[DechanDawa]

So, back in April I wrote about the end of a very long friendship with someone I had known since we were both six years old. So a friendship spanning over 5 decades!

This person verbally attacked me (by text) and said things so horrible and cruel I was forced to end the friendship. It also finally seemed clear she has narcissistic qualities.

There was one more communication where she acted like nothing was wrong and that "our" tempers had flared a bit because of Covid. This was a total untruth. It was ALL her. She just "went off" on me. I was shocked to suddenly realize that 1) she never apologizes, 2) she always blames something outside herself, and 3) she expects I will just "suck up" her cruelty and continue being her friend. I told her I felt traumatized, did not consider we had a friendship anymore, and wanted to be left alone. I went no contact. NO CONTACT.

Since then I have been haunted a lot by the things she said. I feel obsessed with confronting her about her lies and gaslighting. This is always the worst thing about narcissists. They simply act superior, like they are always right, etc. etc. She started many sentences to me with "You are...." blah, blah, blah. This is the opposite one should do in a discussion about conflict. One should say, "I think..." or "I feel..." and not judge the other. She went crazy saying all these terrible lies about me. It was a text. I tried calling her and she would not answer her phone.

She's one of those narcissists who controls by their generosity...giving expensive and unique gifts. It took me weeks but I got rid of 98 per cent of everything she gave me, all letters, and all cards. She always sent very expensive, one-of-a-kind cards, often by artists and illustrators. She also gave me jewelry by talented craftsmen. All this stuff really felt like it was chocking me to death. She is a hoarder. Not a hoarder of crap but a hoarder of seasonal decorations, art, and antiques.

Lately I have been fantasizing sending her a letter to get "closure" even though that is absurd. I also feel like I want to get "revenge." I have feelings of hate. Underneath this I am just really hurt. She was a very weird, clingy child...she over-whelmed me. I can remember how she would always separate me from all the other kids and games and make me play with just her in the corner of the playground. She was an emotional vampire even as a child.

That late in life when I was down and out she would devalue and discard me...makes me so angry.

She did this a few other times in my life. Always when I was going through something hard...like my mother's death...or my divorce...she would vanish and show up a year or two later.

I am also soooooooooooooooooo angry with myself for all the times I let her back into my life. I think all along she displayed narcissism. She probably "made the rounds" of one friend or another...would cause a rupture...then move on to the next "source of narcissistic supply." I know she cuts people out of her life when they are no longer of value. She did this with a sister, and some in-laws.

I am also angry with myself for letting her bully me and devalue me. Frankly I felt she had a petty side I chose to ignore. This is kind of what I have done with toxic people...just ignore their dark sides. Now I am actively cutting them out of my life...and it feels like one bloody surgery after another. Narcissists and toxic people can get soooooooooooooo nasty.

Of course I could say very mean and very hurtful things to her. But it is not my style. I would rather walk away. She was such a weird child I could be very hurtful about what she was like back then. She was very high maintenance and had very few playmates. But it just isn't my style to be purposefully hurtful.

I hate to say I am a "nice" person because that sounds so stupid. I suppose everyone thinks they are a nice person. But I generally don't like to create waves, and would rather walk away than fight. I hate conflict.

But in this particular situation I just feel like she thinks she has "won" and is "superior" and "right" and knows everything about me - who I am, what I am etc etc...when none of these things are true.

I am moving so packing and going through things. I found pictures of a "pajama party" we had when we were tiny kids. We were in my childhood bedroom, tucked in bed, giggling, and hugging one another. I saved the picture because we were just kids and back then everything was so bright and beautiful. I had a sort of magical childhood and she loved coming over to my house. But I must not forget that even as a child she was difficult and high maintenance.

I find that these days a lot of people are very manipulative. If I met a woman who was natural and did not engage in this horrible habit...maybe I would make a new gal friend. Also, someone who did not brag or gossip...which seems to be very prevalent among adults of a certain age. This doesn't seem like too much to ask but maybe it is.

I have written this ex-friend letters and ripped them up. I am tired of that. I really want her to get out of my head.


I read a quote by Gandhi which said, "Don't walk through my clean mind with your dirty feet," and that's kind of how I feel about her.

[DechanDawa]

correction...first line should read 5 decades, not 50 decades!

[Open Eyes]

There are times where a person lashes out because they are so unhappy themselves. It can be at someone who doesn't deserve it too. I think this bad conversation took place at a time when you needed a friend and she was in such a bad place that she could not provide that to you.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

There are times where a person lashes out because they are so unhappy themselves. It can be at someone who doesn't deserve it too. I think this bad conversation took place at a time when you needed a friend and she was in such a bad place that she could not provide that to you.

I think the spark that ignited the fire is because I said I didn't want to be "in the middle" between her and her husband...who she constantly complains about...and I mean constantly. I knew him even before she met him...so I felt uncomfortable...finally...with decades of hearing her complain about him but never considering divorce.

Okay, I did set a boundary.


It is a new thing for me to set boundaries. I guess I have learned that narcissists just don't accept that.


My marriage didn't work out...and divorce ended it. Period. I would rather be divorced than be unhappily married. She already knew this about me...that this was my stand. To continue to complain to me...well...maybe she struck the match that lit the fire.

Just saying...it takes a long long time to get over the havoc of putting up with a narcissist...then rocking the boat.

All the gifts and cards and sweet messages finally felt false.


I don't know. I feel sad is all. Sad about this whole thing and wish there was closure...but I guess there won't be closure.

PS She is not in a "bad place" except what she creates for herself. She has a lovely home, money, family including grand kids all around her. Her husband is faithful, and a good provider. She doesn't have to work and can just indulge in her hobbies...which mostly includes spoiling her dog, and shopping endlessly. It is difficult to feel sorry for someone who creates a "bad day" for herself because the weather isn't to her liking. Like I said, high maintenance.

[Open Eyes]

You had a right to state that you did not care to listen to her marital problems. If I recall her husband had a drinking problem. In all fairness that can be hard to live with. Yet she should go to alanon meetings and see a therapist.

She should not have blown up at you because she is unhappy and has not had anyone to vent to about it.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

You had a right to state that you did not care to listen to her marital problems. If I recall her husband had a drinking problem. In all fairness that can be hard to live with. Yet she should go to alanon meetings and see a therapist.

She should not have blown up at you because she is unhappy and has not had anyone to vent to about it.

I am really not concerned about her life anymore. This thread wasn't really about that. Anyway...I only "know" her husband has a drinking problem because she says so. How do I know she is even telling the truth?

I have known this guy forever...and have never seen him drunk. I have been out with them and he drank socially and did not over-drink. She seemed to be the one who over-drank.


Okay...maybe I have answered my own questions here.

Whatever is going on...they are locked in a toxic marriage. I didn't want to be in the middle anymore.

She needs therapy. She doesn't want to go to a therapist because she wants everyone to agree with her.


Okay, she probably feels I betrayed HER.

Maybe I did.

It is good for me to stay out of denial. I rocked the boat, yes.


But her rage went way beyond whatever she perceived was her situation.

I am tired of this. I am tired of thinking about this and talking about this. I have already talked to a counselor about this...as well as some people from my church. I am under too much stress presently to be forgiving and understanding at this time. I have to focus on how not to become homeless.

I will try not to think about her. I should have ended the so-called friendship once-and-for-all years ago. She creates sorrow and discord. I tried to be a friend and could not. End of story.

[Open Eyes]

I’m sorry this challenge still bothers you like this. That you still feel a need to speak your piece to feel some kind of closure for yourself.

I have experienced this challenge myself being treated horribly when I did not deserve it. Especially when the individual invaded my boundaries and continued to do so. Even smearing me by lying. No letter can change a person like this either. All any letter can do is clarify and confirm to yourself that you are making the right choice by completely distancing from the person.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

I’m sorry this challenge still bothers you like this. That you still feel a need to speak your piece to feel some kind of closure for yourself.

I have experienced this challenge myself being treated horribly when I did not deserve it. Especially when the individual invaded my boundaries and continued to do so. Even smearing me by lying. No letter can change a person like this either. All any letter can do is clarify and confirm to yourself that you are making the right choice by completely distancing from the person.

You are right. I should take responsibility for the fact I let this unhealthy so-called friendship go on and on. But this has been my experience with narcissists. They vanish...then all of a sudden they pop up...and act like nothing is wrong...like they don't have memories of their abusive ways.

I simply can't wrap my head around how toxic these people are.


But I really need to take more responsibility. If I am being "haunted" by thoughts of her then I am allowing it to happen...instead of keeping busy and improving my life.

Writing letters to her I will never send is a waste of my time.


It's uncomfortable to change. That's my problem. I am stressed out and wish I had a few good friends instead of all these toxic people I have to keep away from.


Toxic people are the worse.


Thanks for listening and responding, OE.


I need to battle against thinking about her.

[Open Eyes]

Dechan, I think that part of the challenge you are having is that you do have fond memories of this friend where she stayed at your house and you giggled etc together. There was a closeness you experienced with her. That doesn’t fit in with how she treated you that deeply hurt and disturbed you. So when this happens the brain or our mind has conflicting feelings and unresolve. This is called cognitive dissonance. I have that challenge with certain individuals myself. It tends to keep a person stuck and at times feeling discomfort that actually produces anxiety. I have certain individuals that I have this problem with myself IRL.

It’s probably resurfacing again due to not having where you are going to live resolved yet right now.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

Dechan, I think that part of the challenge you are having is that you do have fond memories of this friend where she stayed at your house and you giggled etc together. There was a closeness you experienced with her. That doesn’t fit in with how she treated you that deeply hurt and disturbed you. So when this happens the brain or our mind has conflicting feelings and unresolve. This is called cognitive dissonance. I have that challenge with certain individuals myself. It tends to keep a person stuck and at times feeling discomfort that actually produces anxiety. I have certain individuals that I have this problem with myself IRL.

It’s probably resurfacing again due to not having where you are going to live resolved yet right now.

Yes, you are right. This person said that I "deserved" to be where I am...without really going into the reasons...that I "deserved" to be alone...and a lot of other stuff. This is very disturbing. She has a large, supportive family...and has never lived alone...so how could she judge my experience? She has never moved out-of-state while I have lived in many places. She has never been responsible for anything...has never done her taxes, or purchased a house or car...her husband does everything. He manages their bills, mortgage, vehicle maintenance, health insurance, social security...bank accounts...everything.


I have sort of been "at risk" regarding my mental state for the last few years...and my financial situation changed drastically during the last 18 months. But that she used this to "judge" me is what has been haunting me. I am already very low on self-confidence, and with pretty serious housing problems. I also went through a period of feeling suicidal. She knew all that.

Her recent behavior was along the lines of "kicking someone when they are down," which is so low. I guess that is why I am angry. It is the lowest of the low moves to do this. That's why I am so, so, so angry. I want to confront her and just scream at her. This isn't how she was raised. Her parents were good people. I swear if I was near her I would just slap her up the side of her head!


It's not like I was abusing drugs or alcohol, or in an bad relationship...or engaging in criminal activity. I have just been trying to survive and stay sane. She said a lot of other stuff worse than this. I think it is what they call narcissistic rage.


I have gone through bad times and come out the other side. This is a very difficult time for me...basically the last four years. But it could get better for me. When it does she won't be there.

To think that in the past when she was having troubles with finances...my then husband and I paid for her to fly across country and visit us and to have a holiday provided by us - as a bit of relief from her problems. We wined and dined her and showed her all the sights in our part of the country (it awed her as she had never been out west) and for two weeks catered to her every desire. She always talked about the vacation we gave her when she was "down and out." So what does she give me when I am down and out? A swift verbal kick. then another, then another.


She is an idiot. I feel better just staying angry. I have always been a loyal friend and she trashed that. Her loss. Moving on.

What a freaking idiot...AND...a total witch she has become. If her husband dies before her she will truly be alone...because she has become mean and nasty and is probably alienating more people than just me. Then she will really experience loneliness and isolation for the first time. Her road won't be easy.

It's true I have cognitive dissonance. I DO wish I could confront her and ask her WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY?...but I guess I will never know. And I have to live with that.

I am so stressed and it seems to be causing a lot of negative thinking. I need to work hard to change my attitude.

[Open Eyes]

It’s very hard when you have been nice and caring with someone and the individual behaves so badly and gets mean like that. It’s understandable you feel betrayed and angry.

I don’t think you would get a true why. As a matter of fact if you did express your anger it would only be used against you. After all a nice person would have never behaved that way to begin with.

[DechanDawa]

Hmmm. I got so angry and hot-and-bothered writing this thread that tonight I went out and bought some ice cream to cool down!

[TishaBuv]

A lifelong friendship is complex. For her to say ‘you deserved it’ shows she had a lot of pent up anger, jealousy, resentment toward you. I’m sure you both had every single emotion for each other. Over all that time, everything is bound to happen. It’s more of a family relationship than a friendship. I’m not saying you earned all those bad feelings but obviously she had them because that comment is not anything one would say to a friend.

I occasionally think about my ex lifelong friend. It’s been two years since that final fallout. She got me good with a vicious comment, too. It’s only someone close to you, whom you’ve confided in, who can turn it around on you to hit you with it right between the eyes! It hurts because it makes us think that deep down, it’s true. It takes a stab at our innermost fears and they know it. That’s why they do it. How low can they go to emotionally murder you? Yes, that’s narcissistic.

I’m glad to be rid of my ‘friend’. I miss the good times we had and her sense of humor, when it wasn’t meanly directed at me. I don’t miss her using me and being a pain in the azz. I’m not angry at her for how she lashed out at me. That’s who she is; like when a wild animal is cornered, it will attack and bite. That’s what happened when you had a confrontation with your ex friend. People can turn on a dime.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

It’s very hard when you have been nice and caring with someone and the individual behaves so badly and gets mean like that. It’s understandable you feel betrayed and angry.

I don’t think you would get a true why. As a matter of fact if you did express your anger it would only be used against you. After all a nice person would have never behaved that way to begin with.

In some ways I think it is better to have one last big fight and get it out in the open. I prefer that. Then you know what the other person is thinking.


I had a friend once who make me follow her out to the woods in the back of her house then she started to scream at me. At the time I really almost started laughing. She was saying insane stuff. It didn't bother me she was screaming. It seemed idiotic. I am not really a screamer.

I just listened...went back to the house...informed my then husband we were leaving...and that was that.


Personally I prefer that over this sneaky, stealthy, secretive stuff. It's cowardly. I kept calling her on her phone and she wouldn't answer...and I thought that was...just cowardly and wimpy.

The person who screamed at me in the woods. It was strange...but she dated my brother and he treated her very poorly. He left his hat and some other stuff and she created a big bonfire and burned all his stuff. So I think she was taking it out on me and this particular brother of mine does really treat women poorly...so it was kind of understandable.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

A lifelong friendship is complex. For her to say ‘you deserved it’ shows she had a lot of pent up anger, jealousy, resentment toward you. I’m sure you both had every single emotion for each other. Over all that time, everything is bound to happen. It’s more of a family relationship than a friendship. I’m not saying you earned all those bad feelings but obviously she had them because that comment is not anything one would say to a friend.

I occasionally think about my ex lifelong friend. It’s been two years since that final fallout. She got me good with a vicious comment, too. It’s only someone close to you, whom you’ve confided in, who can turn it around on you to hit you with it right between the eyes! It hurts because it makes us think that deep down, it’s true. It takes a stab at our innermost fears and they know it. That’s why they do it. How low can they go to emotionally murder you? Yes, that’s narcissistic.

I’m glad to be rid of my ‘friend’. I miss the good times we had and her sense of humor, when it wasn’t meanly directed at me. I don’t miss her using me and being a pain in the azz. I’m not angry at her for how she lashed out at me. That’s who she is; like when a wild animal is cornered, it will attack and bite. That’s what happened when you had a confrontation with your ex friend. People can turn on a dime.

Hmmm. All true, especially about the self-doubt. I guess we always had an unspoken agreement...to support one another. Like her husband makes her feel stupid a lot but she isn't at all. And I always told her how smart she was...how intuitively smart. Which was true.

This is really the first time she has turned on me and made me feel...so low and lacking in confidence. My mother is dead, my sister is dead, I am not close to my sister-in-law. She knows she fills an important space in my life as the "important female supporter".

As usual, Tish, you managed to hit the nail on the head. I am in such a vulnerable space right now...and that is what makes me so angry.

She knows how angry I am because for the first time I blocked her on all my social media.

Also...I actually appreciate female friends. I have always had female friends. I have always enjoyed a "sisterhood" of sorts. But this has affected my ability to trust.

I have a few other women I could connect with and maybe kindle a deeper relationship with...but my ability to trust has been injured.

She MUST know what she did...that she went beyond the line.

This is something I do wonder about with narcissists. Do they realize what they do? Certainly they must.

This person's memory is very sharp. She remembers things I don't...like she will remember the names of my coworkers from former jobs. It's crazy. So I can't imagine she can't remember the things she said. That confuses me.


I am sorry to say I HATE HATE HATE HATE the behaviors of narcissists. THEY should be the ones alone without friends. No matter HOW MUCH I READ ABOUT narcissists I can never fully understand them. I don't know how they can live in such a dark place of manipulation and vindictiveness. I can't understand their minds. I can't understand their souls.

Unlike you I am very, very, very angry at my friend. I guess I expect more from her. That's how I feel. She was raised by such loving parents so there is really nothing in her childhood that warped her. She warped herself. I would really like to throw a pie in her face or something very humiliating. One thing I realize about narcissists is they don't have a sense of humor. I do. Without a sense of humor I would surely be dead. I have teased this friend and she just doesn't get teasing.

If narcissists don't understand jokes, or wit, or teasing...they must exist in a dead space.

You said your friend had a wicked sense of humor. Perhaps she wasn't a full-blown narcissist. I think at their core narcissists are pretty dull. So maybe your friend was another brand of toxic.



And now...I have never had these kinds of emotions about her.

THE ONLY EXPLANATION I can come up with is that maybe she has become a secret drinker. She has an addictive personality. If she abuses a substances it really would...possibly throw her into psychosis. I know she drinks now...and she never drank up until now.

I'm the opposite. I drank early in life and gradually gave it up and now don't drink. It is the only explanation...that maybe she was drunk when she texted me...and she would NEVER admit to it. While I would confess such a think in a heartbeat.

If this is the case...she is doomed...as she will never get help. Too proud.

[TishaBuv]

My friend knew she went beyond the line, but she never had any respect for acknowledging any line whatsoever! I’d tell her, ‘Whatever thought pops into your head is what blurts out your mouth.’ She refused to hold anything back saying that’s who she is and she won’t tolerate “walking on eggshells” with me (as though I was way too sensitive). The things I let her get away with saying and didn’t get mad are astounding. The line she finally crossed was just way too far beyond what anyone would have allowed.

But, it seems you had a pretty healthy relationship with your friend until this fallout. She wanted to vent about her husband and you said you didn’t want to hear it. She must have not liked having her source of listener cut off and boundary set, so she went off on you in anger- yes, narcissistic.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

My friend knew she went beyond the line, but she never had any respect for acknowledging any line whatsoever! I’d tell her, ‘Whatever thought pops into your head is what blurts out your mouth.’ She refused to hold anything back saying that’s who she is and she won’t tolerate “walking on eggshells” with me (as though I was way too sensitive). The things I let her get away with saying and didn’t get mad are astounding. The line she finally crossed was just way too far beyond what anyone would have allowed.

But, it seems you had a pretty healthy relationship with your friend until this fallout. She wanted to vent about her husband and you said you didn’t want to hear it. She must have not liked having her source of listener cut off and boundary set, so she went off on you in anger- yes, narcissistic.

To everything you wrote...I say YES, YES, YES. I find in general a lot of people don't censor their thoughts. I was trained in Buddhism for years and there is something called, "Right Speech" and you know, there are a lot of exercises...so maybe I become more diplomatic. I don't spurt things out. And it is kind of a pleasure to be around seasoned Buddhist practitioners...because they are thoughtful. And everything is workable. Every conflict can be ironed out. So I was in that bubble for a long time.



But that "You're too sensitive," is the line insensitive people always use. I think it's sloppy to say...whatever you want to say...and then leave it up to others to clean up your verbal mess.

But this is very prevalent in our culture. Buddhism is anchored in the East...so there is the mentality that one doesn't just blurt things out.

The masters of measured speaking, tho, are Native Americans. I had a Native American friend...a very dear man...Cheyenne...and every single sentence he uttered was so measured. You know, so beautiful. And his silences, too, were so beautiful.

Okay so what you are saying is because I set a boundary my ex-friend had a baby-fied, temper tantrum? Lord.

I guess narcissists...are like...black and white. You are either for them or against them.

Well, freaking fvck that. I just got tired, tired, tired of her going on about him. Especially because I started to think...how he was always nice to me...and that is since I was a teenager. So now I really wonder...who the villian really is...in their household. For the last 30 years he has gone to old age homes to play the guitar. Like...he just has...a decent profile.

While I know for a fact she is insanely high maintenance.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

My friend knew she went beyond the line, but she never had any respect for acknowledging any line whatsoever! I’d tell her, ‘Whatever thought pops into your head is what blurts out your mouth.’ She refused to hold anything back saying that’s who she is and she won’t tolerate “walking on eggshells” with me (as though I was way too sensitive). The things I let her get away with saying and didn’t get mad are astounding. The line she finally crossed was just way too far beyond what anyone would have allowed.

But, it seems you had a pretty healthy relationship with your friend until this fallout. She wanted to vent about her husband and you said you didn’t want to hear it. She must have not liked having her source of listener cut off and boundary set, so she went off on you in anger- yes, narcissistic.

Okay, Tish, sometimes I am just blinded by your brilliance. What you have pointed out is...we have grown. We have grown to the point where we MUST set boundaries. And that's...uncomfortable and awkward...maybe, for us. But it's a damn good sign...of growth.

I once read that...you know you've set a boundary...because...someone will be angry.

So it is like we have put up with these big babies for years...and suddenly we can't anymore. My friend wasn't mean...but she was always very high maintenance. Like the princess who couldn't sleep because a pea was under her mattress.

Actually...that was my ex, too. I always called him a Prima Dona. Everything had to be...a certain way. He would refuse to eat a meal if I didn't "season" it correctly. A vacation would be ruined because of too much traffic. I used to tell him he was "girlish" -- but I think he remarried someone the same. My son would complain to me that before he finished eating they would whip his plate away and start washing it. He couldn't eat a cookie in the living room...because of...crumbs. Thank God I allowed my son to breathe and create big messes. He is an artist. He still creates messes..but now he makes money doing it.

It's all about control.

Well, I am glad we are becoming incapable of being controlled.

Better to be wildly old and messy. If I become homeless I think I will just get a tent and live out in the forest for a few months. (Would need a gun...mountain lions) I desperately need a retreat or a vision quest or something.

[TishaBuv]

Yes, these conflicts with friends that forced endings were about ‘good speech’! If mean, hurtful things weren’t said, we’d still be their friends.

Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation
It is also a concept that coms from Judaism. This is a site that sells a book all about what to and not to say. I study this book and still manage to open my big mouth and insert my foot way too often and that is my main problem. But it’s a work in progress.

I don’t know if narcissists have no sense of humor. I see high narcissistic qualities in that friend and others close to me and maybe even myself and we share good sense of humor. I do not have mean spirited sense of humor like some of them do, which I really don’t like and therein lies the difference IMHO.

I feel for you regarding the housing situation and pray you find somewhere safe to go.

[Open Eyes]

The label narcissist has become the label most commonly used to affix to people that are difficult or in someway need more attention or to stand out in some kind of grandiose way. Often it's an individual that did not stand out more in their childhood and there was some kind of ongoing unmet need that took place. Something that wounded their sense of self, a narcissistic injury of somekind. However, the other way this can develop is by being coached to feel entitled too and having everything done "for" you. And what many are taught is that if they get everything right, everything is somehow perfect, that it puts you on top and you get rewarded and have worth and deserve to be respected.

What I have learned about individuals that lean narcissistic is how they learn to "change" the narrative. It's a form of cheating and they learn how to manipulate and can even gaslight themselves. So basically, they begin to believe their own narrative which is why it can be hard to get to the truth and the WHY behind their distorted behaviors (cognitive distortions). Often, there is a deep seeded desire to stand out, to make up for their inability to somehow stand out in childhood, OR, that they were taught they are entitled to stand out too.

Actually, this behavior is observed in other primates where these primates that are born into the "superior" group simply learn they are entitled to privilages others not part of this group are allowed to have. Well, human primates practice this too. And that means it's pretty much in every culture too. There will always be that ruling class, it's part of our nature. It's pretty much in every group too. It's constantly marketed and monitored. And there will always be those that look for ways to manipulate their way towards obtaining status. So with that there will always be gaslighting and lies involved and varying degrees of pretending to care to make gains too. The higher up one gets the more prevalant it becomes. And for anyone that's climbed a ladder, it gets rather shakey up there so it's necessary to have others that can secure that from lower on the ground. Not only that but there is always someone on that ladder right behind in hopes to claim that higher level. It's just something that has always been there. The older one gets, the more life experience one has the more they see this reality. And that's why so many that are older say, "If only I knew then what I know now".

You know Dechan, it's very possible that this friend, even though she came from what you saw as a loving family, always saw that you had more. That your family had more wealth, a fancier and bigger home and maybe you had nicer clothes etc. Perhaps that was something she wanted, that's often the case and there was a bit of jealousy there that you did not notice. And that transcends beyond physical beauty or even the silly giggles. Maybe, she had a different idea of what that was supposed to be like and even though she has a nice house and material things, something is missing for her. Maybe her husband was good at impressing everyone else but her too. Maybe he is not the prince charming others think he is and she has not been happy in her palace. This happens all the time. All that glitters is not gold and she is now older and more aware of how stuck she is. And because she could not get you to see that, she blew up at you. And ofcourse, considering where you are right now in a genuine difficult place, the last thing you needed was for her to take all this anger out on you. Instead of seeing where you really are, she was seeing you as having more power than her and needing you to comfort her even though you are clearly in such a challenged place right now.

So as a result, you feel blindsided and that really can "hurt". There are times that a person is so self involved that they fail to see important things, things that are significant to another person. And when this happens it can hurt deeply and it can be easy to come to a conclusion the other person must be a narcissist. That's because narcissists are known to be very self involved and fail to recognize the needs of others and feel genuine empathy for them. And sometimes, a person can only pretend to care as they know it's important to do so in order to gain attention to themselves and get their needs met. And often they develop what is known as "fake petting" to keep others at least feeling like they are important, when in reality they are just used to hold up the ladder needed to feed the individuals ego.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

The label narcissist has become the label most commonly used to affix to people that are difficult or in someway need more attention or to stand out in some kind of grandiose way. Often it's an individual that did not stand out more in their childhood and there was some kind of ongoing unmet need that took place. Something that wounded their sense of self, a narcissistic injury of somekind. However, the other way this can develop is by being coached to feel entitled too and having everything done "for" you. And what many are taught is that if they get everything right, everything is somehow perfect, that it puts you on top and you get rewarded and have worth and deserve to be respected.

What I have learned about individuals that lean narcissistic is how they learn to "change" the narrative. It's a form of cheating and they learn how to manipulate and can even gaslight themselves. So basically, they begin to believe their own narrative which is why it can be hard to get to the truth and the WHY behind their distorted behaviors (cognitive distortions). Often, there is a deep seeded desire to stand out, to make up for their inability to somehow stand out in childhood, OR, that they were taught they are entitled to stand out too.

Actually, this behavior is observed in other primates where these primates that are born into the "superior" group simply learn they are entitled to privilages others not part of this group are allowed to have. Well, human primates practice this too. And that means it's pretty much in every culture too. There will always be that ruling class, it's part of our nature. It's pretty much in every group too. It's constantly marketed and monitored. And there will always be those that look for ways to manipulate their way towards obtaining status. So with that there will always be gaslighting and lies involved and varying degrees of pretending to care to make gains too. The higher up one gets the more prevalant it becomes. And for anyone that's climbed a ladder, it gets rather shakey up there so it's necessary to have others that can secure that from lower on the ground. Not only that but there is always someone on that ladder right behind in hopes to claim that higher level. It's just something that has always been there. The older one gets, the more life experience one has the more they see this reality. And that's why so many that are older say, "If only I knew then what I know now".

You know Dechan, it's very possible that this friend, even though she came from what you saw as a loving family, always saw that you had more. That your family had more wealth, a fancier and bigger home and maybe you had nicer clothes etc. Perhaps that was something she wanted, that's often the case and there was a bit of jealousy there that you did not notice. And that transcends beyond physical beauty or even the silly giggles. Maybe, she had a different idea of what that was supposed to be like and even though she has a nice house and material things, something is missing for her. Maybe her husband was good at impressing everyone else but her too. Maybe he is not the prince charming others think he is and she has not been happy in her palace. This happens all the time. All that glitters is not gold and she is now older and more aware of how stuck she is. And because she could not get you to see that, she blew up at you. And ofcourse, considering where you are right now in a genuine difficult place, the last thing you needed was for her to take all this anger out on you. Instead of seeing where you really are, she was seeing you as having more power than her and needing you to comfort her even though you are clearly in such a challenged place right now.

So as a result, you feel blindsided and that really can "hurt". There are times that a person is so self involved that they fail to see important things, things that are significant to another person. And when this happens it can hurt deeply and it can be easy to come to a conclusion the other person must be a narcissist. That's because narcissists are known to be very self involved and fail to recognize the needs of others and feel genuine empathy for them. And sometimes, a person can only pretend to care as they know it's important to do so in order to gain attention to themselves and get their needs met. And often they develop what is known as "fake petting" to keep others at least feeling like they are important, when in reality they are just used to hold up the ladder needed to feed the individuals ego.

Hmmm. All interesting stuff. Food for thought.


I might not have as much in material things at the moment as this person does...but I have a richness in education...having seven more years of schooling. I know she feels like she is lacking because she does not have advanced degrees. But she could have gone on for more schooling at any time in her life. So education is something I value because I think it gives us a wider perspective...and can really help in times of adversity. There are many ways to become educated including mental health programs, therapy, clubs, volunteering, work, spiritual communities, reading, attending lectures etc. This person doesn't engage in any of that. Her main hobby is shopping.


As to how she feels about her life, her husband, that she isn't happy in her situation -- that is something she should bring into a therapeutic situation.


I DO think she feels that friendship is a form of therapy...and maybe she uses friendships to complain. This is going to test the best friendship.


I sought out temporary counseling to talk about this situation and told her I did. Obviously it didn't fully satisfy me...as here I am! -- but I think of Psych Central as essential peer support and peer-led therapy, kind of. I hope that makes sense. The people here have a tremendous amount of experience.


As far as whether or not she is an authentic narcissist...I don't know. A lot of modern people exhibit narcissistic qualities. I think the exception is people in spiritual communities. People in spiritual and religious communities are trying to reduce egotism, and serve others. So in general people in these settings are better at inter-relational communication.


One thing that rings true is how narcissists create their own narrative. I have experienced this...and I truly find it the worst trait of a narcissist. They always seem to think THEIR WAY is the ONLY WAY. That is absurd. Life is totally relative. There is no one truth. The only way we can get along is if we can allow space for different views. However, we, of course, gravitate towards those with similar views.

I want to say that...I feel that this person has the right to feel however she wants. Everyone has that right. I was okay with her wanting to end the friendship. I was only NOT OKAY with her unnecessary verbal attack.

I think your narrative about her childhood and feeling I had more is not really true. We both were raised solidly middle class. My mother was extremely creative so mainly she knew how to "create magic" with her creative hand...and my friend really envied that and tried to emulate that in her adult life. Our house was rich in the creative arts, music, singing, playing instruments and things like that. We were allowed to paint and decorate our bedrooms with whatever themes we desired. My mother had a circle of very creative friends so it wasn't a solitary obsession. But my Mom was so much more than someone obsessed with appearances. My mother had a full-time career, earned advanced degrees late in life, and was a well-known activist...for those with mental health difficulties, the indigent elderly, and impoverished minorities.


Narcissists always try to "copy" others...but in a very shallow and superficial way. So, yes, they are always kind of "cheating" to come off as more than than are. I find that irritating.


I will confess that I am never totally comfortable with describing narcissists as such. After all, this is a personality disorder, and I am not a mental health professional.


But our culture does seem to display a lot of narcissistic qualities...which are seen as enviable. I think the present crisis in our country is due to an internal rupture because as a society essential needs are not being met...while narcissism...i.e. the social media culture...reflects unreality. A warped narrative.

You obviously had studied all this very deeply. Understanding a problem is so important. Ultimately it should lead to compassion.

It is "against the grain" for me to not be compassionate towards this person who I have known for a lifetime. But she has hurt me too deeply. It is going to take time. But you remind me that deep awareness and understanding is the ONLY WAY and the only road to compassion...which is the antidote for most ills of modern life.

Thank you for holding a space for compassion to arise. I am not yet ready...but I appreciate your balanced observations.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

Yes, these conflicts with friends that forced endings were about ‘good speech’! If mean, hurtful things weren’t said, we’d still be their friends.

Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation
It is also a concept that coms from Judaism. This is a site that sells a book all about what to and not to say. I study this book and still manage to open my big mouth and insert my foot way too often and that is my main problem. But it’s a work in progress.

I don’t know if narcissists have no sense of humor. I see high narcissistic qualities in that friend and others close to me and maybe even myself and we share good sense of humor. I do not have mean spirited sense of humor like some of them do, which I really don’t like and therein lies the difference IMHO.

I feel for you regarding the housing situation and pray you find somewhere safe to go.

Wow, it is very interesting to hear about how this concept of right speech is taught in other systems. I was raised Catholic and my parents were pretty strict about speech. We weren't allowed to say we hated someone. But we COULD say..."I hate it when you spit watermelon seeds at me." Haha. We were six kids including four wild boys so I guess my parents made allowances. Of course, no blasphemy, or cursing. I seem to be the only one in my family who swears as an adult. (When angry.)


Yes, there is a difference between a sense of humor and a mean sense of humor. It is subtle. I watch a lot of stand up comedians on YouTube (a distraction) and it is interesting how some are "gentle funny" while others are really mean-spirited.

I once knew a very down-and-out guy on the street. He was a veteran and an unfortunate alcoholic. Everyone loved him because he was very generous and kind...and made everyone laugh. His life was terrible. He always used to say, as a greeting, "Welcome into my Nightmare," the way someone else would welcome you into their home. When I think back I realize how "gentle funny" he was...just poking fun at the irony of life. I think true comics are always very sad.


I am going to pay closer attention to this. Krishnamurti was famous for saying, "Words kill. They can be true weapons of murder. So be careful." This is so true.

[sarahsweets]

To play devils' advocate... what would happen if you did write and send a letter to her?

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

To play devils' advocate... what would happen if you did write and send a letter to her?

I would not know. If she is a narcissist I think she wouldn't like it. Because in reading it she would have to be paying attention to me.

And as Open Eyes pointed out...she would probably turn anything I said into something else to use against me.

And that is another trait of narcissists. And I think this is the one thing that identifies a narcissist for me. They constantly TWIST things into a narrative of their own choosing. If they think they are right...then whatever facts to the contrary have to be twisted to suit them.

If you catch them lying about something they will say, "I didn't say that," or "I didn't do that."


Another thing she would say is, "I have always been there for you," which is also a lie because during hard times she often disappears for months, or even years. But she THINKS she has been available. That's what Open Eyes points out. That the narcissist gaslights themselves and believes their own lies.

I did send her a short text. I told her that her verbal attack actually made me ill. It traumatized me...and it made me seek out online counseling. I told her that I felt betrayed, devalued, and bullied. And that I didn't want to talk to her. I didn't say "forever," but I just said I didn't want to have contact now.


I learned in graduate school...that in conflict mediation one should always start sentences with "I..." as in "I feel..." and "I think..."


She started every sentence with "You are..." and "You think..." and "You feel..." which is very aggressive. Because one is making assumptions about the other person and controlling things with a narrative that may not be true.

When people make up a narrative it drives me crazy.


Some people...who are narcissistic...always have to be right. Life is about winning or losing. I can't imagine living that way...and I have a really difficult time trying to understand how a person thinks like that.

Maybe being in a marriage she sees as toxic has warped her. She wasn't always like this. I don't recognize her.

[TishaBuv]

“I DO think she feels that friendship is a form of therapy...and maybe she uses friendships to complain. This is going to test the best friendship.”

^I agree this was also the issue that sent your friendship downhill. She did too much venting to you about her husband. This especially put you in an awkward position as he was your friend, too. When you enforced a boundary that you don’t want to be involved in that anymore, she got vicious.

This was similar to what happened with my friend, too. Except, it was she who constantly called me and pried the negative information out of me getting me to vent, saying she was my concerned friend, then she’d throw my issues in my faced when it served her— narcissistic. I would try to not vent to my friends as it is too much and they are not your therapists. Plus, it’s not nice to vilify your spouse to mutual friends. That falls under the rules of improper speech BTW.

The final conflict with my friend was she called to pump me for negativity and I told her I did not want to discuss it. I was in a good mood, driving, minding my own business and she was trying to bring me down...maybe it made her feel better. She wouldn’t back off and started text bombing me, which I wouldn’t read. Later I got an email from her about how crazy I am. I responded that I think it’s she who is nuts. Then I never heard from her again. She could have simply apologized for overstepping boundaries and I’d have been her friend with no issue, moving forward, but she did not care enough about me to ever call me again. That’s how simply it ended. The lifelong friend who’d talk about how we’ll be together in the nursing home and still best friends.