Abandonment Issue

You hit the nail on the head - she does as she pleases, no matter how it effects you, and she has zero sympathy for you.

It's either extreme immaturity or narcissism on her part. I cannot diagnose of course, but from all your threads and posts, it does sound a lot like narcissism.

IF it's narcissism, that's very difficult to deal with. There is no resolution with a narcissist. And there is no validation.

I agree with Sara that the issue isn’t abandonment here but quality of marriage overall. Anyone would be upset with such scenarios and things your wife does .

I think maybe it’s too painful to address true issue, so focus is shifted to mundane things like what women wear and shaming women for enjoying dressing up or assigning interior motives to them wanting to look good. I think true issue is that your wife is not a good partner, no matter what she is wearing. You can force her to wear burlap sack but it won’t make your wife and this marriage better

Just to be clear -- personally, my intention in my posts was never to "shame" women for dressing up or for dressing in a way that makes them feel good. My intention wasn't to blame women either for the attention that some men may give them. My intention was to sympathize with the OP and support him in his feelings.

It's neither here nor there, really. We're all here to support the OP and not to argue and debate.

If you feel you cannot talk to her about any of your thoughts or feelings is a real problem. Stuffing down your feelings can eventually lead to blowing up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Have Hope Just to be clear -- personally, my intention in my posts was never to "shame" women for dressing up or for dressing in a way that makes them feel good. My intention wasn't to blame women either for the attention that some men may give them. My intention was to sympathize with the OP and support him in his feelings. It's neither here nor there, really. We're all here to support the OP and not to argue and debate.

Hey @Have Hope I never got the impression at all that you were shaming women. Nor did I think you were arguing. You had more details from the previous threads and you were sharing your thoughts because you knew the situation.

Thanks, @sarahsweets.

Yes, this is exactly the problem I keep running in to. Like you said, this particular instance by itself sounds like I'm being whiney, but it is a recurring problem and it isn't being addressed at all. If you want to go out with the girls and wear something cute, even a little sexy to feel good and you were classy about it, great. But her attitude and past actions have shown that this is not her intent. She was all excited running back and forth from the bathroom to the bedroom trying on outfits and doing makeup and didn't even see me and then runs ot the door and didn't even ask me how she looks or tell me she's going to miss me or any details about the night, just dinner with the girls and bye bye. Then she doesn't come back 'till 12:30. I know I shouldnt have, but I looked on her phone the next day and found out she went to a bar. It wasn't a restaraunt. Which again, in my logical brain, I'm guessing because of corona restrictions they probably closed the dance floor, but still. I have had this happen so many times, that it continues to inflame my anxieties. She could have said, "they probably have no dancing, but either way we are just going to sit at a table and have a couple drinks, I might be late but I'll keep in touch. I know it gives you anxiety so I'll touch base with you later." Nothing. None of that. Just gotta go, bye!

What makes you feel good inside? Would you be willing to compromise on that and find other avenues of happines to substitute part of it if you knew it caused your husband pain while he tried to heal from past wounds?

What I bolded here in your post would be the thoughtful and considerate thing to do within a marriage.

For example, my husband knows I get anxious when I don't hear back from him for many hours via text. So he'll check in when he can and will send brief messages to me to let me know he's seen my messages. That's the thoughtful, considerate thing to do.

I can understand why your anxieties were raised over this night out with her girlfriends. And because you felt the need to check her phone says that it raised your own mistrust. She is not doing anything to help ease your feelings of mistrust based on your past relationship issues. She is in fact almost feeding those feelings by acting the way she does.

What worries me is that your feelings don't get validated, you have no means to voice to her your feelings without her flipping the situation around on you, and you receive no sympathy from her for any of your anxieties that get triggered by her actions. And she takes little to no responsibility for her own actions.

So where does that leave you in this relationship? Basically powerless, voiceless and invalidated constantly.

Sadly, this is not an equal relationship, and she doesn't seem to care much about how YOU feel, which says a LOT.

Love should involve equal amounts of give and take. Love involves consideration of the other person's feelings and respect for the other person's feelings.

Someone earlier asked what you are getting out of this relationship, so I will add, what are you getting out of this relationship that is positive and which makes you feel loved, satisfied and happy? Is there anything?

SO many amazing comments here, I don't think I can add much, except to say that Guy, I think if you see worth in the marriage then it's absolutely the right thing imo for you to try and work out your own issues and your issues with your wife. Having said that, it does seem that you are maybe having some of the same issues that you had in your previous marriage. I'm really with Sarah in my belief that women should feel free to wear what they want. I wouldn't be pleased to see anyone subjugated (in any way) for for dressing as they please, but it does seem more of an issue that your wife is unwilling to address your fears. It does seem that she is dismissive, and I don't know if you see any patterns in your relationships with regards to attachment style? I know that I have had problems with having a disorganised attachment style, but especially have had problems attaching anxiously to dismissive partners, and I can see how this pattern has caused a lot of upset in my life. I hope you and your wife can both be happy, and feel free to be yourselves, whether together or apart

I do not do anything that causes my husband pain. What I do for happiness is conducive to my marriage and isn’t offensive to my husband, it’s harmless stuff. I don’t do anything questionable or inappropriate. If I enjoyed things that were painful for my husband, it’s very likely we wouldn’t be a good match to begin with.

I don’t believe in marrying people who do things and live life styles that we don’t approve and don’t support. Sure compromise is important but not compromising who you are at your core.

Going dancing and drinking with other men and not telling you details and being dismissive is who she is. It’s not suitable for you and I don’t blame you. It wouldn’t be suitable for me either.

Yes, I am starting to see the disconnect between her behavior or expression of herself and my issues. It's like a black and white incompatibility. I don't know what you do about that? Reading all these posts is really making me feel scared. I don't see any solution that involves staying married. We are a blended family with kids that need our support. I can't bear to see them hurt again if we split up. I know people will say that the kids feel the tension and it still causes them harm to stay together when things aren't right.

I don't really know much about attachment styles. I will do some research on that. Maybe I can get some more clarity there.

Thank you for your honest feedback!

This feels very damning to hear. I was abused as a child and have suffered my whole life from abusive people. I literally can't even comprehend a relationship like what you describe between you and your husband. If you are being totally honest then you are truly blessed.

Honestly, maybe you should plan a night out with the guys to the bar and get dressed up REALLY nice, maybe treat yourself to something new and put on colone and be happy to go out the door like she has. Maybe it would be good for her to see how it feels. I know that's not your style either and maybe you are too dependable for her and she takes advantage of that too much. And SHE would have to stay home for the children and wonder what you are doing especially since you looked so damn good when you rushed out the door.

(you don't have to go to a bar either, but instead go to an AA meeting). It sounds like she has gotten so used to you being so dutiful that she takes you for granted.

This is my second marriage. I was single a long time between my marriages. I’d not marry second time if it wasn’t right. It’s perfectly fine to stay single which I was intended to do if didn’t meet the right person.

People aren’t required to be married or stay married. It’s relatively easy to get out if its not good. I do understand meeting wrong people, I’ve met plenty. But I don’t have to marry them or stay married. Singlehood could be very enjoyable (especially comparing to a bad marriage)

Yes I am honest.

I don't know. I am going over everyone's posts and I just feel deflated. I'm trying to stay positive. I am looking at attachment theory. I'm getting burned out on psychology. There's only so much you can do to be a better person when at the end of the day you are attached to someone who won't change. Don't mean to be a bummer. I appreciate all your input.

I think you're realizing and seeing the incompatibility between you. It's a hard crash landing, especially when you've been working so hard on altering your own reactions and when when you're working SO hard on self improvement.

When your partner is not doing the same, it's very deflating. And it seems that no matter what you say to her, she won't budge or give you even an inch.

I hate to sound all doomsday, and I wish I could be a lot more positive about your relationship, but you're struggling SO much, and she doesn't give you any real hope for change, for improvement, for validation or for a happier marriage.

You may need to start considering the possibility of leaving her. I know you have a mixed family with children involved, but at some stage you have to ask yourself: AM I HAPPY? AM I FULFILLED? AND IS THIS HEALTHY FOR ME?

Edited to add:

It was ONLY when I told my husband I am leaving him and divorcing him, that he decided to make some much needed behavioral changes -- which he did. And as you know, there is still more to come that needs improvement. I got to another breaking point and told him (a second time), that I will leave him. He has since made additional changes and improvements, but that doesn't mean I will stay with him --- I need to see permanent and lasting changes.

But perhaps this little tidbit can give you some amount of hope, and when push comes to shove, maybe you need to lay down the line? The thought of breaking up a family and a new marriage can be daunting, but like I insinuated above, is it worth all of this CONSTANT MISERY AND PAIN? I would think not. Something to think about.

Thank you. Ya, I feel you on dealing with your husband and having to take drastic measures. You sound like you have more energy than me. Maybe the kids are wearing me out. But I'm glad to see that your hard work has paid off some. That is smart to be patient and make sure the changes are lasting. We all slip up from time to time, but you can tell when there is a heartfelt change.

You asked before how couples therapy is going. I do see a change in her about her anger level, but it's only when it comes to her issues with me. It is a nice break to not have to deal with that, but that was never my main issue with her. Yelling doesn't bother me for very long. I can just tune it out. I guess I'm hoping she runs out of steam and the therapist starts to focus more on me.

It's literally been 3 times that I just brought up my problem of not being able to share my feelings and all three times it was met with hostility. The therapist thinks I'm just a typical guy who doesn't want to talk alot about feelings maybe? Maybe she thinks I'm making it up as an excuse to not have to talk? She asked me what it would take for me to be comfortable to open up, and I told her that I just want to be heard and not attacked. Then she ended the last session saying, maybe next week we can talk about good communication styles.

I'm really just getting bored of this. I already know how to communicate effectively with people who are civil. I don't think I am the problem. Maybe I'm being arrogant?

Thanks, Guy, on my own situation.

And in reply, maybe your therapist isn't a very good therapist if he/she cannot reflect back to you accurately what you experience with your wife. Sounds like the therapist misses the whole point of what you're going through. A session on good communication styles could be helpful though. Maybe a session on how to listen (i,e, your wife) and validate each other's feelings and viewpoints.

@Guy111, at the root of many of your challenges is a history of individuals that chose to invalidate your value.

You experienced a marriage where your wife cheated on you and did not value you or your feelings. You have trauma in your history when it comes to others who were selfish and self absorbed and that affected your personal sense of value.

It's totally understandable that your wife getting dressed up sexy and going out and hunting for attention from strangers would trigger you. It's understandable that how you value her and make it a point to maintain a safe and good home at times feels unappreciated bringing on these feelings of not being valued. That feeling of how you are "not enough" and that your wife at times acts entitled can be triggering old hurts too. That there is no true depth behind her charming ways may be a reality about her that may be too hard to accept in that you want her to value and care for you so you don't get hurt like you did before.

It's commendable that your concern about what you choose to do isn't easy in that you genuinely don't want your choice to affect the children in this home you made for them.

Communication must contain messages to a partner that respect and value. It has to be mutual otherwise someone suffers. A partner has to care enough to work towards improving their communication.

Wow, I really appreciate that! It feels giod hearing that. It's crazy to me. It seems so simple. What you said totally makes sense. I was never treated like I mattered. I was abused and neglected by my parents at an early age. Although later in life they attempted to make up for it. I was too damaged by then. Then jumping right in to a marriage with a soul sucking narcissist. I really am getting a lot out of my own therapy. I keep telling myself to put my foot down in couples therapy and I never really do until the last minute. I think it's self sabatoge. I have to knock that off. Thanks again for your insights!!!

Ya, that's what I'm afraid of. Im trying to be positive and patient. Thanks for your encouragement!

It does seem very simple, yet when it comes to a person's sense of their own value there are many emotions experienced when that is challenged by another person. And when one's sense of personal value is challenged when they are just a child, the best they can do is to try and tune it out because a child has no idea what to do with the emotions they experience when a parent or parents challenge their personal sense of value. This can also be experienced from their piers and teachers as well. And a child is much too young to understand what projection is as most of the hurts they experience are projections from unhealthy indivduals, and that can include their own parents.

It's probable that your wife has abandonment challenges as well and part of the reason she has this need to dress up and flirt is because she needs to feel she has value to make up for lack of sense of value that can go way back for her. The same is true when you forgot her order or dates and times, she gets triggered. People can get pretty defensive and stubborn about the things they choose to do that help them gain their sense of personal value and relevance.

Growing up I watched my mother put a lot of effort in getting dressed up to look nice. As a little girl I thought it was fun and I loved seeing her get all dressed up. Yet, when she came down the stairs and my father saw her all dressed up he never once smiled and told her how nice she looked. Instead he looked for a way to find something wrong, a little spot, a hanging thread, anything to deflate how wonderful she felt. It was a terrible thing for his little girls to witness. The reason he did that with her is that it made him feel threatened because when he was around 12 his mother ran away and abandoned her two children. Yet, when I was a child I did not know about that, it was not talked about. Truth is that most of the unhealthy things I witnessed take place between my parents was connected to how my father was abandoned by his mother. My father was very controlling of my mother. So he normalized behaviors that were actually unhealthy. Often this can lead to a daughter picking the wrong partner too due to things that are familiar, when these things instead should be considered red flags of a potentially unhealthy relationship.

It's unfortunate, but one of the things individuals do when they want control is they use methods to devalue the other individual. Yet, at the same time many individuals can grow up in environments where they are emotionally neglected and devalued in some way. And some of this is projection but as I mentioned, a child isn't capable of understanding what that means. This can contribute to that individual struggling with cognitive dissonance where they are haunted by good thoughts and bad thoughts that affect their personal sense of value that developed in them from their childhood. This tends to be accompanied by anxiety and even depression. And as I mentioned earlier, other emotions that bubble up that a child has no idea what to do with. And thus forms a habit of stuffing these emotions or even seeking self medicating like alcohol use to bring some form of relief.

I see you are trying to work on these challenges that bubble up and cause you so much distress. And I know you desire to find a way to explain to your wife what it means to you to struggle with these emotions and you desire her to empathize and comfort you and help you feel "safe" and "loved". Well, unfortunately a lot of people lack the depth to do that, and many do have their own challenges with self worth. That's really the common problem when it comes to relationship challenges. A good therapist takes time learning about the things that contribute to personal challenges in each patient, then the goal is to help a couple work on interacting with each other where each one feels valued and respected and improves on their behaviors and communication with each other.

With your exwife, that would not work, she was only interested in her own needs and doesn't have the capacity to care about how others feel. That was never anything you could change about her either. Yet, as with your parents, she left you with some deep wounds, emotional wounds that can come up when your wife now behaves in certain ways. If only she could understand that and change her behaviors that trigger these challenges you experience. If only she knew how hard it is for you to TRY and not feel all these feelings. And then there is that question of "does she value me enough to have interest in reducing that challenge her behaviors create". Yet, if she does this to gain a sense of her own value, that can be very hard to get her to stop doing too.

What I am concerned about with you is that since you have been so devalued in your childhood and in life with partners, that you are used to and conditioned to receiving disrespect and disregard, which leads to accepting what are normally viewed as unacceptable behaviors from a partner. Your wife continues to disregard and devalue you, and you seem to accept this treatment, despite not liking it. That's the conditioning at play.

You had stated in a previous post that you didn't really mind her yelling at YOU (and you said that has stopped now). But yelling at your spouse should not be acceptable in any way shape or form, in my opinion. Yelling is not a part of a loving, healthy and respectful marriage. If she is still yelling, ranting and raving about other things on a frequent basis and is not directing it at you, do you feel that that is healthy? It really isn't.

You are also not given a voice or opinion in your marriage. Perhaps in your couples therapy, you could voice your feelings more and tell the therapist that your wife's continued dismissal of you is unacceptable treatment. Either she loves you and treats you with the respect and equality you deserve by respecting your feelings and opinions and by taking them into consideration, or this marriage isn't going to work.

Just my two cents.

Wow! You really summed my life up to a T. You have a great way of explaining things. I don't want to give up. It's so hard, and I thought about starting over or just being on my own. Those are options, if she just can't get it and she pulls me down too far. Thanks, you left an image in my mind that helps me see things more clearly!