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  #1  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 05:21 PM
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So... T has decided that "in my best long term interests" it is not useful for him to call me back anymore, or leave me helpful voicemails. He has decided i need to learn how to "give myself" these things.

i understand his reasoning... i do...

but this has left me with not much of anything outside of therapy sessions.

i had over-used the phone priviledges a bit just after H went away... but nothing extreme.

i feel really lost now... abandoned. He says that isn't true... that somehow because his intent is supposedly in my best interests, that this somehow makes it different than that. It doesn't feel different.

i told him i feel tossed out into space. i asked him what did i have now to help me and he said that i have the old voicemails, i knew how to make helpful lists or use ones i had already made.

i feel kind of heart-broken and i don't know what to do.. it seems like the more this upsets me the more sure he is that doing this is the right thing... it's a catch 22, if i go along with it i lose that resource, if i fight against it i lose the resource..

i don't understand what i am supposed to do

i feel like i was just starting to feel like he was there and that i mattered, and now it's being removed....

i don't know that i have ever felt so alone... i let him get closer to me than anyone has, and this is how i'm supposed to get better?

so lost

so alone

so confused

i have no one close to me to give me anything now

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  #2  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 06:03 PM
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  #3  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 06:25 PM
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(((((jello))))) It must be very confusing to have your T offer and provide this for a time period and then change his mind. Like yanking the rug out from under you. Please keep posting here on PC and getting support from the many friends that care about you. access denied

I think these T's who are so generous with their email and phone support need to be very very certain that is what they want to provide so that they won't change their minds once they get into it. I think it is harder for the client to adapt to a change of policy than to just have a firm policy in place to start with (limited calls, no email, or whatever it is). Makes me mad. Grrrrr. Yeah, he's human and I guess he can change his mind. But jello, I hate you have to go through this painful change in policy because he decided it was a mistake.

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  #4  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 07:03 PM
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he didn't decide it was a mistake... he decided it was time for me to become more independent.. he wants me to "gain confidence" in my abilities to help myself... i can follow his reasoning about that part, but i thought it would be slow, incremental and i thought he would maybe boost his support within session first... this is cold turkey.. and i don't understand what i am supposed to do.

i just dont understand... access denied

i dont understand what "being there" means now.
  #5  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 07:27 PM
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I think incremental wouldbe good too--to wean you off of his previous program. Can you suggest to him that it be incremental? Also, if he wants you to use your own abilities to help yourself to deal with this, I hope he is giving you specific strategies and even coaching you in practicing these strategies in session. Otherwise, how will you know how to do it? It's like he's saying, "sink or swim, baby." When my T taught me techniques for rescuing the traumatized little girl inside of me, we practiced these together in session. I could never have come up with these on my own or known how to do them. I am grrrrrr at your T. Sorry.

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  #6  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 07:56 PM
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Ugh. I am so sorry, I know that this must be painful. Do you think it hurts more because he didn't involve you in the process? Maybe you can tell him this? I don't know, I'm just trying to think of something. You still have me, PM me if you need me I love ya' and am here for you!
  #7  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 08:29 PM
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((Fluff))
I hate when intellectually I can understand the logic or reason behind a decision but yet I can't get the rest of me to accept it. I don't have any good suggestions for you. I hope it gets easier for you.
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  #8  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 08:31 PM
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"i feel like i was just starting to feel like he was there and that i mattered, and now it's being removed...."

Perhaps you can tell him this like you told us and suggest that yes, he can remove the life line at a certain set time... not now. so like have him allow you calls up until such date. maybe come up with a top number of calls this week can have, then 2 less next week, then 2 less the week after.... and meanwhile have him (like sunrise said) practice the skills in session that he wants you to use onece the phone is nixed....???
I also am grrrrrrr at your t!!! and Soli's t, also. a big hippo grrrrrrr.
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  #9  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 08:49 PM
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Fluff....this sucks.

I once read that T's need to be very careful with boundaries because when they change them, it can be devestating to their clients. And that change should not occur without discussion with the client.

I think you need to be upfront and tell T that this is too hard and that you want to try and come to an agreement but this one is not fair.

I don't know how, because that is really hard to do.....but maybe you can try.

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  #10  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 09:01 PM
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((((fluff)))) I am so glad you mentioned "incremental". That is the exact word I was thinking of while reading your post. I have to go out on a limb & say that I think he COMPLETELY blew this one. After knowing your issues w/trust etc. and the fact that you were finally beginning to find some stability there with him, it seems cruel. Growth is slow and fluid. He could have offered himself the way he did when you desperately need it and THEN AFTER discussed some ways to keep it in place with "limits" This would have helped you find ways with his support to start "doing it on your own". Just knowing the support is there is more than 1/2 the battle. I have only called my t. one time in 2yrs., but knowing I could makes me feel safe and cared about.

I wish I had advice. I understand the dilemma you have. Either way, you get the same results. Have you mentioned having call privledges with limits to him? Told him that you'll do your very best to stay within the limits?

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  #11  
Old Mar 17, 2008, 09:50 PM
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I did cold turkey (instigated by myself) by using my journal more. Of course, that first week I accidentally left it in her office (T was going away). So, she had to take care of my journal while she was away, LOL.

I reasoned that since I only had what was "there" that I'd better be there too. So, I hyperfocused during the time I was in session rather than afterwards since there would be no afterwards. I started thinking about therapy a bit less when I wasn't there (since my T wasn't there either) and paying more attention to school, work, daily chores, etc., my actual life and its problems. It was kind of nice to be forced back to them a bit more instead of concentrating quite so hard on therapy when I wasn't at therapy. It took about a month or so to get use to the switch and to do therapy only in therapy.
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  #12  
Old Mar 18, 2008, 09:49 AM
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i won't live through a month of this. i am not in a place mentally/emotionally where i have those skills... perna, the more i read your reply, the more hurt i feel. i am struggling through this mess with my husband, through complicated medical isees, financial issues *and* trying to understand just how my past relationships have resulted in the damage i work within now. Choosing something yourself is not the same as it being forced on you. The irony is that knowing he was "there" was making it possible to stop thinking about therapy outside of therapy. Each of us are different and that was what was working and helping me. How i am "broken" or dysfunctional is different than how someone else is.

i am allowed to leave messages.. i leave a few each week. i rarely ask for calls back... this particular issue came up regarding getting a voicemail from him... i wanted a new voicemail, they need to change and be updated.. but he wouldn't give me one.

iget mad too.. but i have no recourse, what could i say? "because i am hurt that you aren't there i'll stop going?" catch 22

im going to ask about the incremental agreement... there has to be something..

this is all i can think about... i burst into tears sporadically... i pace

this is so painful.... this feels exactly like a repeat of some of the events that lead to me being messed up in the first place.

i hear "get away from me" and i know he would say that isn't what he is saying, but i dont see the difference.
  #13  
Old Mar 18, 2008, 11:36 AM
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Jello I really feel for you. I think what I like best about my T is that she is very consistent and predictable. It is my perception that she has refined her approaches and general plan of care over the years. Since I have struggle a great deal personally with when and when not to communicate with my T outside of sessions, I think I would have a really hard time if she abruptly said hey you can't...write me anymore! Now, if I go in to my session today and she says..
'Look you've been communicating xyz with me in writing, but I really think it is time that we try to move beyond that.' What do you say if we discuss what and when you write me. How does placing a 24 or 48 hour hold on what you write. Then if you think it is really important to send then you can email it to me.' What do you think of this idea?'

I think I could make the adjustment. But just cutting me off.. I would have a lot of trouble with that approach.

How long has your T been practicing?

Do you think a lot of these changes are happening in part because of significant changes in your T's personal life?
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  #14  
Old Mar 18, 2008, 01:02 PM
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no..i don't think it's anything about his life or him... he's been practicing for over 20yrs

honestly? i dont know what or how to think

he wants me to start helping myself and not reach for him as the first line of defence

that part makes sense to me

but i am unable to define what the structure is now...

he never said "I will never return your calls"... what he said was "..calling you back is not in your long term best interests"

i don't know if that includes "never" i have no ability or basis to make that decision really

to decide that he would return my call in a bad situation would mean i would have to make assumptions all over the place... i'd have to decide i was worth something worth a whole lot more than the nothing i believe i am. i would have to be able to really gauge what he would or won't do and i dont want to just guess.

if i put this in the best possible light and give it the best of all intentions and all the ideals i can apply... then what i come up with is that he really would call me if things were beyond my ability to cope, but he wants me to come to that conclusion - THAT is a pretty big leap from what i have been able to do so far..if indeed that is the idea at all... like i said, i would have to apply some pretty big "ideal filters" to it.

we were making changes... or so i thought...

maybe i am stupid? does "..calling you back is not in your long term best interests" sound like he is planning to still return my calls?

i just want to feel secure

but all i feel is pain
  #15  
Old Mar 18, 2008, 01:38 PM
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sounds like there may be some room for clarification there with him. it makes me think of the parent bird kicking the wee bird out of the nest - but if they do it too soon, the wee one can't fly and gets really hurt; either in the fall from the tree, or it can't get food, can't escape predators.
perhaps you could use that line of reasoning and explain it is too soon!!!
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  #16  
Old Mar 18, 2008, 03:26 PM
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yeah kiya.. exactly.. that is exactly it.

i have been writing about this nonstop... god knows how many pages... but i am so very unclear about what my misperceptions are vs. things which are true but painful.
  #17  
Old Mar 18, 2008, 05:26 PM
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I definately think you need "clarification" at your next appt. Make it your 1st order of business so he understands you are confused and concerned. When I read back youre quote from him, it is hard to know whether he meant in the long run it would not help you or if he meant starting right now.

Difficult to believe somebody with 20yrs. wouldn't know how painful and potentially dangerous it could be to tell somebody "no call-backs". When he mentioned the call backs, did you say anything? Or were you too stunned & upset?

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  #18  
Old Mar 18, 2008, 06:06 PM
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too confused

but there's more.. and i don't know how much he knows this part.. we haven't even had a chance to do much past stuff...

but i have an extreme fear of asking for anything emotional, and it's 100x worse if it feels like the other person doesn't want to give it, or in this case i'd have to "beg" (to quote a previous thread of mckell's)

so i had trouble following... trouble understanding... i started phasing out too

and of course, he's right about something with me.. i really DO filter things, i really DO sometimes think in all or nothing... so i was automatically doing all of that, but i don't know just when i am doing it vs getting it right

so i asked him if he was saying that he would never return my calls or would never give me another voicemail... and he cut the last word off and said ".. see? your mind automatically goes to what you can't do and focuses on what I can do"

he didn't clarify any more than that... and that was about as brave as i could get...

i was dissociating all over the place after that

he started explaining some cbt stuff he wanted to do wiht me... i don't have a %#@&#! clue what he was saying... he wrote stuff down and gave me some kind of print out sheet or something... i told him i wasn't able to stay with him... that i wasn't listening... he launched into reasons why that was happening... thoughts feeling blah blah something something something... see you thursday

in between someplace i told him not too much new too fast and he nodded that he understood

i told him i felt tossed out into space and he said "i know you feel that way but it isn't true.

he said i was thinking in terms of all or nothing

i am so painfully confused. i skipped my meetings and studio work today. i haven't been able to function.. i need to create a portfolio submission for tomorrow for a paid exhibition and all i have been able to do is write letters to him and cry. i fear this will be another ativan OD day. The best i was able to do was wlak my dogs and buy coffee

but here's the thing... please help me decide as best you can about this...

he has been rock solid, even when there were rifts, even when it was him and not me, it's been stupid things like timing, or misinterpretations on my part. There have been times when he has triggered me inadvertantly. He has been atentive, and shown caring, even when i was unable to recognize or accept it as such. He has gotten frustrated at times, particularly with the slow development of trust, but he has openly said that is probably his problem. He has been upfront, honest and genuine. During the weeks around H's visit he was unbelievably supportive and gentle. That was what won over my trust and willingness to believe he cared. It touched me deeply. NO one hase ever shown me caring like that.... he said he was proud of me... i was 23 the first time anyone said they were proud of me!

He's not superhuman though, and we have friction sometimes... on both sides. The foundation has thus far stayed intact overall.

two weeks ago he returned a call and said i needed to call him less now... and i completely understood, i was reaching for him too much... and we had one of what he said was the most productive talks ever... it was after that talk that i was terribly triggered, which we expected. i thought about leaving because i was so triggered. i went to session and cried for the first time. It was a hard session which started out with frustration on both sides but ended with us both on the same page...

he was ok with voicemails and so i left him a couple over the following week.. i think.. not many by any means.

then thursday i ask for a voicemail based on questions i would pose (because those have been the best responses). He balked a little... he said i should try to answer them first myself... i didn't understand and was upset.. i talked to him on the phone for like 2 minutes to clarify that one. He was willing to give a voicemail but asked me to write out the questions and my own answers first. i did.. and then i left a message asking him the questions, with our normal routine being he would then leave me a voicemail back. But i was home at the time he called and got the call by accident... it was in that short talk that he said he didn't want to give the voicemail based on what i was asking... that he really felt i needed to find those answers in myself and not give them special power because they were said by him.

i was really, really anxious due to medication issues... and i dwelled on it more than it required because of that. Saturday night i took too much ativan and alternated between semi-consciousness, passing out and blacking out. i have no idea how much i took.

SO.... after all that... after a year together in which he has never shoved me hard ever... he has always been gentle and cautious, for obvious reasons...

would he turn around and just leave me alone like that? am i reading it all wrong?

while walking the dogs i was thinking about this... maybe the lack of clarification was really what he was pushing about... maybe he was trying to get me to decide for myself just how much i could trust him to respond in legitimately hard times... ?? i wish he had said it that way if that was what he wants... he is rarely unclear so it makes me think that no, that isn't it...

i am so confused...

part of me says that he has been there in such a strong way, and has been well aware of how deficient i am in certain skills and confidence.... that he wouldn't just *never* call me back. He would know just how cold turkey and hard that would be for me...

but... part of me says that what he said is what it is... that if he meant otherwise he'd say so. He took the trouble to say that the foundation has not changed... so he knows how hard this is for me...

parts of me cling to the idea that he wouldn't just hurt me, and being that black and white would be so hurtful

parts of me know that no one really wants me... no one can *know* me and stay... i know what it is to be on the periphery and have to pretend you don't need anything other than the crumbs of affection and caring you might get... nope, i don't need anything or anyone

what do you all think of this?
  #19  
Old Mar 18, 2008, 06:51 PM
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=( no idea!! i hate it when t's are not clear and like i can't ask them to be more clear because just being there is a trigger. i have to chalk it up to t just being cognitively different than me, but that doesn't help the situation.
Hold on out there!!!
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  #20  
Old Mar 18, 2008, 11:04 PM
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Oh Jello, I'm so sorry this has happened.

I think there could be two quite different things that are going on, and it is important for your therapist to engage in some self reflection and figure out and communicate to you honestly where things are at.

The first possibility... Is that your therapist needs this boundary for themself. It might be that your therapist is feeling worn a little thin at this point and so needs to cut down on out of session contact etc so that they can continue to function as a therapist as well as they do.

This (of course) raises a number of concerns (well, it jolly well would for me at any rate) about whether I'm too much. About whether I'm too demanding. Takes a very secure therapist indeed to really believe (and hence properly convey) that it is *their* weakness rather than your own.

The second possibility... Is that your therapist is doing alright... But that they honestly believe that you need this little 'push' in order to discover that you are more independent than you think you are.

There are two (main) theories on the development of independence.

The first is that the parent needs to give a little 'push' in order to encourage independence.

(That seems to be what your therapist is saying they think)

The second is that the parent doesn't need to give a little 'push'. Instead... When the person is ready to be more independent (because they have properly internalized soothing and caring from others) then they will stop reaching out so much and will venture out more without seeking the parent. (This can be complicated if the person figures out that the parent can't cope with the person's new independence. Some kids stick by their mothers side (e.g., school anxiety) not because they feel particularly anxious about being away from mother but instead they appreciate that their mother is anxious when they are away from them and so they stick close in order to caretake their parent). But this latter problem isn't an issue for you (in the past or with your present therapist) - is it?

If this really is what your therapist is thinking (and they aren't simply attempting to justify why they need more space in a way that implicates your weakness rather than their own) then your therapist might not be aware that there are other theories on the development of independence out there.

Could you talk to your therapist more about this?
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Old Mar 18, 2008, 11:13 PM
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> i told him i felt tossed out into space and he said "i know you feel that way but it isn't true.

> he said i was thinking in terms of all or nothing

Whether it is or isn't true that you have been tossed out into space - that is how you feel. Maybe (probably) because in the past... Maybe with your parents... You needed them to be there providing support for you and... They weren't.

It doesn't matter whether your parents intentionally gave you a 'push' to be more independent (believing that was what was best for your long term interests) or whether they simply weren't able to provide the support you needed (due to their own weakness). Point is that your need for support exceeded the support you were given.

And that is painful. So very painful.

I wonder if your therapist could...
Appreciate that even if you aren't being tossed out into space...
It is a fact that you FEEL that way.
I wonder if your therapist could...
Empathize with the feeling.
Not try and change it.
Not try and cognitively restructure it.
But empathize with the feeling.
How come?

Because feeling alone with feelings of abandonment is so hard and so painful.

If your therapist can sit there with you, empathizing with your feeling alone and abandoned then...

Your therapist is there. There for you RIGHT NOW.

And that... Is what can be healing.

Your therapist can't be there empathizing with you through all the bad feelings...

But if they can do that in session at least...

It makes the times they aren't there more bearable.

And eventually... It becomes internalized.

And then you don't need them so much.

'Cause you can empathize with yourself.

But there is only one way to learn (to internalize the empathy of others).

And when you not only lose that OUT of session
But you lose that IN session

Well the feelings of (emotional) abandonment are only all the more justified...
  #22  
Old Mar 19, 2008, 12:00 AM
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fluff,
I have read & reread your post several times. I keep coming back to the same place........ I think the fact that he has been so solid and dependable in his care for you over a good length of time buys him a lot of credibility. I'm sure the ativan episode was a red-flag for him. He may feel that it is time to start establishing some boundaries for you in hopes of helping you to find ways to ground yourself when you are alone. I don't get the sense that he has suddenly changed the way he feels , but rather he is concerned and wanting you to be able to have tools to keep YOURSELF safe.

My advice to you would be to write these questions and any others you have down. Very specific. Almost in 1,2,3 order. You really need to understand specifically what is happening and why now? If you have a tendancy to lose your concentration in session, this will keep you on track.

He DID NOT quit caring overnight. His thoughts about what would be in your best interest did. What you need to know is what his thinking is. How did he come to this conclusion that you have different needs and what leads him to believe that this is something you should be able to do suddenly?

He has told you the foundation is solid. This means he still feels the same about your relationship. I am sensing a real concern on his part rather than a breaking away. Try to hold on to what you KNOW to be true. Everything else right now is guessing and fear on your part. What you know is that you have been able to trust him and believe in him for a year. He is good at what he does and he has been there when you REALLY needed him.

fluff, I hope at least a little of this makes sense. I'm just free-flowing here. Love to you......and YES you are worth it. AND we were all proud of you during the last few weeks and the way you handled so much so beautifully.

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  #23  
Old Mar 19, 2008, 05:40 PM
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alex... as usual there is a lot of thought and value in what you say. i'm copying it over into a word doc... i don't know.. i may give it to him... but you have it, right on the nose, i want someone to BE with me and let me feel these things... wade out into it with me and let me go all the way into the deep, black water.. you know the places we dont ever want to go? Go with me... just let me be able to turn and look sometimes to see that you are there. That is what i want from him... not some "feel good" cbt ********.

i have been walking through life with a smile on my face... just today a student who has known me for all of art school looked at me and he knew the degree of school stress i am under and he said, "... and always a smile." He's not alone... lots of people say that... when people find out i have one vertebrae slipped out over another and that i live in constant pain... "...and you're always smiling!?!"

i know how to talk to myself with all this positive ********... how the hell does anyone think i got this far?! Right now i should be living in a very small town where the only source of employment died years ago, living on welfare, with a couple of kids, playing biingo on thursday nights and smoking myself into a pile of ash. i should be just shy of a high school diploma and without a hope in hell of making it out of that place.

no. i told myself i could do it and i did. i shattered my pelvis and when i didn't get any reply to calling out for my best friend... i told myself i could find her.. so i got up and i went looking for her - on a fractured pelvis!

im not trying to toot my own horn here... im just pointing out that i did all that pick-yourself-up crap, but it never ever did anything to heal the pain and the anguish that rips and tears at my insides.

that isn't directed at anyone... it's more of an agreement with what you said alex... and that is something i have struggled with all along.. anyone who has read my posts knows that i return to the question of school of thought. If this guy was psychodynamic i think it would be a match made in heaven. Right now the school of thought leads to a lot of pain and friction. We are a good match, not a heavenly one. Personalities match, humour, a lot of stuff... i dont want someone new..

and yeah alex.. the second thing... it's to push me, not his stuff.. i am pretty sure of that. He is very self aware and very ready to take on his "stuff".. i think that even if it impacted therapy he would see that pretty quick and fix it. i am dead certain that he thinks this is the right thing... but i am unclear as to what "the thing" even is..

tulips... the ativan thing happened but there was so many med issues involved... he and i talked about that and i don't think that had anything to do with his choices around this..i thinhk he was concerned for me, but i dont think he worried for my safety at my own hands so to speak.

which leads me to this.... what do i say to him?

my goal is this: i want him to allow me to call in extreme circumstances, not like it has been... that would be a cut back and would be a step towards more independence. i want to know that if we *jointly* decide a voicemail would be helpful, then he would give me that.

if i emphasize how bad things have been i worry it will make him force the issue more

if i emphasize the more positive elements of how i have coped, then i worry that will reinforce his decision

i am damned if i do and damned if i dont

i have no idea what to say, how to say it... everything i come up with terrifies me.. afraid i will solidify his position or make things even worse

if they worsen i may just get up and leave and never go back... can't be any harder than walking on a shattered pelvis right?
  #24  
Old Mar 19, 2008, 10:12 PM
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tulips30 tulips30 is offline
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Member Since: Aug 2007
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 305
fluff, I wish I could have said something that would have been more helpful. I care very much about you. I don't know a whole lot about psychotherapy except for the fact that I go and talk. I don't know one method from another etc. I guess I figure I'm confused about enough without trying to figure out what school of thought my t. is applying etc. If I did, I would probably obcess over it!

I do know that you are suffering and feeling so confused. Like I told you when you were sick, my strengths are in making somebody their favorite comfort food and listening non-judgementally. (I hope) access denied

The one thing I do know, is that you seem to have connected with this t. on many important levels and he sounds like one that you can at least open the doors a little to trust. Beyond that, I'm very confused as to his timing. It doesn't make any sense to me at all. I guess that's what made me think of the ativan. Your safety was the only thing I could think of that would require such a seemingly sudden change.

I'm still here for a shoulder or whatever I can offer to you. access denied access denied access denied

tulips
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  #25  
Old Mar 20, 2008, 09:53 AM
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oh please sweetie... please still be here and talk with me.

i didn't mean that i got little or nothing from what you or anyone else had said, quite the opposite. We haven't talked privately for a while but i adore you. i care so much about people here.

you have been so comforting.. i mean that.. your opinion has mattered too.. you've been very clear-headed and you've given it thought... everyone here has been so supportive. i appreciate the honesty that goes into the answers..

i was just over-excited by what alex said because it's another side of the same cube... the theoretical stuff. i know it not because i learned it all now... i learned *more* of it now. i have always read about psychology, took every class i was allowed to take without enrolling in the major program.. i was already waist deep in this stuff.

im sorry if it sounded like i didn't value what you had to say... im sorry to anyone who got that from what i said... i was just excited and i was venting some too

you guys are so important to me
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