[Rostou]

One of the hardest things for me is how to respond to my long standing husband's negative reactions and ridicule and I would appreciate some ideas about this.

Today was the latest challenge on this and I didn't do well and I realized I'd better come back here after a long break and try again.

Basically what happens is that first, in a pleasant manner, I make a statement it seems he disagrees strongly with or that doesn't please him or I ask him to do something it seems from his reaction he doesn't feel like doing. Then he reacts, usually in a non-verbal & unfriendly way such as making a disgusted sound or, as it was tonight, throwing his head back in an exaggerated manner and making a charicature of ridiculing laughter.

I seem never to find the solution for how to deal with this and I need to. Can you help me solve this problem please?

[Rostou]

Originally Posted by Rostou

One of the hardest things for me is how to respond to my long standing husband's negative reactions and ridicule and I would appreciate some ideas about this.

Today was the latest challenge on this and I didn't do well and I realized I'd better come back here after a long break and try again.

Basically what happens is that first, in a pleasant manner, I make a statement it seems he disagrees strongly with or that doesn't please him or I ask him to do something it seems from his reaction he doesn't feel like doing. Then he reacts, usually in a non-verbal & unfriendly way such as making a disgusted sound or, as it was tonight, throwing his head back in an exaggerated manner and making a charicature of ridiculing laughter.

I seem never to find the solution for how to deal with this and I need to. Can you help me solve this problem please?

I should perhaps say more about this:

Today he called me a "piece of work" when I mentioned in a neutral manner that I needed him to contribute to our joint account to keep it in funds for when he is going to be away on a holiday. He went on to rage at me for a bit, angrily berating me.

One thing I am wondering is whether I should say something to name what he did as abusive and to say it isn't acceptable or whether I should just ignore what he said & go and do something else. I know there are various other options. But I am still confused by how to respond to his abuse and I tend to get upset and blank when he does it.

I've been with him for a long time & it never has been good for long. I don't know how I "survived" it this far and I am feeling as if I need to review everything & change what I can as I don't think I can take much more.

[TRNRMOM]

Originally Posted by Rostou

I should perhaps say more about this:

Today he called me a "piece of work" when I mentioned in a neutral manner that I needed him to contribute to our joint account to keep it in funds for when he is going to be away on a holiday. He went on to rage at me for a bit, angrily berating me.

One thing I am wondering is whether I should say something to name what he did as abusive and to say it isn't acceptable or whether I should just ignore what he said & go and do something else. I know there are various other options. But I am still confused by how to respond to his abuse and I tend to get upset and blank when he does it.

I've been with him for a long time & it never has been good for long. I don't know how I "survived" it this far and I am feeling as if I need to review everything & change what I can as I don't think I can take much more.

i've been married a 2nd time for 32 years; for me, i would never allow my husband to mock me or call me names, under any circumstances, nor would i even think about calling him names, etc. i'm guessing you've had it with his `comments' which you have probably allowed over time and i sense you no longer are willing to accept the comments. hubby and i have had a lot of counseling over the years (mainly about step-kids years ago) but in therapy we did learn how to communicate without hitting below the belt; maybe a session with a therapist might work, but regardless, we learned to keep our feelings in the `i' statement, i.e., `when you say i'm a piece of work' those statements make me feel unworthy and they really hurt me and i am asking that you not dismiss my feelings or mock me with facial expressions'....and i would keep hammering at him each time he mocks you by telling him how hurtful his statements/behavior are.....of course he'll respond that he was joking, and i would then explain that his jokes don't feel very good and they feel dismissive and hurtful. good luck.

This is abuse.

[Rostou]

Originally Posted by TRNRMOM

i've been married a 2nd time for 32 years; for me, i would never allow my husband to mock me or call me names, under any circumstances, nor would i even think about calling him names, etc. i'm guessing you've had it with his `comments' which you have probably allowed over time and i sense you no longer are willing to accept the comments. hubby and i have had a lot of counseling over the years (mainly about step-kids years ago) but in therapy we did learn how to communicate without hitting below the belt; maybe a session with a therapist might work, but regardless, we learned to keep our feelings in the `i' statement, i.e., `when you say i'm a piece of work' those statements make me feel unworthy and they really hurt me and i am asking that you not dismiss my feelings or mock me with facial expressions'....and i would keep hammering at him each time he mocks you by telling him how hurtful his statements/behavior are.....of course he'll respond that he was joking, and i would then explain that his jokes don't feel very good and they feel dismissive and hurtful. good luck.

Thank you very much for your reply TRNRMOM. I have been both unwell & very busy and couldn't reply here before now. But I did manage to see your reply hours ago and have been thinking deeply about what you said.

I agree that I should in future work hard to use "I" statements. I will have to do it carefully or he may take information from them to hurt me later. Sometimes his goal seems to be to hurt me. I'll be thinking about how to do that.

I'm glad your counselling helped. We have had it on a number of different occasions & I did learn important things. Unfortunately my husband didn't seem to learn and also he didn't engage in the sessions at a personal level and used the opportunity to blame me. Also he was very angry afterwards when I think I was just sharing how things were for me; he said things like "You couldn't wait to sink the boot in." One counsellor refused to see my husband again and we found two had cancelled on us when we turned up & this made my husband very angry & he wouldn't try counselling again after it happened a second time. I found that the exercises that were set to talk to each other at home were very scary because of how angry my husband got with me.

After your reply, I have resolved to review good communication methods and to try my best to master them and to ensure that I am living true to them.

[MickeyCheeky]

Really sorry you have to put up with this behavior.

[Rostou]

Originally Posted by justafriend306

This is abuse.

Yes.

He is very abusive a lot and is very controlling, manipulative, self centered, and cold unless he is working at me for something. I don't trust him. It seems to be true that he thinks what is his is his and what is mine he thinks should be his - but he doesn't see it like that; somehow to him everything is my fault.

Unfortunately I can't see my way clear to leave him. So I am trying to do the best I can and to see how I can minimize damage to me. I find all that a challenge. I have learned a lot over the years, but obviously not enough. I have read a lot of books on abuse.

[Rostou]

Originally Posted by MickeyCheeky

Really sorry you have to put up with this behavior.

Thanks MickeyCheeky

[TRNRMOM]

Originally Posted by Rostou

Thank you very much for your reply TRNRMOM. I have been both unwell & very busy and couldn't reply here before now. But I did manage to see your reply hours ago and have been thinking deeply about what you said.

I agree that I should in future work hard to use "I" statements. I will have to do it carefully or he may take information from them to hurt me later. Sometimes his goal seems to be to hurt me. I'll be thinking about how to do that.

I'm glad your counselling helped. We have had it on a number of different occasions & I did learn important things. Unfortunately my husband didn't seem to learn and also he didn't engage in the sessions at a personal level and used the opportunity to blame me. Also he was very angry afterwards when I think I was just sharing how things were for me; he said things like "You couldn't wait to sink the boot in." One counsellor refused to see my husband again and we found two had cancelled on us when we turned up & this made my husband very angry & he wouldn't try counselling again after it happened a second time. I found that the exercises that were set to talk to each other at home were very scary because of how angry my husband got with me.

After your reply, I have resolved to review good communication methods and to try my best to master them and to ensure that I am living true to them.

i've read your reply to me several times before this reply to you; my husband early on thought that it was me who needed fixing and he went willingly, only to find that he had to own much responsibility (mainly step-kid issues years ago) but if he and i found what i called a speed bump in our marriage and i suggested counseling for a third party to intervene, he went willingly and has always worked on trying to resolve our issues rather than blame. we went thru the mirroring exercises and i guess we love each other enough and want this marriage to last, that we both put forth the effort to resolve, with or without a therapist. it does not sound like your hubby is willing to put forth the effort of therapy after several therapists decided not to see him (that should be a major red flag) yet i do not feel it gives him license and free will to talk down to you, dismiss you, or treat you `less than' and prob. once you decide to confront him about his abusive words or actions (which might be new behavior on your part) his abusive statements and put downs will escalate; but i would never allow my husband to treat me this way and maybe if he doesn't like your unwillingness to take his ongoing abuse, well, then just walk away from him...go to another room and tell him you no longer will allow him to put you down, or if you need to leave the house, do so. he sounds like an angry man who doesn't want to be in the wrong or be told what to do, and he may never change...so it's up to you to decide whether you will continue to accept his words/actions, or find alternative ways to deal with him...maybe ask him how he would feel if you constantly criticized him about who he is as a man, a parent, a worker, a son, and get him to really think about that question; maybe in his past he was criticized by a parent growing up or gets criticized at work; i'm just throwing things out there but if you have children, he certainly isn't modeling good behavior and those children will pick up on the dynamics between you and him...keep me posted and good luck.

Abusive people rarely, if ever, change, and never own up to their abusive behavior. Confrontation will never work, and the abuse will only escalate. If you cannot leave the marriage, my best advice would be to walk away from him when he becomes this way towards you and to tell him that you will speak to him when he can be respectful. Then leave the room or the house. I am very sorry you have to put up with such behavior. (((((((Hugs)))))))))

[eskielover]

I was a fighter from my growing up years so when my H pulled crap on me at the beginning of the marriage (put down sarcasm) I threw it right back at him until I hated the way doing that made ME feel (I could have cared less about him after that) I finally had enough & told him to stop or GET OUT of my life.

He worked at changing that...took about a year if I remember right (1976). There were so many other issues the only way I tolerated him was by hiding away in my computer engineering career until aerospace crashed. Then I ended up financially trapped in the marriage but because I wasva fighter I counter attacked becausevhe made me so angry I was seeing red. I didnt understsnd at the time either but that was the real reason for all my suicide attempts. I really wanted out & there was no other way that I could see until my mom died 13 years later & I made sure the money stayed out of the household accounts untol I LEFT with it.

By that time I knew he was NEVER going to change & I had ENOUGH. I had no skills to deal withvhim other than fight back & that was a miserable life.

Looking back after being gone 10 years (still dealing with divorce (long story)) & wonder why I didnt leave when I financially could instead of tolerating that crap for 33 years. The last 13 years were separated & living in the same house which was even more miserable.

There will come a time when you will have had enough....only you will know when. I always wondered why it was so easy for others to get divorced & not me....but I found out when I finally left. It was him not wanting to look like a loser so he kept holding on & teying to make ut impossuble for me to leave until he finally had no control over the money I inherited from my mom.

Maybe that not yet will become a some day for you to.....but we are each individuals with our own tolerance levels....that is the bottom line....thatv& finances.

Your comment about putting money in the account was a sore subject with me too. I was on disabiluty so it paid bills. His company sent him on abtrip to italy & it just kept being extended. He didnt have his check auto deposited because of debt collectors. I ended up nit having money to pay the house payment of buy food because hevdidnt bother tobmake arrangements for getting his check to me before going on the trip. He thought my money could cover everything. I was angry with him for doing that & he wasvangry at me for being angry at him.

Gone 10 years & he has let his house go into foreclosure 2 times....one being right now because he forgot to make house payments for a year but diesnt have the money either.

Some marriages we are just better off leaving in our past & starting life over. I have never been happier even with the crap Im still dealing with in regards to him but the divorce light is at the end of the tunnel now

[Rostou]

Originally Posted by TRNRMOM

i've read your reply to me several times before this reply to you; my husband early on thought that it was me who needed fixing and he went willingly, only to find that he had to own much responsibility (mainly step-kid issues years ago) but if he and i found what i called a speed bump in our marriage and i suggested counseling for a third party to intervene, he went willingly and has always worked on trying to resolve our issues rather than blame. we went thru the mirroring exercises and i guess we love each other enough and want this marriage to last, that we both put forth the effort to resolve, with or without a therapist. it does not sound like your hubby is willing to put forth the effort of therapy after several therapists decided not to see him (that should be a major red flag) yet i do not feel it gives him license and free will to talk down to you, dismiss you, or treat you `less than' and prob. once you decide to confront him about his abusive words or actions (which might be new behavior on your part) his abusive statements and put downs will escalate; but i would never allow my husband to treat me this way and maybe if he doesn't like your unwillingness to take his ongoing abuse, well, then just walk away from him...go to another room and tell him you no longer will allow him to put you down, or if you need to leave the house, do so. he sounds like an angry man who doesn't want to be in the wrong or be told what to do, and he may never change...so it's up to you to decide whether you will continue to accept his words/actions, or find alternative ways to deal with him...maybe ask him how he would feel if you constantly criticized him about who he is as a man, a parent, a worker, a son, and get him to really think about that question; maybe in his past he was criticized by a parent growing up or gets criticized at work; i'm just throwing things out there but if you have children, he certainly isn't modeling good behavior and those children will pick up on the dynamics between you and him...keep me posted and good luck.

Thank you again TRNRMOM.

You understand a lot. Of course I have to explain my side & you know that and I am glad of that and I will explain more.

There is one thing I should have explained in my last reply: I have often spoken up to him as well as freezing up in shock, fear & ignorance. So I am not totally passive. At times I can even make a stand and tell him so or insist on doing what I think I should (he doesn't like that as he wants me to obey him & has said so and has said he is head of the household - note, he is not religious at all though, but I am.) I have had to work on being assertive with him & I suddenly realized that the morning after the wedding when he was very nasty to me (but I couldn't work out why). I have had a lot of fear about talking to or dealing with him and have had to work on that. He is very judgmental, punitive & sure his perspective is the one truth. He sits on grievances because I have opposed him & can retaliate. He does not talk openly & work as a team. He would have made me have a nothing life if I had let him. There is so much I could say.

He often says things that seem very inaccurate to me but he is very sure about himself. He has woven stories & scripts about me that are not true or are skewed away from reality & aren't updated over the decades of our marriage and that he keeps bringing up to justify a claim he is making about me such as that I don't want to contribute financially. He says them to me even though I know what is the truth. Maybe he fabricates what happened and doesn't realize that he does? But, though I know they are false, somehow I come to doubt my truth and my self confidence is constantly shaken. But I have come a long way in not trying to explain to him as that never works and also leaves me vulnerable to his emotional attacks and diversions.

His patterns of behaviour are typical of what is described in books on abuse such as by Lundy Bancroft and Patricia Evans and more recent ones. I have quite a library of abuse books and am currently rereading them more intensively again now that I have retired & have more time. The more balanced ones can be such a help.

About the matter of saying things that impact on him, I am not sure that I generally have much impact. Mostly I have to go ahead and do things he doesn't want me to do in matters that seem to indicate to me that that is what I should do. But I can have an impact such as when he was yelling at our first child when he was teething for the first time & very upset. My husband started shouting "Shut up" repeatedly at him & I just locked down & faced him off & told him the fact & that he was behaving wrongly. He did stop doing that and actually was a big help in carry him around & patting him, etc.

I am often am so confused about him because I don't know if he is autistic or anti-social. But his behaviour certainly has many negative attributes and I know I "inherited" him like this. His family has related issued in different presentations & combinations. His oldest brother seems to have made it his mission to torment me. I think he is just a jerk.

My children are all in their twenties and, yes, they have been negatively affected. He does a lot for them as has always been the case, making them dependent and the more selfish ones just use him. He has put me on the sidelines with the children. When they were young, he wanted me to be their servant and now he wants me to be his servant. But at the same time I am glad they have his assistance such as with cars & household maintenance. I think our son may be becoming selfish like him & he also can be unpleasant but not abusive. They are all pretty selfish actually & I have had to let go & settle for what good goes on.

Apart from my being busy & unwell now, a problem in my communicating with this site is that we are in opposite time zones.

[Rostou]

Originally Posted by eskielover

I was a fighter from my growing up years so when my H pulled crap on me at the beginning of the marriage (put down sarcasm) I threw it right back at him until I hated the way doing that made ME feel (I could have cared less about him after that) I finally had enough & told him to stop or GET OUT of my life.

He worked at changing that...took about a year if I remember right (1976). There were so many other issues the only way I tolerated him was by hiding away in my computer engineering career until aerospace crashed. Then I ended up financially trapped in the marriage but because I wasva fighter I counter attacked becausevhe made me so angry I was seeing red. I didnt understsnd at the time either but that was the real reason for all my suicide attempts. I really wanted out & there was no other way that I could see until my mom died 13 years later & I made sure the money stayed out of the household accounts untol I LEFT with it.

By that time I knew he was NEVER going to change & I had ENOUGH. I had no skills to deal withvhim other than fight back & that was a miserable life.

Looking back after being gone 10 years (still dealing with divorce (long story)) & wonder why I didnt leave when I financially could instead of tolerating that crap for 33 years. The last 13 years were separated & living in the same house which was even more miserable.

There will come a time when you will have had enough....only you will know when. I always wondered why it was so easy for others to get divorced & not me....but I found out when I finally left. It was him not wanting to look like a loser so he kept holding on & teying to make ut impossuble for me to leave until he finally had no control over the money I inherited from my mom.

Maybe that not yet will become a some day for you to.....but we are each individuals with our own tolerance levels....that is the bottom line....thatv& finances.

Your comment about putting money in the account was a sore subject with me too. I was on disabiluty so it paid bills. His company sent him on abtrip to italy & it just kept being extended. He didnt have his check auto deposited because of debt collectors. I ended up nit having money to pay the house payment of buy food because hevdidnt bother tobmake arrangements for getting his check to me before going on the trip. He thought my money could cover everything. I was angry with him for doing that & he wasvangry at me for being angry at him.

Gone 10 years & he has let his house go into foreclosure 2 times....one being right now because he forgot to make house payments for a year but diesnt have the money either.

Some marriages we are just better off leaving in our past & starting life over. I have never been happier even with the crap Im still dealing with in regards to him but the divorce light is at the end of the tunnel now

Thanks eskielover.

There certainly are big similarities between your story and mine. I am sorry you went through all that.

That quote at the bottom of your posts made me think - my husband has malice AND lack or empathy, understanding, etc. Sometimes he does things that help & which I am grateful for. His doing it confusing me, especially as he can be so cold and vicious as well as sneakily abusive.

I can relate to feeling trapped because of finances. I was also trapped because of the children & pets & now I feel trapped for other reasons. But I now have a legacy from my parents & I am hanging onto that though my husband want to dip into it for bills & gets very angry & blaming at me when I won't do that. I see it as my security though it is still far less than his assets. He was getting overpoweringly & scarily demanding when I had that money just in a bank account I could have drawn on anytime. He was really standing over me & bullying me. Things have eased off since I have made it less accessible but he remains pretty resentful. However I do contribute a fair bit fortnightly from a government payment i get. I hope this makes enough sense. I may be in a different country to you and there is so much more I could say.

I appreciate your replying & the increased insight I got. However I don't think it is just a simple matter to leave him though I have more choice to do so now that I have my nest egg. I am adamant about keeping that legacy and I have tried to explain frankly why i need to. But he just comes back at me angrily and sometimes in waves of raging tirades and untruths about me - the you, you, you stuff.

[Rostou]

Originally Posted by golden_eve

Abusive people rarely, if ever, change, and never own up to their abusive behavior. Confrontation will never work, and the abuse will only escalate. If you cannot leave the marriage, my best advice would be to walk away from him when he becomes this way towards you and to tell him that you will speak to him when he can be respectful. Then leave the room or the house. I am very sorry you have to put up with such behavior. (((((((Hugs)))))))))

Thanks golden_eve.

I am wondering if I should do more of being silent & just going elsewhere.

Years ago I first explained to him that I wasn't going to argue with him and would just move to do something else if he did that. Then I did that. He likes to hook me into an argument. I don't argue but he does, turning it into drama, diversions & sheer nonsense & put downs & lack of respect. It's as if he is waging a dirty war on me. I try to stick to that but sometimes I slip back into thinking "If only I explain he has got it wrong..." but that is just a trap and a sure way to hell and suffering.

I have tried to focus on his being respectful and other things that would help. There is no guarantee except the probability he will behave badly or irrationally & making me feel I am in a tornado. But I guess I could just put my boundary out there & not be lulled into giving it up.

[eskielover]

I am often am so confused about him because I don't know if he is autistic or anti-social.

oh my gosh, after I talked to my first T after leaving my H the first thing he said was that from my behavior descriptions it sounded exactly like my H has Asperger's. I read the book by Tony Attwood "The Complete Guide to Aspergers Syndrome" & there wasn't one thing in the book that didnt describe my H.

I would ask him avquestion & instead of saying "I don't know I need to look it up", he would tell me something he KNEW IN HIS HEAD to be the truth but was as far from the truth & realith as one can get. They wete ALL LIES that he was 100%sure was the truth because he thought it.

His behavior was totally passive aggressive probably because I have a very strong personality (till depression hit, then I just fought with him). He would hear what I asked because I made him repeat what I told him & what he understood he was told.....& say, no problem then never do what he was asked. When asked why his favorite childish response was ALWAYS "I dont know".

I told him when I was in the hospital that he only did things because he knew it was the right thing to do, but he did things with absolutly NO FEELING.

I swore His behavior was very narcissistic & abusive.

Reading about Aspergers, thst is exactly how partners feel who are married to some people with Aspergers. But the important thing to always remember is that everyone on the spectrum is different. Though the symptoms are similar, each person has a different way of showing them depending on their personality.

Oh yes, H always thought he was right. The problem was that he married a wife who also ended up being a computer design engineer just like him. So I was just as smart, more determined & worked harder to succeed than he did. He always felt like he was owed raises & promotions for not being capable of doing what was required. He would whine to me about it but working in the same industry & for awhile, the same company I KNEW exactly what wasgoing on & called him on it instead of being the wife that just said "poor baby, they are si unfair to you", i woukd tell him EXACTLY why he was being treated the way he was. I had no idea he had Aspergers at the time so I just pointed out his behaviors that were causing the problem. Which obviously he didnt want to hear.

By the end (33years) he finally realized I akways knew what I was tslking about IF I said something....i had researched & KNEW what I was sayibg or I wouldnt say anything.

I ALWAYS expected him to be a team member of the marriage. He thought all he had to do was work & brong home money. I did that equally so I expected & forced him to do things. At times I just totally refused to do anything for him when he pulled his attitude on me.

Our marriage was totally adversarial from the beginning. He never could communicate & was always emotionally immature & totally lacking. Looking back I realize there was never live there from the beginning & I had lost respect for him just before the wedding when I wanted to cancel but was encouraged by my mom that he would grow up & become more responsible. Something he NEVER did & still at the age of 65 has never grown up but he never wanted to either

The thing with marriage is that if there is no respect for the other person, love will NEVER grow only resentment, distrust & anger. Its what I toletated for too long because I couldnt see it when I was in the middle of it. Not till I got out & could safely look back.

Oh yes, after H lost his engineering career he wanted me to give him a big chunk of my inheritance yo go back to UCLA & get a certificate in some sprt of computer field. This was after je complained that he wasnt successful because he hadnt gone to Cal Tec & graduated from there instead of a Calif State University. I told him to research the certificate program & see ehat companies were hiring people with that certificate & what kind of career it actually was. He refused & I refused tp give him the money. He expected everything he wanted to be handed to him & got angry & blamed the people for his failures who wouldnt hand him what he wanted because he did nothing to earn it.

He seriously married the wrong woman because I was more than his equal something he didnt grasp for awhile until he realized & wasnt his mom & wasnt about to treat him like the little irresponsible boy he wanted to by while trying tobrole play being a grownup.

When we are treated with disrespect it is next to impossible to return that treatment with respect. I never could & honestly I never wanted to. I wasvthe kind of personality that said....oh, yku want a fight...."bring it on cause you will lose". Definitely NOT the way a marriage could ever work.

Even with some marriage counseling with the T we were both seeing there was no way of resolving the issues. There never was.

[TRNRMOM]

Originally Posted by rostou

thank you again trnrmom.

You understand a lot. Of course i have to explain my side & you know that and i am glad of that and i will explain more.

I am so saddened and angered on so many different levels

there is one thing i should have explained in my last reply: I have often spoken up to him as well as freezing up in shock, fear & ignorance.

What a horrible existence (i certainly cannot perceive this as a loving marriage/partnership) to freeze up, feel fear or ignorant

so i am not totally passive. At times i can even make a stand and tell him so or insist on doing what i think i should (he doesn't like that as he wants me to obey him & has said so and has said he is head of the household - note, he is not religious at all though, but i am.)
he sure feels that head of household makes him right; where did this come from: It sounds like this is a dynamic he learned early on,possibly seeing his dad abuse mom and she was compliant????

I have had to work on being assertive with him & i suddenly realized that the morning after the wedding when he was very nasty to me (but i couldn't work out why). I have had a lot of fear about talking to or dealing with him and have had to work on that. He is very judgmental, punitive & sure his perspective is the one truth.
So very sorry this is your existence

he sits on grievances because i have opposed him & can retaliate. He does not talk openly & work as a team. He would have made me have a nothing life if i had let him. There is so much i could say.

Again, it seems after all these yrs. He cannot or will not change and only you have made changes in your reactions to him...i can only imagine the stress you are dealing with and i hope you are seeing a therapist or at least have a support system of friends or family that you can turn to

he often says things that seem very inaccurate to me but he is very sure about himself. He has woven stories & scripts about me that are not true or are skewed away from reality & aren't updated over the decades of our marriage and that he keeps bringing up to justify a claim he is making about me such as that i don't want to contribute financially. He says them to me even though i know what is the truth. Maybe he fabricates what happened and doesn't realize that he does? But, though i know they are false, somehow i come to doubt my truth and my self confidence is constantly shaken.

He really knows how to manipulate you into doubting your truth and reality...no wonder your self confidence is shaken

but i have come a long way in not trying to explain to him as that never works and also leaves me vulnerable to his emotional attacks and diversions.

I'm just shaking my head;just reading what you write seems to me that he has diminished your self confidence to such an extent that you really do not have an alternative but to remain with this bully and walk on emotional landmines that he leaves for you to navigate...

His patterns of behaviour are typical of what is described in books on abuse such as by lundy bancroft and patricia evans and more recent ones. I have quite a library of abuse books and am currently rereading them more intensively again now that i have retired & have more time. The more balanced ones can be such a help.

Yet all the information in the books isn't going to change him...again, as others have written re your post, only you know whether you should leave, when you should, etc. And maybe you are just surviving in this marriage but getting little or no benefit from it...

About the matter of saying things that impact on him, i am not sure that i generally have much impact. Mostly i have to go ahead and do things he doesn't want me to do in matters that seem to indicate to me that that is what i should do. But i can have an impact such as when he was yelling at our first child when he was teething for the first time & very upset. My husband started shouting "shut up" repeatedly at him & i just locked down & faced him off & told him the fact & that he was behaving wrongly. He did stop doing that and actually was a big help in carry him around & patting him, etc.

Again, am so saddened and shocked to read this; those red flags were there many yrs. Ago and there certainly is in my opinion an imbalance comparing the good in him to the evil in him

i am often am so confused about him because i don't know if he is autistic or anti-social. But his behaviour certainly has many negative attributes and i know i "inherited" him like this. His family has related issued in different presentations & combinations. His oldest brother seems to have made it his mission to torment me. I think he is just a jerk.

So you have other family members who also abuse/torment you???

My children are all in their twenties and, yes, they have been negatively affected. He does a lot for them as has always been the case, making them dependent and the more selfish ones just use him. He has put me on the sidelines with the children. When they were young, he wanted me to be their servant and now he wants me to be his servant.

Interesting way you describe servant..now he's got his adult kids to carry on with the same abusive behavior as their dad; i wouldn't doubt that they will choose women whom they can abuse and bully but hopefully they might say: I'd never treat a woman the way my dad has treated my mom

but at the same time i am glad they have his assistance such as with cars & household maintenance. I think our son may be becoming selfish like him & he also can be unpleasant but not abusive. They are all pretty selfish actually & i have had to let go & settle for what good goes on.

So sad, but not shocked to read that dad's legacy has been passed on

apart from my being busy & unwell now, a problem in my communicating with this site is that we are in opposite time zones.

of course you are unwell but i read this site several times a day as i'm retired and have the time to respond...

But even tho i can only empathasize and reply to written words which might get misinterpreted, i can only ask: Are you a victim or a volunteer????????

I wish you only the best.

[TRNRMOM]

Originally Posted by rostou

thank you again trnrmom.

You understand a lot. Of course i have to explain my side & you know that and i am glad of that and i will explain more.

I am so saddened and angered on so many different levels

there is one thing i should have explained in my last reply: I have often spoken up to him as well as freezing up in shock, fear & ignorance.

What a horrible existence (i certainly cannot perceive this as a loving marriage/partnership) to freeze up, feel fear or ignorant

so i am not totally passive. At times i can even make a stand and tell him so or insist on doing what i think i should (he doesn't like that as he wants me to obey him & has said so and has said he is head of the household - note, he is not religious at all though, but i am.)
he sure feels that head of household makes him right; where did this come from: It sounds like this is a dynamic he learned early on,possibly seeing his dad abuse mom and she was compliant????

I have had to work on being assertive with him & i suddenly realized that the morning after the wedding when he was very nasty to me (but i couldn't work out why). I have had a lot of fear about talking to or dealing with him and have had to work on that. He is very judgmental, punitive & sure his perspective is the one truth.
So very sorry this is your existence

he sits on grievances because i have opposed him & can retaliate. He does not talk openly & work as a team. He would have made me have a nothing life if i had let him. There is so much i could say.

Again, it seems after all these yrs. He cannot or will not change and only you have made changes in your reactions to him...i can only imagine the stress you are dealing with and i hope you are seeing a therapist or at least have a support system of friends or family that you can turn to

he often says things that seem very inaccurate to me but he is very sure about himself. He has woven stories & scripts about me that are not true or are skewed away from reality & aren't updated over the decades of our marriage and that he keeps bringing up to justify a claim he is making about me such as that i don't want to contribute financially. He says them to me even though i know what is the truth. Maybe he fabricates what happened and doesn't realize that he does? But, though i know they are false, somehow i come to doubt my truth and my self confidence is constantly shaken.

He really knows how to manipulate you into doubting your truth and reality...no wonder your self confidence is shaken

but i have come a long way in not trying to explain to him as that never works and also leaves me vulnerable to his emotional attacks and diversions.

I'm just shaking my head;just reading what you write seems to me that he has diminished your self confidence to such an extent that you really do not have an alternative but to remain with this bully and walk on emotional landmines that he leaves for you to navigate...

His patterns of behaviour are typical of what is described in books on abuse such as by lundy bancroft and patricia evans and more recent ones. I have quite a library of abuse books and am currently rereading them more intensively again now that i have retired & have more time. The more balanced ones can be such a help.

Yet all the information in the books isn't going to change him...again, as others have written re your post, only you know whether you should leave, when you should, etc. And maybe you are just surviving in this marriage but getting little or no benefit from it...

About the matter of saying things that impact on him, i am not sure that i generally have much impact. Mostly i have to go ahead and do things he doesn't want me to do in matters that seem to indicate to me that that is what i should do. But i can have an impact such as when he was yelling at our first child when he was teething for the first time & very upset. My husband started shouting "shut up" repeatedly at him & i just locked down & faced him off & told him the fact & that he was behaving wrongly. He did stop doing that and actually was a big help in carry him around & patting him, etc.

Again, am so saddened and shocked to read this; those red flags were there many yrs. Ago and there certainly is in my opinion an imbalance comparing the good in him to the evil in him

i am often am so confused about him because i don't know if he is autistic or anti-social. But his behaviour certainly has many negative attributes and i know i "inherited" him like this. His family has related issued in different presentations & combinations. His oldest brother seems to have made it his mission to torment me. I think he is just a jerk.

So you have other family members who also abuse/torment you???

My children are all in their twenties and, yes, they have been negatively affected. He does a lot for them as has always been the case, making them dependent and the more selfish ones just use him. He has put me on the sidelines with the children. When they were young, he wanted me to be their servant and now he wants me to be his servant.

Interesting way you describe servant..now he's got his adult kids to carry on with the same abusive behavior as their dad; i wouldn't doubt that they will choose women whom they can abuse and bully but hopefully they might say: I'd never treat a woman the way my dad has treated my mom

but at the same time i am glad they have his assistance such as with cars & household maintenance. I think our son may be becoming selfish like him & he also can be unpleasant but not abusive. They are all pretty selfish actually & i have had to let go & settle for what good goes on.

I'VE ANSWERED AND RESPONDED WITHIN YOUR POSTING WITH ALL CAPS BUT IT DIDN'T SHOW UP IN CAPS SO HOPEFULLY YOU'RE READ MY COMMENTS WHICH ARE WITHIN YOURS, IF THIS MAKES ANY SENSE. BELOW IS JUST A SMALL PORTION OF MY RESPONSES...THE REST ARE IN THE BODY PORTION OF WHAT YOU WROTE ABOVE.

So sad, but not shocked to read that dad's legacy has been passed on

apart from my being busy & unwell now, a problem in my communicating with this site is that we are in opposite time zones.

of course you are unwell but i read this site several times a day as i'm retired and have the time to respond...

But even tho i can only empathasize and reply to written words which might get misinterpreted, i can only ask: Are you a victim or a volunteer????????

I wish you only the best.

[Rostou]

Originally Posted by eskielover

oh my gosh, after I talked to my first T after leaving my H the first thing he said was that from my behavior descriptions it sounded exactly like my H has Asperger's. I read the book by Tony Attwood "The Complete Guide to Aspergers Syndrome" & there wasn't one thing in the book that didnt describe my H.

I would ask him avquestion & instead of saying "I don't know I need to look it up", he would tell me something he KNEW IN HIS HEAD to be the truth but was as far from the truth & realith as one can get. They wete ALL LIES that he was 100%sure was the truth because he thought it.

His behavior was totally passive aggressive probably because I have a very strong personality (till depression hit, then I just fought with him). He would hear what I asked because I made him repeat what I told him & what he understood he was told.....& say, no problem then never do what he was asked. When asked why his favorite childish response was ALWAYS "I dont know".

I told him when I was in the hospital that he only did things because he knew it was the right thing to do, but he did things with absolutly NO FEELING.

I swore His behavior was very narcissistic & abusive.

Reading about Aspergers, thst is exactly how partners feel who are married to some people with Aspergers. But the important thing to always remember is that everyone on the spectrum is different. Though the symptoms are similar, each person has a different way of showing them depending on their personality.

Oh yes, H always thought he was right. The problem was that he married a wife who also ended up being a computer design engineer just like him. So I was just as smart, more determined & worked harder to succeed than he did. He always felt like he was owed raises & promotions for not being capable of doing what was required. He would whine to me about it but working in the same industry & for awhile, the same company I KNEW exactly what wasgoing on & called him on it instead of being the wife that just said "poor baby, they are si unfair to you", i woukd tell him EXACTLY why he was being treated the way he was. I had no idea he had Aspergers at the time so I just pointed out his behaviors that were causing the problem. Which obviously he didnt want to hear.

By the end (33years) he finally realized I akways knew what I was tslking about IF I said something....i had researched & KNEW what I was sayibg or I wouldnt say anything.

I ALWAYS expected him to be a team member of the marriage. He thought all he had to do was work & brong home money. I did that equally so I expected & forced him to do things. At times I just totally refused to do anything for him when he pulled his attitude on me.

Our marriage was totally adversarial from the beginning. He never could communicate & was always emotionally immature & totally lacking. Looking back I realize there was never live there from the beginning & I had lost respect for him just before the wedding when I wanted to cancel but was encouraged by my mom that he would grow up & become more responsible. Something he NEVER did & still at the age of 65 has never grown up but he never wanted to either

The thing with marriage is that if there is no respect for the other person, love will NEVER grow only resentment, distrust & anger. Its what I toletated for too long because I couldnt see it when I was in the middle of it. Not till I got out & could safely look back.

Oh yes, after H lost his engineering career he wanted me to give him a big chunk of my inheritance yo go back to UCLA & get a certificate in some sprt of computer field. This was after je complained that he wasnt successful because he hadnt gone to Cal Tec & graduated from there instead of a Calif State University. I told him to research the certificate program & see ehat companies were hiring people with that certificate & what kind of career it actually was. He refused & I refused tp give him the money. He expected everything he wanted to be handed to him & got angry & blamed the people for his failures who wouldnt hand him what he wanted because he did nothing to earn it.

He seriously married the wrong woman because I was more than his equal something he didnt grasp for awhile until he realized & wasnt his mom & wasnt about to treat him like the little irresponsible boy he wanted to by while trying tobrole play being a grownup.

When we are treated with disrespect it is next to impossible to return that treatment with respect. I never could & honestly I never wanted to. I wasvthe kind of personality that said....oh, yku want a fight...."bring it on cause you will lose". Definitely NOT the way a marriage could ever work.

Even with some marriage counseling with the T we were both seeing there was no way of resolving the issues. There never was.

Oh, the pain & difficulty of it all. Such experiences are far from pleasant as you and I both know.

[Rostou]

Originally Posted by TRNRMOM

of course you are unwell but i read this site several times a day as i'm retired and have the time to respond...

But even tho i can only empathasize and reply to written words which might get misinterpreted, i can only ask: Are you a victim or a volunteer????????

I wish you only the best.

Thanks a million TRNRMOM. I had no problem in working out which were your replies and I am grateful for all the work you put into that. There is a lot to ponder in what you said.

I am not sure how to respond to your question about whether I am a victim of a volunteer. I think that is because it confuses me and this is about me & where I am. I'll work on it.

[TRNRMOM]

Originally Posted by Rostou

Thanks a million TRNRMOM. I had no problem in working out which were your replies and I am grateful for all the work you put into that. There is a lot to ponder in what you said.

I am not sure how to respond to your question about whether I am a victim of a volunteer. I think that is because it confuses me and this is about me & where I am. I'll work on it.

i've returned from errands and saw you responded. i know every relationship is different and we all have different reasons for staying or leaving....and you certainly have received many heartfelt responses from others...i interpret that you have decided to stay and are trying to figure out the best way to survive; no way are you thriving and finding any type of happiness under these long-standing marital issues which don't seem to get resolved since he shows no indication that he wants to resolve/change/give you some piece of mind and this behavior has been repeated and ongoing for many years...i do ask if you are a volunteer or victim (you may be both) as i don't see any indication that you desire to leave and are asking for encouragement from us anonymous posters...how horrid (from my standpoint and perception) is that it seems you are wanting to figure out how you can best manage HIS behavior, all the while giving up more of your self-esteem and confidence from someone who always seems to keep you guarded and off guard...there's some kind of payoff in this dynamic between you two (and i'm certainly no therapist but have had a lot of therapy). i do not know how you can live like this but i offer you only support and hugs cause there is no way i would allow a man, especially a man who is my husband, to treat me `less than' for so many many years...so on that level, you are a lot stronger than me to put up with such abusive behavior and now watching your kids becoming him...seems like such a tragedy.

[Rostou]

Originally Posted by TRNRMOM

i've returned from errands and saw you responded. i know every relationship is different and we all have different reasons for staying or leaving....and you certainly have received many heartfelt responses from others...i interpret that you have decided to stay and are trying to figure out the best way to survive; no way are you thriving and finding any type of happiness under these long-standing marital issues which don't seem to get resolved since he shows no indication that he wants to resolve/change/give you some piece of mind and this behavior has been repeated and ongoing for many years...i do ask if you are a volunteer or victim (you may be both) as i don't see any indication that you desire to leave and are asking for encouragement from us anonymous posters...how horrid (from my standpoint and perception) is that it seems you are wanting to figure out how you can best manage HIS behavior, all the while giving up more of your self-esteem and confidence from someone who always seems to keep you guarded and off guard...there's some kind of payoff in this dynamic between you two (and i'm certainly no therapist but have had a lot of therapy). i do not know how you can live like this but i offer you only support and hugs cause there is no way i would allow a man, especially a man who is my husband, to treat me `less than' for so many many years...so on that level, you are a lot stronger than me to put up with such abusive behavior and now watching your kids becoming him...seems like such a tragedy.

Thanks for replying again, TRNRMOM.

I don't understand those terms, "victim" or "volunteer". I'm not in the US. Maybe these terms are easily understood there and I'm thinking they might have a subtext that I also can't have an idea about. So I can't talk to these terms.

Rather, I think I can best talk from my own reality, as I understand it. And the fact is that I am choosing (volunteering?) to stay with my husband. I have worked hard at achieving a reasonable level of self understanding and making of wise choices. I can't really know how well I have succeeded in this.

In response to a comment you made, I should clarify that I didn't come here "asking for encouragement from us anonymous posters", not how I understand "encouragement" anyway. I came clear in my mind about looking for coping strategies suitable for a person in my situation. I feel sure that there are some relevant good strategies that would help and that is what I am after. I have already learned a lot that I could pass on to somebody who is less experienced & knowlegeable in such matters, but I know I could, theoretically speaking, learn more myself & that doing so might well help me.

And I am not "wanting to figure out how you can best manage HIS behavior." I understand that that is not likely to happen and it is misguided, as Alanon teaches. I don't think I am codependent.

I could use my being unwell as an analogy. Right now I am experiencing a vicious series of cycles of severe arthritic inflammation. A reasonable goal of mine is to come to understand the nature of this process and to do the best I can. An option is not to kill this body that is giving me these challenges. And there are some beneficial things I can do to help myself. Perhaps my approach is covered by The Serenity Prayer & which I think is a profoundly wise guide:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
forever in the next.
Amen. (Reinhold Neibhur)

[eskielover]

Honestly there is no magical good solution because it is within you.

You know what youvare willing to tolerate. You know what behaviors your H respondes to well & what he doesnt so if you have decided thst staying in an abusive marriage is what you want for yourself then it is ALL up to you to take on the behaviors that work in your environment. YOU need to adapt your values to him & remind yourself that you really dint care how you are treated because staying is more important to you than anything else in life.

Oh yes, I had health issues when I wasvin my marriage too. Got news for you. Stress tears down your immune system & causes us all kinds of health crap to go on in our bodies which traps us to them even more. I had times when I had a reaction to meds thst I couldnt even walk by myself. I wondered when I finally left him if I could ever take care of myself alone because I had never lived by myself ever in my 54 years of life.

Funny thing I have been healthier sonce I left him than ever before in my life too. Sometimes the limiting reasons we place on our life hurt more than help.

Like I said ONLY you can figure outwhat you have to do in your own situation to make it tolerable enough for your own self since that IS WHAT YOU WANT for your life. Not living there we cant tell you the best way to react....only YOU know that & only you can do what is necessary to manage & feel the way you want to feel while accepting that you are just in an abusive marriage.

Lol, if one were to take the serenity prayer literally the way you seem to want to, one could say im not going to stop drinking because they feel it is something they could NOT possibly change in themselves so just accept it as a hardship & their pathway to peace.

Chosing to live in an abusive marriage & thinking its a hardship that leads to a pathway of peace. Sometimes TRUSTING that He (God) will make all things right takes ACTION on our part to do what we are led to do to MAKE IT RIGHT. When a door is opened, dont slam it shut because in your thinking you dont believe that door leads to ehere things are being made right. In other words dont limit yoyr thinking to other solutions than having to stay in an abusive marriage...by staying you may NOT be surrendering to His will.

But only you can figure outvwhat you can to to make it so you can tolerate where you are. Change your thinking & attitude about the situation you are in so you dont care how you are being treated. About the only possible way to numb yourself to an abusive situation.

[unaluna]

"The wisdom to know the difference" - thats the kicker in the Serenity Prayer.

I would be concerned that you continue to be safe, whether you stay or go. Sometimes husbands dont want to be nice, as they think that shows weakness, then become enraged when a wife wants to leave.

[TRNRMOM]

Originally Posted by Rostou

Thanks for replying again, TRNRMOM.

I don't understand those terms, "victim" or "volunteer". I'm not in the US. Maybe these terms are easily understood there and I'm thinking they might have a subtext that I also can't have an idea about. So I can't talk to these terms.

Rather, I think I can best talk from my own reality, as I understand it. And the fact is that I am choosing (volunteering?) to stay with my husband. I have worked hard at achieving a reasonable level of self understanding and making of wise choices. I can't really know how well I have succeeded in this.

In response to a comment you made, I should clarify that I didn't come here "asking for encouragement from us anonymous posters", not how I understand "encouragement" anyway. I came clear in my mind about looking for coping strategies suitable for a person in my situation. I feel sure that there are some relevant good strategies that would help and that is what I am after. I have already learned a lot that I could pass on to somebody who is less experienced & knowlegeable in such matters, but I know I could, theoretically speaking, learn more myself & that doing so might well help me.

And I am not "wanting to figure out how you can best manage HIS behavior." I understand that that is not likely to happen and it is misguided, as Alanon teaches. I don't think I am codependent.

I could use my being unwell as an analogy. Right now I am experiencing a vicious series of cycles of severe arthritic inflammation. A reasonable goal of mine is to come to understand the nature of this process and to do the best I can. An option is not to kill this body that is giving me these challenges. And there are some beneficial things I can do to help myself. Perhaps my approach is covered by The Serenity Prayer & which I think is a profoundly wise guide:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
forever in the next.
Amen. (Reinhold Neibhur)

i understand the serenity prayer as i used to be an alcohol/drug abuse counselor many years ago and went to many 12 step meetings. i probably did use the wrong words when i stated you were looking for `encouragement' from other posters and you have restated that you are merely asking for coping strategies which seems to indicated your decision is to remain married to this abusive man.

i've read what others have posted in response to your posting and i can only tell you that the very last paragraph of eskielover's most recent reply says it all.again, i am so saddened by your situation.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by Rostou

I should perhaps say more about this:

Today he called me a "piece of work" when I mentioned in a neutral manner that I needed him to contribute to our joint account to keep it in funds for when he is going to be away on a holiday. He went on to rage at me for a bit, angrily berating me.

One thing I am wondering is whether I should say something to name what he did as abusive and to say it isn't acceptable or whether I should just ignore what he said & go and do something else. I know there are various other options. But I am still confused by how to respond to his abuse and I tend to get upset and blank when he does it.

I've been with him for a long time & it never has been good for long. I don't know how I "survived" it this far and I am feeling as if I need to review everything & change what I can as I don't think I can take much more.

Why are you a piece of work for needing provisions while he's away?
I've read the entire thread two or three times. He sounds hopeless. The idea of a cordial, dignified friendship through the golden years, also sounds hopeless. Not sure what advice to give to learning to be resigned to the notion of living like frenemies, so I won't try.