[jmrslc]

I spent 10 years with a diagnosed borderline. I was the borderline stream, with lack of self worth & self image, I am also a validation junkie. I work hard, have to have nice things, etc. I feel great pain at perceived slights, etc.

My wife and I have been married for 3.5 years. She is not an emotional person. My emotional well has been "drying up". We even saw counselors before we got married. We got married anyhow. I changed jobs, worked a lot, and we had a son. Her focus changed to him, and I felt even more alone. I have been diagnosed with separation anxiety, and am very much a shame-based thinker.

Over a year ago, I asked her to go to counseling. The slightest criticism from her was enough to really hurt me. She felt like everything was fine, there were no problems, etc.

We tried for baby number 2. We got pregnant. At this point, I was mentoring someone at work, and she and her husband were separating. At first I was a listening ear, then I was someone she "valued" and "admired". I felt alive, and I began an emotional affair - one that eventually turned physical.

My wife found out on July 8th. Life has been hell since. She has threatened to move out of state with the kids, said a lot of hurtful things in front of the boys, turned a lot of people against me (not hard to do when you say your husband had a long-term affair for months and months while you were pregnant and then had his baby).

She believes this would have continued until I was caught. I had been trying to figure out how to end it for a while, but I never brought it up in my individual counseling. I did try to get us scheduled for couples emotionally focused therapy, but it was too late.

Once she found out, she wanted me gone. By the end of that day, she talked about trying to move past it, wanting to be stronger and as if it had never happened. In the last 45 days, she has become extremely angry, bitter, and holds nothing but hate for me. Our sons are 2.5 and 8 mo.

I am devastated. A) I never meant to hurt her B) I don't want to lose my family (papers filed, already $10s of thousands in legal debt). C) She was my best friend until I stepped out.

I realize my feelings for this other person were not real, despite my stating them (which my wife so painfully read when I left a computer open with my google voice texts going back 9 months). She then reviewed our phone records, correlated events, and has been stewing since.

I do believe she has some BPD traits herself (she has painted my family black for even talking with me, same with others in our "circle").

For a validation junkie, I have just committed an atrocity. All of our friends and family know, it is on facebook, known by some at work, etc. She says we are 100% through, has been packing the house and has rented a new place. She moves in a week.

I want desperately to keep my family together, but I feel like it is too late.

I have ended the affair, but she will never trust me again, and has stated that the thought of being with me disgusts her, that she wants to be with someone that she knows has never betrayed her. She is 100% unwilling to try.

I have continued to express my regret, shame, remorse, tried to acknowledge her hurt, and reiterate my love for the family and for her. It looks to be falling on deaf ears.

In 7 days, I will be in an empty house, visiting my kids, penniless (after the lawyers and maintenance/child support), and will have gone from riches to rags overnight.

I want to save the marriage, but do not think it is possible. The little I have heart from her going to therapy has been very negative about me. She won't do couples counseling (cancelled our last two attempts).

Any hope?

[hamster-bamster]

You should stop thinking the thoughts you have been thinking and focus on getting a better deal out of the divorce process (shared custody-wise and money-wise).

What does not ring true in the story is that you call her your best friend. A friend - let alone a BEST friend - is someone who is emotionally attuned to you. In your case, you perceived a slightest criticism as a big hurt, and thus suggested counseling, but she retorted with "all is fine why bother?", which showed that she was not attuned to you.

The threats to move out of state with the kids might be empty, but make sure you know your rights. You can probably veto her plan to move out of state with the kids. She does not seem to realize that you are the kids' father and you have legal rights.

[UniversalTruth]

She probably had post partum which caused her to be removed from being able to understand your emotional state... speaking from personal experience. You abandoned her and your marriage when you strayed - for whatever reason, that is what happened.

Because my husband is in a very similar situation as you... as he is now forming a close emotional relationship with a girl he works with as we have been and are going through some hardship in our marriage - I am wondering, what could your wife have done to prevent this from happening? Because of your story... I am afraid my situation may end up this way.

Hamster knows my recent posts... great advice and insight, as always.

[jmrslc]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

You should stop thinking the thoughts you have been thinking and focus on getting a better deal out of the divorce process (shared custody-wise and money-wise).

What does not ring true in the story is that you call her your best friend. A friend - let alone a BEST friend - is someone who is emotionally attuned to you. In your case, you perceived a slightest criticism as a big hurt, and thus suggested counseling, but she retorted with "all is fine why bother?", which showed that she was not attuned to you.

The threats to move out of state with the kids might be empty, but make sure you know your rights. You can probably veto her plan to move out of state with the kids. She does not seem to realize that you are the kids' father and you have legal rights.

Thank you for your reply. I wasn't sure what sort of support system (if any) I would get here since I made some horrific choices. It is interesting that your comments echo those of my therapist and a couple of friends who still talk to me, that I had been struggling with these things for a long time and that my feelings for her are more idealization (in love with what I WANTED things to be) combined with a MASSIVE fear of abandonment, all crashing down at once.

I do have an attorney, and we are working through the process. She has out and out said that she hopes to find another man to replace me "that the kids can call daddy". Much of that is likely to hurt me. I have a journal (at my attorney's request) -- especially since law enforcement has been called on several occasions (they wanted to arrest her for DV).

I guess I am not morning the marriage as much as the "pristine life" that I had built up around me -- nice job, house, car, wife, kids, toys, big parties at the home, etc. Now that all of THAT is falling apart (still TBD on whether or not my job is safe, still TBD on whether or not I keep the house, still TBD on what toys -- if any -- I keep).

I am beginning to realize that I was in love with "the image", and with "what I wanted it to be." Neither of those is/was reality...

She told me this morning that there is zero, none, absolutely definitively no chance that we will ever have a relationship again. It has been a rough day .

[jmrslc]

Originally Posted by UniversalTruth

She probably had post partum which caused her to be removed from being able to understand your emotional state... speaking from personal experience. You abandoned her and your marriage when you strayed - for whatever reason, that is what happened.

Because my husband is in a very similar situation as you... as he is now forming a close emotional relationship with a girl he works with as we have been and are going through some hardship in our marriage - I am wondering, what could your wife have done to prevent this from happening? Because of your story... I am afraid my situation may end up this way.

Hamster knows my recent posts... great advice and insight, as always.

UniversalTruth,

As the wayward husband, I guess two things jump out at me:

1) If you question something, trust your gut. My wife trusted me (even when she didn't trust "her"), and that lead to opportunities for problems. Without those opportunities, I don't know if things would have progressed...

2) She has said if I "had put half of the effort into the marriage that I put into my affair" she would have reciprocated. I don't know how much of this is true, how much of it was said to hurt me, etc. What I do know is I was getting something out of the relationship with the co-worker. Validation. When my emotional well ran dry, my wife wasn't willing to "toot my horn" for me (her exact words). This despite being 1%-ers, my executive level-job, her being able to stay home most of the last 2.5 years, while being able to live like money wan't an issue. That having been said, I was working 70+hour weeks (I had to be the best, work the hardest, be recognized -- somewhere), so slipping in eight hotel visits in over 3 months, long phone conversations, lots of text, etc. was easy to do.

I am not saying she was naive. She trusted me as she should have and I betrayed that.

I do wish she would have been willing to listen to me when I asked for her to "fill my emotional cup." She said she was too busy taking care of our children and didn't have time. I was too busy "being the best" at work that my contributions were monetary.

Today has been very hard for me. I am a planner AND a devil's advocate to the nth degree. I can't plan for anything right now (who knows what variable will change tomorrow).

I do know that if you are willing to try and figure out what his emotional needs are -- and meet them -- you are headed in a much better direction than we were. I would suggest marriage counseling. If you are willing, all the better. My wife wasn't the second they looked at her (it was fine when they looked at me). If you can find a certified "Emotionally Focused Therapist", they are great. I think if we had done this a year ago, we would still be together today provided she poured her half into the emotional cup, and she would at least know more about "me".

She knew I needed a lot of validation and re-affirmation. I am starting to believe she felt like withholding it from me was helping me to generate it from within. Instead, I found it elsewhere -- and will forever (FOREVER) regret it.

My heart goes out to you and your husband. I pray your course doesn't follow mine.

[casurfer]

It sounds like there were other things going on beyond just the lack of intimacy between you. I think that when she found out you had strayed, it just gave her an excuse to do what she maybe already wanted to. I am having extreme anxiety right now over my relationship. We've been together for a long time, and on the surface things always seem fine, we get along decent....and we are physical (not as much as I want)... but I feel like she has a barrier around her all of the time. I feel like I am always complimenting her, working on propping her up, but I don't feel like it is reciprocated. If we have any sort of conflict I feel like she doesn't listen to me and dismisses how I'm feeling. I guess in the end it's about control, to me it feels like she has control over the relationship.... if she wants to be physical, it will happen, if she doesn't it won't. If we disagree about something with the kids.... if she doesn't agree with me, it will be her final decision, regardless of how I feel about it. I tried to explain this to her that even though she says we are 50/50, it's more like 49/51, with her 1% always overriding what I say. I've tried to get her to go to counseling with me, but she doesn't want to, she gets angry with me and feels like I am impossible to please.... but that's totally not true.... I don't complain about anything, I just want us to be closer.... Anyway not to ramble here.... but I think that there is more going on there. I guess the lesson in your post is to not get involved with others while you are in a relationship... and be upfront about what's going on as much as you can even if it hurts you tell them what you're feeling.

[SilverNeurotic]

Right now, in the immediate future, I don't think there's anything you can do other than try to hold your own in court as far as child custody and all that are concerned. Your wife needs time to grieve and come to terms with the affair. Right now your wife is grieving in the same way as she would if you died. So you need to give it time. Maybe she'll come around and you can reconcile, maybe your won't...but time is essential right now.

[MissMaggie]

I think it's easy to be blinded by everything you may be losing in a situation like yours. You're remembering all the good things about the relationship, why you married her and were with her in the first place. How things were when you made each other happy. But you have to be realistic and look at the whole picture. Why do you want to reconcile? Is it because you feel it's the right thing for you and your future? Or because you feel it's the right thing for the children or the traditional view of what you should do. Ultimately, you need to focus on what will make you happy and your life fulfilled (and from the sounds of how things were I don't think it's a relationship with your wife although I could be wrong...). Regardless of what you've done, mistakes you've made, you deserve to be happy. To me it sounds like you were living a very meek and unhappy existence and you made a mistake. You're human. It's easy to develop feelings not necessarily for someone else but for the way that person may make us feel, the fact that they give us joy and hope in our lives again. I guess you could say I have a bit of personal experience in this whole area. You become attracted to your perception of that person's role in your life, even though it could be completely different from reality. And coming from someone who has been trying to fix the marriage for almost two years, there are sometimes relationships that aren't meant to be fixed... And you can end up wasting a lot of good years and energy trying to fix them. Yes you had an affair, you made a mistake. A huge one and a long term one. But your wife was no angel either. She also had a role in the demise of the relationship. My advice, for starters anyways, quit blaming yourself so much. Relationships end, things happen that we can't change or take back, but life goes on and you will be happy again. Just hang in there

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by jmrslc

She has out and out said that she hopes to find another man to replace me "that the kids can call daddy". Much of that is likely to hurt me.

Look - our society has made progress since Anna Karenina committed suicide, partly due to the inability to see her son. We no longer use loss of custody and visitation as a penalty for having an affair. The law and legal practice varies by state, but given that you had a discreet affair and weren't having your kids witness your relationship with a coworker, in most states you would not be penalized so harshly as to to be pronounced "not daddy" by the judicial system. And that is the way it should be - your abilities and responsibilities as a parent have nothing to do with your relationship with your wife. Of course, you cannot control her actions post-divorce, and she would be free to find another man to live with, and she would be free to request that the kids call him "daddy", but you yourself should not give up and yield to her. You should maintain your status as "the daddy" with the kids.

Just to interject since inside your thread is a sub-thread in which you and UniversalTruth are having an exchange - UniversalTruth was not in the shoes of your wife, being catered to monetarily and being carefree except for the need to tend to the children - she has had it much more harshly than your (ex) wife.

I understand that your wife is upset, but YOU should not let her throw the baby with the bathwater. She wanted to stay home with the children and you enabled her to do that. This achievement/contribution of yours is not going away simply because you have had the affair. Also, since money was not an issue, how come your wife had no time for you at all? I did not have any money when my kids were little, and did see that other parents who had money would hire babysitters and go out on a "date night". You are describing things that sort of clash with each other and leave an impression of "it does not compute" - you are describing a lavish lifestyle and at the same time a woman who cannot provide any emotional closeness to her husband who is the supplier of the lavish lifestyle. It seems that she is, simply put, a cold person (emotionally). Well, you actually said so in the OP...

Finally, in the OP you stated several dx's. And, that your wife "felt" that there were no problems and everything was fine. Well, she might have "felt" whatever she 'felt like feeling' (no pun intended), but she did not face the objective reality of your dx's. And you asked her to go to counseling, so you made an attempt at making things work between you and her. She disregarded your needs - why mourn the divorce then? You will find a woman who will not disregard your needs so blatantly. "borderline" is a rare dx in men - stereotypically, it is a female dx. Did she care to realize that you were especially vulnerable due to having this personality disorder?

I might be off because I am reading your posts only and not hearing her side of the story, but based on what you wrote, the picture I get is of a spoiled woman who likes the material conveniences provided by a marriage to a high earning man and dislikes the emotional inconveniences that stem from the fact that her high earning husband has unusually strong emotional needs. So, she is going to get the most out of the divorce - post-divorce, she will enjoy some of the material conveniences provided by your support payments and by her retaining a share of assets, WITHOUT having to be bothered by your emotional needs and vulnerabilities. So for her this divorce is a win - she will dispense with the hardships and only retain the positive aspects. That is probably why she immediately jumped to the idea of divorce, without any hesitation - she did not like being married to a man with high emotional needs, but did like being married to a high earner. Very simple.

Again, it is possible that having heard her side of the story, I would not be saying this.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by jmrslc

I have a journal (at my attorney's request) -- especially since law enforcement has been called on several occasions (they wanted to arrest her for DV).

What is DV? A Driving Violation? Bad enough to be arrested for?

Ask the attorney about more time with the 2.5 year old. I assume the 8 month old is being breastfed, and that puts limitations on how long you can stay with him. To the best of my understanding, courts honor and respect the needs of breastfed infants - the needs for close proximity to mom most of the time. But the 2.5 year old is old enough to spend long spans of time with you. And make sure the attorney gets some kind of a clause into the agreement that would allow for revisiting the issue of visitation as the baby gets older and stop being dependent on breast milk. If your wife breastfeeds past the first year, night feedings should suffice - you can ask to have him for a whole day -- you will be feeding him table foods or baby foods.

I think you should also tone down the negative self talk - you posted about your "horrific choices" - it seems that you made a bad choice once. I do not see a multitude of choices to berate yourself for - you tried your best to get through to her, and, given that you had been dx'd with BPD before you got married, the "in health" part of the vows was blatantly not upheld by the wife, since she knew that she was marrying a person who might need joint therapy sessions. Had you been dx'd with BPD while already married, we could speculate that she was not able to adjust because of the shock of the diagnosis or whatever, but no, she knew what she was getting herself into - you said that you had counseling pre-marriage, so I assume that she was fully aware of your mental health issues.

You speculated that she might have BPD traits herself given the black-and-white thinking. Could be, for sure. That might explain the drastic reaction coming from her. Another hypothesis is that she used the opportunity to get rid of you, hence the drastic reaction without any shade of doubt, hesitation, or regret. I am leaning in favor of the latter hypothesis, because you said in the OP that she just is not an emotional person. A person with BPD would manifest the BPD in the course of day-by-day living, and not just when presented with an extreme stressor. Sure, the stress would trigger a BPD person, but not from 0 to 10. Say, a BPD person would have symptoms at 3 during peaceful times and symptoms at 8 during stressful times - it is a matter of degree. Per OP, she was quite unemotional before the affair happened. Also, there was no push-pull coming from her. Read this:

Out of the FOG - Push-Pull Behavior

Apparently this is common in BPD. She did not display any of it. I do not know if a sudden onset of BPD in response to a stressor is possible; you might want to discuss it with your individual counselor.

[hamster-bamster]

Oh, DV=domestic violence?

Tell us more...

[jmrslc]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Just to interject since inside your thread is a sub-thread in which you and UniversalTruth are having an exchange - UniversalTruth was not in the shoes of your wife, being catered to monetarily and being carefree except for the need to tend to the children - she has had it much more harshly than your (ex) wife.

Understood. I should do more reading on others' situations before I jump in and offer uneducated opinions. Thanks for clarifying...

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

I understand that your wife is upset, but YOU should not let her throw the baby with the bathwater. She wanted to stay home with the children and you enabled her to do that. This achievement/contribution of yours is not going away simply because you have had the affair. Also, since money was not an issue, how come your wife had no time for you at all? I did not have any money when my kids were little, and did see that other parents who had money would hire babysitters and go out on a "date night". You are describing things that sort of clash with each other and leave an impression of "it does not compute" - you are describing a lavish lifestyle and at the same time a woman who cannot provide any emotional closeness to her husband who is the supplier of the lavish lifestyle. It seems that she is, simply put, a cold person (emotionally). Well, you actually said so in the OP...

Interesting you say this. Even when she was staying home, she had "pre-school" so she could have a mommy's morning out three days a week. It was always for "the good of my son" (socialization, education), but I never could understand why she didn't just find mothers' groups and socialize there...
She lacks empathy, and is one of the more "mean" people (emotionally and otherwise). I am walking a fine line between demonizing her now to make myself feel better and the truth, but simply put -- she used to work in the medical profession. She used to make fun of patients, their families, etc. It disgusted me. She is a "people watcher" who will sit at lunch in a restaurant and "make fun" or "criticize" people. Those are facts, so I don't feel like I am passing judgement. Those are things I witnessed (and was subjected to many a time).

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Finally, in the OP you stated several dx's. And, that your wife "felt" that there were no problems and everything was fine. Well, she might have "felt" whatever she 'felt like feeling' (no pun intended), but she did not face the objective reality of your dx's. And you asked her to go to counseling, so you made an attempt at making things work between you and her. She disregarded your needs - why mourn the divorce then? You will find a woman who will not disregard your needs so blatantly. "borderline" is a rare dx in men - stereotypically, it is a female dx. Did she care to realize that you were especially vulnerable due to having this personality disorder?

Why mourn the divorce... You aren't the first one to ask me that. I guess a few things come to mind, a) I don't like change. This is bringing A LOT of change. b) I like to have some amount of control over my destiny (I am a quintessential devil's advocate and planner). I don't know what is happening tomorrow, let alone have my 24 month "budget" like I used to have. c) I have an overwhelming fear of being alone. I will literally call someone (anyone) on my way home so I am not in the car alone. The fear of abandonment and/or separation anxiety in this case is literally eating me up. Perhaps I will link to my threads on a BPD family support thread (if that is permitted) at some point. I have a whole journal on my 10-yr relationship with a borderline, and what I stayed through vs. being alone.

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

I might be off because I am reading your posts only and not hearing her side of the story, but based on what you wrote, the picture I get is of a spoiled woman who likes the material conveniences provided by a marriage to a high earning man and dislikes the emotional inconveniences that stem from the fact that her high earning husband has unusually strong emotional needs. So, she is going to get the most out of the divorce - post-divorce, she will enjoy some of the material conveniences provided by your support payments and by her retaining a share of assets, WITHOUT having to be bothered by your emotional needs and vulnerabilities. So for her this divorce is a win - she will dispense with the hardships and only retain the positive aspects. That is probably why she immediately jumped to the idea of divorce, without any hesitation - she did not like being married to a man with high emotional needs, but did like being married to a high earner. Very simple.

Again, it is possible that having heard her side of the story, I would not be saying this.

Her side of the story...
1) She has been "begging me" to take a lesser paying job for 2 years so I could spend more time at home (while reducing her hours, spending more, and wanting a bigger house, new cars, etc.). This is what she says today to everyone who will listen; except the parenthetical.
2) She "knew" this woman was trouble, but "trusted me" 100%. She "told her friends" I would NEVER cheat on her (not sure why the discussion was even taking place).
3) As my friendship grew into more, she "let me" attend things with the other woman. She trusted me completely.
4) We were never struggling, that was just me coming up with reasons to justify my choice & my actions.
5) My actions were malicious. (Her logic = I made a choice, that choice caused her pain, therefore it was malicious). She doesn't understand the INTENT to hurt her was never there, I was just stupid, short-sighted, selfish, and a bunch of other things
6) I am the most selfish person she has ever met
7) I was sneaking off with my ***** while she cared for our kids (I was working ridiculous hours, not only maintaining our household income when she cut her hours but increasing it 50%. My affair consisted of eight -- 8 total hotel visits and a few other encounters. Not trying to minimize it, but she is trying to make it out to be that I spent 20-40 hours a week with this other woman -- trust me, not possible in one of the top 500 fastest growing companies in the mortgage industry, tripling in size in 18 months to over 2000 people while I contribute at an executive level reporting into the C-suite). Again, parenthetical is my addition.
8) I was texting my "girlfriend" while at the hospital delivering our child (I checked my phone when I went to the cafeteria to get a sandwich, and replied with our "status" -- the same status I called my family with. I was excited, and shared that with "her"). Parenthetical addition -- yet again.
9) I went home the night we had the baby to "see her". (We have dogs, and agreed not to board them, I did talk with "her", and we did make a point of seeing each other, but there was no "sex". It was wrong)
10) I was so comfortable with this affair to bring her around my family. (At one point, "She" had tickets to something, she invited me, my wife, my kids, my brother and his family. It was casual, but it was a very painful realization for my STB exwife).
11) I brought her into our home (she came to my home on a few occasions when my wife was not here and my kids were asleep).
12) I talked to "her" for hours and hours. (She pulled the phone records, correlated events, and has been marking everything on a calendar to talk about what I was doing here vs. there, etc).

I did add parentheticals and other comments, but those are her basic points. Should she forgive me? Probably not. I do need to really evaluate your (and others') comments here when I say I want her back...

[jmrslc]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

What is DV? A Driving Violation? Bad enough to be arrested for?

Domestic Violence. According to my attorneys (I had one previously before switching), it would have greatly helped my case.
[/QUOTE=hamster-bamster;3246417]
Ask the attorney about more time with the 2.5 year old. I assume the 8 month old is being breastfed, and that puts limitations on how long you can stay with him. To the best of my understanding, courts honor and respect the needs of breastfed infants - the needs for close proximity to mom most of the time. But the 2.5 year old is old enough to spend long spans of time with you. And make sure the attorney gets some kind of a clause into the agreement that would allow for revisiting the issue of visitation as the baby gets older and stop being dependent on breast milk. If your wife breastfeeds past the first year, night feedings should suffice - you can ask to have him for a whole day -- you will be feeding him table foods or baby foods.
[/QUOTE]

Will do. My wife had decided to pickup a new job (more for her than $$) but I was taking care of the kids several evenings through bedtime (bottle feeding, etc. I won't likely get overnights with the youngest, but I am going to push for two overnights with my eldest son.

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

I think you should also tone down the negative self talk - you posted about your "horrific choices" - it seems that you made a bad choice once. I do not see a multitude of choices to berate yourself for - you tried your best to get through to her, and, given that you had been dx'd with BPD before you got married, the "in health" part of the vows was blatantly not upheld by the wife, since she knew that she was marrying a person who might need joint therapy sessions. Had you been dx'd with BPD while already married, we could speculate that she was not able to adjust because of the shock of the diagnosis or whatever, but no, she knew what she was getting herself into - you said that you had counseling pre-marriage, so I assume that she was fully aware of your mental health issues.

I need to go back and re-read, but I was married to a dx'd BPD, I was the Borderline stream (codependent). Sorry if I was unclear. Nonetheless, I have been diagnosed with poor self esteem, severe separation anxiety, and issues with self-validation (essentially a validation junkie). I have been MOSTLY open and transparent (to the extent that she would tolerate) around my issues. There were many times she just wasn't willing to hear it or be a part of the solution. She was fully aware of my mental health issues, codependent, need for more emotional validation, self-image/self-esteem problems, anxiety.

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

You speculated that she might have BPD traits herself given the black-and-white thinking. Could be, for sure. That might explain the drastic reaction coming from her. Another hypothesis is that she used the opportunity to get rid of you, hence the drastic reaction without any shade of doubt, hesitation, or regret. I am leaning in favor of the latter hypothesis, because you said in the OP that she just is not an emotional person. A person with BPD would manifest the BPD in the course of day-by-day living, and not just when presented with an extreme stressor. Sure, the stress would trigger a BPD person, but not from 0 to 10. Say, a BPD person would have symptoms at 3 during peaceful times and symptoms at 8 during stressful times - it is a matter of degree. Per OP, she was quite unemotional before the affair happened. Also, there was no push-pull coming from her.

Apparently this is common in BPD. She did not display any of it. I do not know if a sudden onset of BPD in response to a stressor is possible; you might want to discuss it with your individual counselor.

Will do (discuss with my counselor). The reason I believe she has some BPD tendencies is that she did some significant things throughout our relationship. a) mirroring (she loved what I loved, until she just didn't -- I have tons of examples of our early-on relationship)
b) Splitting - People are either good or bad -- there is very little gray. My brother has some issues. She "cut him out". Her mom made her mad 15+ years ago, she "cut her out". She does this over and over with a lot of people. Once she "paints them black", she doesn't come back.

The only other thought that comes to mind here (and may support your hypothesis) would be NPD vs. BPD. It would also speak to the way she treats others... Nonetheless, I am not qualified to make a diagnosis. I will work with my therapist to figure out what portions of my "gut" I ignored when she and I got together (and there WERE portions I ignore). I will also work more on figuring out how to co-parent (wither BPD, NPD, or whatever).

I will continue the fight on the legal front. Regardless of how I am beating myself up here (and believe me, I am my own worst critic -- I am very hard on myself), I am not willing to give up my kids. We live in a no-fault divorce state, so at the end of the day, I will eventually get 50/50 time with my kids.

[MissMaggie]

She has out and out said that she hopes to find another man to replace me "that the kids can call daddy".

This comment that you said she made absolutely infuriates me. she's threatening to punish the kids for something that is between you and herself. She can't use the children against you, genetics is fairly set in stone. Regardless of the fact that you and her weren't able to make things work in the relationship, those are and will always be your children and its extremely selfish and unrealistic (and intentionally hurtful) for her to believe otherwise, regardless of how much she's hurting. And as far as letting go of stereotypical ideas of what the "pristine life" should be, a lot of traditional stereotypes of the white picket fence and the happily ever after are just that. Stereotypes, images, and what we're raised to believe is the perfect life. Ultimately, they're highly unrealistic and it's amazing what goes on behind closed doors. Your marriage isn't the only one failing, every couple has their ups and downs, beginnings (and unfortunately sometimes ends). We have to accept that life can really suck sometimes, but not always and for that you can never lose hope. Every time one door closes, a window opens. You just have to find it

[jmrslc]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Oh, DV=domestic violence?

Tell us more...

I guess I should have elaborated on that story. Week two post-discovery of the affair, I stayed in a hotel. One night, she started calling and emailing me like crazy around 1-2am. She was making ridiculous claims, and eventually resorted to calling the hotel directly when I silenced her contact. She said "your dogs got out" (not possible, two doorways, then an electric fenced yard AND I had put them away myself -- plus the doors are self closing hinges swinging IN to the dogs.) She then said "come to think of it, I don't remember you having dogs". I called the Police to do a welfare check on the dogs. They got there, talked to her, confirmed the behavior, asked me to come down (circa 3am) to give a statement. They asked some questions and concluded she was being arrested for domestic violence for harassment during unreasonable hours. I spent the next 60 minutes persuading them not to arrest her (in this state, the state takes over, the victim simply can't NOT press charges). I had to convince them that they had asked me questions that I didn't know the legal implications or meanings of, and that I needed those fully explained to me before I could answer them accurately. They called in the sergeant and explained the terms (which I already knew) and asked me again for my statement. I answered in such a way that she wasn't arrested. I didn't want the mom of my kids going to jail, having that hanging over her head. Heck, I just hurt her with the affair so I felt like I was doing GOOD... She will never see any of it (nor will she).

That is the DV story... one of 7 police visits...

[jmrslc]

Originally Posted by MissMaggie

She has out and out said that she hopes to find another man to replace me "that the kids can call daddy".

This comment that you said she made absolutely infuriates me. she's threatening to punish the kids for something that is between you and herself. She can't use the children against you, genetics is fairly set in stone. Regardless of the fact that you and her weren't able to make things work in the relationship, those are and will always be your children and its extremely selfish and unrealistic (and intentionally hurtful) for her to believe otherwise, regardless of how much she's hurting. And as far as letting go of stereotypical ideas of what the "pristine life" should be, a lot of traditional stereotypes of the white picket fence and the happily ever after are just that. Stereotypes, images, and what we're raised to believe is the perfect life. Ultimately, they're highly unrealistic and it's amazing what goes on behind closed doors. Your marriage isn't the only one failing, every couple has their ups and downs, beginnings (and unfortunately sometimes ends). We have to accept that life can really suck sometimes, but not always and for that you can never lose hope. Every time one door closes, a window opens. You just have to find it

Looking for that window . Rather, I am going to spend some time looking at myself THEN I will find the window...

Her comments infuriate me too. I have almost 350 journal entries in my log since early July at my Attorney's request. Things that should never be said to or around a 2.5yo ("Come here xxxxx so we can tell daddy what a piece of **** he is", "It would be better off if you would just shoot yourself", "you destroyed this family, and I am going to make sure your sons know every detail of how you destroyed their intact home"). I have several hundred of these .

Saying them is one thing. I am only logging the ones where my son is present. He is regressing already. He now says "I'm sorry" about 200x a day . We bump into him, he apologizes. That started about two weeks after discovery day (D-Day).

[MissMaggie]

Ugh I'm so sorry to hear of what you're going through with her acting the way she is!!! I can relate to an amazing degree. I had an emotional affair, followed by a separation, we got back together and I was honest about a physical interaction that had occurred during our separation. And for some reason, even though I hadn't wanted to be with him and knew we were incompatible, I was just blinded by this obsession with making it work, even tho he was incredibly cruel, name calling ,threats, blackmail, a couple of minor but still physical incidents. I felt I was all to blame and had to make things right. Luckily there are no kids involved in my situation, I can't even begin to imagine how tough that aspect is for you. I've come a long way with accepting that he had more than an equal share in the problems with our marriage. Yes, I stepped out emotionally and destroyed the trust, but he contributed to the root of the problems. We all have our issues and demons, but I have complete faith you will get through this (with the love of your children in tact). Hang in there!

[hamster-bamster]

more and more evidence of some BPD on her part...

agree with MissMaggie - her behavior wrt to the kids is outrageously inappropriate

[jmrslc]

Originally Posted by MissMaggie

Ugh I'm so sorry to hear of what you're going through with her acting the way she is!!! I can relate to an amazing degree. I had an emotional affair, followed by a separation, we got back together and I was honest about a physical interaction that had occurred during our separation. And for some reason, even though I hadn't wanted to be with him and knew we were incompatible, I was just blinded by this obsession with making it work, even tho he was incredibly cruel, name calling ,threats, blackmail, a couple of minor but still physical incidents. I felt I was all to blame and had to make things right. Luckily there are no kids involved in my situation, I can't even begin to imagine how tough that aspect is for you. I've come a long way with accepting that he had more than an equal share in the problems with our marriage. Yes, I stepped out emotionally and destroyed the trust, but he contributed to the root of the problems. We all have our issues and demons, but I have complete faith you will get through this (with the love of your children in tact). Hang in there!

I guess this is why I am struggling. Despite all if this, I am desperately grasping to keep her with me. I "feel things" very deeply, and this is hurting more than I can explain.

I wake up this morning at 4:30, and literally I am thinking about our wedding, praying she will take me back when the house is packed and she has accelerated her move (tomorrow or Sat, depending on availability).

I feel like my heart is a massive weight that is crushing me. Anti anxiety meds help, but as my doc says. "This exceeds the capabilities of your meds, and are going to feel a lot through this one."

I NEED the "start feeling better" part. After my first marriage, that was finding someone right away. I know I need some alone time, but I don't want it...

She has left every picture of us, her wedding dress, and all of our travel souvenirs for me to take down . I am waiting until she is gone.

I may move into my other property, but it is haunted with memories of both ex wives, just much cheaper.

Struggling today,

J

[MissMaggie]

I wish there was something I could say to help the pain but all I can promise is that it WILL get better. It's going to be a tough road for a while. I know that feeling of needing them and only them (in spite of everything that has happened). Forgetting all the bad and the hurt, literally feeling like you can't function without their acceptance and love. But one day you will have clarity about the situation and see clearly how strong you have become after all you have endured. I strongly believe we learn the most about ourselves when we are at our absolute lowest. We are forced to endure and grow, become more resilient and wise. Take advantage of this time to get to know yourself again, and give yourself some credit! You're still standing after all you've been through, you're going to come out of this a better person, and be able to put all you've learned to good use. Sometimes things happen to us that we can't explain and wish wouldn't. But we can take from everything that happens in our lives the valuable experiences we gain

[jmrslc]

It may be time to post in the divorcing thread... Things are ugly.

[kirby777]

She does sound BPD.

How quickly are people able to divorce in your state?

How long did you date prior to marriage?

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by jmrslc

I wake up this morning at 4:30, and literally I am thinking about our wedding, praying she will take me back when the house is packed and she has accelerated her move (tomorrow or Sat, depending on availability).

I feel like my heart is a massive weight that is crushing me. Anti anxiety meds help, but as my doc says. "This exceeds the capabilities of your meds, and are going to feel a lot through this one."

I am sorry, but this is not only anxiety - this is depression. I have been through this, with these exact symptoms - early awakening (depression can manifest itself both in early awakenings and in hypersomnia when you sleep for 16 hours not that given your employment you can afford sleeping for that long, but just saying - depression can disturb normal sleep in BOTH directions), and the heart being a massive weight that's crushing.

In my case, Prozac helped, and I am not on it anymore - it was not a lifetime need, but it sure did the job when I was at a very low point. Not saying that it would help you - the response to antidepressants varies from person to person - I am just saying that it is not just anxiety, but also depression. IMHO, having been there done that.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by jmrslc

It may be time to post in the divorcing thread... Things are ugly.

As my late grandmother used to say, again and again:

"everything for the better"

You are just not seeing it now, but it IS for the better - her reaction was a Litmus test that she did not pass. Sure she was entitled to leaving her wedding dress and the travel souvenirs behind to make a dramatic, poignant statement to you - she sure was entitled to that and I am not blaming her FOR THAT. But she wasn't entitled to involve the kids the way she did, and it simply did not reflect well on her. So in the long run, you will be better off not married to her. Plus, given that your emotional needs are higher than those of an average person, and, that she was uniquely ill-equipped to meet them (=her ability to meet emotional needs is much lower than that of an average person), the chances that your next woman will have more warmth for you are statistically high. In other words, you were uniquely ill-suited for one another.

[jmrslc]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

As my late grandmother used to say, again and again:

"everything for the better"

You are just not seeing it now, but it IS for the better - her reaction was a Litmus test that she did not pass. Sure she was entitled to leaving her wedding dress and the travel souvenirs behind to make a dramatic, poignant statement to you - she sure was entitled to that and I am not blaming her FOR THAT. But she wasn't entitled to involve the kids the way she did, and it simply did not reflect well on her. So in the long run, you will be better off not married to her. Plus, given that your emotional needs are higher than those of an average person, and, that she was uniquely ill-equipped to meet them (=her ability to meet emotional needs is much lower than that of an average person), the chances that your next woman will have more warmth for you are statistically high. In other words, you were uniquely ill-suited for one another.

Thank you. I agree with your comments about depression too. I am not only giving up time with my kids (and sharing a roof with them, for now), I just realized I had the last night with my (ex) wife -- likely forever, and with my youngest son for 1-2 years . She rejected anything my attorney put forth. She has told me she wants this thing wide open in court, drug through the mud, etc. Re: medication, my MD and my therapist share an office.

Edit (added) I am on Xanax (1mg XR 2x daily, plus 1mg regular PRN, and Mertazapine, dosage escapes me, but I will check). I am still waking up at 4:30. About to head upstairs, take my son to go get coffee (last morning in who knows how long) and I don't give a hoot how mad she gets. I don't have much time left with them without "her controlling" as the primary caregiver. As of now, equal parents in the same house. Signing off.

I am in the process of making changes to my living arrangements that will save me a lot. It will be depressing on multiple fronts, but I think it has to be done. It means selling our dream home -- the one the kids would grow up in, have sleepovers in the great room, the amazing yard & deck for entertaining, etc., etc.. I am just sad that very little in my life is NOT changing. I guess I am keeping a car and my pups . This was their forever home... We shopped for 18 months to find it. Dream home, yard, schools, location, etc..

She moves out today, and I move out as soon as it sells.

I know a lot more about my needs now, about who I am, but I still have a long way to go.

I just wish she hadn't painted me so black - SO much hatred for me. I hope it doesn't have long term ramifications on the kids.

She told me last night that she is 100% blame-free in the failure of our marriage. 100% of it is my fault. I guess that helps me see more about her issues...