[MASIMO]

My T and I were discussing my history of emotional intimacy with men, and lack of intimacy with my current husband. I told him I have only had one long term intimate relationship and that is with my husband. I have been seeing my therapist for 5 years.

He replied that this might sound strange to me but its not meant to. That the relationship we have is an intimate relationship. He said, "we dont have sex, we cant, bad idea, would be against all ethics and morals but it's still an intimate relationship."
My romantic feelings toward him continue, but have matured. I know we can never be together, and the acceptance of that has lessened the intensity of the feelings. But hearing him say this
somehow sounds to me like he thinks about being with me. And perhaps if things were different, we he wouldn't mind being with me. I'm trying to get this out of my head. To not twist it to fit my fantasies, and to appreciate his honesty. I know a lot about him as he self discloses a lot, he knows everything about me. There is nothing I cant tell him.

Not sure what my point is here, I guess that I was just surprised to hear him say this.
Even though it's a little confusing, It still feels like we are closer now.

[rainbow8]

I'm glad that your romantic feelings toward your T have matured. I think he's using "intimate" in a different way from the way you're interpreting it. I could be wrong, but intimate can also mean, just "close". I feel like I have an intimate relationship with my T because I share so much with her. She doesn't disclose as much, I don't think, as your T does, but still, we have a deep connection that I would call "intimate". It doesn't involve sex, but even when sexual feelings on my side have been there, that's not what I mean by "intimate". Therapy is different from any other relationship, even with a life partner. I don't think it's as one-sided as people believe. A good T has a special, intimate bond with long-term clients. It's what makes therapy unique.

[MASIMO]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I'm glad that your romantic feelings toward your T have matured. I think he's using "intimate" in a different way from the way you're interpreting it. I could be wrong, but intimate can also mean, just "close". I feel like I have an intimate relationship with my T because I share so much with her. She doesn't disclose as much, I don't think, as your T does, but still, we have a deep connection that I would call "intimate". It doesn't involve sex, but even when sexual feelings on my side have been there, that's not what I mean by "intimate". Therapy is different from any other relationship, even with a life partner. I don't think it's as one-sided as people believe. A good T has a special, intimate bond with long-term clients. It's what makes therapy unique.

I'm not interpreting that he is saying anything more than a close relationship. Rationally, I know that's what he means. But it hard for me to emotionally hear these words without reacting to them in a irrational way...just my mind at work.
Maybe he felt he needed to explain this by mentioning no sex to be sure I didn't misinterpret his statement....given my feelings for him of which he is aware.

[geez]

Masimo my mind thinks a lot like yours in I would think my T has thought about me 'that way' if she said that to me. Not sure there's an underlying meaning to what he said. However my mind would 'go there'.

My T used that word and told me he was talking about emotional intimacy and not sexual intimacy. We talked about how those are wrapped up together in many people's heads. He also asked me recently if him hugging me was too 'intimate' and I was immediately backing off and trying to clarify that hugging him was not at all sexual for me. Turned out that was not was he was saying or asking. I think psychologists are kind of stupid when it comes to throwing that word around.

[SallyBrown]

I can see how this would make my mind go to the same place as well. Actually, as I was reading, I thought his way of saying it was kind of encouraging to those kinds of thoughts. There's definitely a palpable difference between, "I don't have physical intimacy with you because I have no physical intimacy with clients", and "I don't have physical intimacy with you because it's a bad idea." Even if someone is intending to mean one by saying the other... it feels different.

Like, I generally limit my one-on-one time with male friends, even ones to whom I am not and never will be attracted, because I just don't want the boundaries to get squishy or any mixed messages to be unintentionally sent. But I particularly limit (and often totally avoid) one-on-one time with male friends with whom there may be a spark of chemistry, because it's a bad idea. The principle is the same, but the feelings behind them are slightly different.

I'm glad you've come to a level acceptance about your relationship with T, and hopefully this little perturbation will settle down again soon. Personally, I think he ought to be careful using language like that, since it really can be unsettling. That's just my opinion.

[anilam]

Is it an intimate RS though?
IDK, but to me client-T RS is pretty one sided. Even though I share with my T everything he doesn't. I'm pretty sure most Ts would leave some/many thoughts/feelings to themselves and won't share it with the clients (even the ones that selfdisclose a lot).
So no, I wouldn't call it a real intimate RS (though who am I to say esp if it makes you happy). The T's side is restricted- the sex being only one (minor as far as I'm concerned) restriction.

BTW, re his phrasing- we can't, it's a bad idea- I do agree that it sounds like had he met you under different circumstances he wouldn't be against it (i.e. like he had entertained that idea in his mind at least).

[rainbow8]

I think there is emotional intimacy in the T-relationship, like MKAC's T was trying to point out. It's not the same as sexual intimacy, but it can feel similar. That's some of my problem. I get them confused. When my T and I are close emotionally, it feels intimate. It's hard for me to differentiate between physical and emotionally intimacy; in fact, emotionally intimacy feels physical and sometimes sexual too. I'm getting my thoughts mixed-up here, but what I'm trying to say is that the closeness of the T-relationship certainly is intimate, in my opinion. Someone on PC posted a quote from someone about therapy being the only situation where 2 people spend so much time alone together without it being sexual. Something like that. It's a generalization, but there is truth to the T-setup as being conducive to emotional intimacy and if not for rules and boundaries, physically intimacy too.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by anilam

Is it an intimate RS though?
IDK, but to me client-T RS is pretty one sided. Even though I share with my T everything he doesn't. I'm pretty sure most Ts would leave some/many thoughts/feelings to themselves and won't share it with the clients (even the ones that selfdisclose a lot).
So no, I wouldn't call it a real intimate RS

I don't think a relationship needs to be fully reciprocal to be intimate. For instance, young children share their thoughts, feelings, and emotions with their parents but parents typically don't share in a reciprocal way. But is the relationship emotionally intimate? Absolutely. I think the T relationship is emotionally intimate in a similar way. After working with a client long-term, Ts get to know our thoughts, feelings, histories, dreams, and desires-- and they feel invested in our success, they empathize with our struggles, and they can anticipate our thoughts, feelings, and actions. The caring goes both ways, even if the personal sharing does not. And even if Ts do not share personal details about their marriages, daily struggles, or fears, they do share with us in other ways. We get to know their mannerisms, their quirks, their likes and dislikes; we can tell when they're in a good mood or when they're having an "off" day; we get to know about their guilty pleasure of carrot cake or that they scrunch their nose every time they make an off-the-cuff comment about their own mother. You develop inside jokes. You develop friendly banter. For me, the relationship with my T has never felt at all sexual, but it has definitely felt intimate and "maternal." I would say there is even a (platonic) physical intimacy there in the sense that we hug, she will touch my shoulder consolingly if I'm upset, when I wear something new that she thinks is cute (boots, a dress with a unique fabric, etc) she will instinctively reach out and touch the material, if I wear a new ring she touch my hand to get a better look at it, or if I'm showing her pictures she will lean towards me so that she can see them. There's an intimacy there in that we've established an unspoken rule that casual touch (on the hand, shoulder, etc) is "okay"; we're comfortable with one another and we both know that it doesn't mean anything more than that. However, like the personal sharing, it's non-reciprocal to the extent that she will touch the ring on MY hand, but there isn't the same invitation for me to touch the ring on HER hand. The kind of intimacy that I share with my T is also a part of the therapeautic process in that it allows me to feel more comfortable with her, so that I'm able to open up to her to a greater degree and, in so doing, make more progress in therapy.

T has also said on a few occasions that our relationship is intimate. She knows that I understand how she is using he word, so she has never felt the need to clarify that it is "not a friendship" or "not sexual." She uses the word in the way I describe above, and it feels validating for me that she does use the word intimate since that is how I experience it as well.

[critterlady]

My exT used to say that we had a "professionally intimate" relationship. I always thought that hit the nail on the head. It's different than any other intimate relationship, but I don't think it's any less intimate.

[Lauliza]

MASIMO if my psychiatrist used the wording that your T did, my mind would have gone to exactly the same place. When dealing with this subject matter, T's have to be so careful and use language that is as neutral as possible. Because the fact is that in a T-Client relationship, anything sexual, romantic or even friend like is not a remote possibility. So to phrase it as "we can't, it would be a bad idea" opens the door for that "under different circumstances" line of thinking. Those are not the circumstances, so why even address it? It's not helpful and only encourages romantic feelings on your end, it certainly would for me. I think therapy is intimate, but it is a different kind and very one sided. It is much more intimate for the patient and I think T's forget this sometimes...They have many clients who they sincerely care about. But to the clients, they are IT- the only one. So their feelings for us are not with the same level of intensity, it can't be. If it were, then it would be impossible for them to be objective and effective. I agree that therapists can be kind of dense about how to talk about the issue of intimacy with patients (especially the males). I don't think they always get just how deeply their words resonate with us.

[archipelago]

I can understand why it must be hard to sort out. At a time when I was feeling strong feelings toward my therapist, I thought they were also being entertained by him. He had mentioned his own relationship with his analyst, which was eroticized even though they both didn't act on it, but they discussed it. I had reasons to believe he felt something for me, but in the end I myself realized that I was eroticizing intimacy when what I wanted was real intimacy not an erotic connection of any sort, fantasy or otherwise. When it dawned on me that that intimacy was much more important and meaningful than anything else I thought I wanted, I relaxed and the feelings went away. It was actually distracting me from forming a deeper bond I think. At least that is how it turned out.

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by iota

I can understand why it must be hard to sort out. At a time when I was feeling strong feelings toward my therapist, I thought they were also being entertained by him. He had mentioned his own relationship with his analyst, which was eroticized even though they both didn't act on it, but they discussed it. I had reasons to believe he felt something for me, but in the end I myself realized that I was eroticizing intimacy when what I wanted was real intimacy not an erotic connection of any sort, fantasy or otherwise. When it dawned on me that that intimacy was much more important and meaningful than anything else I thought I wanted, I relaxed and the feelings went away. It was actually distracting me from forming a deeper bond I think. At least that is how it turned out.

Agreed...The romantic feelings/fantasy regarding the therapist does keep you from forming a deeper bond. If you can handle it on your own that's great, but I think working it with your therapist is necessary, though in your particular case maybe not if the T gave off different vibes. It must be hard on the T's end if they think they're having feelings. Giving signals that they may be attracted no matter how subtle isn't conducive to good therapy. It is the T's job to deflate the fantasy by discussing the reality in a sensitive, kind way. But it seems like its so complicated for both client and T since it's not always a natural way to deal with these feelings.

[southpole]

Originally Posted by amee200

Agreed...The romantic feelings/fantasy regarding the therapist does keep you from forming a deeper bond.

I agree too. I have only just realized that my strange "feelings" for my T are not only non-romantic, but emotionally intimate in a unique way that only exists within T. Realizing that has removed a whole bunch of confusion and has also opened my eyes to the possibilities of different kinds of relationships with people. The best thing is that it is helping me in my RL relationships. So to experience that intimacy, for me, without mixing it up with something else, has been really beneficial to my T journey.

[rainbow8]

southpole and amee, I agree too. Since my T stopped letting me hold her hand, I feel MORE emotionally intimate, not less. It's weird!

[MASIMO]

I do get mixed up with his words sometimes. Like back when the strong transference feelings started, I was testing the water so to speak. I emailed him simply, "Do you care about me" Now I think there is a difference between saying I care about you and I care FOR you. He didn't say FOR, but he did say something that led my mind to think that maybe he did have some feelings for me. He replied to my email saying, "Get Real, If it isn't obvious by now, what do I need to say or do?" This kind of send me in a tailspin at the time. I still think about those words. It was the tone in which they were said, even though emails sometimes miscommunicate tone.

[Lauliza]

Southpole and Rainbow, this is so what I am hoping for by telling my pdoc of my crush for him! Part of my problem is that I have severe social anxiety and insecurity with men- all men. I feel most able to connect only when sex is involved. I've basically never had a close platonic relationship with a straight man. I was insecure and shy with my dad and brothers all through childhood, and distant with my husband (but that's a long story). So this could be an enormous learning experience for me that he can only help me with if he is aware of how I feel. My intense fear of rejection is what's held me back all this time. But, I trust my female T's opinion that I should tell him, as she's assured me he will handle it well. This leads me to believe I'm not the first of his patients with this issue, which is somewhat comforting. It is so weird though, such a difficult conversation to have!

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by MASIMO

I do get mixed up with his words sometimes. Like back when the strong transference feelings started, I was testing the water so to speak. I emailed him simply, "Do you care about me" Now I think there is a difference between saying I care about you and I care FOR you. He didn't say FOR, but he did say something that led my mind to think that maybe he did have some feelings for me. He replied to my email saying, "Get Real, If it isn't obvious by now, what do I need to say or do?" This kind of send me in a tailspin at the time. I still think about those words. It was the tone in which they were said, even though emails sometimes miscommunicate tone.

That would send me into a tailspin too. Your T uses language that is way too casual/familiar, not professional. I'm not trying to criticize him but you should know that you're not really misinterpreting anything- his boundaries seem shakey. I don't know if he's inexperienced or just unaware of how this sounds or just doesn't have strict boundaries. Either way, I think he's making the situation harder for you. Especially by communicating through email. Like you said it is very easy to misiniterpret emails, and I don't think it's wise for T's and patients to communicate this way enless it's really necessary. My pdoc is in a mid size practice with very defined policies in place. You can email, but it goes through a server before getting to the providers. You also can't call any providers directly. Calls are answered by receptionists and if he isn't there they take a message. My pdoc has always called me on the phone in response to the few emails I've sent him. This is his own choice as I've been emailed by other providers (for my son) in the practice. It could be a time issue but it could also be to avoid potentially sticky situations. Some people wouldn't like this approach but ultimately I think it is for the patient's benefit as well as the provider's. It makes it harder for T's and patients to cross boundaries - you'd have to really make an effort. Some people have written reviews online describing him as aloof, but he is kind and very friendly with me. He'll shares information if asked, but doesn't offer up details of his personal life. I also know he sincerely cares, I never feel like a number. I think he is just smart and knows that by not keeping strict boundaries in place, he is doing me (and his other patients) a lot more harm than good.

[MASIMO]

Being on this site, I'm amazed at how different one's relationship with their T can be,
emails, no emails, texting, no texting, contact between sessions, no contact, holding,
hugging, strong boundaries, etc. I believe each and every one of us experience something unique. I cant say my T doesn't occasionally say things that I wrestle with in terms of my feelings towards him, but he is human, and I think his feelings towards me eck through at times. We do have a casual relationship at times, it's just the way we are together. He provides incredible support, calls and checks up on me, asks me to call him when I am going through a difficult time, usually responds to my emails, but not always.

When we are doing the hard work of therapy, our interactions are strickly professional but as he says....intimate. No pretenses by either of us.
My life is literally at stake at times and we both know that.
He works hard for me, and I try to work hard for myself, and we respect each other
and our different ways of communicating. All transference aside. I think after being in the profession for 35 years, he just has his own style molded by so many peoples lives.
I'm glad to have met him and to have allowed him into my life.

[Lauliza]

I apologize if I was too judgemental. You are so right that everyone's relationship with their T is unique, and what is right for one is not necessarily right for the other. Your T and my pdoc are obviously very different types of people personality wise and that affects how they interact with their patients. And i'll admit I have boundary issues so that kind of closeness with a male T would be confusing and hard for me to handle. I NEED defined boundaries, where others may not. I'm glad you have a T who has affected you so positively, that is the most important thing after all.

[0w6c379]

Masimo, thanks for an interesting thread. You received some excellent resposes giving you a lot to think about. For me, even if my T said something similar to yours..."we dont have sex, we cant, bad idea, would be against all ethics and morals but it's still an intimate relationship." Even if he considered a real relationship with me, then, to say at another time that we are just strictly T/client, no more, no less is harsh. Maybe it's real but it sounds harsh. To say that you can never be friends, is hard for some to swallow. Personally, I cannot accept the rules of this kind of relationship, at least, not with my guy (he's special to me). I think you nailed it on the head Masimo when you said you could accept never being together in any way but T/client (I'm just paraphrasing here. Acceptance is key here. You will be able to continue in therapy and do good works. I cannot.

[MASIMO]

When my feelings for my t were peaking, I was also in crisis. When i proclaimed love for him, he became quite flustered. I pushed him to say how he felt towards me. He was upset and said he had limitations, that he refused to bring me into his life, that it have awful results. During our next session he was calm, asked me if i still loved him, I replied Yes, he said he would just have to get used to it. I said surely in 30+ years in the profession you have experienced this type of thing before...someone Feeling in love with him. He said no. This really threw me. I have emailed him a few times since then mentioning love, but never with intensity of a few years ago. Now my love for him is so much more evolved, into therapy love. The most powerful love I may have ever experienced......

[0w6c379]

That's nice. I'm glad you have that with your T. I miss my therapist and not sure if doing without him is best for me or not. I think I made him quite uncomfortable and upset too (about loving him and wanting him to spend RL time with me). He is a very kind man and I did not mean to push him like I did. It just came out because I wanted him to like me sooo much. I don't want to force him into anything out of pity. I wanted him to want me. His words of rejection hurt. He may be better off without me in his life.

Sorry, if I've gone on too much about myself.

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by Michelle25

Masimo, thanks for an interesting thread. You received some excellent resposes giving you a lot to think about. For me, even if my T said something similar to yours..."we dont have sex, we cant, bad idea, would be against all ethics and morals but it's still an intimate relationship." Even if he considered a real relationship with me, then, to say at another time that we are just strictly T/client, no more, no less is harsh. Maybe it's real but it sounds harsh. To say that you can never be friends, is hard for some to swallow. Personally, I cannot accept the rules of this kind of relationship, at least, not with my guy (he's special to me). I think you nailed it on the head Masimo when you said you could accept never being together in any way but T/client (I'm just paraphrasing here. Acceptance is key here. You will be able to continue in therapy and do good works. I cannot.

In some ways strict boundaries could be seen as helpful. When I spoke to my T about my crush and feelings for my pdoc, I expressed fear of rejection and she asked "why? a relationship is not an option, so it isn't a rejection. Don't think about what the situation could be under different circumstances. It isn't a different circumstance so that doesn't matter". It looks harsher in writing than it did spoken, but it made sense and was so simple. She understood my feelings and of course was concerned that these feelings could interfere with my progress with him if I couldn't keep them in check. It but it gave me a whole new perspective: that a relationship outside of therapy is never possible- so it is never a personal rejection. Never. We can speculate about what could be if circumstances were different, but in reality, it just isn't possible. So dwelling on what could be, when it never can be, may do more harm than good. There are of course real feelings involved and dismissing them as "transference" is frustrating I think. These are real feelings and I agree it is very important to believe T sincerely cares for you, and you aren't just a number. The nature of therapy is so much more intimate than other situations where similar feelings might arise that it is harder to push them aside. If it were the husband of a sibling or friend we were attracted to, in most cases our brains would shut this down, and we would adapt our behavior to not allow the feelings to flourish. But the nature of therapy almost encourages the love to grow if the parties involved are not careful. So, perhaps the boundaries that seem harsh are necessary to avoid the pain or heartbreak. It shuts the possibility down completely and removes the personal element. Of course I might be an oddity and it's taken a long time for this to work, so maybe it's not effective for everyone, but maybe it could be a little helpful. The thought of ending with him is unbearable for me too, but I understand it would be necessary if the personal longing and heartache were to continue...

[0w6c379]

Thank you Amee for your thoughtfully written post. I know it was written with good intentions. I don't refer to my feelings for T as a "crush" although I suspect he may refer to it that way in speaking to his friends. I'm not saying you are his friend but it is funny you used the word crush as I know he described it that way to a mutual acquaintance of ours. I like how your T explained to you that it was not a rejection. Although T may say that it is against the rules, I know other people have had relationships with their T so it is possible. I feel very rejected.