Waiting for the other shoe to drop

I am protecting myself from further hurt with T in the same way I protected myself from my parents.

In therapy, early childhood is played out in the relationship with T. T becomes a "parent" giving us the love and security we never received and showing us how to translate that love into healthy adult relationships with others. After a while, a certain period of giving to us in one way, T expects us to move on to another stage of development in the same way a parent does with a child. I have seen it with many of us here. The phone rules change, the contact becomes more or less; the nature of the relationship becomes other than what we have come to expect. It happens for any number of different reasons, arising out of our therapy and where we are developmentally. This is when we feel the pain.

The hurt we experience when the rules change is truly unbearable. We experience the rage a young child cannot feel; we feel the pain of abandonment that we dissociated when we really were children. I say it's too much. T said it hurts but it is not too much.

How can it be otherwise? How can we grow into our mature selves if we don't experience the pain we set aside when we were children? Yet, I ask myself how can I continue? How can I allow myself to feel like I did last month during the ruptures? How can I dive in again and feel that kind of pain? It seems so much more manageable to avoid it; to go to therapy as an interested observer of my life rather than a feeling participant.

Oh no, a part of me is completely unwilling to engage on that level again. Yet, the observer in me knows it is necessary.

I've never had promises made that were broken...I've never had T backtrack because firm boundaries have always been in place...loose boundaires may sound so sweet and endearing..but are they really?...who pays the final price?...boundaries are there for a reason and many posts here validate that reason...they may be very difficult to work through as difficult as thinking we're getting something when infact we never were??....I think a good enought T is there to witness our growth not to direct at what speed and when it should happen...a good enought T that has enought confidence in their abilties and the process are ok with firm boundaries because they at the end of the day are what work...I'm sorry for those that do not recieve this level of proffessionalism..

Your response is thought provoking. In my case, and I can't speak for others, I believe, in general, T's boundaries were always strong. He told me to call if I needed him. However, we didn't discuss the definition of need, and I began to rely on phone calls for frequent support between sessions. It got to the point where he could not give me the level of support I wanted. He asked me to consider how we can manage the phone calls between session and I flipped out. Yes, his boundary here was blurry and he hurt me with it. He acknowledged that he handled this poorly, especially because he dropped this bomb in the midst of my pain and transference. But we have worked through most of this, and I still call when I need to make contact. However, now I don't ask him to call me back unless that is the only way I can get through something. Often, I just talk to the machine and know he is listening; or I ask him to call back and leave a message on my cell. So, there are levels of phone support. I save the request for call backs to those that feel urgent to me. I know that he is only human, and maybe because of my own parenting I forgive him?

Is a good enough parent there to witness also? I mean if my teenage son is acting like a two year old do I let him keep acting that way? Or do I strengthen my resolve, treat him like the young man he is and ignore the acting out? If so, does that mean my boundaries weren't there to begin with? I don't believe so.

I think that developmentally appropriate behavior can be considered in the mix.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
MissCharlotte said:
He asked me to consider how we can manage the phone calls between session

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I really like how your T included you in finding a solution to this problem. I think it can help a lot with the pain if a "team approach" is taken to problem solving rather than experiencing the "top down" approach to healthcare. My PCP takes a team approach and it really works well for me. That is great your T includes you in decision making (although still not easy, I know).

I never called my T much but when I did, she usually steered the conversation to, "I'll see you next session and we'll talk about it then," sort of. I understood there wasn't a whole lot she could do on the phone or in my life away from her. As painful as it was, I liked that and the implied trust that I would continue to cope as I had been as the adult I was/am.

I like your thought, mouse, of T being there to "witness" our growth. It is that trust that I would continue to grow that I held to and leaned on the most I think.

I would like to clarify to all. This was not a post about phone calls.

My intent was to describe what children do when they are faced with insurmountable and unmanageable feelings (they dissociate, split,etc.) and how we face those feelings in adult life and recreate them in therapy, and in fact, in all sorts of situations. In therapy, it is okay and in fact desirable to face those feelings so we can experience them in a way we could not as children. In this way, we can integrate them, in an effort towards wholeness. Recently, in my case, the rupture surfaced surrounding phone calls. T and I worked through this together so that we are both now very comfortable with the structure of our relationship and I get what I need from him in order to continue working through very difficult feelings and emotion. But I DID experience the rage and anger of a young child. We both agreed that it was really old anger I was feeling.

Anyway, I just wanted to share these insights. You know, it's just not about the phone calls.

I've expressed lots of worry about him "getting sick of me" and suddenly changing the rules. One of the things my therapist says is that he adjusts based on a client's need. And he is a long-term, trauma therapist so he knows "how this goes." We are at almost 5 years and he has made only one change in how we connect. It wasn't a shift in boundaries or tightening down, he had other things going on in his personal life, so his schedule for appointment changed.

We talk a lot about how quickly (or not) I'm working through lots of past trauma and gaining trust. There are times that I really need more contact or ways to feel connected. And there are times when I need less of this. I'm fairly sure I shift more what I allow him to give me than he allows me to ask for.

I remember saying to him once, "Do you know how important you are? Do you know how much power you have to hurt me?" And he leaned forward and thought for a minute and said, "yes. Which is why I take our relationship and all the feelings in this room very, very seriously."

maybe... it isn't t's (or parents) place to decide on the level of dependence / independence that is or is not appropriate for their child.

In the same way that children know when they need to eat and when they don't
(Though maybe not WHAT they need to eat)
When they are cold and when they are warm

I'm fairly sure they know when they need support and when they need their space to figure things for themselves.

Of course t needs to have boundaries. Of course t might not be able to provide support when the person needs it.

One doesn't need to TRY and frustrate the clients needs, however.
The clients needs will be frustrated BECAUSE THAT IS THE NATURE OF LIFE.

'Optimal frustration' just happens. It shouldn't be intentionally forced on someone supposedly 'for their own good'. I don't think that is right...

Alex,

I think Winnicott would agree with you!

And as we think about both Ts and parents, I think it is important to remember that everything that happens is cocreated - and mutually regulated. And there is a certain "type" of person that chooses psychology as a career - either really curious or really humanistic and an awful lot of us are "fixers and savers." Projection and introjection go both ways.

So when a therapist decides "this isn't in your best interest" - they also need to own that it likely isn't in theirs either - meaning it is outside their comfort zone or more about themselves sometimes. It is just so complicated and one-size will never fit all.

Life is ever changing and change is always hard. And life changes for Ts as much or as often as it changes for clients. I think it is easier and perhaps slightly less painful if everyone acknowledges this, discusses it and approaches decisions as a team. Then the power is somewhat balanced.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Flowerb said:
So when a therapist decides "this isn't in your best interest" - they also need to own that it likely isn't in theirs either - meaning it is outside their comfort zone or more about themselves sometimes....

Life is ever changing and change is always hard. And life changes for Ts as much or as often as it changes for clients. I think it is easier and perhaps slightly less painful if everyone acknowledges this, discusses it and approaches decisions as a team. Then the power is somewhat balanced.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Flowerb, I really agree with this. If my T were going to change policy on something, I would want to know the true reason, and I would be very understanding if he said to me, "I just can't do X for my clients anymore. It is a hard time in my life, and right now I need to confine my therapy to the office," or something similar. But if he hid that reason and said "I am doing this for your own good" and it just didn't add up, I would be bewildered and feel a rupture due to the lack of truthfulness I might be able to perceive. Or I would feel OK if he laid it on the table and said, "look here's the problem, how can we solve it? I'm thinking you are ready for more independence. What do you think?" The team approach works well for me and helps build rapport, trust, etc. I think a lot of Ts do it this way, but I also think when it seems they don't, that sometimes it is poor communication that is hampering things, and that making sure the client really understands is key. (So many times I read here on PC, well maybe T thinks this or maybe he did that for this reason, or maybe maybe maybe.... It is very reassuring to have clarity, and it can take client courage to ask for it.) Good post, Flowerb.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
'm fairly sure I shift more what I allow him to give me than he allows me to ask for.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

We haven't shifted much at all and I am allowed to ask for anything. There are no boundaries surrounding what I am allowed to say or ask for. Of course, he is also allowed to respond as he wishes.

In the phone call issue, T was helping me understand that what I was asking for (sometimes) was a phone session. I was not aware of that as a possibility. And he DID express that his comfort level with calls changed. His timing sucked though.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I'm fairly sure they know when they need support and when they need their space to figure things for themselves.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

When a child has grown up with NO boundaries and NO support, they become insecure as adults. Sometimes this can manifest in a person who is too self reliant and then does not know how to deal with the availability of support or the boundaries surrounding it. They do not know when they need support because they do not know what support is. There is no lived experience to draw from.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
'Optimal frustration' just happens. It shouldn't be intentionally forced on someone supposedly 'for their own good'.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I agree. I know that this is NOT what T was doing in my case. I still call whenever I need support. We have clarified the varying levels of support that are available and how I can access them.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
MissCharlotte said:
[
We haven't shifted much at all and I am allowed to ask for anything. There are no boundaries surrounding what I am allowed to say or ask for. Of course, he is also allowed to respond as he wishes.

...His timing sucked though.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I hope you didn't feel criticized - not my intention at all. I was trying to express that even though I, like you, am aware that my T is open to me asking for or saying, anything - I find myself unable to trust this completely all the time. I have to learn that he can and will take care of himself - I don't have to do that. And I have to learn (I'm really working on this) that I won't get "punished" for wanting something or even daring to ask for it. But I might not get it. And not getting it isn't a punishment, even if it feels like it sometimes.

And timing is everything in therapy, isn't it? Those moments of meeting are amazing. And the near-misses are scary. And when we out right bang into each other - ouch, ouch, ouch.

I think your observer is very wise to know you have to get reengaged in order to heal. And I think the other parts have extremely legitimate reasons to feel scared and hesitant. We call it "working through" because it there is labor involved and healing because there are painful wounds. And we hold onto the hope that it is all worth it in the end.

Sunrise wrote: "When a child has grown up with NO boundaries and NO support, they become insecure as adults. Sometimes this can manifest in a person who is too self reliant and then does not know how to deal with the availability of support or the boundaries surrounding it. They do not know when they need support because they do not know what support is. There is no lived experience to draw from."

yup - this is where i often fall in. I mean, sometimes i know i am in pain and i don't want to be... but when t asks me what i need, i answer, "need?! why would i have needs? i've got everything under control." and then one of her eyebrows goes up.

Flowerb,

No, I wasn't criticized, just concerned when you used the word "allowed."

Yeah, the working through--I use that term all the time because it is work, hard work.

Yes, timing....I need to meet him today on an intimate level. I hope it can happen.

Kiya,

I wrote that. And yes, I do believe that when there is no lived experience, we have to look to other models and "learn" something just like learning math from a textbook. It is really hard to internalize this kind of book-learned behavior but I do believe it can be done, especially when we create our own lived experience in the here and now.

((((((((Kiya)))))))))

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Kiya said:
Sunrise wrote: "When a child has grown up with NO boundaries and NO support, they become insecure as adults. Sometimes this can manifest in a person who is too self reliant and then does not know how to deal with the availability of support or the boundaries surrounding it. They do not know when they need support because they do not know what support is. There is no lived experience to draw from."

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Kiya, that pearl of wisdom came from MissCharlotte! It paints a picture of me too. I had no support, I am overly self-reliant, I never learned to form boundaries, I don't know how to recognize or express my needs. Still working on all of that.... Good luck to you. Try in therapy to tell your T just one simple need. (Maybe something concrete, like, "it is too hot in here, can I open the window?") Practice in therapy, apply in real life?

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Alex said:
maybe... it isn't t's (or parents) place to decide on the level of dependence / independence that is or is not appropriate for their child.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I liked Alex's statement. I think this is what my T is doing with me. She probably has some clear cut boundary but I haven't directly challenged any yet. I am also overly self-reliant and sometime event think that I am imposing on her just by scheduling a session. We have only had short discussions about boundaries when I have had the guts to ask what the rules are. She is basically letting me set the rules for our interaction and I guess she has been comfortable accommodating me. I have alway struggled with contacting her outside of sessions. The phone is not an option for me. This week although me head is spinning out of control a bit, I am determined not to write her. I am uncomfortable with wanting to write stuff all the time and do not like feeling needy or dependent on others. These feeling are MINE not hers so I've got to deal with them. The "no writing" rule change was imposed by me not her.

I think in my particular case, part of my T is learning how to deal with the vague and complex rules that governing relationships. I think I need to ask for things and initiate dialogs. Unfortunately, this makes therapy very uncomfortable for me, but hopefully therapeutic in the end.