Losing compassion

Etcetera1 · Jan 23, 2022, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

I have boundaries, but still remain open hearted. He is struggling to be happy with living, and so I feel squished between a rock and a hard place when he acts out towards me. Because .. I want him to feel loved I guess? I’m so accustomed to putting his needs ahead of mine. I have even put his wants ahead of my needs.

My dad was a lot like him, and it was the way I was raised to respond.

Ive always believed this can become a healthy relationship…but am I naive?

Do you mind me asking what you see as the difference between needs and wants in the way you put it here (bolded)?

It can't become a healthy relationship as it is now. You are close to burn out emotionally, he's dealing with at least 2 hard things at once that require a lot of discipline and focus and energy (addiction, new job).

Not a chance until after some rest, minimising stress in the relationship, and waiting until external circumstances (addiction, workplace) are not too demanding.

But it's possible it won't be any good even then. If that close to burn out it's still going to be a lot of work to repair it all so all the past resentment and mistrust goes away. And he'd have to put in the work too. It's NOT impossible, it has happened before, but he'd have to work on it too, not just you. And you'd have to be able to support his efforts too a bit.

And that certainly would NOT be now. He seems like he's already trying to work on the relationship, hear your feelings and so on, but he's not able to due to all the above. Adding a 3rd hard task, it does not seem possible, while you are burnt out too.

Cardooney · Jan 23, 2022, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etcetera1

That makes sense too.

Yeah, men's logic can try and fit the feelings into boxes like that.

Doesn't seem like he is capable of doing that currently. Which is why I suggested taking a break. Not a separation, just not talking to each other much for a while, unless maybe if it it's about something positive (or not even that).

And a separation if it doesn't get better long term, even after he fixed the addiction and got used to the new job and whatnot.

Yes, very possible this sounded threatening to him. With weak relationship skills, most guys will find negative information about the relationship status threatening, and will block it out, ignore it, or get angry, and so on. Instead of processing the communicated feeling in context and not blowing it out of proportion. And in this case, it could sound like you were talking about the relationship being very close to breaking up entirely, even if all you meant is that you need a little rest before you two can do things together again. Maybe best not to mention that you're not able to give more now as that is the threatening emotional information, just say that you are physically tired and need relaxation.

Just my suggestions. Good luck either way!

Thank you for your support and feedback. I wasn’t talking about the relationship when I was talking about sadness, but perhaps he interpreted it that way. I believe he was trying to give me a counseling session, and got annoyed because he didn’t think I was being a receptive pupil? He very clearly told me a couple times that I wasn’t doing anything about my feelings, and then he abruptly acted upset, stomped off while saying I think he “doesn’t understand why I would feel sad.”
Instead, I was feeling pestered by him making me repeat a list of things I was “doing for myself” to cure my sadness. And then acting annoyed with me because he thinks I’m not giving any EFFORT. He made sure to say it was effort I needed to give. Even though I said my solution was to relax and regenerate.
I guess he was afraid I would feel sad, at all. Hmm.
Then it must have been hard for him to think I could feel sad by my husband lacking basic compassion when he baited me into explaining my feelings to him. And for whose benefit?
This is why he wanted to point out that he is Not responsible for my feelings. That way he can act out emotionally however he wants, at the same time having no actual care about how I feel. I stopped believing he will care about how I feel a long time ago.

Etcetera1 · Jan 23, 2022, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

Thank you for your support and feedback. I wasn’t talking about the relationship when I was talking about sadness, but perhaps he interpreted it that way.

I'm glad if I could help a bit. And yes, that's absolutely possible.

Quote:

I believe he was trying to give me a counseling session, and got annoyed because he didn’t think I was being a receptive pupil? He very clearly told me a couple times that I wasn’t doing anything about my feelings, and then he abruptly acted upset, stomped off while saying I think he “doesn’t understand why I would feel sad.”

Yeah, looks like he doesn't get the way you process your feelings.

Quote:

Instead, I was feeling pestered by him making me repeat a list of things I was “doing for myself” to cure my sadness. And then acting annoyed with me because he thinks I’m not giving any EFFORT. He made sure to say it was effort I needed to give. Even though I said my solution was to relax and regenerate.

Is he the kind of guy that thinks effort is very important in everything? And hardly values relaxing?

Quote:

I guess he was afraid I would feel sad, at all. Hmm.
Then it must have been hard for him to think I could feel sad by my husband lacking basic compassion when he baited me into explaining my feelings to him. And for whose benefit?
This is why he wanted to point out that he is Not responsible for my feelings. That way he can act out emotionally however he wants, at the same time having no actual care about how I feel. I stopped believing he will care about how I feel a long time ago.

It does sound like very bad emotional communication between you two.

Yes, I would agree that he would not be able to emotionally tolerate it hearing from you or even just (mistakenly) thinking that you were saying that his basic lack of compassion made you feel sad.

Like, it would translate to him as, he's not able to make you happy and then it would make him feel like a bad person or like he's inadequate. So it's easier for him to get angry instead and blame you. (This is just one possible interpretation of what was going on, but a lot of guys typically think like this)

So go for low stress for now in the relationship if separation is not an option.

Then when he doesn't have to deal with too many extra demands outside the relationship, and doesn't have to spend so much of his discipline on getting rid of the addiction, couples therapy can help with improving the communication and with finding ways to have more positive experiences and positive interactions in the relationship between you two.

If that still doesn't help, then probably it's too much incompatibility between you two, and you two would have to find a way to have some working distance in the relationship to tolerate living together OK, or just separate.

***

I am still wondering what you meant by putting his wants in front of your needs. The way I read it, it sounded wrong to me on a gut level. Everyone has important basic needs and even wants and a healthy relationship doesn't require neglecting your basic needs. Allowing the other person to have all their wants satisfied in a relationship by letting them be more important than your needs will make them just more selfish and want and demand more, too and it can contribute to the demise of the relationship.

PS: One last thing I can think of. You mentioned your dad being similar to your husband. Perhaps that also plays a role in all this, yes, so you could reflect on that too.

Cardooney · 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etcetera1

Do you mind me asking what you see as the difference between needs and wants in the way you put it here (bolded)?

It can't become a healthy relationship as it is now. You are close to burn out emotionally, he's dealing with at least 2 hard things at once that require a lot of discipline and focus and energy (addiction, new job).

Not a chance until after some rest, minimising stress in the relationship, and waiting until external circumstances (addiction, workplace) are not too demanding.

But it's possible it won't be any good even then. If that close to burn out it's still going to be a lot of work to repair it all so all the past resentment and mistrust goes away. And he'd have to put in the work too. It's NOT impossible, it has happened before, but he'd have to work on it too, not just you. And you'd have to be able to support his efforts too a bit.

And that certainly would NOT be now. He seems like he's already trying to work on the relationship, hear your feelings and so on, but he's not able to due to all the above. Adding a 3rd hard task, it does not seem possible, while you are burnt out too.

It would probably be easier for him to finish his mental health plan before taking on a job, but he decided to pursue a job although his doctor signed a paper saying he is unable to work right now. All I can do is support him and try not to stand in his way because there is no chance he would heed any concern of mine. Perhaps his self-worth needs a job or he wants the money because he is a spender, it’s part of his coping skills, which is why he’s resorted to collecting free things on Craigslist so at least he can have new stuff.

There is resentment for me with the spending because he dashes any wealth we have and when I say I’m worried we will end up with nothing, he only says we’re fine. He tried to put our house as collateral on a bad idea, I did not agree, he did not care if agreed and said he would do it without me. Luckily the bank turned him down or we’d be homeless I guess because his idea tanked and “we” owe $38k on it because he managed to get a different loan that didn’t leverage our house. He did not give one second of pause or thought about what if we lost our house (our only source of wealth and no back up money, and no relatives with money to help out).

He gets angry and very mean to me when I stand in the way of his spending (more in the past but also not so long ago). So I guess within that are many times his wants come before my needs. Mostly because he believes he needs the things he wants. He behaves like if he does not get what he wants, then something very bad will happen. It has to with his tendencies and need to avoid his trauma as it turns out. There is only so much to go around and he gobbles it up before you can blink. Also, I guess I put aside basic emotional needs to cater to his wants (which he believes are needs to survive). Should I have catered to it? No but I was raised to be this way and only overcame it after years of counseling. Then I went to work and have been supporting the family the last four years. He has contributed too of course, but he takes far more than his share. Is this financial tension why he insists to hurry back to work? I don’t think it’s because of my thoughts about it.

He has changed his mind several times about a job, which job, in the last two weeks. He changes his mind almost every day. He is struggling and doing his best. He is handed new therapy tools but he is learning how to use them and not always using them as intended. He took one therapy tool, used it to his detriment unfortunately, and ended up back inpatient in worse shape than before. He overcame that.

The marriage counseling started because he was in a holding pattern and had not pursued the therapy the doctor ordered and it was like navigating a minefield around here. Even our son stopped speaking to him completely for months because of his aggressive angry attitude that he had been splashing around every chance he could get. My son straight asked me why I stay and how I tolerate him.

Things were so tense and feeling hopeless. I said I wanted to do counseling and he agreed because I said it has become a requirement for me. He then skipped our first session and went inpatient the next day. The timing was a coincidence since he had been heading towards breakdown already. I’m not sure if the counseling helps, it doesn’t seem to hurt.

He has a lot of work to do on the relationship, but he can’t care about that if he doesn’t care about himself, which is a big struggle for him. He needs me to care about him and pump him up but that’s hard to do when the relationship gets to be in such poor shape. I just try to give him space and I am a stable even keeled type person, which he relies on. Also, he has ignored me and our kids almost completely.

In ways I don’t understand how I’ve stayed, in ways I don’t understand how I could break it up. He recently told me he’s likely a burden and I can leave him and be with someone else. He also says the reason he is still alive is for me and the kids. But he’s trying to want to live for himself too.

Cardooney · 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etcetera1

I'm glad if I could help a bit. And yes, that's absolutely possible.

Yeah, looks like he doesn't get the way you process your feelings.

Is he the kind of guy that thinks effort is very important in everything? And hardly values relaxing?

It does sound like very bad emotional communication between you two.

Yes, I would agree that he would not be able to emotionally tolerate it hearing from you or even just (mistakenly) thinking that you were saying that his basic lack of compassion made you feel sad.

Like, it would translate to him as, he's not able to make you happy and then it would make him feel like a bad person or like he's inadequate. So it's easier for him to get angry instead and blame you. (This is just one possible interpretation of what was going on, but a lot of guys typically think like this)

So go for low stress for now in the relationship if separation is not an option.

Then when he doesn't have to deal with too many extra demands outside the relationship, and doesn't have to spend so much of his discipline on getting rid of the addiction, couples therapy can help with improving the communication and with finding ways to have more positive experiences and positive interactions in the relationship between you two.

If that still doesn't help, then probably it's too much incompatibility between you two, and you two would have to find a way to have some working distance in the relationship to tolerate living together OK, or just separate.

***

I am still wondering what you meant by putting his wants in front of your needs. The way I read it, it sounded wrong to me on a gut level. Everyone has important basic needs and even wants and a healthy relationship doesn't require neglecting your basic needs. Allowing the other person to have all their wants satisfied in a relationship by letting them be more important than your needs will make them just more selfish and want and demand more, too and it can contribute to the demise of the relationship.

PS: One last thing I can think of. You mentioned your dad being similar to your husband. Perhaps that also plays a role in all this, yes, so you could reflect on that too.

Even more so, he prob doesn’t get the way he processes his feelings.
He relaxes, sleeps and watches movies when he is depressed or wants to. He isn’t effort focused necessarily. Like he will leave something broken and it doesn’t bother him.
He was bothered I was sad, it could be because he said he was excited, and he stressed about the difference. He may have thought I was sad because of the relationship, or he may have been reacting to me saying I only felt worse after opening up to him (i said after he stomped away, told me to get counseling, and said I was doing nothing to help my sadness, even when I assured him I would be fine).
I try to give him a lot of space and it’s easier for me to that way too right now.
I don’t know what the future holds.
Yes, sadly I was conditioned into a dysfunctional relationship with my dad.

sarahsweets · Jan 24, 2022, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

I’m shaky today being around him. He asked me how I felt yesterday (he was doing his own daily check in and I guess wanted to involve me, having me check in emotionally). I was honest and said I was feeling some sadness. He said we should explore that after he buys weed and smokes. So when he is ready he asks me why I’m sad. I sensed he wasn’t asking for reasons of comfort or care, more like he was challenging me about what in the world I should feel sad about. I opened up anyway and told him how I was feeling. I even sad sadness might not be the word, but that I was feeling a lack of other feelings and was feeling depleted and was needing to regenerate (I just came out of the hospital, they thought I might have life threatening clot but didn’t). He again challenged me with what am I doing about my feelings? I gave a list of things I had been doing that day, and said my plan was just to take it easy. He again challenged me, asking “but what are my efforts?” I repeated my efforts, and said I am fine, that I think I’m feeling normally as someone would considering what I’d just been through, and that it should resolve with time. I did sense he was poking at me for no reason instead of just accepting me, or shoot, even saying something nice. I said I think I’m doing alright considering, ffs. I didn’t say ffs to offend him, but more like thinking back over everything I had endured in the hospital because it was tough. He stomped off while sarcastically thanking me for the great talk. I guess he thought he was trying to help me and I wasn’t receptive? He said I need to get a counselor, and that my message to him was how the f could he not understand that I feel sad (which upset him?).
I got quite flustered since I was already feeling depleted, and pointed out how he asked me how I felt, I opened up, and all that came of it was I felt worse engaging him. It was my way to say thanks but no thanks, I guess. He then starts sending me articles about how other people are not responsible for one’s feelings. I guess that’s a way to make himself look good? I asked him why he is sending me these articles, and he said it’s self explanatory, and that I’m a smart person who should be able to figure it out. I told him I hadn’t made him responsible for my feelings, and that when talking about my feelings I hadn’t mentioned him at all. He said he wanted to educate me about my behavior so that I can be in the same page as him. I said I really didn’t need him to teach me anything, and he told me my ego stinks.
I left for a few hours to be away from him. When I got back he asked where I went and I said I took a drive since things weren’t going in a healthy way. He said he hopes I got what I needed from my drive and then walked away to do his own thing.
There were other similar happenings the evening before with him telling me I should have done this, that, and the other (about our kids homework), and degrading my efforts FOR NO REASON. I kept trying to redirect it or defend myself or explain, but he just continued to criticize me. He said my kid and I are doing nothing to help the situation (although we had literally just been addressing the situation). I asked him to clarify his comment-was he saying our efforts are zero? And he said yes she and I are doing nothing. I said to him that actually he is the one doing nothing except criticizing me. He didn’t like that and wanted to be away from me (hid in the back yard).
Today, he tries to act like nothing happened. I was minimally responding to his small talk this morning because I am nervous to engage him, and he was asking about whether my health issue has resolved or returned. I said I’m good. I was anxious. He sneezed and I said bless you, but I guess it wasn’t loud enough, so he said “oh wow! You can’t even manage a bless you!” I said I actually did say bless you, and he said that if so, I hadn’t said it loud enough for anyone to have heard it. I said that these interactions aren’t like self-healing material, rather they take effort to heal. He said he has no idea what I’m talking about, and he left.
Now he’s back with a book from the library. Maybe he will want to educate me, but hopefully he focuses on soothing himself because i don’t know that engaging with him will bring anything positive.
He won’t apologize for criticizing me unnecessarily, stomping off, being rude,and “shoulding” me (he tells me this is a big no-no) because of course it’s me who did something wrong (what though??). I think he is in a childish state right now. I have unconditional love for him it seems. I don’t want to encourage his selfish behavior (I did tell him I thought he was being selfish yesterday).
What does he get out of telling me again an again that I make no effort, and am not doing what I should? What does he think “helping myself and taking responsibility for my feelings looks like for me?
I suspect he is projecting, and said yesterday that I think he is projecting onto me.
Also- I think this could have been his way of “getting back at me” because I had asked him the day before about whether he will be able to do his addiction counseling (part of his mental health plan) now that he just took a new job (when I thought he was holding off working for awhile since he was just inpatient twice in the last month). Since I was in the hospital he was smoking even more due to his worry and smoking very heavily once I was home.

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Etcetera1 · Jan 25, 2022, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

It would probably be easier for him to finish his mental health plan before taking on a job, but he decided to pursue a job although his doctor signed a paper saying he is unable to work right now. All I can do is support him and try not to stand in his way because there is no chance he would heed any concern of mine. Perhaps his self-worth needs a job or he wants the money because he is a spender, it’s part of his coping skills, which is why he’s resorted to collecting free things on Craigslist so at least he can have new stuff.

There is resentment for me with the spending because he dashes any wealth we have and when I say I’m worried we will end up with nothing, he only says we’re fine. He tried to put our house as collateral on a bad idea, I did not agree, he did not care if agreed and said he would do it without me. Luckily the bank turned him down or we’d be homeless I guess because his idea tanked and “we” owe $38k on it because he managed to get a different loan that didn’t leverage our house. He did not give one second of pause or thought about what if we lost our house (our only source of wealth and no back up money, and no relatives with money to help out).

He gets angry and very mean to me when I stand in the way of his spending (more in the past but also not so long ago). So I guess within that are many times his wants come before my needs. Mostly because he believes he needs the things he wants. He behaves like if he does not get what he wants, then something very bad will happen. It has to with his tendencies and need to avoid his trauma as it turns out. There is only so much to go around and he gobbles it up before you can blink. Also, I guess I put aside basic emotional needs to cater to his wants (which he believes are needs to survive). Should I have catered to it? No but I was raised to be this way and only overcame it after years of counseling. Then I went to work and have been supporting the family the last four years. He has contributed too of course, but he takes far more than his share. Is this financial tension why he insists to hurry back to work? I don’t think it’s because of my thoughts about it.

He has changed his mind several times about a job, which job, in the last two weeks. He changes his mind almost every day. He is struggling and doing his best. He is handed new therapy tools but he is learning how to use them and not always using them as intended. He took one therapy tool, used it to his detriment unfortunately, and ended up back inpatient in worse shape than before. He overcame that.

The marriage counseling started because he was in a holding pattern and had not pursued the therapy the doctor ordered and it was like navigating a minefield around here. Even our son stopped speaking to him completely for months because of his aggressive angry attitude that he had been splashing around every chance he could get. My son straight asked me why I stay and how I tolerate him.

Things were so tense and feeling hopeless. I said I wanted to do counseling and he agreed because I said it has become a requirement for me. He then skipped our first session and went inpatient the next day. The timing was a coincidence since he had been heading towards breakdown already. I’m not sure if the counseling helps, it doesn’t seem to hurt.

He has a lot of work to do on the relationship, but he can’t care about that if he doesn’t care about himself, which is a big struggle for him. He needs me to care about him and pump him up but that’s hard to do when the relationship gets to be in such poor shape. I just try to give him space and I am a stable even keeled type person, which he relies on. Also, he has ignored me and our kids almost completely.

In ways I don’t understand how I’ve stayed, in ways I don’t understand how I could break it up. He recently told me he’s likely a burden and I can leave him and be with someone else. He also says the reason he is still alive is for me and the kids. But he’s trying to want to live for himself too.

Well I can see how it feels hard for you to decide what to do with all this relationship. You have that compassion for his bad state and he has some insight too in his clearer moments, but he's also pretty much a burden close to ruining your life and the lives of the kids. I didn't read the whole thread so I apologise if this has come up before, but what if separation for like a year would actually be useful? It may be helpful to him if he didn't have to feel like a burden, and could pull himself together alone. And then afterwards see if you two go your separate ways forever or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

Even more so, he prob doesn’t get the way he processes his feelings.
He relaxes, sleeps and watches movies when he is depressed or wants to.

Probably, yeah, they end up getting "taken care of" on their own if he gets lucky is my guess, while he's distracting himself. Not real processing of course. But then for guys, it usually isn't necessary and can be a burden to them to focus on all of the feelings so closely. Just when something is actually important and very meaningful. (I am generalising, I don't know him obviously)

Quote:

He isn’t effort focused necessarily. Like he will leave something broken and it doesn’t bother him.
He was bothered I was sad, it could be because he said he was excited, and he stressed about the difference. He may have thought I was sad because of the relationship, or he may have been reacting to me saying I only felt worse after opening up to him (i said after he stomped away, told me to get counseling, and said I was doing nothing to help my sadness, even when I assured him I would be fine).
I try to give him a lot of space and it’s easier for me to that way too right now.
I don’t know what the future holds.
Yes, sadly I was conditioned into a dysfunctional relationship with my dad.

The last line is why maybe going a different way you've been going before (ideally, mutually deciding with him on separation, temporary or not) could help in changing that old pattern too with your father.

Rive. · Jan 25, 2022, 08:37 AM

He is simply not there for you in any way. Yet, he expects you to dance to his tune.

You mentioned losing your compassion for him but the way I see it, you are losing yourself in this relationship.

Cardooney · Jan 26, 2022, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etcetera1

Well I can see how it feels hard for you to decide what to do with all this relationship. You have that compassion for his bad state and he has some insight too in his clearer moments, but he's also pretty much a burden close to ruining your life and the lives of the kids. I didn't read the whole thread so I apologise if this has come up before, but what if separation for like a year would actually be useful? It may be helpful to him if he didn't have to feel like a burden, and could pull himself together alone. And then afterwards see if you two go your separate ways forever or not.

Probably, yeah, they end up getting "taken care of" on their own if he gets lucky is my guess, while he's distracting himself. Not real processing of course. But then for guys, it usually isn't necessary and can be a burden to them to focus on all of the feelings so closely. Just when something is actually important and very meaningful. (I am generalising, I don't know him obviously)

The last line is why maybe going a different way you've been going before (ideally, mutually deciding with him on separation, temporary or not) could help in changing that old pattern too with your father.

My father is long gone. I probably or would have needed to cut him out of my life had he been alive the last 20 years.

I can’t call my husband a burden because I value him, but you are very right that his actions have great bearing on my life and my child’s life. I do not want to contribute towards negatively affecting my child if there is a solution to avoid it.

I struggle to know what’s most right.

it cannot stay the way it is. That’s not happening.

We had a great counseling session tonight. I was able to bring up some of this stuff and eventually be heard. the counselor’s presence made it possible. Its a good step. I will not be unhappy for the rest of my life willingly.

Cardooney · Jan 26, 2022, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rive.

He is simply not there for you in any way. Yet, he expects you to dance to his tune.

You mentioned losing your compassion for him but the way I see it, you are losing yourself in this relationship.

I 50% agree that he is not there for me, and 100% agree he expects me to dance to his tune.

I definitely lost myself in this relationship. Right when it started. It’s not been healthy. On one hand we’ve managed to stay together and love each other, but the dynamic and interactions have been so bad.

I got a glimmer of hope today when counseling session ended.

Cardooney · Jan 26, 2022, 10:45 AM

I think this interaction right after counseling sums up something about our dynamic:

Him: I’m sorry I wasn’t there for you how you needed after you came out of the hospital.
Me: thank you for that. You asked me how I was, but then made it about you. (I prob didn’t need to say this, but it was the last thing I wanted to say and hadn’t).
Him: that’s just your opinion
Me: at some point my opinion/how I feel will need to matter to you
Him: you’re saying I don’t care how you feel, and that’s wrong
Me: I’m saying when I tell you my perception, feelings, and all you say is it’s my opinion, it kinda speaks for itself (he has said this opinion thing to me before)
Him: silence and goes outside to smoke

It’s progress I think? Especially since he did apologize, which is a big deal for him

Have Hope · Jan 27, 2022, 07:22 AM

To me, "that's just your opinion" is completely invalidating of your feelings.

Cardooney · Jan 27, 2022, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Have Hope

To me, "that's just your opinion" is completely invalidating of your feelings.

Yes, it is invalidating to me. He’s said it often when I express something. I believe he wants to control what I think of his behavior rather than caring about how his behavior and reactions affect me. And It’s easier and safer for him to be dismissive of me and hope I’ll drop any issue.

Etcetera1 · 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

I think this interaction right after counseling sums up something about our dynamic:

Him: I’m sorry I wasn’t there for you how you needed after you came out of the hospital.
Me: thank you for that. You asked me how I was, but then made it about you. (I prob didn’t need to say this, but it was the last thing I wanted to say and hadn’t).
Him: that’s just your opinion
Me: at some point my opinion/how I feel will need to matter to you
Him: you’re saying I don’t care how you feel, and that’s wrong
Me: I’m saying when I tell you my perception, feelings, and all you say is it’s my opinion, it kinda speaks for itself (he has said this opinion thing to me before)
Him: silence and goes outside to smoke

It’s progress I think? Especially since he did apologize, which is a big deal for him

Yes, him apologising is great. Sounds like the counselling session helped with that. As for the rest of the convo, what I would try instead is, just appreciate him having apologised, express that appreciation (which you already did), and give him something concrete that he can do to be able to be there for you in a better way in future.

As a summary, what I think is: If most of your convos are like that, then no wonder that it won't lead anywhere, as he won't be able to magically become emotionally mature and emotionally giving to you and take care of your - otherwise understandable - resentment while also trying to deal with the addiction, the new job, and all expectations at once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

Yes, it is invalidating to me. He’s said it often when I express something. I believe he wants to control what I think of his behavior rather than caring about how his behavior and reactions affect me. And It’s easier and safer for him to be dismissive of me and hope I’ll drop any issue.

Yes it was dismissive of your thoughts, though to me it does not seem like he wanted to force you into thinking something else specifically.

Overall, to me it came off as, when he's not overburdened, he cares about how he affects you but he needs to focus on concrete actions, problem solving to be able to do it in practice.

Cardooney · Jan 27, 2022, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etcetera1

Yes, him apologising is great. Sounds like the counselling session helped with that. As for the rest of the convo, what I would try instead is, just appreciate him having apologised, express that appreciation (which you already did), and give him something concrete that he can do to be able to be there for you in a better way in future.

As a summary, what I think is: If most of your convos are like that, then no wonder that it won't lead anywhere, as he won't be able to magically become emotionally mature and emotionally giving to you and take care of your - otherwise understandable - resentment while also trying to deal with the addiction, the new job, and all expectations at once.

Yes it was dismissive of your thoughts, though to me it does not seem like he wanted to force you into thinking something else specifically.

Overall, to me it came off as, when he's not overburdened, he cares about how he affects you but he needs to focus on concrete actions, problem solving to be able to do it in practice.

Side note- I think counselor feedback introduced the idea of him “being there for me” so he apologized in that way. He said during session that he could/should have just rubbed my feet or something when he was “worried” about me. (instead of questioning me thoughtlessly and then telling me I’m not doing enough for no reason, and then saying I blame him for how I feel and I should learn to be responsible for myself).

And I see that I wanted him to apologize for trashing on me when he thought I was down, instead of him apologizing that he didn’t rub my feet. Im at the point where I just don’t want him disrespecting me and I expect little else. I think I’m happier when he is ignoring me :-( because the risk of his negative attention.

I’m moving on from it now, but I was annoyed that he was in my opinion lying to the counselor about his motives and I had to call him out in front of her taking guts to do so, and then he eventually came more clean to her about how he treated me, but really doesn’t take ownership of it. For whatever reason I don’t know.

He told me yesterday that he had almost reached out to his abuser to have a kindly conversation. I was shocked because it is very out of the blue, and asked him if it was because of the book he is reading influencing him. He said yes, but that he stopped himself eventually from reaching out. I told him I was glad he didn’t do that, and it could be like self harm and very triggering/dangerous for his mental health. He agreed and then wrote himself a note that not contacting that person is a rule.

So this helped me realize how unstable he is still, and it makes more sense how he acts so off to me since it seems his mind is all over the place trying to understand and implement these tools that he is getting. Although the book he found on his own perhaps and not something he received from doctors.

Etcetera1 · Jan 27, 2022, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

Side note- I think counselor feedback introduced the idea of him “being there for me” so he apologized in that way. He said during session that he could/should have just rubbed my feet or something when he was “worried” about me. (instead of questioning me thoughtlessly and then telling me I’m not doing enough for no reason, and then saying I blame him for how I feel and I should learn to be responsible for myself).

And I see that I wanted him to apologize for trashing on me when he thought I was down, instead of him apologizing that he didn’t rub my feet. Im at the point where I just don’t want him disrespecting me and I expect little else. I think I’m happier when he is ignoring me :-( because the risk of his negative attention.

I’m moving on from it now, but I was annoyed that he was in my opinion lying to the counselor about his motives and I had to call him out in front of her taking guts to do so, and then he eventually came more clean to her about how he treated me, but really doesn’t take ownership of it. For whatever reason I don’t know.

He told me yesterday that he had almost reached out to his abuser to have a kindly conversation. I was shocked because it is very out of the blue, and asked him if it was because of the book he is reading influencing him. He said yes, but that he stopped himself eventually from reaching out. I told him I was glad he didn’t do that, and it could be like self harm and very triggering/dangerous for his mental health. He agreed and then wrote himself a note that not contacting that person is a rule.

So this helped me realize how unstable he is still, and it makes more sense how he acts so off to me since it seems his mind is all over the place trying to understand and implement these tools that he is getting. Although the book he found on his own perhaps and not something he received from doctors.

Hm yes that makes complete sense to me about what you said about him trying to understand feelings but ending up in the wrong place about it all. So yes, I would agree it sounds like his mind is all over the place trying to implement all these tools to understand you better plus the addiction plus the new job.

On top of all that, I would think for him it would take a lot of emotional understanding and giving to be able to take ownership for how he hurt you when he was being insensitive, pushy and invalidating your feelings when he should've supported you in the first place and not treat you like an object to fix. Even if his intentions were originally good.

So both these are good examples for how he's being all over the place with trying to use the new tools. Both the thing about his idea about the abuser, and the thing with trying to support you but failing at it and doing the opposite instead.

Cardooney · 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etcetera1

Hm yes that makes complete sense to me about what you said about him trying to understand feelings but ending up in the wrong place about it all. So yes, I would agree it sounds like his mind is all over the place trying to implement all these tools to understand you better plus the addiction plus the new job.

On top of all that, I would think for him it would take a lot of emotional understanding and giving to be able to take ownership for how he hurt you when he was being insensitive, pushy and invalidating your feelings when he should've supported you in the first place and not treat you like an object to fix. Even if his intentions were originally good.

So both these are good examples for how he's being all over the place with trying to use the new tools. Both the thing about his idea about the abuser, and the thing with trying to support you but failing at it and doing the opposite instead.

And I worry because he isn’t doing anything yet about his addiction, and he hasn’t even started the new job. He hasn’t started trauma therapy or addiction counseling. So things will probably get harder from here. I wouldn’t say he was or is trying to use his tools to understand me. He was using tools to be superior over me, etc which is why I was not receptive whatsoever. Or best case scenario, he thought I was feeling something he thinks I shouldn’t have been and thought it was his duty to change that.

He told me he was going to call his brother because he wanted to share his progress and wanted to let his brother know that he “found a way to protect them.”
I cautioned him a bit saying maybe he’s triggered and to maybe slow down a bit and be careful, and also pointed out how he said he was protecting him and his brother (part of his trauma thinking) and that it’s not his job to protect his brother. (His brother is fine and the trauma happened over 30 years ago).
He said “I don’t value you” and made a twiddly gesture with his fingers, like maybe to mimic someone talking? I said I know you don’t value me, and remade the twiddly gesture.

He said weird stuff to our kid today, she told me. Made no sense what he was saying to her. Giving her weird advice and projecting weird thoughts onto others, really off base. When she and I went to a concert the other night, he kept giving weird cautions about people at concerts and what people are like at concerts. Of course nothing what he said turned out to be true whatsoever.

I just now saw the checking account is overdrawn, and we don’t have much in savings. I came out to the computer to get a better look because I was very surprised it was overdrawn. I said our account is overdrawn! And he was like oh big deal, that’s how money works, money comes and money goes. I was like oh really? Im working hard for it thank you very much. And he asked to me repeat that a few times like he couldn’t hear me. And he said that I’ve only been working for four years. I said it’s not about that it’s that we have to manage our money and watch how much is in the account. He’s like well good thing you looked all you have to do is transfer money from savings. (I didn’t want to touch savings and there is no reason we should have had to. I just cashed out 65 vacation hours I didn’t use last year so we even had extra. I swear I spent like $190 of that on extras, and half of that was for a medical device I need, the other half the concert). He says don’t let it ruin your night, don’t catastrophize money. I said I’m not, I’m just speaking about money realistically. He says he was free to spend money basically because he starts working on Monday. I said yeah you haven’t started yet.

I’m so tired of sharing a bank account with him.

I see him having a great time doing his own thing it seems, and mostly all or all of our interactions are poor.

Our child wants me to divorce him. She told me that a few days ago, and she reiterated it tonight. She said he is emotionally and verbally abusive to me. And that she feels like downstairs is a minefield around him. :-( she said she feels like she can’t tolerate these conditions any longer. She feels guilty about it in a way because it’s her dad, but her counselor told her she has no reason to feel guilty.
I made it clear to my daughter that I want to provide her a safe home that she can thrive in. Also that if we separate or divorce it’s not because she’s said this because that is not something that needs to be on her. But that allowing her a life to be a teen doing regular teen stuff is what I want her to have. She started crying a bit, I think because she probably hasn’t felt normal at all for what all has been happening.

He wouldn’t see it coming.

I have a hard time knowing that my husband has an illness, and that contributes to his behavior, but at the same time, he doesn’t not seem to care how it effects me. He tells me this again and again. He just wants me to accept anything.

At this point, only he is benefiting from staying together. He has most everything he wants and he says he has no complaints about the relationship.

I am trying to digest all this.

Im2lucky · Jan 28, 2022, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

I still have compassion for my husband—I assume. However I have lost patience with his ultra rude behavior and selfishness. I am not feeling compassion, I am feeling annoyed by him.
I don’t gaf almost. I’m growing cold, grown cold. I don’t want to give more than the middle, I only want to compromise fairly.
I’m not able to size up the state of the relationship. I think it could be quickly better, which I think means its not that bad, is fixable. But am I wrong? his behavior can be so annoying (that’s how I think of it NOW). I’m so resentful and sooo annoyed and frustrated by him!
Does it get better?
It’s like don’t criticize him. Don’t be a b. Don’t be crazy (calls ME crazy frequently when I’m not). He acts up acts out freaks out is so LOUD. He might never talk to you either!
He makes strides too and fixes some problems, so that’s encouraging.
He communicates poorly with others. Very awkward. Offensive paranoid overbearing. he can be charming, but he acts so obnoxiously sometimes, and it’s not excusable obnoxiousness sometimes. I feel like I’m being so mean and I would feel bad if he read this and got upset.
He has bipolar and takes meds and is bouncing back from near break. It’s been a few years or so, but it takes a lot of time for him heal.
I work to protect all our lives health and sanity. But sometimes I realize it’s dysfunctional. But then it okay again the next minute.
It doesn’t make any sense and it’s exhausting!!
It’s like I’m rejecting because I need boundaries. Or rejecting if I want him to have limits. Or unsupportive if I don’t trust his choices. And stupid when I trust his choices! At least sometimes.

Your amazing in the way you described this If I did not know better I would think your describing me as I also have Bipolar.I spend all my time working at undoing damage caused when in mania episodes.i always remind myself my wife and family suffer this illness along with me. I get frustrated because an episode can cause great damage in a short time that people become resentful. I set up calendars that show when I'm outside my norm. My family is fully educated when not to take things to heart. I work extra hard trying to undo any damage I caused when outside these episodes. My therapist is trained in both Bipolar and marriage therapy. She has really made a big impact in explaining to others what I experience. It helps heal and put things in the past. I feel so sorry for my wife that she must withstand these behaviors.

Have Hope · 07:44 AM

Wow - your daughter tells you that you should divorce him, that he is abusive and that she cannot take anymore. Your daughter has told you point blank what is happening and how it's effecting her. If it were me, I would listen to my daughter, and make an exit plan ASAP.

You can love someone, but have limits around how they treat you.

This guy is a mess, he needs a lot of help and in my opinion, you don't need to drag yourself and your daughter through that anymore.

I agree with the poster who had said you've lost yourself.... I mean that in the kindest and most compassionate way, but maybe it's time to think of your own needs, your daughter's needs and take far better care of yourself - you deserve to be treated with respect and loving kindness at all times. And this relationship does not provide that for you.

Cardooney · Jan 28, 2022, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Have Hope

Wow - your daughter tells you that you should divorce him, that he is abusive and that she cannot take anymore. Your daughter has told you point blank what is happening and how it's effecting her. If it were me, I would listen to my daughter, and make an exit plan ASAP.

You can love someone, but have limits around how they treat you.

This guy is a mess, he needs a lot of help and in my opinion, you don't need to drag yourself and your daughter through that anymore.

I agree with the poster who had said you've lost yourself.... I mean that in the kindest and most compassionate way, but maybe it's time to think of your own needs, your daughter's needs and take far better care of yourself - you deserve to be treated with respect and loving kindness at all times. And this relationship does not provide that for you.

Yes her telling me this is huge and I think I have an obligation to change the living situation ASAP. My mind is very busy trying to think of the best way, and busy reforming my thinking.

I’m remembering how before we had our daughter, I was fed up with our life and told him I was going a different direction, and he could continue going the way things were, or follow me in a healthy direction. He chose to follow me, and things became more functional and enjoyable. Here I am at another crossroad.

I have lost myself, or probably more accurately I never had myself in the first place. There’s the core me that remains unchanged from outside influences, but the relationship me has never been healthy.

He says he is happy. He says he is doing great and he told me his iop exit counselor says he is doing great. He thinks he can change his bad memories that he thinks about every day into better memories. He’s adding his true self and the abusers true self into the memories to change them. he’s embracing that he has no bad parts and finding compassion for the abuser who also would have no bad parts based on this treatment view. I guess he is trying to jump to radical acceptance before he’s done trauma counseling?

How does he think he is happy? I guess because he’s not currently fitting inpatient criteria and he landed a job and he feels excited about having “no bad parts” and a true self that is healthy. To me he seems triggered and is obviously living in the past right now. I don’t think he is grounded at all based on seeing him smoke constantly looking very doped from that, and his acquiring more and more materials for his projects (piling them up in the garage), and gobbling up oodles of carbs, saying bizarre stuff, and is irritable whenever he doesn’t like what you say or do.

I do feel responsible for him since he doesn’t seem well enough to take care of himself and he is lacking awareness. Yes I need to take good care of myself too, and my child, which means at minimum not letting him dictate how the house is run if he’s in it. I have to figure out how to make things better. I guess if I tell him I want to separate, he would probably go inpatient immediately (or worse), and I really can’t see him starting a job in a few days with that on his mind. So I guess for the big picture, I should not talk to him about separating until things are more stable. Maybe things won’t get more stable though.
I hate this. This is awful, so sad, so scary, so familiar, so unfamiliar:-(((

Rive. · Jan 28, 2022, 11:38 AM

Progress? I don't see his apology as progress at all. Progress means changed behaviour. He shows no inclination of doing so whatsoever.

I am sorry but mental illness does not mean one gets a free pass. There is accountability which, again, he is not taking.

I don't understand why you are still prioritising him and/or making excuses (i.e. his mental illness, his apology, his 'progress') when your daughter is telling you explicitly how she is feeling about this dynamic. She is already suffering. All that this 'teaching' her is that being with an abusive partner is okay. It is not!

Etcetera1 · Jan 28, 2022, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

And I worry because he isn’t doing anything yet about his addiction, and he hasn’t even started the new job. He hasn’t started trauma therapy or addiction counseling.

Damn! Pardon me, but I wasn't aware of this. I thought he already started working on all that, including the new job. That completely changes my evaluation of the situation. I seriously suggest that you steel yourself and drop the hope that this could be going in a good direction soon and fast enough. It will not. Unfortunately. It's a sad truth.

Quote:

So things will probably get harder from here. I wouldn’t say he was or is trying to use his tools to understand me. He was using tools to be superior over me, etc which is why I was not receptive whatsoever. Or best case scenario, he thought I was feeling something he thinks I shouldn’t have been and thought it was his duty to change that.

Yeah, it doesn't really get better than that "best case" scenario.

Quote:

He told me he was going to call his brother because he wanted to share his progress and wanted to let his brother know that he “found a way to protect them.”
I cautioned him a bit saying maybe he’s triggered and to maybe slow down a bit and be careful, and also pointed out how he said he was protecting him and his brother (part of his trauma thinking) and that it’s not his job to protect his brother. (His brother is fine and the trauma happened over 30 years ago).
He said “I don’t value you” and made a twiddly gesture with his fingers, like maybe to mimic someone talking? I said I know you don’t value me, and remade the twiddly gesture.

He said weird stuff to our kid today, she told me. Made no sense what he was saying to her. Giving her weird advice and projecting weird thoughts onto others, really off base. When she and I went to a concert the other night, he kept giving weird cautions about people at concerts and what people are like at concerts. Of course nothing what he said turned out to be true whatsoever.

All this sounds like his bipolar medications are not working. He needs to go back to the psychiatrist ASAP to get his medications set up properly. His mood is absolutely not stabilised properly.

Quote:

I just now saw the checking account is overdrawn, and we don’t have much in savings. I came out to the computer to get a better look because I was very surprised it was overdrawn. I said our account is overdrawn! And he was like oh big deal, that’s how money works, money comes and money goes. I was like oh really? Im working hard for it thank you very much. And he asked to me repeat that a few times like he couldn’t hear me. And he said that I’ve only been working for four years. I said it’s not about that it’s that we have to manage our money and watch how much is in the account. He’s like well good thing you looked all you have to do is transfer money from savings. (I didn’t want to touch savings and there is no reason we should have had to. I just cashed out 65 vacation hours I didn’t use last year so we even had extra. I swear I spent like $190 of that on extras, and half of that was for a medical device I need, the other half the concert). He says don’t let it ruin your night, don’t catastrophize money. I said I’m not, I’m just speaking about money realistically. He says he was free to spend money basically because he starts working on Monday. I said yeah you haven’t started yet.

I’m so tired of sharing a bank account with him.

He again sounds like his mood is going too high. Get that medication fixed up.

Can you setup your own bank account and transfer all your money into it?

I would do this ASAP.

Quote:

I see him having a great time doing his own thing it seems, and mostly all or all of our interactions are poor.

Well, mania can feel great to the person with bipolar. But he needs to get it under control.

Quote:

Our child wants me to divorce him. She told me that a few days ago, and she reiterated it tonight. She said he is emotionally and verbally abusive to me. And that she feels like downstairs is a minefield around him. :-( she said she feels like she can’t tolerate these conditions any longer. She feels guilty about it in a way because it’s her dad, but her counselor told her she has no reason to feel guilty.
I made it clear to my daughter that I want to provide her a safe home that she can thrive in. Also that if we separate or divorce it’s not because she’s said this because that is not something that needs to be on her. But that allowing her a life to be a teen doing regular teen stuff is what I want her to have. She started crying a bit, I think because she probably hasn’t felt normal at all for what all has been happening.

Can someone help counsel you for the next steps for changing this situation? Sounds like it is very hard to deal with all this alone, a very big burden.

Quote:

He wouldn’t see it coming.

I have a hard time knowing that my husband has an illness, and that contributes to his behavior, but at the same time, he doesn’t not seem to care how it effects me. He tells me this again and again. He just wants me to accept anything.

At this point, only he is benefiting from staying together. He has most everything he wants and he says he has no complaints about the relationship.

I am trying to digest all this.

That's a red flag, I agree with the posts that said you lost yourself in this relationship.

I wish you much luck with getting out of this terrible situation.

Have Hope · Jan 29, 2022, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardooney

Yes her telling me this is huge and I think I have an obligation to change the living situation ASAP. My mind is very busy trying to think of the best way, and busy reforming my thinking.

I’m remembering how before we had our daughter, I was fed up with our life and told him I was going a different direction, and he could continue going the way things were, or follow me in a healthy direction. He chose to follow me, and things became more functional and enjoyable. Here I am at another crossroad.

I have lost myself, or probably more accurately I never had myself in the first place. There’s the core me that remains unchanged from outside influences, but the relationship me has never been healthy.

He says he is happy. He says he is doing great and he told me his iop exit counselor says he is doing great. He thinks he can change his bad memories that he thinks about every day into better memories. He’s adding his true self and the abusers true self into the memories to change them. he’s embracing that he has no bad parts and finding compassion for the abuser who also would have no bad parts based on this treatment view. I guess he is trying to jump to radical acceptance before he’s done trauma counseling?

How does he think he is happy? I guess because he’s not currently fitting inpatient criteria and he landed a job and he feels excited about having “no bad parts” and a true self that is healthy. To me he seems triggered and is obviously living in the past right now. I don’t think he is grounded at all based on seeing him smoke constantly looking very doped from that, and his acquiring more and more materials for his projects (piling them up in the garage), and gobbling up oodles of carbs, saying bizarre stuff, and is irritable whenever he doesn’t like what you say or do.

I do feel responsible for him since he doesn’t seem well enough to take care of himself and he is lacking awareness. Yes I need to take good care of myself too, and my child, which means at minimum not letting him dictate how the house is run if he’s in it. I have to figure out how to make things better. I guess if I tell him I want to separate, he would probably go inpatient immediately (or worse), and I really can’t see him starting a job in a few days with that on his mind. So I guess for the big picture, I should not talk to him about separating until things are more stable. Maybe things won’t get more stable though.
I hate this. This is awful, so sad, so scary, so familiar, so unfamiliar:-(((

I read this post as being mainly about him. You've made your entire world and life revolve around him., He is running your life. You're not running your own life - it's all about him, his needs, his behaviors, his problems. Where are you in all of this?

And, you are not responsible for his life - he is. It is not your job to make sure he is alive and well - he is an adult, and that's HIS responsibility.

I made my ex fiance homeless - I had to kick him out of the home because of the way he was abusing and mistreating me, on top of his bad alcoholism. He threatened suicide all the time - now, if I had made myself responsible for him, he would have ruined my life. And I wasn't going to allow that.

This guy of yours? He is ruining you and your daughter. You cannot worry about him anymore - you have to save yourselves.

You seem completely wrapped up in all his problems that there is no YOU anymore. Your own needs, opinions, feelings and person are just gone - you have neglected yourself to such a degree that you don't talk about how this is effecting you anymore because it's all about him.

Please leave him. Your daughter is basically pleading with you. To stay with him at this point it totally non sensical.

Cardooney · Jan 29, 2022, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Im2lucky

Your amazing in the way you described this If I did not know better I would think your describing me as I also have Bipolar.I spend all my time working at undoing damage caused when in mania episodes.i always remind myself my wife and family suffer this illness along with me. I get frustrated because an episode can cause great damage in a short time that people become resentful. I set up calendars that show when I'm outside my norm. My family is fully educated when not to take things to heart. I work extra hard trying to undo any damage I caused when outside these episodes. My therapist is trained in both Bipolar and marriage therapy. She has really made a big impact in explaining to others what I experience. It helps heal and put things in the past. I feel so sorry for my wife that she must withstand these behaviors.

It’s difficult all around. I understand that to some degree the symptoms are not controllable, otherwise why would damage be done AND so much effort given to fix it.

I feel like I’m almost an expert at living this way since my dad was also bipolar, and now my husband. Although lately they’re saying he doesn’t have bipolar but rather cptsd and depression.

You work hard to fix things, and I’m sure that helps a great deal!

Cardooney · Jan 29, 2022, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rive.

Progress? I don't see his apology as progress at all. Progress means changed behaviour. He shows no inclination of doing so whatsoever.

I am sorry but mental illness does not mean one gets a free pass. There is accountability which, again, he is not taking.

I don't understand why you are still prioritising him and/or making excuses (i.e. his mental illness, his apology, his 'progress') when your daughter is telling you explicitly how she is feeling about this dynamic. She is already suffering. All that this 'teaching' her is that being with an abusive partner is okay. It is not!

Progress meaning he apologized, and I took the opportunity to say my opinion needs to matter to him. But yeah, i realize now that is not progress, that is nothing. He doesn’t take accountability, true. He usually thinks other people have a problem, not him.

My daughter is suffering. She knows it’s not okay to be with someone abusive, rather it’s been trying to live with someone with a serious mental illness. She is the smart one knowing that it’s no excuse to mistreat someone and she wants away from it.

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