Honest question?

Uh... these are all the reasons I went to therapy. Basically I don't know how how have a relationship. What you said about a woman's worth is how I was raised too. I'm sorry you had such a lousy therapist. My current t is a man and he doesn't buy any of this carp. I hope you will try again. This is such a good thread, you really got a good discussion going, and we were able to understand what you really meant, after an initial misunderstanding. Being able to do that, explain things as you did in this part especially, should really serve you well in getting anh help you need. But just being able to express yourself that way - you do know who you are and what you want. You need to meet more people and let them know the treasure you are.

You make that sound like a bad thing. If is couple is not on the same page regarding the big things in a relationship, they should split up!

He wouldnt be "obligated" to do anything since he would already know that sex drives are different.

Lol! If he stuck around hoping things would change, good luck with that.

[/B]QUOTE=High Treason;3277765]Well, he will either let it go or leave the relationship. Just because he respects her doesn't mean he is obligated to suffer through a sexless relationship. But yes, what he would not do if he respects you is try to force you into it.[/QUOTE]

This is why I would feel guilty to even start a relationship. I need to be ready from day 1 to get physical or they will leave me. As they should.

I can communicate and express things through writing better than I can through speech. I'm really not this easy to understand in real life.

That is absolutely not the case! You are under no obligation to be intimate with anyone from day 1. Not even day 300. That part comes with trust and communication. Everyone goes at their own pace. Honor your own. And dont worry if he cannot respect your pace, that is on him, not you.

And any man that expects you to put out from the start is a jerk. He can be attracted to you, but he is an adult and can control himself.

Honey, not all men are disrespectful jerks. You will learn that as you go along.

It is important to find a good t that you can trust and work on your self esteem. Not all t's are good. Not all good t's are meant to be for us.

Consider going to interviews with different t's to see if you can connect with someone.

I hope you will try. Or at least consider it. It really is worth it.

I don't, personally feel HT is referring to Day 1 ((he's talking about a long term relationship, there.....))

No, if they left, because you aren't willing to be physical, from day 1, then you aren't dating the right guy!

It's OK, to say to a man, hey, let's see where things stand, in x# of dates/days/weeks/months or after we've discussed xyz(maybe there's things you'd like to take the time in getting to know about another person, before going down that path)

Maybe, your future new beau, would love to read a lot of what you've written. You can have an in person and technology based relationship. Modern relationship. Spend time together, and sometimes, some people, really open up more and more in written communication and that can strengthen the time spent together. Knowing someone from the inside out, so there's less mysticism about their in person quirks, et al.

At that point, you'd probably know, whether you wanted that first kiss or not, and it would probably be discussed(written or spoken) ahead of time, no surprises, eh?

No one is saying he is obligated to suffer in any way. but when it's about more than sex and the guy loves the girl it's not suffering, it's seeing more than the physical aspects of a loving relationship. if he's not thinking with his loins and cares he will wait.

Ok, "from Day 1" was a blatant exaggeration...sorry...what I meant was sooner rather than later. I know some people are ok with sex on the first date. I'm not. I'm not even ok with kissing on the first date, but I don't know how to communicate that to someone without putting them off. Anyway, I think most people expect something physical to be going on after a few dates or after a couple months of dating. Or something...I don't know what the average expectation is because I've never dated. All I know is that I would need more time than average and I'll feel really bad if I have to make them wait for me which pretty much means he's choosing between cheating on/leaving me or not having sex for unrealistically long time. That isn't fair to them. I honestly don't think I'd be worth waiting for. I don't know what I'm doing and I would be limited to what I could physically do because of joint problems. Plus, I'm only good looking in clothes, not naked...so basically it would be really selfish for me to ever be in a relationship.

??? Selfish, because you don't have a perfect naked body?!

Alright, PC...show of hands, who does?!

I realize, that you are scared about dating, timing, et al. You aren't ready to kiss on the first date. Are worried about someone elses preconceived notion of timing of when to jump into bed.

I feel that the point being made by myself and several others here, is that when you are communicating with a partner, they will understand you, through and through, and the right man for you, will be the man that understands this about you. Has compassion for you.

There's men out there, that also perhaps, don't like the idea of rushing into intimacy, right away.

And, I am serious, about my above posting. Most of this world, does not have a perfect body undressed. And that's OK.

You mentioned, scars and stretch marks. *raising hand*, I have scars and stretch marks. I have decades old SH/SA scars, too.

Ever heard, the heart that is meant to love you, will?

I meant selfish as in I'm depriving the other person of sex/physical intimacy because I have anxiety about it and part of the reason I have anxiety about it is because of my body because the handful of people who have seen me made me feel humiliated about it. I feel like I'm false advertising too because my face and hair are pretty and look really young, but it's just setting people up to think I'm good looking when all I have is a pretty face (well except for a couple of small scars), pretty eyes, and pretty hair (strangers actually stop me in the store/laundromat to talk to me about my hair). But I don't really have anything remotely nice below my neck.

And no I've never heard of "the heart that is meant to love you, will"...or at least not in those words. It just seems unfair when there are plenty of other girls my age that are much prettier, more emotionally mature, less needy, easier to communicate with, that don't have special dietary concerns (that'll make going on a dinner date a pain for people in the future...or the fact that if we want to eat the same food they would have to change their diet or we'd pretty much have to go to the restaurant I want to go to so I can have more than one choice on the menu) and other physical problems where I shouldn't be lifting/carrying things that are more than a few pounds—Even though I do right now because there's no one else to carry my groceries upstairs to my apartment, for example.

It's just if someone has a choice between a healthy, pretty girl with a nice body/skin that's interesting and intelligent enough to at least carry on a conversation, why would they choose the girl who isn't in the best health who only has a pretty face/hair, has intimacy issues, communication issues? I mean, I may be more interesting and intelligent than the vast majority of other girls, that's not what they're looking for—it's about looks. And how did I reach this conclusion? People didn't ever even give me a chance before I dyed my hair...I was the same person (interesting and intelligent) but no one cared until I had pretty hair, until I learned how to use make-up effectively (as in subtly enough to look natural, but accent all my best facial features).

I know no one has a perfect body when undressed, but I really doubt most people's bodies are bad enough to potentially be vomit-inducing.

This is where learning to communicate well, letting another person know your thoughts and feelings and listening to theirs, comes into play.

There has to be give and take in a relationship to accommodate different personal preferences. My husband likes Mexican food, I prefer seafood; sometimes we go to Don Pablo's when we go out to eat, other times he has a burger at the local seafood restaurant, but usually we go to an all-around sports bar that isn't so specialized in what it serves.

I understand what you are saying, I did not meet my husband until I was 34, did not marry him until I was 39. I was uncomfortable out on dates, even with men I was "fond" of/knew pretty well. I once had to leave a guy friend's house at 2:00 a.m., we were in his bed only sleeping, not fooling around or having sex and I was under no pressure, but I just couldn't do it, my own head/imagination was too busy with what I was "supposed" to be feeling and doing, etc. It took another 4-5 years for me to understand myself through therapy enough to trust myself in a relationship.

I am one of those posters, seeking intimacy with my wife, not necessarily sex. I want closeness, and openness. I am a very sensitive man and have never ever once made my wife or any girlfriend ever do anything she did not want to.

I agree with the other posters though, that when you are in a marriage, there is an expectation of faithfulness. Many women do not realize that part of being faithful is understanding both of each others needs and to be there for each other. That does mean that you should not deny yourself emotionally and physically from him, to do so is being unfaithful. Similarly he should not deny himself to your needs, whatever they may be. Denying each others needs is selfish, just like someone forming a relationship outside of the marriage. All of these behaviors do not help the relationship move forward.

Finally for the record, yes I am seeking intimacy with my wife, to be close to her and our family. I give everything in my life to her and my family, my money, my time, my help around the house... as does she, we do this for each other because we care about each other and love each other.

I have been married for 14 years now and we have been a committed couple for 20, more than half of our lives. I love her now more than ever and am more attracted to her today than when we first met. Intimacy to me is a validation of me as a man, as a husband, breadwinner, and dad. If my wife stopped being intimate with me all of the sudden, that would be as bad as cheating, period! Women have expectations from men, and vice versa....when you love someone, it's great to give them what makes them happy, whatever that may be.

When I met her we did not do any major sex acts for 9 months, we respected each other and we've grown sexually together. If a guy pressures you, you simply tell him you're not ready...if he does not respect that, he's the wrong guy. Period!

I rarely see a point in sharing my own thoughts and feelings because no one cares. Especially with a guy...I think I've met maybe one guy my age that actually listened to anything I said.

And when it comes to expectations, I'm sort of put off that I have to be held to higher standards. I mean, what do I expect from a guy? To not be listened to, to have my feelings laughed at or minimized, to be expected to not be allowed an opinion or that it won't matter as much as the guy's opinion. I expect to be used and thrown away like garbage the second anything better comes along...or literally any other girl.

So if a guy even treats me like a person, it way exceeds my expectations. And if he listens to me and/or respects me, I'm just wondering if he's trying to trick me into thinking that he respects me.

To just think about giving my virginity to someone who will just laugh at what I look like or who can't respect me without fear and intimidation (on my part), or doesn't really listen to me because who cares what the stupid cow thinks?! They only care when you make them care...as in they better listen to you if they want to stay alive and intact...to think about giving my virginity to a guy makes me angry. None of them deserve it. So why do I still occasionally get crushes on guys when this is what I expect? I don't know. But I was done even trying to date or even show interest in anyone (at least not guys because they get pissed if I do anyway) and then I met a guy that for a second thought that he legitimately listened to me and cared what I said. But he was too intimidated by me so I was afraid to say anything. And he's not in my life anymore. So that's it...even if I meet someone who can lower themselves enough to treat a girl equally, there's nothing more I can do. I can't tell them I like them because then they'll never talk to me again. Well, they'll never talk to me again anyway—I should be used to it by now.

You're not meeting the right men for you. A relationship is built upon mutual respect, and what you are describing is not respect. Not all men are like what you describe. On the flip side, there are plenty of women who are difficult to deal with as well.

You should enter a relationship with an open mind, without preconceived ideas of how men are, because everyone is different.

I think young men are not as capable of devotion to a single woman, until they hit a certain level of maturity. Don't give your virginity up until you trust a man completely, this takes months if you are together often. You will most likely know when you are ready.

I don't know how old you are, but in time you will mature as will men you seek.

I'm 25...it's really expected for me NOT to be a virgin at this point. Actually, it's sort of expected to be married by now or on the way to that point by dating. Most of the people I went to undergrad with got married out of college...people ask me why I've never dated anyone. And then they stopped asking because they all have realized that it isn't going to happen at this point.

Hopefully, soon, I can fill the void with a career that takes up all of my time and eventually afford a house and some cats.

((((IATE)))) I would truly encourage you to talk to a really good T that can help you see how lovely you are and how much you have to offer as a human being. I feel as if your expectations of how your life "should be", "who you should be" and "how you should conduct yourself in your life" have been muddled because of negative, hurtful, painful messages others (your family) have put on you.

It sounds as if you are being soo hard on yourself and for some reason, you believe that if you don't live up to a certain standard, no man could ever love or want to be around you.

There will always be women that we perceive as prettier, smarter, wealthier than we are. But these women really don't matter in the scheme of things. I can think of 10 celebrities offhand that most people consider beautiful (and therefore must have it all), but in reality, they are very unhappy. And seeing themselves as "human" is very difficult. They have such a hard time seeing themselves as lovely for who they are because of the pressures put on them from others. They get lost, too.

Btw, I was sooo pleased to read you mentioning your beautiful hair and that you like to experiment with cosmetics because that means you do appreciate things about yourself! If you asked me three years ago to name even one thing I found positive or nice about myself, I could not name one!

I want to go back to something I shared with you from the beginning of your thread (because I think the message may have became deluded and covered up with some major poppycock), honey, communication from the beginning is key. And you should never feel ashamed for how you feel. They are feelings afterall. When you choose to communicate important things to you, you will feel it when it is the right time.

YOU ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO TALK OR SHARE, KISS, HAVE INTIMATE RELATIONS WITH ANY MAN UNTIL YOU ARE READY. Day 1 to Day Eternity. You do not HAVE to do anything. If a person (man or woman doesnt understand, get that, they are not worth your time).

If he doesnt get that, or if he doesnt respect you, get rid of him. He is not a person you want to be with. You want to be with someone that you can talk to: about the good and not so good.

Someone that tries to guilt you into something is not a person that is of good quality: respectful, loving and caring. These are important features and non-negotiables we, as women, should expect from the men in our lives. We are not living in the dark ages. If a man thinks and acts like a neanderthal, he isnt the right one. Leave those types in the dust. Let them be left in the wake of your trail good-bye.
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Baby steps. You are just starting out, too. You may feel pressured because you are looking at what your peers are doing, but most likely than not, because they started out together so early, by the time they are in their 40s or so, things won't be so fabulous.

I hope you will speak with a T so you can find more good qualities about yourself! Because you have lots that we can see the important thing is that you see them, too. But start with yourself first.

Rose

Really like, what Rose says right here, about your peers!!

I don't know what, what happened to you, when you were younger did, but it clearly has shaped how you see your body. And I am so sorry that you went through that, it wasn't fair nor proper!

Have this friend, she's in her late 50's now. Was telling this bonding moment she had with her husband. (nothing graphic here, but telling and applies to this OP)

She told of how, after raising kids, becoming grandparents, life changes, body changes, they just stood in the mirror, saying, alright, these aren't our 18 year old bodies any more, but these are our bodies now. And we still love each other! (mind you, they've been married and together, since that young)

The heart that is meant to love you(kind of an urban, viral youtube vid, which spoke to many that I know have seen it)...that heart, that is meant to love you, will love the body that you are in! And, perhaps, learning to love your flaws, is a good way to work on yourself.

Adding in the Video Link, just shared it, down in Videos, Lyrics and Podcasts...

What really upsets me is that I did meet that guy who did actually listen to me and respected me, but I lost contact with him because I was afraid that he was afraid of me/didn't like me. I'm almost positive he's moved on. I'm afraid to find out 100% for sure. That and if he has and I tell him how I really feel, then he'll just feel bad.

Even if by chance I were to run into him again, unless he sees me I won't get to talk to him ever again, as I get too nervous and I just run away. It's been too long to just text him or call him out of the blue.

And if he had moved on/doesn't feel the same way (or never felt the same way) it would break me more than I already am. I'm afraid of what I'd do to myself—knowing how bad my self harm will get is scarier than the actual risk of rejection (and I'm terrified of rejection).

No you shouldn't be forced, but there are times one puts in an effort when they weren't originally in the mood...hence foreplay LOL!

Fearing rejection is real. Fearing getting hurt - again or more - is real. It is understandable.

That is why baby steps are so important. And having someone you can rely on and confide in and talk to is important when we are getting started on our journey to get better.

When we take baby steps, it is hard! Sometimes it doesnt work out the way we want it to. For instance, reaching out to someone from the past. There are many unknowns. We will never know, though, unless we try. And love, care is a gift!

Yes, he may have moved on, but he may not have. The point to remember is that you ran because you were afraid to tell him you were afraid! We are all scared. That is what courage is. To face the unknown when we are afraid!

So having a support system while we test the waters, until we are strong enough to give it a go on our own, is really helpful

Pain or hurt or having our ego bruised is a given in life. It is what we do with it and how we deal with it is the important thing.

I hear you. I hear that you are being super hard on yourself. I hear that you feel broken and dont want to take a risk that you will be crushed to no return if things dont work out as you hope. I understand that. I understand that completely. I have been there. It is not easy.

The main thing, honey, is that we have to give ourselves a break. We are human. We make mistakes. We have to forgive ourselves. Even if whatever it is that we think we have to forgive is was not ours to embrace in the first place (I think that comes from accepting all the blame and all the bs from our earlier lives that we bring into adulthood).

Again, I cant stress enough how much I think a good, caring T will help you resolve your past hurts and to help you move forward. Even if you are scared I hope you will look into it.

Move forward to what though? Who else is there going to be? I know it must sound weird, but he was such an anomaly that I honestly thought for a while that he was real and that I had been hallucinating very vividly (I wasn't stable at the time). I was afraid to ask anyone if he was real for obvious reasons. And I do think he is real, but still...there isn't anyone else like that. And especially not someone I'm attracted to because I'm very rarely attracted to men. That's why it's uncomfortable, I feel like the attraction is going to have to be forced. If someone were to like me, I couldn't say no. Why wouldn't I at least give them a chance...but then that means I have a fear of being liked by someone that I don't like.

That was it. That was my last chance. I had already decided to never like anyone ever again (or if I did, erase it as soon as possible and avoid the person), and I had decided that he was my last chance. And because I had also resolved to never express my feelings again, I never told him anything.

I'm not sure if you fully understand my fear of rejection...I didn't want to be graphic but I have a long history of self-harm and I will injure myself...probably very badly. And there's no one to take me to the hospital or call 911 if I need it. And except for my neighbor who borrows money from me...no one will come looking for me. I wouldn't be found for weeks...that's the worst part. Even friends that I hang out with on a regular basis wouldn't even think anything of it if they didn't hear from me for weeks. I don't have the support system to get back into contact with him...and people on here isn't enough, unfortunately. I need someone in person to make sure I won't hurt myself.

I do feel morally obligated to say, find a T to continue working through what brings you to SH. At some point, you may find yourself saying, enough is enough already with the abuse to self. You are worthy of getting there!

I believe it was Perna, in a recent post on this thread, that mentioned being in her 30's before meeting her now husband. 39 to get married.

I know, it seems pressing, in the minute, but there's something refreshing about getting into one's 30's, figuring out where you fit into the world, and then *poof*, secure in self, and along comes that special someone. I say, it's worth the wait.

Along the lines of what you've mentioned about 'when', there's no one else that will match this one, that you feel 'rejected' by.

Well, let me play out this little scenario.

What if?!

What if, right now, you are in need of developing who you are, resolving your personal demons and finding your place on this journey of life.

What if, right now, MR. IATE, is going through his own struggles and turmoils? What if, he and you aren't meant to be here, right here, right now, until you've both reached a point in life, where you enter each others lives, and can reflect back and say wow, we were both going through too much, at those times in our lives, that it would detract from the future of the relationship.
A point in life, where you can both appreciate having each other in it! Really, truly appreciate having each other in it.
What if, these struggles are all meant to develop you into the people you will become?

I have hope your MR. IATE is out there for you. Waiting for that special woman to come along, struggling with why isn't she here, right now? But what if he's also struggling with emotional stuff right now?

Imagine, two relatively healed souls coming together, in the future.

Just a thought, as I consider my own set of circumstances.

I too feel the same way: Please speak with a T if you are grappling with SH.

I wish you the best in your recovery and journey. We are here and we care

I only have a problem with self-harm if something triggers it. Usually, it's quite easy to avoid these triggers (i.e. don't get myself rejected). If I avoid the easily avoidable triggers then it's not a problem.

Besides, why should the girl do all the work asking people out? I thought guys general preferred to be the pursuer at least a good portion of the time. But they're too scared to approach me for anything other than friendly conversation every once in a while. They don't actually want to get to know me. They don't even want to be my friend. I have more in common with guys than I do girls. I never really fit in with a lot of girls my age either.

So if I'm apparently too horrible to hang out with even as friends with guys, then what chance do I have with one of them wanting to date me?