Losing compassion

Thanks for sharing. A relative of mine is somewhat like this. It sucks

''He's never apologized''.... exactly!

''He'd rather bully and hide to control how I perceive him'' - exactly with this person also

One thing you shared - he has said ''thanks for loving me and supporting me'' when he is in a bad spot makes me think of something that a relative said once only..... such ''warmth'' in words (or in other ways) was very rare.

Hey @Cardooney

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Originally Posted by Cardooney He is not in therapy. He just checks in with a psych to continue pills once every six months? Year? It’s not often. He has said in the past that he doesn’t need it and that only I do (he knows that’s a lie), or he’s said he doesn’t have the capacity for it.

I dont mean to seem preachy but you MUST insist he do therapy. I dont have legit stats but Im willing to say that 85-90% of people being treated with meds for mental health issues will not be able to maintain long term stability without therapy; and their ability to make real lasting changes-especially when they project onto their partner is drastically altered. Classic projection and blame- Its you not me behavior.

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He is easily triggered and often edgy. He distracts himself constantly. It must be uncomfortable. We had a couples session scheduled for today (first one) but he bowed out.

What was his excuse and are you ok with this?

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He cleaned up his mess instead. 1700 lbs of junk to the dump. So I guess he did his own therapy that way. I definitely will continue to be vexed. I’ve been telling him his behavior is annoying almost every day lately. I’m nice about it, if that makes sense. I just now said he is a brat. He didn’t disagree. He tries to dominate and control in ridiculous ways. It used to terrify me. Then I tried to stay strong and not play his game, just tell him what’s what and walk away. Still scary but helped. Lately, he just annoys me or his behavior infuriates me because his choices effect me, and he doesn’t seem to care.

Again, not to be too blunt but you are the one who needs to change. What I mean is set boundaries with consequences and keep them. He bows out of couples counseling and cleans? Whats the consequence? I hear you saying all these things that are about you and how he makes you feel but it doesnt sound like he has any motivation to change. Why should he?

I come from a place of "we teach other people how to treat us" I dont mean that victims of abuse are at fault. I dont mean that mean people arent the problem. But tolerating behaviors that are selfish, unloving, mean, unproductive etc is teaching that mean person to continue acting that way. Tell me one time or person that has had a drastic shift in thinking without pain or consequence?

I agree with @sarahsweets. My husband used to abuse and mistreat me, so I made him move out, we separated and I ALMOST divorced him. I had a lawyer, I was ready to complete the financial paperwork for a divorce, and he started individual therapy. We got back together eventually, he is still in therapy and we have couples therapy periodically. It's been 7 months since we've been back together and he's a completely changed man. Not saying this is common or would happen because it's not typical.

My point is, I agree with sarah that there has to be consequences and boundaries drawn. He will continue to mistreat you as long as you stay and as long as it is tolerated. It doesn't do any good simply to say that annoys me or that aggravates me. Your husband needs to be able to own up to his treatment of you, he needs to take 100% ownership and he won't unless he is confronted with it in treatment.

Group therapy is a good start, but he likely needs individual treatment, especially if he is borderline and needs lithium.

What also concerns me is when you say his controlling and domineering behaviors used to terrify you. In a healthy relationship, one should never feel scared of their spouse or partner. It's very concerning when you say it's still scary for you. It seems you've adapted to his maladaptive, unhealthy and abusive behavior and now tolerate it with no lines drawn.

Compassion is my mother's favourite word. It's used at every opportunity to try and grind me down over the issue with my sister-in-law (well documented in another thread).

If I did relent in a situation where I'm the victim, it would be replaced with another issue, then another....

Strange how it can take a long time (I'm now in my mid-60s) to realise that your mother's behaviour is self-serving manipulation. Had I not asked last week, I still wouldn't know what she's doing for Christmas. Yet she can see no wrong in withholding information, drip feeding content into conversations to add drama.

Compassion is very over-rated when used as a tool for manipulation. Where it's genuinely given and received is a totally different "ball game".

Agreed. You can have all the compassion in the world and still protect yourself.

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Originally Posted by poshgirl Compassion is my mother's favourite word. It's used at every opportunity to try and grind me down over the issue with my sister-in-law (well documented in another thread). If I did relent in a situation where I'm the victim, it would be replaced with another issue, then another.... Strange how it can take a long time (I'm now in my mid-60s) to realise that your mother's behaviour is self-serving manipulation. Had I not asked last week, I still wouldn't know what she's doing for Christmas. Yet she can see no wrong in withholding information, drip feeding content into conversations to add drama. Compassion is very over-rated when used as a tool for manipulation. Where it's genuinely given and received is a totally different "ball game".

One can have compassion WITHIN THE LIMITS OF ONES OWN BOUNDARIES.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. He originally didn’t do marriage counseling that day because he completely forgot what was all scheduled for that day, and he said he was too worked up to do it.

As it turned out, he went inpatient right after this for a week. He’s back home now, different meds, tightened up diagnosis, has one individual therapy session done, and we did one marriage counseling session same day he got home, and he starts intensive outpatient treatment soon. He will do addiction treatment as well.

He says a light has come on for him I think because of dbt stuff he learned inpatient, and I guess his overall experience inpatient, although it’s not his first time there.

I have asked him a few things already that I’d like him to do for him and us, and he’s done them so far. He seems to be listening to my input and using his new found skills. I don’t think it will stick without iOp and continued counseling.

I can’t stick up for the past—other than I did my best in the relationship. He hasn’t done his best for sure, but says he wants to going forward.

Im trying to process everything.

Best thing you can do is observe through a logical lense & just see where it goes. I had 2 years of intense DBT therapy before the skill set actually became a natural part of my life. It takes time but for me it was the best therapy (with the best psychologist) I ever had. Definitely valuable skills to learn & become the way to function

Yes this is what I’m thinking—it will take a lot of time to become natural and a lot of discipline and effort in the meantime.

He said I’ll have to learn to trust him, or relearn, which didn’t sound right to me. I am trusting of my family to a fault (I now fully realize). I need to learn to trust myself. He would be more honest saying he has to make permanent different choices and have a new code of conduct so he can be trustworthy and reliable not just when he feels like it but always. even when he isn’t outright lying, he is often lying to himself.

I said during counseling that he has done a lot of damage that will take time to repair me that I pretty much ignored him for the last year and that he stop being mean first step. He wasn’t able to own being mean, or seemed shocked by it.

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Originally Posted by Cardooney Yes this is what I’m thinking—it will take a lot of time to become natural and a lot of discipline and effort in the meantime. He said I’ll have to learn to trust him, or relearn, which didn’t sound right to me. I am trusting of my family to a fault (I now fully realize). I need to learn to trust myself. He would be more honest saying he has to make permanent different choices and have a new code of conduct so he can be trustworthy and reliable not just when he feels like it but always. even when he isn’t outright lying, he is often lying to himself. I said during counseling that he has done a lot of damage that will take time to repair me that I pretty much ignored him for the last year and that he stop being mean first step. He wasn’t able to own being mean, or seemed shocked by it.

Self-awareness (MINDFULNESS in DBT) is probably the hardest section of the 4. My psychologist put it in between every section because it is the skill most needed even for the other sections.

I left my husband 14 years ago. Told him when I left that I would KNOW when or if he changed. His issues were the inability to communicate & was financially irresponsible. He couldn't grasp how I could do that from 2100 miles away. Duh!!!! He would start communicating. Anyway I am divorced now & the DBT really helped me sort through ALL the dysfunction I lived with all my life & learn skills to live a functional life now (I have never been more happy)

I never trust anyone until they have proved they can be trusted..but only family I have is my daughter who lives across the country..but I have found trustworthy friends. I have found that if something doesn't sound right, it most likely isn't & that red flag tells me....don't trust. Life is a learning process that really never ends which is really what makes it interesting (at least for me)

He went inpatient again and is back home again. Yesterday was very nice, but today not so much. Pretty much back as it was today. I know it wouldn’t be easy but I hate it. I can’t even explain what it’s like. I just have a knot in my stomach and I feel isolated. Best case scenario is maybe it’s a bumpy ride just like it has been and it very slowly gets better.
He gave me his debit card (his offer without me thinking of it or wanting it) Since I guess he thinks he will overspend and I’ll tell him he is spending money we needs to keep in savings. Feels awkward. I said what about when you want weed. He said he will ask me for the card.
I see him smoking a lot. I asked him how long until he runs out. He said a friend gave it to him as a trade. I said that’s stressful. I guess I contributed to the tension with that. Its from my guts because of how he would trade away our stuff for weed if he isn’t spending cash because budget (I didn’t bring this up but my stress comment was probably wrong to say).

A certain part of him acts like this, and it gives me a lot of anxiety. If I don’t trust him or what he is doing he gets irritable (has a light plugged into the extension cord outside in the carport and the roof is leaking water everywhere in there). I feel like it’s unsafe, and he feels like today was the day to build this light and leave it on and plugged in outside where no one sees it and it’s getting wet? Is the problem he knows a leaky roof is undesirable and when I say we should move objects out of the water so they don’t get ruined, he thinks we should add a plugged in light to the situation instead?
He is seeing a cool light.
I am seeing hazards.
How are we on such a different page?
I asked him if he was going to leave this new light outside. I guess it’s his lamp to look at and trip out on while smoking weed. He suggested adding a piece of dry ice to it.
He wants to sell art to people in China because there is more people there so more customers.
I am trying to be so supportive but I don’t know what to make of all this.
He is trying so much to find something to do, and smoking a lot and distracting himself. He bought a board to write on to check in and focus on his structured day and healing, and asked me to encourage him to use it if he didn’t use it for a couple days. Well he installed it yesterday but hadn’t used it today. I asked him if he was going to use it today, and he got uptight about it. Then he suddenly said fine he could write a few things, but it seemed like a struggle of will and there was tension there. He was being snappy today, and then my kid was being temperamental, and I said ah she’s got a temper like her pops. He said that wasn’t constructive (sure) and I said it wasn’t constructive to be having a temper towards someone. I’m just tired of walking on eggshells.
I feel like I do everything wrong. I have feelings about things, and then i am never sure if or when I should express them. When I do express them, If I’m met with a wall, I feel like I messed up. Otherwise I don’t express, I just move on, ignore, and that feels wrong too.
I just can’t help but feel like my husband is rude to me. But then again, I made my comments today (temper like her dad, when will you need more weed, that’s stressful, maybe other stuff). He said there is a problem because I don’t like what he watches on tv (I hadn’t said I didn’t like it, I just said the interviewee avoided answering the question).
I just want to keep the smallest cushion so we stay afloat until things get better financially, and he starts getting creative about how to feed his needs, and that becomes his focus. To satiate. He is always whining about blame and I don’t understand him!!!

Sounds like the situation is getting harder to manage. Would it be possible for you to separate from him for a bit? Sounds like you need some space from him and to reevaluate the relationship.

It is hard to manage. I need something yes. I don’t know how we would separate exactly because we don’t have money to support two households until things improve (hopefully they will)
I don’t want to abandon him but it’s so hard to tolerate his behavior that he has such difficultly controlling, I just want to get along, but I feel like the only way to do that is to pretend. Hopefully tomorrow will be better

You say "abandon" as though you feel responsible for him. Do you feel responsible for him? As though it's your duty to take care of him and hang in there no matter what?

Abandon him while he is so vulnerable is what I mean. Not saying I would be responsible for anything that he does, but I think I am trying to minimize damage (for my kids sake, and because I care for him and he is having difficulty caring for himself until and probably while he gets treatment).

Yesterday he seemed like a different person than the day before. we’ll see what today brings. I need to be extremely careful what I introduce into the mix because he is not very stable right now.

I’m shaky today being around him. He asked me how I felt yesterday (he was doing his own daily check in and I guess wanted to involve me, having me check in emotionally). I was honest and said I was feeling some sadness. He said we should explore that after he buys weed and smokes. So when he is ready he asks me why I’m sad. I sensed he wasn’t asking for reasons of comfort or care, more like he was challenging me about what in the world I should feel sad about. I opened up anyway and told him how I was feeling. I even sad sadness might not be the word, but that I was feeling a lack of other feelings and was feeling depleted and was needing to regenerate (I just came out of the hospital, they thought I might have life threatening clot but didn’t). He again challenged me with what am I doing about my feelings? I gave a list of things I had been doing that day, and said my plan was just to take it easy. He again challenged me, asking “but what are my efforts?” I repeated my efforts, and said I am fine, that I think I’m feeling normally as someone would considering what I’d just been through, and that it should resolve with time. I did sense he was poking at me for no reason instead of just accepting me, or shoot, even saying something nice. I said I think I’m doing alright considering, ffs. I didn’t say ffs to offend him, but more like thinking back over everything I had endured in the hospital because it was tough. He stomped off while sarcastically thanking me for the great talk. I guess he thought he was trying to help me and I wasn’t receptive? He said I need to get a counselor, and that my message to him was how the f could he not understand that I feel sad (which upset him?).
I got quite flustered since I was already feeling depleted, and pointed out how he asked me how I felt, I opened up, and all that came of it was I felt worse engaging him. It was my way to say thanks but no thanks, I guess. He then starts sending me articles about how other people are not responsible for one’s feelings. I guess that’s a way to make himself look good? I asked him why he is sending me these articles, and he said it’s self explanatory, and that I’m a smart person who should be able to figure it out. I told him I hadn’t made him responsible for my feelings, and that when talking about my feelings I hadn’t mentioned him at all. He said he wanted to educate me about my behavior so that I can be in the same page as him. I said I really didn’t need him to teach me anything, and he told me my ego stinks.
I left for a few hours to be away from him. When I got back he asked where I went and I said I took a drive since things weren’t going in a healthy way. He said he hopes I got what I needed from my drive and then walked away to do his own thing.
There were other similar happenings the evening before with him telling me I should have done this, that, and the other (about our kids homework), and degrading my efforts FOR NO REASON. I kept trying to redirect it or defend myself or explain, but he just continued to criticize me. He said my kid and I are doing nothing to help the situation (although we had literally just been addressing the situation). I asked him to clarify his comment-was he saying our efforts are zero? And he said yes she and I are doing nothing. I said to him that actually he is the one doing nothing except criticizing me. He didn’t like that and wanted to be away from me (hid in the back yard).
Today, he tries to act like nothing happened. I was minimally responding to his small talk this morning because I am nervous to engage him, and he was asking about whether my health issue has resolved or returned. I said I’m good. I was anxious. He sneezed and I said bless you, but I guess it wasn’t loud enough, so he said “oh wow! You can’t even manage a bless you!” I said I actually did say bless you, and he said that if so, I hadn’t said it loud enough for anyone to have heard it. I said that these interactions aren’t like self-healing material, rather they take effort to heal. He said he has no idea what I’m talking about, and he left.
Now he’s back with a book from the library. Maybe he will want to educate me, but hopefully he focuses on soothing himself because i don’t know that engaging with him will bring anything positive.
He won’t apologize for criticizing me unnecessarily, stomping off, being rude,and “shoulding” me (he tells me this is a big no-no) because of course it’s me who did something wrong (what though??). I think he is in a childish state right now. I have unconditional love for him it seems. I don’t want to encourage his selfish behavior (I did tell him I thought he was being selfish yesterday).
What does he get out of telling me again an again that I make no effort, and am not doing what I should? What does he think “helping myself and taking responsibility for my feelings looks like for me?
I suspect he is projecting, and said yesterday that I think he is projecting onto me.
Also- I think this could have been his way of “getting back at me” because I had asked him the day before about whether he will be able to do his addiction counseling (part of his mental health plan) now that he just took a new job (when I thought he was holding off working for awhile since he was just inpatient twice in the last month). Since I was in the hospital he was smoking even more due to his worry and smoking very heavily once I was home.

He seems to be busying himself right now doing things he has put on his list to keep him in the safe zone. That’s good.
However, it’s not “safe” for me to engage with him. Just now, the dog let me know it needed to go outside, so I went to the back door to let him out and noticed the door was ajar, which is unusual. I then looked out the nearby kitchen window and saw husband walking back towards the house so I figured that he would let the dog back in with him, and I returned to the couch.
Husband comes in, looks into the front room at me on the couch and scoffs, rolls his eyes. I asked what, which he didn’t respond to. I didn’t know what it meant, but moved on.
Ten minutes later husband says “oh boy you really moved away from the window quickly when you saw me” in his weighted tone.
I responded that i let the dog out and saw the door was open and so I looked out the window and saw him there and that was that. And I asked what’s his point though? No response.
I guess he is trying to keep taking my temperature to see how I will respond to him? He wants me back to catering to his thoughts and feelings? He wanted me to wave at him? Acknowledge the yard work he apparently spur of the moment decided to do with a thumbs up? I don’t know??
He just left again to pick up more free stuff on Craigslist for his projects, which gives me a chance to relax without thinking about what he will do next and what I need to be careful about. Although here I am thinking about it.
These small weird interactions feel so weighty.
I really need some peace while I’m healing.
I was thinking about what if he gets a place with a friend. He would be mind blown at that suggestion and I’m surprised I thought of it and felt relaxed. :-( I need a support group for people also dealing with a loved one who is so volatile, and fragile.
I would love to go in person since it’s not good doing online at home. I guess I could sit in my car somewhere with WiFi.

This resonates:
“ it’s a mental health condition with complex symptoms that include a low ability to empathize, diminished self-reflection and insight, and the need for praise and admiration.

People living with the condition often aren’t aware of it. This may make it difficult for them to change those attitudes and behaviors.”

Men do not manage their emotions the way you as a woman do. (Most guys, anyway, not overgeneralising).

They will want to fix the emotions, which will feel very invalidating to your feelings if they try to do it to your feelings too. They don't do comfort or care, but apply cold logic and toughness to their emotions most of the time.

The only exception from this rule seems to be when they do get into an emotional mood. Either spontaneously feeling emotional or when they are receptive to a positive emotional interaction with someone else.

Extending that to relationships, if there are enough positive interactions in the relationship, it will be more possible for men to apply the basic relationship skills that they may have (or if they don't have even those skills, they can learn it then). To be able to give basic emotional support the partner without invalidating her. Don't expect refined emotional support even then though.

The bolded sounds like he read it as a strong criticism and attack on his weak skills for feelings/relationships (like with most men).

Men also physiologically lack a lot of self-soothing skills for feelings that most women have. They will prefer to either openly retaliate if they feel disrespected or will shut down emotions and withdraw from the person for a while. While most women will be able to self-soothe themselves on their own or talk out emotions by talking to their girlfriends.

This is what the current science says about the physiology. Look up John Gottman on this.

You criticising his emotional attitudes will just achieve the same result as when he criticises your way of doing things - he will feel offended and the cycle continues.

It seems like you two still have some feelings for each other but the relationship between you two is in a bad state.

I would say if he has serious issues like addiction, you can't really expect him to also work hard on the relationship. This is much like work/life balance. Hard or nearly impossible in most cases to go work hard at the workplace then work hard at home on the relationship at the same time. Let alone working on mental health issues, addiction....

If you find he drains you too much and you two can't take a rest from it for a while, then yes separation may be the best way forward.

Only you can know, of course. This is just some notes in the hope it helps.

Seems to me that nearly every interaction is a battle, a challenge, uncomfortable and very tense. Loving someone does not have to be unconditional. It can involve boundaries and limits on what’s unacceptable to you. That kind of daily living would make me want to run far away.

Agreed. I personally believe only parents can have unconditional love with their kids, especially the mother.

Love between two adults is never unconditional, as each party has to be able to stand on their own and take care of themselves if need be. With healthy interdependence.

Something like this.

EDIT: I mean all this only if unconditional love means that we always stay present and take care of the other person.

You could still always unconditionally love your partner as an adult, from afar, if you two cannot otherwise remain in a close relationship in real life due to issues. It just would not be love that can materialise much.

Thanks for the notes, it helps. A sticking point is that he is very emotional, always has been, needs a lot of support with his emotions, and has little tolerance for other’s emotions. I am quite stoic with my own emotion, rationalizing emotion frequently, so I guess the contrast allows things to work (barely).
However, I have more self respect than I used to, and so no longer want to tolerate him niggling at me with his projections.

He does have selfish behavior and always has since I’ve known him, and I’ve been careful not to say that to him or about him because he let me know long ago he is sensitive about being selfish. I did tell him he was being selfish because he asked me how I felt and then made it all about him when he didn’t like how I was feeling. I had told him I was okay and that I would feel better soon, I was sure, and I was taking things in stride. Why was that not good enough for him?

He thinks I need help and I’m refusing to get help or help myself?

The more I digest this, a strong answer is he is struggling himself and is projecting it onto me. He was/is triggered from me being in the hospital with what docs had to rule out was potential life-threatening condition. He thinks I’m not okay, because he is struggling and he is not seeing me as unique for him.

I had cried a bit when I returned from the hospital because it was difficult in there, and brought back memories of cancer treatment I had there in the past. And worrying I could die. I told him I was feeling a bit of shame for some fear I had and that some of the fear went back a long way to childhood. He said I need trauma counseling, and I said I wouldn’t pursue additional currently because I’m focused on other things, plus I’ve already done three years of counseling so I feel I have the tools, I was just sharing my thoughts and feelings with him to release the pressure and we moved on.

If he cared, why was he then later that night criticizing my “non-efforts” that he invented I was doing? It’s like he made a box and then shoved stuff into the box whether it fits or not.

I know he cannot work much on the relationship since he has his other issues to work through, but I just want to be treated respectfully. I have very low expectations of our relationship. Lower than ever.

I mentioned in expressing my “sadness” to him that I felt like I had given everything I had and didn’t have more to give, needed to regenerate. Maybe this threatened him.

That makes sense too.

Yeah, men's logic can try and fit the feelings into boxes like that.

Doesn't seem like he is capable of doing that currently. Which is why I suggested taking a break. Not a separation, just not talking to each other much for a while, unless maybe if it it's about something positive (or not even that).

And a separation if it doesn't get better long term, even after he fixed the addiction and got used to the new job and whatnot.

Yes, very possible this sounded threatening to him. With weak relationship skills, most guys will find negative information about the relationship status threatening, and will block it out, ignore it, or get angry, and so on. Instead of processing the communicated feeling in context and not blowing it out of proportion. And in this case, it could sound like you were talking about the relationship being very close to breaking up entirely, even if all you meant is that you need a little rest before you two can do things together again. Maybe best not to mention that you gave all you had and that you're not able to give more now as that is the threatening emotional information, just say that you are physically tired and need relaxation.

Just my suggestions. Good luck either way!

This is how it feels to me and has for a long while. I realized last night that my belief is unconditional love (except hitting me or cheating on me because I was instructed those are deal breakers although my dad did both to my mom).

Ive always found a way to feel compassion for him and understand the way he acts out, but I’m burned out.

I don’t want him turning his behavior towards me anymore. I used to care about how he treated others, but I stopped caring about that. I used to care about how others viewed him, and I stopped caring about that a few years ago.

I have boundaries, but still remain open hearted. He is struggling to be happy with living, and so I feel squished between a rock and a hard place when he acts out towards me. Because .. I want him to feel loved I guess? I’m so accustomed to putting his needs ahead of mine. I have even put his wants ahead of my needs.

My dad was a lot like him, and it was the way I was raised to respond.

Ive always believed this can become a healthy relationship…but am I naive?