[bowhunt72]

Back in January when I foolishly moved out of my house to follow another woman, my wife had a bunch of friends over to throw all of my stuff into the garage. My expensive camera "disappeared" in the process but she denied all knowledge or responsibility. A couple weeks ago she finally admitted she knew where it was, she had let a friend take it and had been lying about it the whole time. She agreed to get it back for me.

I'm trying to put this marriage back together, so I'm being very polite about asking for it. Several dates that she said she would have it back to me by have come and gone. I keep asking every day or two, but there's always an excuse like she forgot, she didn't have time, or she didn't happen to go that direction. I asked for it again this morning when she called me to ask for a favor. She had the gall to tell me she was getting mad at me because I keep calling it my camera. It IS mine. I'm the one that wanted it, I researched it, I ordered it, I paid for it with my money from my paycheck, and I'm the only one that ever used it until my wife wanted to borrow it because she decided she liked it better than the one I gave her.

I'm increasingly thinking she's delusional about this whole marriage and reconciliation thing. She seems to think that because I'm the one that had the affair that she did nothing wrong, which is VERY not true. She's on a "you think the whole world revolves around you" kick because I say something is mine. Her exact words this morning were "You call it your camera but you still say you want to work on this marriage?" Ok, I should probably call it our house because that's what the deed says, but we've lived there ten years and she's never paid the first nickel toward a mortgage payment. I'm not even allowed to live there now and I'm still making the payment for her.

So what AM I allowed to call mine? My car and truck and trailer, all fully bought and paid off by me? My library and family room furniture that I personally designed and built? My camera that I researched, purchased, and paid for out of my own paycheck? My underwear? Where does it stop?

Now I'm getting texts from her asking why I have an attitude about something that's bothering her. Replied that I'm getting a little frustrated with her attitude and excuses and the response was "And yet u want me 2 try marriage with you again??!?" Next came "It pretty obvious u being right and having things is more important than me or a marriage." How is her withholding my camera helping the marriage? I just want my stolen property back! It's been gone for over three months, and it's one of the things I do to relax and de-stress, kind of important with the issues I'm having right now.

Mostly venting, but I'd welcome good advice if anyone has any.

How is you not letting go of the camera helping either? I understand you paid for it and picked it out. But why when you are attempting to get her to work on a marriage that you not once but twice had an affair on her, with the same women, not just let this go.

Ok, did your wife stay home and raise your children? I'm just curious what the deal was. Your wife is undoubtedly going to be angry with you. I honestly can't begin to imagine. I'm not totally taking her side here, but I wonder if you really realize the impact your actions had. Because you talked about your children not talking to you right now either. It seems like you are trying to rush things to just get back on track. They are going to need time tho. And you need to be patient if you want this to work.

Your wife very well may have done stuff wrong too, does it warrant an affair tho, I'm not sure if you understand that kind of betrayal. I kind of think the fact that she is even willing to discuss reconciliation is pretty good. I wouldn't.

What is bothering me is that you are sooo focused on yourself right now, I haven't seen you post about how you are worried about how your kids are handling this, except for how it impacts you. Same with your wife, you've talked lots about how it impacts you, are you really thinking about she has been impacted? Honest questions.

This might be best time to focus on them instead of just yourself. I'm not trying to be harsh, but from your posts that's what I can gather. I really am trying to help. I've tried to help you with your other posts so please don't take this as judgement. It's an observation.

What steps are you taking to save this marriage?

I read that you don't talk to your children about this, who are teens, because you don't think they need to hear you justify it. That you just talk to them about school and common place things. Could you talk to them about it, without justifying it? Talk to them about how they feel? Apologize to them sincerely? Idont know if you have, but just talking to them about commonplace things instead of the real issue, that would really hurt.

You also said it's 90% your fault, 10% your wife's fault. I'm glad you stopped demanding she do certain things to work on this. But the fact that you didn't go back to her until your lover left you, and you don't know how to heal yourself from being hurt by your lover, and you seem more focused on that than on your wife, says alot.

Is your wife just comfortable for you? Is it the children you are hanging onto this marriage for? I'm really confused, I think you are really confused, I bet your wife is pretty confused also.

I'm not saying it's ok for her to keep your stuff either. Is it just your house tho? Has your wife not contributed to the household besides monetary? Cooking, cleaning, raising kids, running a household? I don't know what role she has played, but I'm guessing she has worked and contributed in other ways.

Actually I want to edit that to say her wanting to try again is either pretty good, or very unhealthy. Depending on all the circumstances. I'm actually leaning to unhealthy.

[Confusedinomicon]

Honestly I think if you two can't get over the resentment and anger then you should just divorce and seperate. Your wife says she wants to work things out but you rarely have anything positive to say about the situation. If you are able to see a therapist I think you need to seriously weigh out the positives and negatives of staying together. Do it with a therapist because you are unstable and that excersize would probably be triggering.

[lido78]

I'm pretty sure the camera is gone for good and you may have to just accept it. So, onto the real stuff...like, do you actually love this woman and want to spend the rest of your life with her? There is no right or wrong answer to the question...but if you don't really love her the way a husband should love his wife, just get a divorce and let everyone get on with rebuilding their lives separately. I'm just not sensing a lot of forgiveness and compromise from either you or your wife. The kids will be fine...you'll all be fine.

[Aslan]

doubt its going to workout again with your wife, but you know the answer
to that one better than anybody else. goodluck. oh yeah the camera, you
can always buy a new one, maybe shes messing you around, its gone for
ever.

[lido78]

By the way, I'm not trying to minimize how tough your situation is, but it's just not clear to me (and maybe a few other posters) as to what you really want and why you want it. Given your unresolved feelings for the other woman, I don't think getting back into your marriage will be healthy for anyone at this point...maybe with time, but all parties just seem way too angry to make this even possible.

[Irreplaceable]

It doesn't sound like you are either ready or should get back together. You cheated but you said it wasn't her fault? How? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or an ***** but that doesn't sound right. Let the camera go...If it's causing this much of an issue between you two and you're trying to get back together, let it go. I agree with what someone else said, you may just need to chalk it up to you never getting it back and get another one. Doesn't sound fair but it doesn't sound like you will get it back...

[bowhunt72]

Anika in particular raises some very good points that need to be addressed. For me, though, this particular issue is very simple: theft. The friend never had a right to take it, and she had no right to allow it. It wasn't hers to give any more than it would be right for me to take something of hers and give it away. She told me yesterday while we were talking about something else that trust has to go both ways. I've been doing everything I can to restore her trust in me. She has a long history of lying and now theft. If trust goes both ways, now is the time to prove it.

Anika, you point out very correctly that I have not discussed how my wife was affected by my actions. I have mentioned multiple times that I know I was wrong and I hurt her. The exact nature of that hurt is beyond my understanding, as I have never experienced that kind of betrayal. I know I was devastated by my lover's betrayal of me, so I can only imagine that going through that twice in an 18 year marriage must be many times worse. You state that I only tried to go back and reconcile with my wife after my lover ended our relationship. That is also correct. I ended the first affair 13 years ago because I felt guilty and knew my responsibility was to my wife and kids. This time I was far more deeply emotionally involved and I was fully prepared to end my marriage to be with my lover. When I did decide to come back, self interest was a large factor. I don't have any excuse or justification for the affair. The marriage was in trouble, I felt unloved and unappreciated and taken advantage of and abused. Part of that was her fault. Me seeking out and reconnecting with an old love crossed the line.

I can't say anything more about her hurt because she won't talk to me about it. I have asked repeatedly to go to therapy together to try to work out our feelings about each other and the situation I caused, but she has refused every time. She says she has forgiven me but is not willing to trust me yet or try to restore our relationship. She says she is not willing to work on healing the marriage until I have worked out my feelings and healed and forgiven myself. I think she is right in this, so I have backed off to give her space and time, to try to work out my feelings, to try let myself heal and forgive myself, and to find the support apart from her that she wants me to have. That's what most of my posting has been about.

My posts probably are confusing. I'm still confused myself. I'm trying to reconcile in my mind and feelings things that just can't exist together. I was in a very bitter, physically abusive marriage (she attacks me physically when she gets angry, and she gets angry a lot) that I know I was supposed to stay in because of the vows I took and the remaining feelings we still had for each other. Then I reconnected with my lover, who I knew with my mind I had no business being with, but I truly believed in my heart was my soul mate finally brought back to me by fate and we were destined to be together. She treated me better than I had been treated in many years. Even my parents, who are very strictly religious and strongly disapproved of the affair, commented to me how it was strange that the one I wasn't supposed to be with treated me like gold and the one I was supposed to be with treated me like dirt. Then came the other betrayal, the one where I got hurt, and I was left alone with nothing and no one.

Faced with the options of being alone or trying to salvage my marriage, I chose to try to save the marriage. Some have hinted, or come straight out and accused, that I acted only out of loneliness and desperation and not any real interest in the relationship. I don't have a good argument for that. I honestly believe that there is still some remnant of love left in the desire to restore the relationship, but I won't try to convince anyone that I wasn't lonely and desperate and scared. I still am.

I think we took a positive step today. After meeting again with her attorney, she told me she had decided to sign the agreement we hammered out between us as a legal separation instead of a dissolution that would formally end the marriage. It leaves her in possession of the house with enough of my income to pay for it and allows her to continue her health insurance under my coverage, which a divorce would not. We had previously agreed on child support and that I would continue the kids' health insurance. I will be in slightly better financial shape, although still living on a very small fraction of what I actually earn. I think it's the best I could have hoped for. It lets her get away from me without her losing the house or either of us starving.

That's what I'm doing to work on the marriage. This gives us space and time to work, on our own issues. She has no less than I do, though mine is the big noticeable one the gets all the attention. I have mentioned elsewhere that she has told me if I want the marriage back I have to start again at the beginning, like at the first date. That's what I'm trying to do. We talk on the phone a couple of times a day, though not for long. We see each other every couple of days. We meet occasionally for lunch. I hope once this legal separation is signed in a couple of weeks and I have a little more money that I'll be able to take her out to dinner once in a while. I think agreeing to this separation was a bigger step for her than it appears, because it's the first thing she's done that says she's willing to work on the marriage instead of just ending it. Now we have to start building up trust again that I'm not going to cheat on her and she's not going to lie to me or hit me.

Anika, I need to think about what you said about the kids. I thought the best thing for them was to maintain contact and keep talking with them but let them decide about me and my infidelity at their own pace. Maybe I should get them together, or maybe separately, and bring up the issue and apologize. Thought provoking. As always, thank you for your input and perspective.

[lido78]

I'm so sorry that you're hurting but feeling lonely and desperate and scared is just not compatible with trying to restore a broken marriage. You both deserve to feel love...both as giver and receiver. If you go back and it cannot work for a third time, there may just be unrecoverable damage to everyone involved. I think you will need to go through this to find out what you really want. Saving the marriage is a bit of a smokescreen...it's just a distraction so that you don't have to feel the pain. What is the best way for the two of you to save yourselves and your kids? In the long run, it may be to divorce and rebuild separate and healthy lives. It sounds as if the affair was much more of a sympton than the problem....

[bowhunt72]

" It sounds as if the affair was much more of a sympton than the problem...."

Lido78, I think you are right. My view all along has been that if the marriage was good I never would have had a reason to look elsewhere.

My logic may be a little twisted, but here's how I see it. The affair happened because the marriage was in trouble, and in all honesty, because I was being selfish and had a bad case of testosterone poisoning. Now that the symptom is gone, the affair is over, again, admittedly, not by my choice, I want to try to work on the personal and communication and relationship problems that caused the symptom.

The reason we can't work on those problems right now is my wife's insistence that I get help and get myself straightened out first. I'm trying to do that, and the more I learn, the more insight I get into myself, the more I realize I'm a major problem and I will take a lot of time to get into any kind of shape to work on the marriage. Meanwhile, she is also in counseling to work on her own issues. I think the legal separation is a good idea because it basically sends us to neutral corners to work on our own without completely severing the relationship. I hope we can keep in contact while we do that, and when we are both ready get back together for marriage counseling to put the relationship back together, although I think it will take a lot longer than I originally thought.

Just my warped perspective.

[Confusedinomicon]

Bow. Stop putting all the blame on yourself. Marriage is a two way street. Maybe she didn't cheat on you, but she was probably as miserable as you were. You can'Yt blame yourself completely. I saw you put 90% 10% blame on her. Maybe that is the case for the actual affair but it isn't for the way both of you felt about each other when it happened.

What are the reasons that you ACTUALLY want to stay with her?

Do you even still love her in any romantic fashion?

With the kids, I think it's important they have the opportunity to talk about it, and how they feel. They should still go at their own pace. I just worried tho, if you just try to keep the conversation light and avoid discussing this, they might feel like their feelings here don't count. Or like it's being brushed aside. It would probably be a good thing to let them open up if they need or want to, and that you care.

Seperately is a good idea, just acknowledge how your actions hurt them and that you are sorry. You still love them and are there for them, and just ask them if the have anything they want to say, let them know if they need to talk that you are there. They might talk or might not, but they know the door is open if and when they are ready.

[bowhunt72]

Good news/bad news.

She finally gave me back the camera tonight. She never had any right to it in the first place, then she stole it and hid it and lied about it for three months, but she finally gave it back.

She's not looking at the separation as a time to heal like I was. She was looking at it as a way to keep her health insurance, because as she said she's already been divorced from me for months. She's using it as a threat of extortion. If I don't pay her insurance costs for her, she'll divorce me. There's no way I can afford that. I may post elsewhere, it would be off topic to continue here.

[Confusedinomicon]

I think you are deluded to think she wants to work on the marriage. She already considers herself divorced.

You can post here or elsewhere. It up to you, but we will still listen I'd you need to talk. I'm really sorry that it's come to that. Well ok I don't know alot about the workings of divorce. This sounds like you need to come to terms with it ending. Can you talk to someone from the out patient program? Hotline, hospital, anyone? I know you said was your one last thing. Try to reach out and not do this alone.

[bowhunt72]

If I can make it to morning I can talk to someone at the hospital program. I have to be very careful what I say or they'll forcibly lock me up. They already tried yesterday.

I know you do not want to be inpatient, who does? It might be best. Is there a different hospital you can go too? Maybe better treatment. Check your in box k.

[RomanSunburn]

This is mostly in regards to your original post in this thread.. about the camera... In all honesty, possession is 9/10 of the law. You left it behind when you went off with another woman. It was then in your wife's possession. Her decision to lend it to a friend, I believe, doesn't really count as being stolen. If your camera was that important to you, you should have taken it with you. I also got pretty hung up on the whole financial divide between you and your wife... When my fiance and I first moved in together, I couldn't work. He was supporting both of us. But that didn't change the fact that it was our home, our belongings, our money. I think sticking to this "mine v. your's" mentality hasn't helped with any healing. It's similar to putting the blame in percentage of you versus her. It can be both your faults at the same time without a specific percentage. "This is OUR problem to work on TOGETHER."

Anyways, I'm not sure how helpful that all was because these things are in the past now. I do believe you need to keep yourself safe. Even if your marriage ends, you will still have some sort of relationship with your children. It is much better to be divorced, but still there for your children, than to not be around at all. What's more, is you don't know what the future holds. I think your wife was just being responsible in protecting herself and her children, especially since it sounds like she isn't working, although she may not have gone about it in the best way. I think it's important for you both to continue therapy to better yourselves, but you are not responsible for her actions, only your own. Try to take care of yourself. Get help and start your healing. Even if she doesn't come around, you will be in a better place because of it.

[bowhunt72]

Minor point - I didn't exactly leave it behind. It was with all the other stuff I was taking with me from that room. I asked her to leave my stuff alone and I would take care of it. As soon as I had a place available I came back for it and it was missing. She didn't "lend it to a friend", she had a friend take it away and hide it to keep it away from me because that was one more vindictive little jab she could get in. As far as the possession is 9/10 of the law thing, I can suggest a few bodily orifices you can insert that logic in (sorry, not personal, I've just always hated that line). Right is right and wrong is wrong. I knew, she knew, the friend knew, and everyone else knew that it was my personal property and she had no right to do anything at all with it other than leave it exactly where it was.

[bowhunt72]

Sorry, that last post sounded a little cranky. I think I'd better try to get some sleep. I have to leave early for the hospital in the morning. I made it this far safe, I'll try to talk to someone when I get there.

Bow, as you are taking care of yourself, keeping yourself safe, please remember this very important piece of information.

As you change for the positive, the people around you that continue unhealthy or toxic behavior (for instance your estranged wife) will resist the change and react badly (pick fights, try to manipulate, hurt, bring you back to the "old ways", use verbally abuse language, act passive aggressive, etc.).

They will do everything they possible can to pull you back into the cycle or the game.

You are too important / too valuable / to allow this to happen.

The best thing to do is ignore them. But if that is not possible, and if you are able, just tell them "i really don't have time for this". period.

Wish them the best with all of your heart (mean it) and move on. And focus on you only. Stick to you and your progress.

(The others have their own process, demons and progress to address. Once that happens, you will see how you feel about the rest of it)

Take care.

[bowhunt72]

With the vast majority of opinions against me, I texted my wife to ask her feelings. Told her I was getting beat up online and most people agreed with her. Said I agree the house is ours, I think my underwear is mine, how do we figure out everything else? Said it seems to have been an issue over a lot of things during our marriage, and figuring this out would solve a lot of arguments. Said I was willing to compromise a lot with so many opinions against me.

She texted back that she has always thought it was my thought process that needed to change and asked me to ask your opinions. Anyone care to respond?

Ok. I'll bite.

Knowing now that she has also been physically abusive to you during arguments and other unhealthy beahiour. I think those issues were brought up after most of us gave our opinions. That changes things.

It sounds like you both need therapy to work on your issues. Cheating isn't right, hitting isn't right. I don't care if it's a female doing the hitting, it is still domestic violence. Why is this not a big deal? The house and assists, you probably both contributed in different ways, that can be discussed with a lawyer and you can come to a fair agreement. No one side needs to suffer more greatly than the other. Your children still need and deserve a home. Even if you two never reconcile, what about future relationships with other people? It would be irresponsible to bring this unhealthiness that you both have into future relationships.

You both need to learn how to communicate in a healthy mannor, same for conflict resolution. Bounderies, codependency, trust, dealing with anger ect. You both need to take responsibility for your actions, behavior, and intentions.

Has your wife admitted that she has a problem with physical abuse ( let's call it what it is)? Has she sought any help for this?

[bowhunt72]

I'll apologize now if this post is confusing. I'm totally confused at this point.

Ok, about the legal separation/dissolution - I have pushed for reconciliation ever since the affair blew up in my face. People here have understandably questioned my motives. She told me the other night when she gave me back the camera that she already considers herself divorced and just wants the health insurance. I called her the next day and told her that although I didn't want the dissolution, if she felt as strongly about it as she said she should just go ahead and have her lawyer draw up a dissolution according to the terms we had agreed on and I would sign it without fighting her over it. Now she said that she wanted the separation after all to buy time because she didn't want to make the decision too quickly since there may be a chance for a good marriage again if I can get myself healthy enough to be a good husband and father. Huh?

Tonight we went out together on what could arguably be called a date. She bought me a book on bipolar she thought would be useful and I bought her dinner. Nothing fancy, just soup and sandwich, but we went out and talked together like two normal adults.

The trip home was an eye opener. She told me that the anonymous caller that told my lover's boyfriend we were still seeing each other, who I always assumed was one of his friends, was actually HER. She found his number online and called to tell him about us, thinking my lover would choose me over him, but she just wanted it over one way or another. Turns out they had several conversations, and I found out some things I hadn't known. My lover and her boyfriend hadn't slept together in over two years, but in the time she told me she had made a mistake trying to reconcile with him and came back to me she had started having sex with him again. She did a 60 year old guy she said had been abusing her for years and then came back and slept with me! UGH! Knowing how nasty that feels, I think I have a tiny idea how my wife felt when I did it to her twice with the same woman. What the hell have I done!? All the time she said she wanted to marry me she was trying to use him for his money and security and me for love and sex, both at the same time! How much worse can this get? I know my marriage was in bad shape, but I threw it away for a woman who lied to me, who was never as committed as she said she was, and she was the one who made a point of asking me every day if I was still "all in"!

Back to my wife - she has been in counseling with a religious adviser, who as far as I know isn't any kind of certified therapist. Found out tonight she is also seeing a real therapist who is part of the same practice as my pdoc and my T. I have no idea what issues they are discussing. I don't know if she is just trying to get herself over her hurt from what I did or if she is trying to work on issues to improve herself too. No idea if they are working on the physical abuse issue, although she has a violent temper and has been hitting me, kicking me, biting me, and (excuse me for saying this, ladies) been very literally trying to rip my balls off during screaming temper tantrums during the entire 18 years of our marriage. I don't even know if she considers herself to have an issue with violence. Started getting old after the first dozen years or so, though.

So that's where we're at for the moment. I'm so confused I don't even know which end is up. One minute I'm evil incarnate and she can't get divorced from me fast enough, the next she's still my best friend of 20 years and she hopes I'll once again be the husband she loves. I give up. This is totally beyond my understanding...