[Kiya]

Last night's session ended up being about boundaries. T determined that I had had quite enough going on so we didn't need to press things. So instead I told her about the more mundane life at the Kiya house and she called me on my boundaries - which also had the effect of making me shut up for the rest of the hour. T reminded me again that I come from a household of no boundaries. T started listing all the ways ppl create boundaries and i could hear myself thinking "Yeah, but those aren't REAL boundaries!!! So when I told t that -that opened a whole new can of worms.
Now i am more confused than ever.

[phoenix7]

HI Kiya,

That sounds very confusing, I find boundaries impossible they always seem to be moving and not telling me! - I used to keep people so far away that I never had trouble with their boundaries because they never got past mine! - One T took down my boundaries and now I have no idea what Im doing - so I second third and fourth guess myself or do nothing rather than say or do something that would step over someones boundaries. Myabe discussing your confusion with your T would help clear things up?

P7

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Kiya

T started listing all the ways ppl create boundaries and i could hear myself thinking "Yeah, but those aren't REAL boundaries!!!

I'm really interested in boundaries since I am not very good at setting them, so I think I could learn something from what you wrote--can you say more? What are some of the ways your T listed that people create boundaries? And what did you mean when you said they weren't real? What are real boundaries to you?

[nowheretorun]

hi Kiya, Phoenix, and Sunrise

im not too sure if i can help any but i was reading and saw this so if any of this helps, im glad..

setting boundaries depends on what we want from our relationship.. for example, if we want an improved work relationship, we focus on factors related to effective production and harmony with our co-workers.. we would define our own needs first by spending time in thought about our personal goals for ourselves, always mindful that our own goals are not healthy if they infringe on others goals

by keeping focus on a totally win/win scenario, we can imagine some connecting factors that that bind our own sense of well being to those of any others involved...

with a whole health approach to our common situation, we can combine individul wants/needs in mutually satisfactory ways

communication is the beginning after we have determined our personal needs/wants

related couples can succeed in a caring and sharing atmosphere, after all, these are common goals we share!

[Kiya]

"communication is the beginning after we have determined our personal needs/wants"

Damn... abcd fghijklmnop you can see th key that is not working wll. grat. Wll, what will i do without that lttr???? >=(

Meh... i wantd to say that myabe this is whr w ar running into troubl - if w don't know our needs or wants.... than we can't really fill them. ok i can get an e if i hit the button like 7 times. grrrrrrrrrr.
Sunrise, i was talking about being at home with mom.... mom already infringes on my boundaries ALL the time. If I comment on it or make waves, she laughs at me or ridicules me.
So, i got a new vacuum because our house was clearly "sent for and never made it" and have been vacuuming everything i can reach - dust, cobwebs, you name it... well, with mom's permission, i entered her room *my e key is working in case you were wondering* and started vacuuming just the main walkway - everything else is incased in junk. Then i saw how much dust was on her window seals and all over and wanted to show her the attachements and get all that dust up - so i did. Meanwhile she's lok OK you're done. Leave. No more. but said it kinda laughing because it was funny that i all of a sudden want to vacuum and she won't unless everything else is PERFECT - which will *never* happen.
This is where T stopped me. "You didn't leave when your mom told you to leave". F***. I mean, really - it was joking around. T said no - you have no boundaries either. *rolls eyes*. you KNOW when someone is joking with you - mom was TOTALLY joking with me. This is where i shut up for the rest of the night. Well, mostly. I did recognize and acknowledge at this point that when I set a boundary, I do not laugh about it. And mom laughs right over it and steps beyond it. So T saw that this had really upset me (as did her telling me I have no boundaries, becuase really I am more likely to do nothing rather than walk over someones' boundaries).

T also reminded me that I am not ok with her and my other dr's (all at the same clinic) talking and because of that I said "I feel like I have no boundaries here". So t starts naming off boundaries, saying "we use them from the time we walk into a room". She listed *how close you stand to someone, *if you talk to them, *where you sit in the lobby, *if you acknowledge someone or not, *if you make it obvious that you are going to read your book instead, ... she listed boundaries with her i can have; how close she sits to me to look at art or talk to me, or sit on the couch with me or have a hug or not...
I am not remembering others. This is where my head was saying "Yeah, but those aren't REAL boundaries!!!" I mean - those to me are not boundaries, they are ... i dunno... personal issues maybe. So then we had to talk about WHY i don't think those are real. *sigh*. And on those things, i follow what others do; if some one talks to me, i talk to them. If someone stands near me, i will stand near them. However, if I don't like them, i will walk away. ("Kiya, this is a very clear boundary"). Hmmm. To me it is just "I don't like you, go away." And often those people won't take the hint and come closer. "Kiya, then you have to make more of a boundary statement and get rude - because they are being rude." Totally confused.

[MissCharlotte]

Kiya,

This is so interesting because I grew up in a household with NO boundaries and have both a hard time setting them and honoring them as well. It is hard work, recognizing the difference between someone's boundaries and and a personal insult. I thought I was pretty good at boundaries until I started therapy. But my sibs, well, they are really awful at it, especially my youngest sister who tramples my boundaries continuously.

Good work.

[phoenix7]

I see why you're confused Kia I would have said they were personal space issues - how close you stand to someone or if you feel like communicating or not if you pick up a book and start reading when sitting with someone and if you walk off when someone is talking to you I would have said that was a manners issue - guess I'm wrong on all counts! Maybe thats why I am so crap at it!

Humour is a funny thing (no pun intended!) I often use humour to get people to back off - for example people were going for a night out at work and they asked if I wanted to go - and I said sorry getting my cats claws painted they just laughed and I didnt have to say - sorry cant be in a group of more than a few people or i get panicky and want to run away - so I guess your T may have a point - having said that you know you're mum better than they do and you know when she is joking or not.

Take Care P7

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by MissCharlotte

I thought I was pretty good at boundaries until I started therapy.

Yup - same here... now I'm just confused, sort of hurt, sort of feeling like setting boundaries is just plain rude.

Originally Posted by phoenix7

I would have said they were personal space issues

yeah, exactly. Sort of like my walking out of the meditation group tonight when i started having a panic attack and then a flashback. I suppose t would say I set a very big boundary (as I suppose was my putting my bag and coat on the loveseat next to me?? - no one sit near me). This was the first time I went to the meditation group (with the group t from the clinic) and the last.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by MissCharlotte

I thought I was pretty good at boundaries until I started therapy.

I had never heard of boundaries until I started therapy with my current T. Even my first T never mentioned them. I never set any at all in my marriage. Or perhaps very early on in the relationship, they got trampled on and obliterated and I didn't stand firm. I don't know. I am not good at boundaries. I think I didn't learn how to have them when I was a child. The other thing I didn't learn until therapy is that you should tell people your needs. That never occurred to me. I didn't realize I had needs and would never tell anyone a need! That would be totally, totally stupid in my book--just opening myself up for hurt and rejection. What is so very puzzling to me is that some people just seem to know automatically how to set boundaries and tell people their needs. Where do they learn that? Why is it not hard for them? Not everyone goes to therapy to learn this stuff, some people just seem to know.

Kiya, that sounds like a hard session. I wasn't quite sure about your T's point. Was she trying to tell you that you had not been respectful of your mother's boundaries? And you felt you were, that your mom was just joking around?

Kiya, what kind of boundaries do you consider real?

[SpottedOwl]

(((Kiya)))

Originally Posted by Kiya

"communication is the beginning after we have determined our personal needs/wants"

... myabe this is whr w ar running into troubl - if w don't know our needs or wants.... than we can't really fill them.

Bingo! I think you've got it.
It can be really hard to focus on what we need, or heck, figure out what we need.

I think what the T's are trying to explain about boundaries may be 'correct', but I'm not sure it is really useful to you. Let me explain with an analogy...

Scenario number 1:
Lets say we are all eating together. There is a piece of apple pie for each of us. I just had a meal so I am not sure if I am still hungry. If someone else at the table tried to take my piece, I would probably let them. (weak boundaries)

Scenario number 2:
We are all eating together, and there is a piece of apple pie for each of us. This time I *know* I am still hungry. Someone else tries to take my piece...I will probably say, 'sorry, this is mine'. (firm boundaries)

If I know I need to eat more, it is much easier to stand up for what I know I need. Whereas if I'm not sure if I'm hungry or not, it will be much easier for someone to take my share.

Ok, yes, this could all be talked about in terms of boundaries, but perhaps it would make more sense to talk about it in terms of what you need. IMHO, once you know what you need, the boundaries take care of themselves.

T also reminded me that I am not ok with her and my other dr's (all at the same clinic) talking and because of that I said "I feel like I have no boundaries here".

I'm sorry T responded to you like that, and good for you for speaking up for yourself! The fact that you are uncomfortable with the situation is important, because it bothers you for a reason.

It worries me that so many psychological terms are being used...maybe that is useful for the Drs when they talk, but it does not seem to be useful to you. Maybe that is part of why you are not ok with it??

Many warm thoughts for all of you

I hadn't thought of what I spoke about with T last session until I read your post. Interestingly, I think we also talked about boundaries but just didn't use the word. I was talking about how people in my family constantly pressure me. For example, if my husband doesn't come over with me to dinner one holiday, they constantly ask, "Where is H? Did I do something to upset him?" and keep going on and on. I finally said, I don't know, ask him! They didn't get the message. Also, I was pressured to join all family events to keep the peace, and if I didn't people were angry at me. T told me that I needed to teach people how to treat me (since they are walking all over me). I was kind of perturbed and asked why I have to change and be assertive when it doesn't come naturally to me. Why can't these people just treat me with respect without me asking it of them? It sounds like we are all learning rule of which we were unaware. It's strange being so old and figuring out, hey, I had no idea other people thought/did this. I guess maybe we all are coming out of the cave we've been living in. The rules out here are very strange. I think we ought to ban together and change them. Rule number one: T's job is to be a surrogate parent. There. Problem Solved. ((((Kiya))))
After we all finish therapy, we're going to be @#$@ches, lol. Watch out, here we come!

[little*rhino]

kiya... maybe you can talk to t about coming up with a different term that better fits what she means? It seems that everyone has trouble with a term that has become a common term and that has gotten terribly distorted. My T talks about "sense of self" a lot.. and i am thinking our big problem is that what he is talking about is different than my own idea of the term, but the mismatch isn't always obvious....

idk.. just a thought.. just your comment about "not real" boundaries... made me think. Did you tell her what "real" ones were? How are they different?

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by Sunrise

some people just seem to know automatically how to set boundaries and tell people their needs. Not everyone goes to therapy to learn this stuff, some people just seem to know.

Yeah - like T. I don't get it either. The way she talked she has solid boundaries. But she already told me she has the same history as I do... so maybe she learned it in therapy too?

Kiya, I wasn't quite sure about your T's point. Was she trying to tell you that you had not been respectful of your mother's boundaries? And you felt you were, that your mom was just joking around?

i felt like she was telling me i was not respecting mom's bondaries - then that i didn't have any... ouch. I explained it was a joke, but she then pointed out that that is part of the problem - all boundaries in this house are a joke. T says boundaries are to be negotioated. So are they real or not?

Kiya, what kind of boundaries do you consider real?

well, the main one that comes to mind would be that I don't want t and md and the other drs and counselors all talking together about me. *sigh*. That one is real and BIG. And the one i can't have.

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by SpottedOwl

It worries me that so many psychological terms are being used...maybe that is useful for the Drs when they talk, but it does not seem to be useful to you. Maybe that is part of why you are not ok with it??

I dunno anymore... I mean, "boundaries" isn't a psych term, ja? I just don't see why they work in her favor and not in mine. I guess that is why i am so grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr about it.
I do trust her more than most ppl and she does seem to be there often for me.... she even called me tonight after i left her a message about my panic attack and flashback.
I just don't see the difference between my needs and her needs surrounding me. I would prefer T to not confer about me with others. T needs to confer with all the other ppl who work with me. But it is ok for her to have what she wants and not what I want. But I can have other things that are not as important to me. Yet i guess i have to trust that she knows what is best for me?

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by Soliaree

After we all finish therapy, we're going to be @#$@ches, lol. Watch out, here we come!

DUDE! NO JOKE! That was basically what I was thinking when T (a PsyD/ PMHNP/ founder of the clinic/ clinical director/ flies all over setting up other clinics and doing good deeds WORLDY) told me she gets on planes and doesn't want to talk to people and when someone asks her where's she's going before they even take off, she pulls out her book and turns her shoulder to the person!!! I was shocked. And this is a BOUNDARY?! Rrrrrrow!!!! Interesting to see the various sides of our T's that we never see otherwise. She probably gives some nice answer first before turning her back... i hope. She said "I don't want to have to say "I don't want to talk to you", but if they don't get the hint of our social cues, then they are being rude." *kiya picks jaw off floor*. I told her that I felt like I'd just landed on Mars -I was so shocked.
Soli - sorry things are so tough with your fam - I don't know why we have to get so abrupt with people - i guess they just aren't getting those "social cues".

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by Candika

...and i am thinking our big problem is that what he is talking about is different than my own idea of the term, but the mismatch isn't always obvious....

I do think sometimes t and i are not speaking the same language. @_@ sometimes we sit and frown at each other... and then she gives in and explains more =) and more... and

...just your comment about "not real" boundaries... made me think. Did you tell her what "real" ones were? How are they different?

i seem to recall her asking me so what are REAL boundaries? and i choked up! I couldn't say "STOPPING YOU TALKING TO OTHER DRS ABOUT ME!!!!" So I said ...."i dunno - important things!"

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by Candika

...and i am thinking our big problem is that what he is talking about is different than my own idea of the term, but the mismatch isn't always obvious....

I do think sometimes t and i are not speaking the same language. @_@ sometimes we sit and frown at each other... and then she gives in and explains more =) and more... and

...just your comment about "not real" boundaries... made me think. Did you tell her what "real" ones were? How are they different?

i seem to recall her asking me so what are REAL boundaries? and i choked up! I couldn't say "STOPPING YOU TALKING TO OTHER DRS ABOUT ME!!!!" So I said ...."i dunno - important things!"

[Mouse_]

Originally Posted by Kiya

DUDE! NO JOKE! That was basically what I was thinking when T (a PsyD/ PMHNP/ founder of the clinic/ clinical director/ flies all over setting up other clinics and doing good deeds WORLDY) told me she gets on planes and doesn't want to talk to people and when someone asks her where's she's going before they even take off, she pulls out her book and turns her shoulder to the person!!! I was shocked. And this is a BOUNDARY?! Rrrrrrow!!!! ".

No thats not a boundary, thats a wall, boundaries are not walls...

[nowheretorun]

Hi Kiya and all, ive been following along as much as i can and i hope my thoughts arent intruding

there seems to be agreement that we dont want our feelings or personal spaces trampled on... thats a good place to start and you are taking into account that you dont find the rudeness factors attractive.... that makes me smile too cause i feel the same way when i am treated rudely, no fun!

ok, no trampling and no rudeness... there you are tho, in a shared space and someone starts talking... Kiya you said you would respond but if didnt like the person would move away... thats good and fine too... you get to choose when to connect with others and you never need to if you feel unsafe..

what are the feelings when the person you are not really interested in/dont want to talk to starts talking and you decide to give the experience some time so you can learn more about your feelings?

is it fear? does the other person bore and not interest you? do you feel inadequate because there is no connection developing ? maybe you fear that this inability is going to have a large and lasting impact on your future(it is already impacting the present) ... maybe you fear you'll never grow out of it.... it takes time but you can first build the inner trust you need to assert yourself...

decide what level of kindness you would like to receive in life and assert that same amount towards others... grant them all the same rights that you grant yourself.. connecting is a two way relationship.... dont give less than you want to receive, but dont expect more than another can give...

dont know if this helps, i'll keep reading and hope you find your solutions!

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by Mouse_

No thats not a boundary, thats a wall, boundaries are not walls...

You know - this brings up not only a good point, but a realization. T says boundaries are negotionable (i can't even spell it) and yet, it seems her boundaries are walls. But for me, i can barely make any boundaries with her, and those that i really care about are not negotiable - they infringe upon her walls.

[Mouse_]

Well just becuase a therapist is a therapist, that doesn't automatically mean they have their act together...becareful out there, the theraputic world is a dangerous place as well as a wonderful place!!! perhaps you could say when you feel a boundary is a wall,, that would be a beginning on excercising your boundaries??? perhaps.

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by nowheretorun

what are the feelings when the person you are not really interested in/dont want to talk to starts talking and you decide to give the experience some time so you can learn more about your feelings?

for me it is usually feeling unsafe. perhaps this particular circumstance comes up most the time with others specifically because i fear it (in the genre of attracting that which we have to work on most) but I find that i am a magnate for people who are attracted to me and I don't want to be with. I can't shake them! like fleas to a dog. Random people approach me in the street (or did when I went out more), on the bus, in public places, even in the clinic. i try all the basics; nod, smile, get a book. Nod smile, go to a different room. See them in advance and hide... that one doesn't do so many favors for me (once ended me up in a sling - long story, don't ask - just remember avoidance isn't always good). I don't want to be the mean gal and say "Look! Don't you get it yet?! I don't want to talk to you, see you , be nice to you.... I want you to leave me alone!!!!!" I'm just not like that. But i'm also really tired of being sought. I suppose the flip side is that I have a hard time getting the courage to talk to those people I do want to be around. I feel that I am a burden and a loser and i'd be doing them a favor by leaving. I'm not looking for an intimate relationship - just friends (and no "benefits").
yeah>?

[phoenix7]

I think spottedowl may have something - I think boundaries are interlinked with needs and as most of us are sooooooooo bad at getting our needs met we have trouble with boundaries -

Maybe boundaries are the border between what we need from others and what they need from us? meeting somewhere in the middle when they are right?.........

Or am I just confusing matters further?? P7

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Soliaree

Rule number one: T's job is to be a surrogate parent. There. Problem Solved.

But. What if T does not do what she oughten? What if all those other people do not obey our wishes? Then what?

[MissCharlotte]

Maybe boundaries are the border between what we need from others and what they need from us?

This feels right. Thanks!