[Ninirisa]

Hello all, I just joined today and I'm hoping someone here can shed light on some possibilities that maybe hadn't occurred to before.

I do not suffer from mental illness, but I strongly suspect my father does... and I know for certain that it has become something detrimental to everyone around him, most particularly my mother.

This is a rather long story, but I'm afraid that it is necessary to go through it, in hopes of understanding the nuances in his mind and his relationships with others. My parents immigrated to the US from China about 22 years ago, and had me shortly after. While it was my father's idea, I think that this has had a lot of negative effects on him that have built up over time. He barely spoke any English, got fired from the job that allowed him and my mother to stay in the US, and they came pretty darn close to having to go back. It was my mother who actually took charge, got into residency at a hospital, and many years later she is now an anesthesiologist. She is also the only one of my parents who has an actual job. My father has had a short stint in the lab as a scientist, and for a brief period of time, was working on passing exams to become a physician as well (they both received Ph.Ds and graduated from medical school in China prior to coming to the US). However, this did not work out - whether it was due to lack effort on his part, or because he simply felt he did not want to do it anymore, I do not know. I merely know that he failed one of the necessary exams and did not try again.

The relationship between my mother and father is strange. For decades now, my mother has felt as though she must control everything, because if she didn't, nothing would get done. On one hand, she sees this as necessary - and, on that note, I agree with her to be honest. My dad has shown many times that he can be lacking in judgement and doesn't always prepare for the worst as he perhaps should. So I don't blame her for feeling as though she had to keep the family running, keep things from falling to pieces. But at the same time, I think this has been hard for my dad. He has no job, hasn't for the past twelve years at least, and while he manages our investment accounts, he spends most of his day in bed or playing with our dog, or doing who knows what on the Internet. While he speaks some English, there's definitely still a language barrier that's hard for him to work around. He often acts as though he doesn't respect my mother (and I word it that way in the hopes that I am wrong and he does respect her, just doesn't know how to show it). Over the past several years, since when I was in high school really (I am now 22 years old), he has been very irritable and even hostile towards her at times, even when not provoked. I know living with her isn't always easy - after all, I did it for almost my entire life. She can be very controlling and particular about how things are done. But that's no excuse to yell at her so much, especially when she is the breadwinner who has financially supported him and our family, and tried so hard to help him overcome whatever it is that's stopping him from finding something of his own to feel accomplished about, such as letting him invest the money she has made.

All in all, I think a lot of his behavior stems from his insecurity of being a stay at home dad, even though he has a MD and Ph.D and is probably smart enough to do a lot more. But over time, habits have developed that make this hard to do. He doesn't plan things out. He's not good at working with others. He gives up very easily, something that is probably easy to do when his wife can financially support him either way, even if it is a blow to his pride. He can go from being completely content and fine to yelling and being enraged in an instant.

I don't know if mental illness is a factor in all this. Truly, I want to see them both happy. My whole family wants to see my dad happier with his life. But we can't convince him to talk to a counselor or get help - every time we try, it only results in a huge argument that ends with him utterly refusing to do so. I can see it taking an increasingly large toll on my mother, who struggles to find ways to cover up for his odd behavior to her friends and tries to work her life plans around him, which isn't always doable. Every time I bring up the idea of talking to someone, she simply tells me he won't do it, and that it's not helpful unless he does, for what good does her talking to someone else about his problems do (not much, I admit). But I wonder if there's anything else that can be done, either by my mother for herself or something to at least help my dad feel better. Has anyone been, or know someone else who has been, in a situation like this before? What did they do?

If you've made it to the bottom of this very long post, thank you so much for taking the time to do so.

I read your whole post. I'm afraid I don't have a lot of advice as in my house I'm the mentally I'll one. Ultimately I feel you can't help anyone who doesn't want to help themselves. You can point out his behavior and encourage him, but you can't make him seek help. I'm sorry I don't have a better answer and I wish you luck.

[eskielover]

Wow, your dad was in the past capable of focusing enoygh to get his MD & PhD in China.

Sadly the bottom line is tjat if he doesnt want help he wouldn't be helped even if he did go to see someone.

Your dad sounds very much like the husband I was married to for 33 years before I got fed up & left 10 years ago....though he always worked he had problems working with people & the messes he made that I constantly had to clean up in our marriage...too many to count. We were both computer engineers.

The only thing from personal experience I can say is that therapy might help your mom learn how to deal with the situation better....it will NOT change yoyr dad. I had bad therapy while married but good therapy wouldnt have help anyway except to have maybe pushed me into leaving sooner.

After being away from the marriage & trying to figure out what had been going on all those years, one T I went to had suggested that it was definitely possible my H had undiagnosed Asperger's. When I finally researched it & read as much as I could find about it, I checked off every one of his behaviors as a match. Did ut make any difference....NO. I sent information to him about it but total denial & refused to get diagnosed. Wondering now if he has some dementia going on too though 66 is yoyng for that normally.

Sometimes just knowing yourself what yoy are dealing with can help even when they refuse help.

Life is complex & dysfunctional people make it even more complex. I wish there was a good answer that would offer you the help you are seeking....there just isnt from my personal experiences. I would just start resesrching possible things even like ASD (aspergers) given his intellugence but lack of ability to work with people. It could be just language barrier & personality issues or it could be more....its wirth researching all possibiluties even if ut doesnt do yoyr dad any good it will help your understanding.

Honestly by the time I left my husband I was angry all the time to the point of actually seeing red every time I had to deal with him & I hated him for what he had done to my life....but now knowing what I know I feel only compassion & a sadness for him but would never go back. I actually hid from my marriage in my career. Your mom may find her career to serve the same purpose....though I know there was never love even at the beginning of our marriage yoyr parents situstion might be very different in that live may have existed. That made it much easier for me to walk away when it became financially possible.

Relationships are so complex & each is different & yiyr parents are the only ones who can resolve their issues or even want to.

[Ninirisa]

Thank you guys for the well wishes... and thanks for sharing your story too. I think a small part of why this is so frustrating for my mother is that she probably feels like she can't talk to anyone about this except for me, since I'm literally witnessing this whenever I am home and I have an understanding of what both my parents are like. It's easy for us to become very self-centered in thinking about all of this because we just don't get the chance or don't give ourselves the chance to really get advice from or hear about others. If nothing else, I thank you for reminding me that complex situations like this might happen to more people than we think.

It is, indeed, hard if not impossible to help those who don't want it. And yet, it is almost harder for us to leave my father to his own devices. We can see whatever funk he's gotten into getting worse, we're not sure what's waiting at the end of all of this, and as much as we want him to be happier for him, I think part of it is we also don't want to feel guilty for not trying, because we do care about him and we don't want him to reach that metaphorical rock bottom. I know my parents had a good relationship at the start, though I don't think that's really the big reason why my mother doesn't want to give up on him. My sister is still a kid and, ultimately, I think my mother thinks that she benefits more from having a father.

The notion of having my mother seek out someone whom she can talk to in hopes of finding better ways to manage these difficulties is definitely one that I have thought of before, though I was always very doubtful of it. For one thing, I think it's hard for her to feel like she needs to get therapy to deal with, of all things, her own family. It's a bit of a blow to her own pride as well... your family isn't supposed to be such a large source of stress in your life, in this way. It's not something you're supposed to be spending money on to feel like you can cope with. At the moment, whenever I happen to be staying at their house for any extended period of time, she comes and talks to me about it... and while what I want more than anything else in those moments is to be there for her, it kind of just results in being her time to vent and we never really come up with solutions to the problems he creates. It makes me feel helpless in a way because, well, I can't solve the problems she talks about either and even though she might not expect me to do more than just listen, I feel like it just results in a lot of worrying on both our parts that we can't really get rid of. And any time I mention that, she takes it very personally and claims that I just don't want to relieve her of some of her burden, but it's really not that simple. I'm not really sure how to give her the push she might need to find better people to talk to about this than her twentysomething daughter who might understand the situation but has no idea how to solve it, especially since she gets offended by it so very easily.

[Rose76]

You're a caring daughter to be so concerned about your parents happiness.

What is it that you think a counselor could do for your father? My own feeling is that you are way over-estimating what counseling can accomplish. Your father is maladjusted. The roots of that are deep. Your parents have worked out an arrangement that they are able to sustain. I totally understand you wishing they were different, but they're not. This is who they are. This is who they will be ten years from now. Your father's a man-child. Your mom doesn't really want a spouse who's an equal partner who'ld wrest some more control from her. I suspect neither of them was forced into this marriage. The best you can do is be pleasant to both and leave them to continue working out their own dynamic. It is not just your father who is impaired. The whole relationship is structured around his dependency and your mother's need to control. There's enough pathology to go around between the both of them. Focus on your life and your future.

Of course your parents are part of your life and will be part of your future. Figure out how to make sure your mom doesn't control you. Work on keeping your relationships with each of them healthy. That's really all you can do. I tried to play marriage counselor to my parents for a while. I was foolish to get drawn into that. It was an utter waste of my energy.

Invite your father to do things with you now and then. Visit a museum or attend a concert. He's intelligent. Something must interest him besides playing with the dog.

Your concern is admirable. But you won't change them. We use the "medical model" in describing human behaviors that seem unfortunate. We conceptualise that maladaptive ways of living constitute "illness." That suggests "treatability." Just as doctors can treat pellagra with niacin, we imagine counselors/psychiatrists can apply some intervention to "treat" problems of how people don't quite live up to their potential. I think we way over-estimate that. People can't be sat down and reasoned into approaching life differently. IMHO.

[Ninirisa]

You’re right, I don’t want to jump to the conclusion that mental illness has a role in this... I think that possibility is one that my mom and I often consider because it makes it easier to be sympathetic to my dad. If he’s mentally ill, then it’s not something that he can help, and might even result in this loop of not feeling up to looking for help and thus never receiving the help he needs.

I don’t think a counselor will necessarily turn him into a kind, respectful being who is content with his station in life and his dependency. But I guess I think it might help him sort out some of his feelings and why he’s been so inactive, despite having accomplished a lot in his education. It doesn’t even have to be a therapist... I think he just needs someone to maybe help him see things a different way, or find something new to be passionate about. If he had something to feel accomplished about, maybe he wouldn’t feel so inferior and feel like he needs to lash out at his high-earning wife, you know? If he had someone to talk with about how the past has led up to where he is today, maybe he’d gain some self-awareness and be able to move on. But of course, he’ll never search out such a person on his own.

[Rose76]

This is very likely not something that he help, no matter what you want to call it. Call it "dependent personality disorder with depressive features," if that makes you feel more charitable toward him. But don't set yourself up as judge of what anyone can, or cannot, help. It would take the omniscient mind of God to discern that. He is seeing things in the way that serves needs he has. Your mom is doing the same thing. Avoid demonizing one and making a hero of the other. Concentrate on the relationship you have with each of them. Don't try and mediate between them. How they treat each other is really their business. How that got to where it is involves things you don't understand.

[Ninirisa]

Well, things have taken an interesting turn... one that, for many years, I thought would never come.

Last night, a somewhat distant family friend of ours visited to discuss a potential job for me, and also my father. He showed interest in this previously, but it requires a lot of interpersonal skills and for the past week, he told us how he was really planning on just taking the test to get the license and forgoing the social events, meetings, and further training offered by the company.

The first hour and a half consisted of us talking about whether it would be a good fit for me, and the family friend answering my questions. After that, I left so they could discuss my father's potential role in it... and somewhere in the discussion, my dad exploded and started yelling about a dozen things that had nothing to do with the matter at hand. Things like how my mother "spends too much," how I used to play video games too much in high school... all this to some guy that he really doesn't know well enough to blurt all this out to in this context, and it ended with him essentially kicking out the friend.

I think this was a big eye-opener for my mother. We had a talk together after that, just her, me, and my 14-year-old sister. And we all agreed that whatever he was dealing with is getting worse, has been really for the past 17 years. Divorce has been a suggestion from both my sister and me for many years now, but I don't think my mom was ready to really consider it until yesterday. In fact, she happened to talk with him just a week ago before I came home saying that he needed to stop treating her with so little respect after he had yelled at her over something trivial again. He agreed... and then went right back to acting as he usually does. This pattern has happened many times before in the past. While it might be something he cannot help, it really isn't something we can continue making excuses for either. He's done a lot worse than just yelling over the years... things that I don't really wish to describe here, and those are even less excusable.

I think she realizes now that she can't help him, not even subtly and indirectly (like by trying to get him to talk to this friend and figure out a potential career); as you all have been telling me, there really is no way to help someone who won't help himself. And she's spent a long time trying to turn him around for fear of letting horrible things happen to him without her actions, but that's just not going to happen and she's trying to accept that she can't be held responsible for that anymore.

So, she has decided to really look into separation and divorce. We (mom, sister and I) all agree that that would probably be best for everyone. A lot of my dad's demons can't be overcome if he stays around her, I think. He holds so much resentment from how inferior she made him feel that, even if she tries to help him, he can't bring himself to subconsciously accept it. And being around him is frustrating and stressful for her, since his current lifestyle goes completely against what she believes to be important and he makes decisions that she later has to try and fix.

I guess the point of this very long post is to bring some closure to the matter that I introduced on these forums. And it's also to thank you all. I knew before that it wasn't possible to help someone who didn't want to reach out and accept it, but you really drove that point home and helped me make that perfectly clear to my mother. Maybe this isn't a perfect solution and it will be a long process that will involve research and sacrifice, but there is no perfect solution and we all think it is worth the cost. I really do think the divorce will be something that gives them both a chance at the lives they want that they just keep denying each other.

[Rose76]

So you, your 14 yr old sister and your mom all, jointly, figured out that she should get a divorce. You are way too up in your mom and dad's business. Stick to managing your own life. Leave mom and dad to figure out their own stuff.

Your mom's a controller, and you're becoming a little chip off the old block - trying to manage what isn't yours to manage. A marriage is between two people, not three or four.

Years ago, my sister called me up saying she wanted a divorce and didn't I think that was a good idea? I told her that I would never, ever criticize her decision, but that only she, and she alone, could decide what was a good idea in regards to her marriage. That is my deeply held belief.

[eskielover]

Leaving my H after being married 33 years was the only way I regained my sanity. He actually has gotten worse after I left him. Within the 10 years he has let the house go into foreclosure twice after not paying house payments for a year each time & saying he doesnt know how he didnt pay for a year. But it wasn't just forgotten because the miney wasnt there to pay it. Some people have a serious problem that will never change even when forced to deal with divorce or ling term separation. I thought my H would change when he realized I was leaving him. Instead he got worse & all I could think & can think is that it was such a good thing that I finally did leave. It was after I left & I got better from the depression I had suffered the last 13 years I lived with him, I realuzed thst the situation of living with him was the REAL cause of my depression.

I love life & even though alone & really NOT interested in ever finding a marriage relationship ever again I have never been more involved in so many wonferful activities & have friends for the first time in my life. I can truly say leaving was the best thing I ever did & wished I had left long before I did.

My H (soon to be ex) may end up homeless because of whatever is causing his problems but in all reality....it is his problem.

Your mother needs to talk with a good divorce lawyer because since she has the income, & roles are reversed, dividing assets will be very important to her in the process because he is like a stay at home househusband & compensation may be forced even if it is his own choice not to work. She needs a good lawyed who will make sure that her best interest is taken into consideration or she could end up losing alot financially.

[seesaw]

I do not know if your father suffers from any mental illness but there is clearly a level of dysfunction and lack of communication in your family.

Just from what you described, it does sound like there is something going on with your dad, whether it's depression or anxiety, or whatever, I'm not sure.

I know your mom doesn't seem to think it will benefit her to go to therapy if he won't, but it will help her. She will learn how to set boundaries and limits, and it will help her learn to deal with her own emotions about it. Plus, it could just plain give her someone appropriate to vent to...because she really shouldn't be venting to you.

Seesaw

[Rose76]

I think your mom may be playing you. My guess is that she has no intention of getting a divorce.

Years ago my mother tried to get me to agree that she was doing my father a favor by staying married to him. She claimed she wanted to divorce him, but couldn't afford to because she couldn't pay the mortgage on the house by herself. I would not say what she wanted me to say. When one parent tries to get you to talk negatively about the other parent, you are being played. That's what I believe.

Your father got all upset because he felt pressured into considering a job opportunity. This disturbed him because he doesn't want to get a job. That's the way he's been living and he doesn't want to change.

I predict your parents will still be married 5 years from now.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by Rose76

So you, your 14 yr old sister and your mom all, jointly, figured out that she should get a divorce. You are way too up in your mom and dad's business. Stick to managing your own life. Leave mom and dad to figure out their own stuff.

Your mom's a controller, and you're becoming a little chip off the old block - trying to manage what isn't yours to manage. A marriage is between two people, not three or four.

Years ago, my sister called me up saying she wanted a divorce and didn't I think that was a good idea? I told her that I would never, ever criticize her decision, but that only she, and she alone, could decide what was a good idea in regards to her marriage. That is my deeply held belief.

After having read your follow-up comments, I must say I agree with Rose. Your mother should NOT be discussing her marriage with you. My mother did that and it royally screwed me up. I know way too much about their marriage, their sex life, everything. And what's worse, is years later, my dad told me his side, and for a while I believed that...but now I see that they are both totally messed up and the only perspective that I can trust, and that matters, is what I experienced growing up in that house with the two of them. I don't care who was "right" or "wrong" and who did what to whom. In the end, all I care about is that they created a violent household TOGETHER that made it an abusive and neglectful home for me and my brothers and resulted in my complex PTSD and the issues I have today.

Now, granted, even though I just ranted about it, I am an adult, I take responsibility for my own life and who I am today and I control my own destiny, not the abuse they inflicted on me.

As Rose said, you (and your 14 year old sister, that is so NOT appropriate) need to get your noses up outta their business. You are not old enough or the party responsible to be making decisions for your father's life.

I'm not saying anything that your father did or has done is right, and same with your mother. But children should not be involved in the marital decisions of their parents. There is so much more between them than what you think you know.

My advice is to get yourself a therapist and work through your control issues and independence.

Sorry if this seems stern, I just see a lot of what happened to me happening to you, and god, I wish someone had hurt my feelings a little bit to tell me to get my nose outta my parents' business. It would have saved me so much heartache and confusion and my own mistakes.

Seesaw

[Rose76]

Wow, I didn't think anyone would agree with me.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by Rose76

I think your mom may be playing you. My guess is that she has no intention of getting a divorce.

Years ago my mother tried to get me to agree that she was doing my father a favor by staying married to him. She claimed she wanted to divorce him, but couldn't afford to because she couldn't pay the mortgage on the house by herself. I would not say what she wanted me to say. When one parent tries to get you to talk negatively about the other parent, you are being played. That's what I believe.

Your father got all upset because he felt pressured into considering a job opportunity. This disturbed him because he doesn't want to get a job. That's the way he's been living and he doesn't want to change.

I predict your parents will still be married 5 years from now.

This ^!!! so much this ^!!!

Both of my parents tried to talk **** about each other to me to get me to side with them and cause the other pain...this was YEARS before they finally got a divorce. Then years later, my dad tried to tell me that he never wanted a divorce, that he had loved my mother very dearly. All I could think was ********. You didn't want a divorce because it meant you lost control, not because you loved her or us. If the marriage he modeled is what love is, then I hope I never fall in love.

But, the fact of the matter is, that that's is not what love it. Love is being heard and understood. Love is trust. Love is feeling safe. Love is feeling warm and light. (This is actually a definition from a 12 step group I go to, and I find it to be a very good definition.)

I also doubt your parents will get a divorce. I also feel sorry for your dad, because it appears that your mom has alienated you from him. Think about it...how old were you the first time she confided in you about it? Or had a discussion with you about your father outside of his presence? I'm guessing it didn't just start yesterday. Especially since your 14 year old sister is also part of these conversations. (I really don't know what experience and life perspective your 14 year old sister is giving to your mom making this important decision.)

Here is the deal, if your father is being violent, call the cops. If he is behaving in a way that is violent and scary, call 911 and get a psych eval.

I'm sorry this is happening in your family. It is really scary to deal with parents who behave this way. But you need to get your head out of it and get help for yourself so you can have healthy relationships and a healthy family someday. Otherwise you will model this same behavior to your kids.

Seesaw

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by Rose76

Wow, I didn't think anyone would agree with me.

Surprising sometimes, right?

[Rose76]

My father had mixed feelings about my mother working. He missed her being home all the time, but he wanted the income she earned so they could stop renting and buy a home of their own. One night when he came home drunk he gave her a hard time. When I got up the next morning, there was sugar spilt all over the kitchen floor. My mom said my dad spilled it because he was drunk and she wasn't cleaning it because she wanted us kids to see the mess he made. Then she handed me a brown paper bag. Inside was one of her uniforms th she had ironed for work that he had ripped into pieces. She told she picked up the pieces because she didn't want the younger kids to see what he had done, but she saved them to show me because she wanted me to see. I couldn't have been more than 13 and probably was younger. At the time I felt special that she was making me aware of everything. Years later, I look back and don't think she was doing me any favor.

When I was grown up, my mom was still singing the blues about how difficult life was with my father. Oddly enough, she never wanted to listen to any criticism I had about my father, but would defend him to the hilt. Finally I said to her, "I didn't get to choose who I would have for a father, but you did get to choose who you'ld marry . . . and you had two other proposals before meeting him. So I'm not going to hold a pity party for you." After that my mother was kind of distant toward me for the rest of my life.

As a child, it seemed that one of my roles in life was to act as confidant to each of my parents. I now believe this cut into the time and energy I should have spent relating to others my own age. I thought all families were like mine. I still wonder what is normal?

It was easy to write my father off as the nutty one. But I did see that relationships are complicated. My mother was a little too fond of polishing up "the martyr's crown." She never did leave my father. He was a good provider and they ended up quite financially secure. They were quite companionable as they got older. I'm glad I withheld judging who was right and who was wrong.

[Ninirisa]

Oh, wow, a lot of things. Okay. I’m not going to try to address all of them, but I will say this: I’m not at their home that often, so I do not really know what extent my sister is involved in all of this, but nevertheless, our gut feeling is that the two really are unhappy with each other and hindering each other from living fulfilling lives. I don’t think my mother wants her involved at all, nor do I think she wanted me aware of it as early as I was... but you can’t exactly cover up that kind of vicious shouting and aggressive displays with, “Ohh, he’s just having a bad day.” As a child, my sister definitely lacks sight of some of what’s there, but I do think children are often smarter than we give them credit for and it doesn’t take a wholy developed person to realize something is very wrong here. There definitely is a lack of communication where my dad is involved... namely, because he is either unwilling to communicate or unable to, or both. And while it does make me feel sorry for him, it does not change everything else. I do care deeply about him and I can tell he is unhappy. His periods of rage have grown more frequent over the past few years and he’s grown more apathetic, which should seem conflicting yet are both happening.

As it turns out, while it probably would benefit my mother to see a therapist, it seems that is also not so simple. While those in charge at the hospitals she works at cannot discriminate too obviously against those who show signs of needing mental support, they can do it subtly. Mental illness and decreasing mental health carries a stigma with it, and that is especially prevalent in the medical field because it is such a high-stress environment. They might not outright let you go for it, but when it comes time to make decisions if someone needs to be cut loose, they will look at such persons less favorably. And my mother does not want to find herself in that situation.

She does plan to meet with a family lawyer and get a better picture of the situation. Idk if siding is the right word to use when it comes to talks with her... to be honest, my father does a pretty good job of turning people away himself. It doesn’t mean we see him as a horrible person - in fact, he’s redeemable in some ways, which is probably why it’s been so hard to give him up. On the contrary, I don’t think he’s a bad person, but being around the person who was a source of a lot of negative feelings for him and prevented him, for whatever reason, from having a lot of control has not been good for him. I see a divorce as an opportunity for them both.

Maybe you are right and a divorce truly won’t come of it, though I hope it won’t sound too horrible if I say I hope that it does. I will say that we have had discussions like this before, and it does feel different this time around. Perhaps my sister and I’s involvement is not ideal, but in the end we cannot “control” or force my mom into anything. And while a marriage is two people, a family is considerably more in this case, and like it or not a divorce affects everyone. I understand where that concern is coming from, and I don’t thank my mother for venting to me, but that doesn’t mean I won’t be glad if it motivates her into doing what she feels has to be done.

I understand your stories, and I feel for you... but upon reading them, my immediate instinct told me that this is not the case here. And upon thinking further, I find I agree with it. And while I appreciate the concern, I think it is somewhat rude to assume that I will turn out like this too. I understand that it comes out of concern, but you really don’t know me well enough to say something like that.

Completely relatable. My father is exactly like this.
A part of him sees futility in partaking in any activity since your mother has become the breadwinner. But another part of him is in long despair because he is not productive, and trying to cope by partaking in casual activities at home.

What will attract him to be better is to first for him to feel better about himself, and within himself.

I can also recommend the “Men Are From Mars. Women Are From Venus”, which discusses ideas for better communications between couples, along the earlier chapters.

[seesaw]

I think you've completely missed the point that you should not be having these conversations with your mother about her divorce. They're called boundaries. When she starts to bring up her marriage, it would be best and healthiest for you to ask her to not discuss it with you. And yes, while children can be very insightful, it's still horribly abusive to ask a child of 14 to engage in a conversation about her parents' marriage. It affects their emotional development and asks them to conspire against one parent, which is what your mother is doing by having conversations with you and your sister about whether or not she should get a divorce. You don't even see how your mother has alienated you from your father by engaging you in these discussions. You are blind to it. I suspect you like it because it makes you feel in control and powerful over your father, so you refuse to see that it's inappropriate for you to engage in those discussions. And let's be clear, you aren't having a family meeting to discuss your father's health and his need to be hospitalized or how you are going to get him treatment or an intervention or anything. You have met up to talk about whether or not your mother should get a divorce. Their marriage is none of your business.

As for the medical field, your mother should know as well as any of us that the stigma of mental illness is just that: a stigma. But just seeking therapy for a situation is not having a mental illness, and to suggest that doctors and nurses don't go to therapy either for actual mental health disorders or just for relationship issues is ludicrous. And to suggest that they would lose their job for seeing a therapist a few times to deal with relationship issues? Seriously? Your mother is feeding you a line there. Explain to me how her employer would even know? HIPPA laws prevent them from knowing. She's feeding you a line to keep her from having to deal with it and further get your on her side. There are SO many reasons a person might see a therapist other than themselves actually having a diagnosed mental health disorder. They could have a child with a disorder or syndrome that they need help managing, or another family member, they could be doing marriage counseling to improve communication skills, they could have performance anxiety, which can happen to anyone in any field, they could just need someone to talk to...seeing a therapist doesn't automatically mean there is something wrong with you, and most medical professionals know that. I'm surprised your mother would suggest otherwise, unless she's trying to manipulate you, which I suspect she is.

I mean, have you ever been in a workplace? It's illegal to ask questions about health to an employee. Plus, I go to therapy once every week or every other week, and I never had to disclose what my medical appointments were to my employer. I scheduled them on lunch breaks or after work, and it was no one's business but my own. And it's not like she would have to see a therapist who works at the same facility that she works. What she is telling you is just not true. Do you know how many doctors, nurses, and caregivers have actual mental health disorders, not just see a therapist to deal with communication issues, but full blown disorders? There are tons of members on this site alone who work in the medical field.

I think your mother is doing what she feels she needs to do to protect herself. She may not even realize she's doing it. It worries me that you don't think discussing her marriage with you is a problem. It sort of suggests how long this type of alienating behavior has been going on.

Yes, it's clear your father needs help. And if that's the discussion you need to have as a family, then have that discussion. But stay out of your mother's marriage problems. And try and keep your sister out of them too.

Good luck,
Seesaw

[Ninirisa]

I think you missed me saying that the situation is not ideal. Yes, a boundary has been crossed. But just like my mother cannot look back and try to picture what might’ve happened if they had stayed in China 24 years ago, I cannot make a difference about what has already happened in that regard. What I can (and probably should) do is encourage my mom to keep my sister out of it, as any discussion from this point on is likely to be about her plans and how they will shape up.

Believe me, I can’t count how many times I wished for a dad who was capable of listening to my problems and empathizing and offering advice based on his experience... but again, that’s not something I can change. To imply that I get a high of sorts from “power” over him is greatly inaccurate and, while I can see how you might have reached that conclusion from reading this and from your past experiences, it really shows how different things can look when viewed from other people who haven’t been there for the full journey.

I think you are also overestimating my mother’s capability of keeping something like this under wraps, which is why you might judge her too harshly. You also don’t really understand our relationship, and how we value family. For me to essentially tell her that I don’t want to hear about her struggles anymore, go find somebody else would be highly rude and damaging to her. It already has been. Heck, I’ve felt bad enough from the times I’ve told her subtly that I am really not the best person to talk to about these things, and all it ever results in is my mother feeling more isolated. And cutting myself off from my family is not an option. If she doesn’t want to find a therapist, then I can’t force or “control” her into doing so. She is not the type to mislead me like how you’re suggesting... though she may genuinely be mistaken. But I don’t know how the culture surrounding mental health in the medical field is here and, you probably don’t either. I do think that it’s possible for employers to get around laws through subtlety, so it’s not something I can write off as a possibility. The way she talks implies that this has happened before.

We’ve had discussions about getting my father help, but alas, they have clearly never come to fruition. I think perhaps because you’ve had experiences with your mother being deceitful, you keep trying to suggest that mine is doing the same. But that’s really not how our relationship works, and she has my trust for a reason. Still, I’m glad and grateful to you for bringing it up, because I needed to compare it to what I know and think to myself that this is different. Please don’t worry because you think I’m taking this too lightly or making too little of it - yes, children can exhibit similar behaviors that they saw from their parents, but they can also learn from their parents’ mistakes. I can’t change the fact that I am in this, but I don’t have to carry it with me to the future and my own kids.

[seesaw]

Feeling like you can't ask your mother to not discuss inappropriate topics, like her marriage, with you because it will hurt her feelings is a sign of codependency.

Please don't assume that people, or myself, on here don't know how things work with employment law in the US. I am very well versed on employment law in the United States, and that's why I questioned your mother's claims about her employer finding out that she was seeing a therapist.

The suggestions here are for you to take or leave as you see fit.

I hope that things work out for you.

Seesaw

I'm sorry things are difficult right now and people are having trouble understanding. I think you are brave to be open here about your parents coming from another country. Mine do too, and I gave up trying to make people understand the double cultural expectations/dynamics a long time ago. You seem like you have a clear understanding of things though. I'm sorry I don't have much advice, I am not too good at relationships. I hope things get better soon. I'm sure it will be okay, whether or not the divorce happens.

[Rose76]

You are making an error in logic when you start a statement with "She feels . . . " You cannot directly know how another human "feels." You can hear what others say and observe their demeanor and their way of interacting. What you are able to take in are another person's statements, and you can observe another person's "affect." Affect is what one person can directly observe in another person's demeanor. Affect can be described as angry, enthusiastic, sad, confused, etc. All these adjectives describe a person's inner state of mind, which is never directly observable. Humans are constantly forming "theories" about what other humans are thinking. It is necessary and important that we do that. But it is very important that we distinguish between what we know firsthand and what we believe based on "theory." You're a bright person and you can easily understand that. However you are still young and very much under parental influence. When you start off a statement about your mother by saying "She feels . . . ," you are stating as fact something that is really just your theory. You may be right, or you may be wrong. You can't know what anyone else "feels," even your mother. Even if your theory is based on your mom saying, "I feel this or that way." Humans are notorious for misreporting how they "feel," even to themselves. This is naive of you.

The longer I've lived, the more I've learned that I can misread the feelings of people, even of close family members. People censor their expression of feeling to express only feelings that they trust will be acceptable to others. Your mother has mixed feelings about your father. Years of marriage lead to complicated layers of feeling. You are deluded, if you think you can know what your mother holds in her mind and heart. It is more complicated than you have any idea of. Of course, you have to formulate theories. That is necessary to interaction. Just don't overly rely on them. Also, be aware that humans try very hard to control the theory that another human has of the first human's thought processes. This is part of how humans manipulate each other, and we all do it. To some extent, it's even constructive. It helps preserve the peace. In curtailing the behavior of a toddler, a parent will sometimes pretend to feel more anger than is actually the case. This is to have an intended impact. You seem to not be fully aware of how much guessing you are doing.

Another telltale sign of someone being at least a little confused is to start off a statement with "We feel . . . " You sound like your mother and you share a joint-mind. And 14 year old sister is also supposed to participate in this "group think." Humans can't engage in "collective" thinking. Each individual does it individually. There may be impressions held in common. But I promise you that your mom has at least a few thoughts about your father that would surprise you.

Parents are naturally sensitive to how they are viewed by their children. When there is conflict between two parents, it is natural for each parent to want to be seen as "the good one." Parents can be quite strategic about what they share with their kids. You describe your mom as "controlling." Don't think she is not wanting to control the "theory" you have about her marriage.

I'm not seriously recommending that you refuse to listen to your mother venting. But concentrate on "listening." Be less eager to endorse your mother's take on things. Be less eager to co-plan your mom's future with her. If your dad was hollering loudly at your mom, you can honestly affirm that "Dad sure got loud yesterday." But what your mom should do about it is really on her. You can advise her that she needs to do "what she thinks best." But this is not something for you, sis and mom to have a vote on. If your mom needs to be listened to, it's okay for you to say 'I hear what you're saying, Mom." That's a far cry from you saying, "I think Dad and you will both be better off, if you separate." That you do not know.

It may be appropriate for your mom to get out of this marriage. She might have a better life, apart from this man. That's for her to decide. There are risks to that, especially in the way divorce would affect your dad. It is very likely that losing his marriage will not spur him on to a higher level of independent functioning. More likely, IMHO, he will further decompensate and get himself into a downward spiraling mess. That doesn't mean your mom is obligated to sacrifice her future on the altar of saving Dad from himself. But let go of wanting to put this happy, hopeful face on things whereby divorce will be a win-win for all concerned. The outcome for your father may be sad, and no small burden on you and sis down the line. Mom foresees more of what can go wrong than you do.

I'm not big on recommending therapy to any of you. I don't think it would change much. Mainly I recommend that you patiently leave your parents to work out for themselves where they each go from here. Don't get caught up in "group-think." You are daughter to each if these individuals. Concentrate on managing those two relationships, which are yours to manage. Don't get set up to bear the burden of consequences that your parents will face for not having built a healthy marriage. If Mom separates from Dad, that will be all the more that she will invest in controlling you. You already show striking signs of not knowing where she ends and you begin. This has tremendous potential for undermining your future relationship with a significant other. Then you'll be posting to a thread that starts off, "I'm having some issues with my boyfriend, and my mom and I think/feel that . . . " Not the direction you want to go in.

[lizardlady]

I'm going to come at this from a completely different POV. Am wondering if your father's discontent is more cultural than mental health. Both of you parents were professionals in China. Your mother managed to be successful in that field in the US. Your father, not so. He comes from a culture where the male is supposed to be the primary breadwinner. He came from a male dominated society. Everything got turned on its head when your parents came here. It's conceivable that your father felt dis-empowered and emasculated after they emigrated. Not understanding the language or being able to keep a job would add to those feelings. Much of what you described about your parents' early years in the US sounds pretty common for first generation immigrants.

Please, no one get me wrong. I'm not saying the behavior of the OP's father is acceptable. I'm pointing out that there might be different root cause.

To answer the question in the OP's title - we can't help anyone who does not want help. Going to use an analogy I like. I lay a pen on the table in front of a person and point out that a pen is a very useful tool, but you have to pick it up and use it for it to be useful. It has little use laying on the table. Same thing with you mother of father going into therapy. If they don't pick up the tools and use them, nothing's going to happen. If the OP's father does not believe he has a problem trying to force him into therapy is going to be like trying to make a pig sing. (doesn't work and angers the pig)

I've seen lots of discussion of boundaries in this thread. As with the origin of the father's discontent, I wonder if we are looking at a cultural difference more than co-dependence. What is inappropriate is one culture can be the norm in another. That said, from my Western perspective involving children in the decision for the parents to divorce puts a huge responsibility on the kids.