[Zelev]

"In the past, I seem to have been a NPD magnet..." Seeker1950 replied to a post about Facebook NPDs with that and I had like an epiphany. This has been my experience ALL MY LIFE!

Every guy I have ever dated was extremely selfish or narcissistic. I have always been attractive to so called "confident" guys. My relationships with female friends are few because I don't trust them. (Probably lot to do with the relationship with my NPD mom)

I was just wondering what exactly does one do that lets a narcissist know that you're an easy target? How did you stop doing what ever it was that attracts them?

[seeker1950]

Z, I didn't remember saying that, but it is true.

So, how do they zero in on us?

I've reached an age and stage in life where I have a lot of perspective, often uncomfortable to realize, about my own behaviors....
First of all, I had very low (to none) self-esteem. When I met a man, I was always in the accommodating mode. I could see myself doing it, but I couldn't stop it. My own needs were unmet, but I continued, whereas an emotionally healthy woman would have stopped! The things I put up with for the sake of maintaining a relationship were outrageous...now I see it!... but at the time it seemed "normal" in order to maintain.

I so wish I had had this insight (the lightbulb coming on) when I was much younger. I wish this for you! You do not, repeat, NOT, have to be with anyone who does not show you total respect and kindness. If any little voice in your head shows a red flag, do not ignore it! Your inner voice is very VERY important. I ignored my inner voice for many many years.

I would also suggest, no matter what the expectations of a potential partner has!!!! regarding intimacy, to take a long time to be friends, to get to know his values, his attitudes toward you. Once you embark into an intimate relationship, judgment goes out the window. Let the man do the work! I did ALL the work in the unfortunate experiences I had, and now regret it!

Love and good hopes for you!
Patty

Editing: I just want to add here that the "perspective" I mentioned comes from realizing that having been raised by a mother who was narcissitic, my own needs were nonexistent. I was never allowed to express opinions, emotions, or objections. This model, I carried into my adult life with men who behaved the same way. I felt this was normal.

[Zelev]

That so true. I for me the narcissist is like a shiny new thing and I'm blinded by the flash. I hear that voice but I don't want to listen because I don't want to believe it I guess. I think I judge myself by how that person sees me. If they think I'm great then I must be okay. Another thing is that I'm never quite sure how to react. I tend to hold things in and by the time I get mad enough to say something it's too much emotion

I double-checked and found the post. Of course, the quote is only a small portion of what you said but that part really spoke to me. http://forums.psychcentral.com/showp...5&postcount=14

[V_Australia]

I don't know how much sympathy there is here, but N's are sick people too...that is why they have a help group for people who suffer from that disorder. Perhaps their disorder may even be traceable to a malfunction in the brain that one day medication may help. Believe it or not, some N's can feel remorse and pain at their own inability to stop their behaviour. Do you talk about a depressed person and call him a vampire, etc. and tell him or her to just pull out of it, that they are really just seeking sympathy, and are bastards for behaving the way they do? I don't think so.
Do you want N's to say sorry? Even more to the point, to feel sorry?
It is the tragedy of the N condition that it has repercussions into other people's lives that makes it difficult if not imposssible to get sympathy, but it is precisely the N's inabiltiy to recognise that the he or she is causing those repercussions (empathy challenged) that makes this such a hateful condition. It all seems normal to them...till they start reading blogs.
Michah suggested,among other things, that there is a caregiver support group.

[NuckingFutz]

Google the words "daughters of narcissists" and you will find a support website right up your alley. Two observations...you answered your own question as to why you attract N's...low self esteem. The other observation was your user name...what happens when you flip over a magnate? You push them together and they stay apart. I bet if you worked really hard on your self esteem, you will have flipped in a good way. It is a work in progress so be patient with your self. And check out that website. I think it will really help.

You make a good point, V_Australia. Thanks.

[seeker1950]

Golly gee! I've offended a narcissist!

[NuckingFutz]

And this surprises you how?

[jenkins09]

Originally Posted by V_Australia

I don't know how much sympathy there is here, but N's are sick people too...that is why they have a help group for people who suffer from that disorder. Perhaps their disorder may even be traceable to a malfunction in the brain that one day medication may help. Believe it or not, some N's can feel remorse and pain at their own inability to stop their behaviour. Do you talk about a depressed person and call him a vampire, etc. and tell him or her to just pull out of it, that they are really just seeking sympathy, and are bastards for behaving the way they do? I don't think so.
Do you want N's to say sorry? Even more to the point, to feel sorry?
It is the tragedy of the N condition that it has repercussions into other people's lives that makes it difficult if not imposssible to get sympathy, but it is precisely the N's inabiltiy to recognise that the he or she is causing those repercussions (empathy challenged) that makes this such a hateful condition. It all seems normal to them...till they start reading blogs.
Michah suggested,among other things, that there is a caregiver support group.

That is the key to all of us getting healthier and eliminating ineffective behavior from our lives. The problem lies with N that dont see that their behavior is damaging. I dont understand why you are getting so agitated by this post. Were you diagnosed with NPD? We all have N traits to some degree, at least you know it.

[Zelev]

I appreciate the post by V_Australia BUT if N's understand they have a problem and are working on it that's one thing but to deliberately manipulate and cause someone else distress to make yourself feel superior that's something else entirely different. Just because you don't have the ability to care how they feel about it. Does not make it okay.

Similar things have been said about BPD on here in the past and I took offence as I am.....

[Zelev]

Originally Posted by Zelev

I appreciate the post by V_Australia BUT if N's understand they have a problem and are working on it that's one thing but to deliberately manipulate and cause someone else distress to make yourself feel superior that's something else entirely different. Just because you don't have the ability to care how they feel about it. Does not make it okay.

Additional info regarding my post: Let me clarify, I'm trying to understand how an NPD decides who is not up to par so I can stop sending out that signal. I'm NOT saying that someone who has NPD is somehow less of a person. Just that the end result of their actions is not okay. How is that offensive?

[jenkins09]

I will share with you what I have read and what my T has shared with me. "Like attracts like." We all have N traits, some just more extreme than others. A great book to read is "Trapped in the mirror."

It is a well written book about N and how our caregivers make us this way. It all starts during the formative years and just continues, generation to generation until someone stops the cycle.

This type of personality is attracted to you, but you are also attracted to them. Do some introspection and see what comes out..maybe low self-esteem, co-dependant behavior..etc.

[garden]

Zelev, I am reading with interest. I too wonder why people believe that a certain condition or trait makes them a target. What about self control for those people inflicting the harm/distress! Why do something ugly just because you can?!?!?! On the other hand, it makes me wonder why others sit and watch the behavior of, I'll use the term bullies. Low self esteem doesn't cry out "hit or belittle me, I'm stupid." Confident people aren't always confident and seem to seek some strange bed fellows and must, must have someone at their side to carry out a task. I applaud you for seeking a solution.

[seeker1950]

Apologies to those I"ve offended in my harsh assessment of NPD. My own experience has biased me in lacking sympathy for the condition. I did look at the website for daughters of narcissistic mothers, and much of it rings true, though I would conclude my own mother was marginal in this description.
I'm certain, at this stage of my life, having some clarity and perspective, that my upbringing made me predisposed to be the narcissist's "supply" for praise and validation, while ignoring my own needs. When the lightbulb came on, after a really traumatic relationship with a man who fits the textbook definition of narcissism, I started doing research, which lasted many years, during which I did lots of reading and research. My jaded perception is that the N is very skilled at mimicing normal behavior and reactions, while manipulating people to support their needs. In saying this, I do apologize to V_Australia if, in fact, you are making progress with this condition (though I question whether you are true narcissist).
Here is the definition of what my experience has taught me to be the narcissist:
Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) Definition

Written by Sam Vaknin Nov 02, 2008 A + A - RESET What is Narcissism?
A pattern of traits and behaviors which signify infatuation and obsession with one's self to the exclusion of all others and the egotistic and ruthless pursuit of one's gratification, dominance and ambition.
Most narcissists (75%) are men.
NPD is one of a "family" of personality disorders (formerly known as "Cluster B").
No IframesOther members: Borderline PD, Antisocial PD and Histrionic PD.
NPD is often diagnosed with other mental health disorders ("co-morbidity") - or with substance abuse, or impulsive and reckless behaviors ("dual diagnosis").
NPD is new (1980) mental health category in the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual (DSM).
There is only scant research regarding narcissism. But what there is has not demonstrated any ethnic, social, cultural, economic, genetic, or professional predilection to NPD.
It is estimated that 0.7-1% of the general population suffer from NPD.
Pathological narcissism was first described in detail by Freud. Other major contributors are: Klein, Horney, Kohut, Kernberg, Millon, Roningstam, Gunderson, Hare.
The onset of narcissism is in infancy, childhood and early adolescence. It is commonly attributed to childhood abuse and trauma inflicted by parents, authority figures, or even peers.
There is a whole range of narcissistic reactions - from the mild, reactive and transient to the permanent personality disorder.
Narcissists are either "Cerebral" (derive their narcissistic supply from their intelligence or academic achievements) - or "Somatic" (derive their narcissistic supply from their physique, exercise, physical or sexual prowess and "conquests").
Narcissists are either "Classic" - see definition below - or they are "Compensatory", or "Inverted" - see definitions here: "The Inverted Narcissist".
NPD is treated in talk therapy (psychodynamic or cognitive-behavioral). The prognosis for an adult narcissist is poor, though his adaptation to life and to others can improve with treatment. Medication is applied to side-effects and behaviors (such as mood or affect disorders and obsession-compulsion) - usually with some success.
Please read CAREFULLY!
The text in italics is NOT based on the Diagnostics and Statistics Manual, Fourth Edition-Text Revision (2000).
The text in italics IS based on "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited", fourth, revised, printing (2003)

An all-pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behaviour), need for admiration or adulation and lack of empathy, usuallybeginning by early adulthood and present in various contexts. Five (or more) of the following criteria must be met:

• Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

• Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion

• Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions)

• Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply)

• Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favorable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations

• Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends

• Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others

• Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her

• Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted

Some of the language in the criteria above is based on or summarized from:
American Psychiatric Association. (2000). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, fourth edition, Text Revision (DSM IV-TR). Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Association.
The text in italics is based on:
Sam Vaknin. (2003). Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited, fourth, revised, printing. Prague and Skopje: Narcissus Publication.
For the exact language of the DSM IV criteria - please refer to the manual itself !!!
next: Diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
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Harry Croft, MD (Psychiatrist)
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This seems to have come from Sam Vaknin, who is controversial in his writings and opinions, but which rings true for what I experienced.

I also want to add, since someone mentioned, that "like attacts like," does not ring true for me. The N wants constant praise, validation, and support from someone who is submissive and willing to offer "supply." I had to have some hard knocks to realize that I was doing this, repeatedly. Happy to say I no longer engage in this behavior.
Patty

[jenkins09]

Patty,

How were you able to stop engaging in the ineffective behavior with the N in your life?
I will take what you said a step further. They will take any attention they can get, be it positive or negative. If they can get you to engage in an argument that feeds that bottom-less hole of the N supply.

It took about a year of T for me to be able to remove myself from a very abusive relationship with my wife who was diagnosed NPD. When I said "Like attracts like" I was refering to myself, when I struggled with low self-esteem. Most N have very low self-esteem and that is what I was talking about. Does that make sense?

I hope the OP is doing much better today.

[seeker1950]

Jenkins, I'll be honest here, though I'm not very proud of it...I stopped searching for a partner, stopped dating, stopped exposing myself to social situations in which I might meet a perspective partner. Sad to admit, but I'm older, age 59 now, and it has taken me 4 years since my last experience to do this psychological and emotional inventory and come to the realizations of what I was doing. AND, I really was doing it (and had done it all my life!).
Yes, I've isolated myself in this respect, but I have peace knowing my patterns and the perspective and wisdom of age.

Originally Posted by seeker1950

This seems to have come from Sam Vaknin, who is controversial in his writings and opinions, but which rings true for what I experienced.

I just want to note that, if you choose to read the teachings of Mr. Sam Vaknin, be wary. We, at another forum, just had a discussion about how manipulative and harmful his "teachings" really are.

I at one time was diagnosed as a narcissist. I take full responsibility for my actions, no matter what the current diagnosis is. Hurting people is never okay. That fact does not make me any less human or less entitled to the support and respect of the Community.

[Zelev]

I do agree with jenkins09 that we are all N's to some degree. At first I couldn't see that because most of the stuff I read will discusses NPD from the N's point of view. "Why N's behave they way that the do and how others are affected by what Ns do."

I found this article by Alan Rappoport Co-Narcissism: How We Accommodate To Narcissistic Parents. I read this article several times thinking about this idea of "co-narcissism". Rappoport says "All of us are narcissistic, and co-narcissistic, to varying degrees. When our self-esteem varies in relation to how others think and feel about us, we are experiencing a narcissistic vulnerability."

He's saying the N and the Co-N (those affected by parents w/NPD) both suffer from low self-esteem but just cope with it in different ways. To take it a bit further, just like the N needs an "audience", maybe the co-N needs a "star".

I have a history of childhood abuse so I do admit to feeling inherently damaged. I spend an obsessive amount of my day putting up a facade that I have everything under control and I am just as normal as everybody else. I sacrifice what I want searching for praise and approval and then get frustrated and angry because I feel people don't appreciate what I've done for them. I do this regardless of whether I feel you like me or not. Many times, the more I think you dislike me; the harder I will try to get your approval. From what I've read, the "sacrificing part", would make me perfect for an N.

So now I'm wondering if trying to make myself "the martyr" be considered a narcissistic trait? I think I do this more to make myself feel good than to help.

[seeker1950]

Myers, you are correct about Sam Vaknin. I was incorrect, probably, in posting that article because of the man's controversy, however, the descriptions fit the person it took me so long to recover from.

And, as Zelev has so insightfully described in her own behavior -- the need to please has been a big part of mine as well, along with a history of abuse at the hands of my mother, physically (daily) and emotionally. ( Gosh, I hate writing that! )

Also, what Zelev said in this passage applies to me as well:
I spend an obsessive amount of my day putting up a facade that I have everything under control and I am just as normal as everybody else. I sacrifice what I want searching for praise and approval and then get frustrated and angry because I feel people don't appreciate what I've done for them. I do this regardless of whether I feel you like me or not. Many times, the more I think you dislike me; the harder I will try to get your approval. From what I've read, the "sacrificing part", would make me perfect for an N.

I have to say, Zelev, this shows remarkable insight into my own behavior as well. I'm going to commend and congratulate you on being so far ahead of the game (than I was!) at your age.

Patty

Originally Posted by Zelev

I was just wondering what exactly does one do that lets a narcissist know that you're an easy target? How did you stop doing what ever it was that attracts them?

I should have addressed the actual question in my earlier post, but I guess I was preoccupied with discrediting Vaknin...

Narcissists generally look for people who wear their empathy on their sleeves and whose vulnerabilities are easily seen. The narcissist can recognize these types of people by how they respond to the narcissist's behavior. It's not a bad thing to be empathic or have some insecurities. The trick is to be guarded on who you give that care to, and who you allow to see your insecurities. Don't be so guarded that you push everyone away to protect yourself, but don't buy into every bs story, either. Happy medium...

Narcissists want to be seen as special. They want to be idolized and adored. So, to keep their ill-intentions at bay, treat them like everyone else.

And, I know there are narcissists that are aware of their behavior and are actively trying to fix it. Kudos to them. I'm strictly talking about the narcissists that do have ill-intentions.

Anyway, I hope I helped a little. For most predatory types, the victim-seeking process is not a conscious effort. I don't have a clear knowledge of why I'm attracted to certain people, so it's hard to describe.

[seeker1950]

Originally Posted by Myers

I should have addressed the actual question in my earlier post, but I guess I was preoccupied with discrediting Vaknin...

Originally Posted by Myers

Narcissists generally look for people who wear their empathy on their sleeves and whose vulnerabilities are easily seen. The narcissist can recognize these types of people by how they respond to the narcissist's behavior. It's not a bad thing to be empathic or have some insecurities. The trick is to be guarded on who you give that care to, and who you allow to see your insecurities. Don't be so guarded that you push everyone away to protect yourself, but don't buy into every bs story, either. Happy medium...

Narcissists want to be seen as special. They want to be idolized and adored. So, to keep their ill-intentions at bay, treat them like everyone else.

And, I know there are narcissists that are aware of their behavior and are actively trying to fix it. Kudos to them. I'm strictly talking about the narcissists that do have ill-intentions.

Anyway, I hope I helped a little. For most predatory types, the victim-seeking process is not a conscious effort. I don't have a clear knowledge of why I'm attracted to certain people, so it's hard to describe.

Well, my gosh, Myers, thank you for the intelligent and insightful reply.
You've described me exactly as someone who "wears their empathy and vulnerability on their sleeves." At the same time, because of your posts, I've recognized some N behaviors within myself, or at least some of the things which made me predisposed to the relationships I've encountered.
Great breakthroughs here.
Thanks!
Patty

[garden]

Zelev. Is it appreciation for task you're really seeking? What about appreciation for YOU? I believe we all have self esteem but react differently according to background/teachings. We all have it in us to be dominate or submissive; however, it seems some of us have not experienced maintaining a middle ground. The approval is a method of saying "no" to an opinion where the "no" has to be accepted. So not sure what it brings you. I appreciate that you've reached out and only hope that this response will help in someway.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by Zelev

I'm trying to understand how an NPD decides who is not up to par so I can stop sending out that signal. I'm NOT saying that someone who has NPD is somehow less of a person.

I think those two sentences together are important. You are making yourself less of a person by thinking there is some "signal". There is no black and white NPD, for starters and trying to simplify/flip a switch and have magic happen is making everyone less of a person because people are not that simple!

With any person, any relationship, you have to consider yourself first. You have to work on your own balance, that's the only way you won't tip over. Concentrating on what the other person is/does is like trying to make the waves calmer so you won't be as likely to tip over.

Why don't you like people you feel are NPD's? Because they're "selfish"? If you cared about yourself and were "selfish" with yourself, you wouldn't be attractive to them. Don't do something to please someone else; only do things that please yourself! You come first always, because it's your life. One can't get or fit in someone else's life; there's no room; they're in there! Same happens with our life; that's why we get uncomfortable, that's what discomfort is for. Listen to the discomfort. Feeling resentful? There's probably a reason :-) Feeling good? Feeling angry? Feeling alone? Feeling sad? Feeling excited, curious, anxious? Listen to what you are feeling and follow it back to what is taking place/where it's coming from and then decide what you want to do with the knowledge.

There's nothing wrong with being friends, talking to, loving, etc. a person you feel are NPD. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water; all that glitters is gold, glass glitters so glass is gold is an easy to see error but deciding all "charming" men are NPD is the same error. You can't know what another person is like until you truly get to know them. If one first gets to know one's self, that makes the opportunity to meet others much more pleasant.