wormed. It blew up. One day she was burnt out and walked out. That was our last session and it was devastating.

Moving on to my current therapist. It's been 5 years and I only just used the word trust with her, and it wasn't even to say I fully trusted her but just that I trusted one aspect. I no longer think about what I say or who I have to be to avoid rejection.

2 years ago I started seeing an EMDR therapist . She deals with trauma in both adults and children. She is extremely compassionate and as well pushed me to talk fully about my childhood. I also didn't spend time thinking about our relationship or how to avoid being rejected because I felt secure. When I left she gave me a small object so that I could feel connected with her any time I needed to

My emetophpbia has 3 parts to it

1. Is the just stimuli of being sick. I'm intending to start a course of exposure therapy but I couldn't even think of it until dealing with part 2 and 3.

2. The mixed up thoughts surrounding being ill. Being messy, being "bad", causing other people any kind of anger or upset. This has been dealt with quite well in EMDR therapy. I have finally released a lot of stress caused by an unstable and angry surrounding in childhood.

3. The distraction part. It's like the circumstances I was in as a child were too overwhelming for me to deal with and a way of escaping (mentally) was to obsess and worry and concern myself with being suck. Right now I'm very anxious about something I'm going to be doing and my emetophobia has ramped up a bit. It's like the chaos and discomfort I was in as a kid needed a "safe" outlet and this was it.

Thinking about therapy and my therapist was a way of avoiding dealing with the real core of things. I think because somewhere deep in me I knew she couldn't handle it. I felt unacceptable for my needs and tried to change who I was to fit the therapy because I thought I would die if I was rejected.

Finding someone who can sit with who you really are and who can sort through the broken glass with you, it's something worth fighting for. You deserve to find peace. DBT and CBT aren't always helpful with complex trauma and attachment issues. I know that the therapies I described aren't everyone here and that's ok but feeling like I was really seen has helped the trust issues in every thing I do.

I really hope you can find a path and I'm not saying how I did it is the right or only way , but that it may be a path worth exploring.

Oh and I wanted to say that of course you have needs and of course sometimes they might be "messy" it's his job not to get activated everytime you have a need or an emotion. It's his job to help you explore those, it's not his job to try and "teach you" how you may affect people. I used to have very emotional outbursts that were very unpleasant to be around. When my wife and I would fight (married 11 years) sometimes I would get so scared I was looking up apartments to rent because I was sure this was it. Helping what was causing that rather than be caught up in it was something that saved me. I no longer have meltdowns, I no longer try and run.

Again not saying my way of therapy Is the right way because everyone is helped differently, just saying that you deserve a real shot at healing. I have told my current therapist I am quitting several times. I have told her she is untrustworthy and lies and never once has she had a response to those things. I told EMDR T that she was failing to help me and not once did she have a response that was centered on her feelings it was ALWAYS about wondering what was triggered or coming up that made me feel that way. Sorry I'm rambling now, I just feel like everyone deserves to have their feelings heard and healed as they need/want.

[zoiecat]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks. So this is the case, that I can do both DBT classes and my regular T? I got the sense when I looked into it years ago that it was like, do the DBT class plus have a DBT and that's all you can do in that time. Which is what kept me from doing that before, that I didn't want to switch from ex-T at the time. Maybe it was just the one particular program I saw? I suppose I'll see what's offered around me.

My T is a trauma specialist certified in DBT which is why he bri gs up DBT skills a lot in sessions when I am oarticularly stressed. He pushed me hard to take a class because he wasn't teaching them at the time. IMO I think it is better to take a class versus doing it alone with a T. You get to do different activities each week to learn and actively practice skills. You also get to hear and learn from others issues as you work together to help each other. I had to shop around a bit. Many classes have a waiting list. Some require you to see them exclusively but most have no problem with you seeing your current T. Everyone in my classes had their own T outside of class. It is definitely worth a shot and cannot hurt.

[LonesomeTonight]

I'll reply more to other posts later, but I had a DBT skills group question. Do you think it makes that much of a difference if it's virtual vs. in person?

Asking because for some reason, most of them seem to be in an area about a half hour from me (when no traffic), but many of the start times would involve me driving during rush hour, when it's likely to take me an hour or more. Or else they're later, and I'd be getting home in the middle of my D's bedtime (but if it were virtual, that wouldn't be an issue). Plus if Covid becomes worse.... I believe some of the groups may be offered virtually. If not, there are others throughout the state or through that PSYPACT (sp?) thing where a T can practice in a bunch of different states if they're registered with it (so I could take a skills class offered in one of those states, for example, if virtual).

Also, some are for 6 weeks, some 10, some 24 (which seems like a big commitment! Not sure if I'd have to pay for/commit to them all at once or could try a few sessions and see if it's a good fit). Is there a general standard for them?

I did email a couple to ask about availability and if I could keep working with my therapist vs. having to meet with one of theirs (one said specifically on their site that they could do that, as long as I allowed communication between the group leader and my T AND if they thought my work was compatible with it).

[Quietmind 2]

LT, I don't particularly like Dr T in some ways, and I do hear you on how he helps with D, and I also do want to emphasise that I don't believe in pushing people hard to leave a therapist.

I lived with someone who was really very pushy about wanting to me to change my therapist, so much so that the person would literally physically ambush me for yet another attempt.

I might feel he's shaming and feel he's not great...and I also understand how it's not so simple as just changing therapists when someone has worked with one for a while.

I remember when people suggested I try out other therapists when I was in 2 major, prolonged ruptures with my T (both years ago). I definitely could see why yet also found it really difficult even when I found other therapist profiles who could have been a better match. Ultimately I did spell out what I needed from my T, and why, and we had frank discussions.

The first thing, she came around to understand what I was seeking, and we compromised. I also saw a 2nd T with her agreement. Years after that rupture with me and most likely others, she slowly changed her stance.

The second one, was me refusing to do trauma work as I knew it could really harm me due to circumstances in my life, and she respected that.

[zoiecat]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I'll reply more to other posts later, but I had a DBT skills group question. Do you think it makes that much of a difference if it's virtual vs. in person?

Asking because for some reason, most of them seem to be in an area about a half hour from me (when no traffic), but many of the start times would involve me driving during rush hour, when it's likely to take me an hour or more. Or else they're later, and I'd be getting home in the middle of my D's bedtime (but if it were virtual, that wouldn't be an issue). Plus if Covid becomes worse.... I believe some of the groups may be offered virtually. If not, there are others throughout the state or through that PSYPACT (sp?) thing where a T can practice in a bunch of different states if they're registered with it (so I could take a skills class offered in one of those states, for example, if virtual).

Also, some are for 6 weeks, some 10, some 24 (which seems like a big commitment! Not sure if I'd have to pay for/commit to them all at once or could try a few sessions and see if it's a good fit). Is there a general standard for them?

I did email a couple to ask about availability and if I could keep working with my therapist vs. having to meet with one of theirs (one said specifically on their site that they could do that, as long as I allowed communication between the group leader and my T AND if they thought my work was compatible with it).

Based on my experience I think one would get more out of in person especially with completing the group activities. DBT is a big commitment. All of the classes I have looked into were 6 months. There are 4 topics to cover in the book and a class usuallu does 2 rounds through each topic. So I can't even imagine it being beneficial to do with 6-10 weeks. Skills take practice and time to learn. Even if one were to meet more often, you have the round table discussion time where you bring up what went good or bad for the week and learn coping skill options. One would get more benefit from this by allowing more time between classes. IMO after 2 years of DBT classes I would always say longer is better.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by zoiecat

Based on my experience I think one would get more out of in person especially with completing the group activities. DBT is a big commitment. All of the classes I have looked into were 6 months. There are 4 topics to cover in the book and a class usuallu does 2 rounds through each topic. So I can't even imagine it being beneficial to do with 6-10 weeks. Skills take practice and time to learn. Even if one were to meet more often, you have the round table discussion time where you bring up what went good or bad for the week and learn coping skill options. One would get more benefit from this by allowing more time between classes. IMO after 2 years of DBT classes I would always say longer is better.

Thanks, this is helpful to know, including about having the space in between classes. One place offered a "DBT summer boot camp" where it was like an class a day 3 or 4 days a week for maybe 6 weeks? With the idea that you get all the skills quickly.

But it made me think of this new-year reboot that I tried to do with a local yoga studio, where it was an hour or two of activities every day for a month, with some yoga, breathing exercises, journaling, etc. I got through the first couple weeks, was a bit overwhelmed, and did some parts of the rest, but it was just too much in a short span of time. (I think I still have access to the videos--maybe I should try to finish that up!)

[velcro003]

My DBT class is going to be virtual. I am actually talking to that T this weekend, so if I find out more details, I will let you know!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by velcro003

My DBT class is going to be virtual. I am actually talking to that T this weekend, so if I find out more details, I will let you know!

OK, thanks!

[velcro003]

Hey LT:I talked to my DBT T tonight, and thought I'd give you more details in now mine will work, if you are interested.

It is on Zoom, and there are about 10 people total. There are four main "pillars" of DBT (mindfulness, distress tolerance, emotional regulation and interpersonal efficacy), and this first one is 10 weeks (1.5 each week), and the T is focusing on mindfulness skills. Each week we start with a check-in to see how everyone is doing, and then if we used the skill we learned from the week before. Then the rest of the time is learning a new skill.

After the 10 weeks, there is a couple week break, and then the T will move onto the next pillar, if we want to continue. It seems interesting and hopefully helpful. I really like this T (they are from the crisis center I was at), so hopefully that will ease the anxiety I will have over all of it.

Let me know if you have any other questions!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by velcro003

Hey LT:I talked to my DBT T tonight, and thought I'd give you more details in now mine will work, if you are interested.

It is on Zoom, and there are about 10 people total. There are four main "pillars" of DBT (mindfulness, distress tolerance, emotional regulation and interpersonal efficacy), and this first one is 10 weeks (1.5 each week), and the T is focusing on mindfulness skills. Each week we start with a check-in to see how everyone is doing, and then if we used the skill we learned from the week before. Then the rest of the time is learning a new skill.

After the 10 weeks, there is a couple week break, and then the T will move onto the next pillar, if we want to continue. It seems interesting and hopefully helpful. I really like this T (they are from the crisis center I was at), so hopefully that will ease the anxiety I will have over all of it.

Let me know if you have any other questions!

Thanks, Velcro, this is useful to know. Are you just taking the class separately or also seeing the T individually? I hope you'll find the course to be helpful!

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

I don't know how it's over in the US, but here it's usually different Ts, one that does group and one that is individual. My T has offered me going at one point, and it would have been him doing usual individual and somebody else doing the group.

Edit: that doesn't mean there might not be some one on one contact in groups, but you don't have to choose one or the other.

[ScarletPimpernel]

There is a DBT program where you have a DBT T and DBT group. There are also just DBT groups. I was never part of a program, just groups. I tried 5 groups. Only two were really helpful. They were helpful because they were structured skills group. The process groups didn't help.

[velcro003]

Yeah I am seeing my regular T’s as well. She is a T, but more the group leader in this instance.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

There is a DBT program where you have a DBT T and DBT group. There are also just DBT groups. I was never part of a program, just groups. I tried 5 groups. Only two were really helpful. They were helpful because they were structured skills group. The process groups didn't help.

Thanks for sharing your experience. The ones that helped, were they the type where you did homework?


It occurs to me that I meant to ask Dr. T about this today (he was out yesterday, so just seeing him today and Friday) and forgot. Wanted to see if he had clients who had done them and if they'd helped.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by velcro003

Yeah I am seeing my regular T’s as well. She is a T, but more the group leader in this instance.

Ah, I see.