Needing help re: virginity and relationships

No offense, but you don't sound that comfortable with hardly anybody. Have you seen the movie Harold and Maude? okay, after that - ANY age younger than maude will seem fine! It seems like it's more about removing restrictions, letting yourself go out and live life. Does your first have to be the last woman you sleep with? If the answer is that would be nice, then isn't there a virgins website? We should be able to find a creative solution to this. Btw, I'm a terrible matchmaker, just so you know! But a good problem solver.

AK, do forgive my off topic post here, but I feel it's in the best interest for you getting helpful advice in my attempting to try to reconcile the brewing little argument here. It would be unfortunate for your thread to be lost to this.

With the utmost respect Lycan, I don't think Hamster was trying to "score points" with anyone. Rather, I think Hamster's aim was to try to synthesize and understand your point. Clearly, Hamster differentiates from your point. Thus, I believe her post on page four wasn't a quip at you as much as it was to point out what she felt was a point that needed to be addressed. Ideally, had you two reached a consensus on AK's point, you would both be able to provide constructive points to AK in regards to his dilemma. Hamster, am I incorrect there?

Additionally, given the connotation given to "butthurt" and the high amount of LGBT posters here, I would recommend a different word choice. Granted, I know that's common internet parlance (lol I post on Gamefaqs...I get it, promise ), but I'm not sure it's a good fit here.

Additionally (speaking to Hamster), it may be in, on occasion, your best interest and the interest of others to just let some things go. Your attention to detail, while impressive, can occasionally prove problematic in that, on occasion, you can pick up details that aren't there, or aren't meant to be there. lol I myself have fallen "victim" to that on occasion.

Ultimately, my point isn't to call either one of you out or to pick any sort of side. Simply, I believe it's in the best interest of AK that the "debate," for lack of better word, be cut out, or taken away from AK's thread, as it isn't conducive to his dilemma or helpful to him.

Hugs to all,
Harley

Does this language seem similar to yours:

"Brush her hair back and let your fingertips hover over the surface of her skin."

?

Read up, this is a classic source and I am sure you will get the minimal know-how from reading - she must have answers for most of the questions that can possibly be asked since she has been around for decades, working in the field.

15 tips to make your girl cum (from Men's Health) | Betty Dodson with Carlin Ross

Thanks, Harley, all points taken. I have received similar feedback regarding attention to detail in performance reviews once, so you are in good company reiterating that. Thanks also for making us aware of the connotation of the LGBT-unfriendly term - I will erase the newly acquired word from my database. There are limits to vocabulary expansion. You are clearly quite attuned to sensitive connotations, because when I made a brief search online, I did not pick up on the distasteful part of it.

Back on track for AK482 suggesting a classic route (Betty Dodson) for - not quite "resolving" the issue, but "getting closer to resolving it and becoming more prepared to resolve".

OK, AK482, I think I have an idea if you do not mind being in a non-exclusive relationship. I have spent some time on a national polyamorous email list in the past two weeks, and the following has become apparent:

- people there write voluminous emails - nothing compared to the longest posts on here. Pages and pages and pages of text that consists of a mixture of the hardest GRE words and their own coinages

- people tend to be older, having tried other arrangements first

- people are very touchy-feely and hippie-like

- people are into everything "conscious" - eco-wise, sex-wise, everything-wise. Very conscious - conscious is the word that stands out the most.

- people are used to less-than-usual arrangements and configurations.

- people advertise on OKC as looking for love rather than casual sex (out of consciousness, as far as I have been able to guess)

- some believe in karma

So, I am thinking that if you sign up:
Ohio Valley Polyamory Network

and write an email (however long) with an introduction that openly and honestly states the case, reiterating that you are looking for a conscious connection rather than casual sex, and that you have lots of gifts to share (you do), and leave it at that - I am pretty positive that out of all those people, there would be a kind soul or two, or more, who would want to improve their karma and/or have fun and/or develop a deep connection, and then it would be up to YOU to decide if you like the kind soul(s).

My main points in offering that are:

1) getting away from the societal rigidities - the people on the network will be much more open minded and accepting of all aspects of human sexuality, including, I would say, that of delayed sexual debut.

2) you are currently either turning off women by disclosing lack of experience or are withholding something by not disclosing - either way is bad. If you post an open and honest introduction, you will not be lying so you will not be burdened by the weight of your under-disclosures.

Finally, people who identify as polyamorous do not necessarily have many partners - they identify in a philosophical sense, and many happen to have one partner or even none, and still identify, as a matter of principle, so it is not the case that anybody who responds to you would have an entourage of lovers. Not at all.

So think about it - since your situation is non-standard, a non-standard approach may be the order of the day.

Finally, in terms of learning the know-how, I bet some of those people would be a supreme source of know-how ranging from basic sex acts to Tantra, many-somes, meditative masturbation, etc.etc (not that you want all of those fringe benefits - just stating that they might be available).

Not all the people on the network are old, though. But in general adding to your movie list after Hankster - The Graduate (1967) - IMDb

OP it comes down to this. You have these options.

1. Prostitutes/callgirls. You don't want that that's fine.
2. Sexual surrogate. Too expensive for you
3. Casual sex off the internet.
4. Hit on drunk girls at the bar.
5. Just keep trying your luck at the dating game.
6. Get some counselling
7. Maybe try one of those silly PUA courses.

Considering you don't want to do option 1, can't afford option 2, you don't seem to have the confidence for option 3 4 or 5. And option 7 may get you laid but you want more then just sex.

Your best bet would be to choose option 6. Because you say you want sex and you don't want to be a virgin, but as was mentioned by someone else, it seems like a more underlying problem. If it was purely about sex you can get that.

It's not just about sex though. You do come across as someone who maybe has self-esteem or lack confidence. A good psychotherapist or counsellor could help with that. If you're contemplating suicide over this then it's a concern and you need to find out more about yourself over why this whole thing is such a big issue for you.

I will say, it's your life and you can do what you want and choose to live how you want. But as things stand, it's not working out for you and things probably won't change unless you try something different. I think just going on dates and hoping to get sex and love with that isn't working and the way things are going it may never work.

Sorry I did not explore it enough before recommending. Betty Dodson is an extremist who equates male circumcision with FGM. Take her with a grain of salt - probably most of what she writes is good stuff, but not all - some stuff is extremist.

I am currently working with a therapist right now focusing on self-esteem issues and developing more self-worth and confidence. Right now it's more about me as a person than it is trying to figure out what I need to do to find happiness with another person. I'm also working on trying to not personalize things so much (as I mentioned in the original post, I view public displays of affection as middle fingers to me knowing I've never had that in my life or when people use '40-year old virgin' as a slur).

I have also taken the plunge and gone to a semi-casual hook-up site for people who are really interested in sex. However, the early indications don't seem so great since again the women want a man who knows his way around the bed. And I do want some physical attraction, not just settling for any female who would screw any guy because she's lonely too if she doesn't have some form of physical attraction to me.

Don't tell any of these women you're a virgin, I assume you haven't put that on your profile? If you're on a casual hook up site they won't suspect anyway. And if you do end up having sex with a woman from that site, even if you're terrible, (and let's be honest, almost everybody isn't very good their first time) chances are she won't kick you out of bed at least not before the deed is done.

Oh no, that's totally hush hush. I've just not commented on any sex questions other than maybe what I desire, so that shouldn't give away anything.

As far as performance goes, I wouldn't worry about it. Sex isn't that hard and you figure it out pretty fast.

I'm not a sex expert but I do have some words of advise.

1. Make sure you are clean. If your smelling no so fresh it is a turnoff for most people.
2. Make sure your nails are trimmed. Nothing kills a mood faster than when things are heated and you put your hand down her pants, only to scratch her cliterous.
3. If you find yourself in the position of giving oral sex and have no idea what to do. Find her cliterousnand lick the alphabet. It sounds silly, but it works.
4.Listen to her. That is a good indication if your doing things right. If she starts breathing deeper, and maybe clinching up a bit then she is feeling good. If your lucky she will tell you what she wants and you don't have to do any trial and error.
5. Dont try to just stick it in. If she isn't excited then there will be too much friction to penetrate. Do some foreplay and give her time to get ready. The vagina releases lubricant when she is excited to aid in penetration, as well as widening up some to allow for penetration. Much like an erection you can't really control it and it happens when excited.

Don't worry too much about it and get yourself worked up. If you are not great the first time it isn't really a big deal. It takes people a little while to get to know each other sexually and what gets them off. Best of luck to you.

You are clearly not a sales agent. I am not, either, but I will try to apply the teachings of some very famous writers and songwriters to your situation.

1) The greatest children's book of all times in the history of American literature teaches us how to incentivize people not only to perform a task they might otherwise not be willing to perform, but to PAY for the PRIVILEGE of performing the task.

Tom Sawyer whitewashing the fence

Tom Sawyer supervised the whitewashing of the fence which was done by his gang and the gang members paid for the privilege while he made sure that the work was done correctly.

Clearly, you've read Tom Sawyer, so I won't go into detail.

2) You must have watched one of the greatest US musicals of all times,

Fiddler on the Roof (1971) - IMDb

but most likely you have never read the book on which the musical was based, and, most definitely, you could not have possibly read short stories by the author of the book, Sholem Aleichem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, who was to Yiddish literature what Mark Twain was to American literature. In his stories, one sales agent who was both desperate and ingenious was able to sell:

- water left over after boiling the eggs, as a special broth with healing properties (this business was not sustainable, but you are not looking to build a sustainable business either - you need a successful one-time transaction)

In general, with ingenious copywriting, you can probably sell the air we breathe.

3) A very famous French songwriter who was not popular in the US,

Georges Brassens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,

wrote a charming song about the first sexual experience, and it is one of his most famous songs.
Here it is on YT, with him singing:



So in this song he talks about his memory. Or, as one English commentator said, "Brassens sings about the excitement of first love and its eternal charm"

That commentator also translated and here it the text with the French lines and English lines interchanging. I have made the most important lines bold.

J'ai tout oublié des campagnes
I’ve forgotten all about campa-aigns
D'Austerlitz et de Waterloo
Of Austerlitz and Waterloo
D'Italie, de Prusse et d'Espagne,
Italy, Prussia and in Spa-ain
De Pontoise et de Landerneau
Of Pontoise and of Landerneau.(1)

Jamais de la vie
Never in your lifetime
On ne l'oubliera,
You’ll ever forget her
La première fill'
The very first girl
Qu'on a pris' dans ses bras,
Whom you took in your arms

La première étrangère
The first girl, you had hardly known
À qui l'on a dit "tu" (2)
But asked out, heart in mouth.
Mon coeur, t'en souviens-tu ?)
My heart do you remember ?
Comme ell' nous était chère...
How dear she was to us
Qu'ell' soit fille honnête(3)
Whether she’s a virtuous girl
Ou fille de rien,(4)
Or girl not up to much
Qu'elle soit pucelle (5)
Whether you’re her first boy
Ou qu'elle soit putain, (putain=*****)
Or follow quite a lot
On se souvient d'elle,
You still remember her
On s'en souviendra,
You will remember this
D'la première fill'
About the first girl
Qu'on a pris' dans ses bras
Whom you took in your arms

Ils sont partis à tire-d'aile
They flew away at great spee-eed
Mes souvenirs de la Suzon,
My recollections of Susan
Et ma mémoire est infidèle
And my memory’s been unfaithful
À Julie, Rosette ou Lison
To Julie, Rosetta or Liza.

Jamais de la vie
Never in your lifetime
On ne l'oubliera,
You’ll ever forget her
La première fill'
The very first girl
Qu'on a pris' dans ses bras,
Whom you took in your arms

C'était un' bonne affaire
We struck a very good bargain
(Mon coeur, t'en souviens-tu ?)
My heart do you remember ?
J'ai changé ma vertu
I traded my virtue
Contre une primevère...
And got a primrose flower (6)
Qu' ce soit en grand' pompe
Whether it’s done with great pomp
Comme les gens "bien",
As the « proper » folk do
Ou bien dans la ru',
Or else down in the street
Comm' les pauvre' et les chiens,
As the poor people and the dogs
On se souvient d'elle,
You still remember her
On s'en souviendra,
You will remember this
D'la première fill'
About the first girl
Qu'on a pris' dans ses bras
Whom you took in your arms

Toi, qui m'as donné le baptême
You who gave me the baptism-me
D'amour et de septième ciel,
Of love and of the seventh heaven
Moi, je te garde et, moi, je t'aime,
Know I keep you, Know I love you
Dernier cadeau du Pèr' Noël !
Last gift sent from Santa Claus (7)

Jamais de la vie
Never in your lifetime
On ne l'oubliera,
You’ll ever forget her
La première fill'
The very first girl
Qu'on a pris' dans ses bras,
Whom you took in your arms

On a beau fair' le brave,
So much for the brave front
Quand ell' s'est mise nue
When she stripped herself bare
(Mon coeur, t'en souviens-tu ?)
My heart do you remember?
On n'en menait pas large(8)...
You fell right down to my boots.
Bien d'autres, sans doute,
Many others, there’s no doubt
Depuis, sont venues,
Have come along since then
Oui, mais, entre toutes
Yes, but, among them all,
Celles qu'on a connues,
The ones that you have known-
Elle est la dernière
She is the very last one
Que l'on oubliera,
Who will get forgotten
La première fill'
The very first girl
Qu'on a pris' dans ses bras,
Whom you took in your arms

So, what do we learn from George Brassens, who is as good a source as one can think of?

First, we learn that it is OK if the first girl is a *****, which lends support to Lycanthrope's suggestion to hire a hooker, except that you do not want potentially damaging consequences since it is illegal in Ohio and you value your employment. But, at least in theory - it is OK, per Brassens, who probably knew what he was talking about.

Second, we learn that the very last memory to leave the mind of a dying man is that of the first girl he took in his arms. On his deathbed, he would remember her and her alone - his memory is unfaithful to all who would come later, but faithful to her. That part is very important, because this is the unique value YOU and YOU alone will need to present on the market place - it is almost as good as it gets, almost a ticket to eternal life for the woman who will become the first girl you will take in your arms. Again, I am not suggesting that you charge for the privilege. I am only suggesting that you advertise the unique value for what it is in order to obtain multiple offers, and then choose from among them based on the woman you like best.

Here is a half-assed attempt at an analogy with your current hush-hush approach.

Imagine (weird, but please try) that you have inherited a quaint Victorian house from your great grandfather who did not have any money for upkeep. All the other Victorian houses have long been demolished, and new development has been put in place. The houses in the new development are great in that they offer superior insulation, energy efficiency, and surround sound. However, they all look the same and are boring. Very energy efficient but boring. And your quaint Victorian house is not energy efficient and has no surround sound, but is... unique and not at all boring.

So you need to sell the house "as is" as you have no money for remodeling.

Two approaches:

(A) pretend that your house is energy efficient, try to stage it in a way that would make it look like one of the new development houses, give some alcohol to visitors to impair their judgment, and keep your fingers crossed hoping that at least one potential buyer would not notice and you will be able to sell to her.

(B) not pretend anything but advertise the house for its quaint uniqueness, in a bold way, and expect to be able to select your buyer from a long list of people who want the unique value your quaint Victorian house presents.

***

OK, we do not know whether (A) or (B) would work better, but, luckily, we are not selling the house - we are advertising you on casual sex dating sides, which, I bet, are numerous around the web. So... we need to set up an experiment!

For the experiment, you will need two different casual sex sites, two pictures on which you look different, two different userids, and vastly different ad copy verbiage (the text of the profile is ad copy).

(A) on this casual sex dating site you will try to pretend that you are just like anybody else - a sexually experienced man, and hope that she won't notice

(B) on this casual dating site you will express an interest in looking at offers from various women who want to be forever seared into your memory, delivering the very last gift from Santa to you. I cannot possibly imagine that there would not be a lot of women who would find it fun to take your virginity because... it is NOT BORING!!! And they can still sleep with more experienced garden variety men out there, to their hearts content, but you could be their most unique and cherished trophy!

***

So to the extent that you are prepared to spend some money on it, the money can be spent on:

- therapy to increase self-esteem - work in progress
- hooker - not considered for a number of reasons, primarily due to threat to employment
- surrogate - out of your price range
- PR agency!! You can hire a PR agency to write the ad copy for casual sex dating site (B)! A PR agency will create a unique brand for you, which is what you need, and as a result, you won't be ashamed the way you currently are, you won't be near-suicidal - you will be a proud owner of a unique brand (hopefully, only for a short time).

***

Another quote from a famous American applies to your situation:

Dale Carnegie > Quotes > Quotable Quote

“If You Have A Lemon, Make A Lemonade"

***

OK, I sincerely hope that I did not offend you by speaking of your difficulties in market terms, but please realize that to some extent everything in a market economy is a market - your work skills and the time of your life you spend working are sold to the highest bidder... right? So, I did not want to take away from the poignancy of your situation, which you did describe very well, nor to make fun of your predicament for no reason - I just wanted to remind you that you live in the most advanced capitalist country in the whole world, so you might as well use the tools available to people who want to sell something on the market, and sell it well. And, while Tom Sawyer's approach to creating value out of nothing by selling a privilege was used in good humor, the song about the first girl whom you will take in your arms was used in all seriousness, as I wish you a good journey and hope that you will have good memories of your first time, and second time, and many many times thereafter.

Adam: Thanks for the sound advice. When I have my fantasies I do consider the foreplay and intimacy before penetration. I believe in the concept of the entire experience not just intercourse (or as I call it a "wham, bam, thank you ma'am )

Hamster: Very eloquently written. That's what I would feel about my first time, and I hope she would feel just as flattered that I would consider her worthy of my first time. An interesting question: when setting up the profile, should I use language like "it's been awhile" (it really has) or "not very experienced" (again true)? When I'm asked for my turn-ons, I list what I think that I would most like, hopefully it doesn't give me away as a virgin.

Thank you. Are you asking me about the specifics of setting up the profile? I only have an OKC profile, which was set up based on the advice I got on the bipolar forum when a woman got a list of "research-proven" keywords from a radio station, plus a bit of creativity. But the keywords for "research-proven" for 1) women, 2) regular dating sites, not specialized casual sex sites. OKC does not ask for turn-ons. Technically speaking, "not very experienced" is more correct, if I can put it this way.

Yup! Precisely the right attitude!

Well, I also had an OKC profile, which is where the virginity issue was brought up. I thought being honest and forthright was something important and that a woman might be willing to be accepting, but I found very negative responses to that.

Right now I'm on a site called SocialSex (it's pretty NSFW even if it's not all sex all the time) and I've been very silent about my lack of experience. They do have choices for turn-ons and turn-offs, which I do have and list.

That's right, do not mention anything about being a virgin or lack of experience. A lot of people would view using lack of experience as another way of saying you're a virgin.

I agree. Just try to relax and live in the moment. Don't think too much about how they feel or what they think of you. If you want to know ask them. If they can't accept you for who you are, then they aren't right for you. If you try to live up to some expectation you are setting for yourself, then you will always feel like you are not good enough to please them. Just try to let yourself out and enjoy the experinces with the other person.

this is because you had the "I timidly hope you will excuse me honesty and forthrightness", instead of "you should feel SOOOOO flattered honesty and forthrightness".

In other words, attitude over and above facts. Half empty half full is also about this. Pretty much most things are about this, actually.

Speaking of casual sex - OKC has an option of wanting "casual sex" in goals - they have many options, just as LI allows you to list what purpose is valid for somebody to contact you - getting back in touch, business opportunities or whatever they call them, same idea. So I have seen men who want A,B,C, and casual sex, too.

There is probably a button/option to narrow down your searches so that you pull JUST those who list casual sex among their interests. I have been contacted by people wanting "new friends, short-term dating, activity partners, casual sex" and I have not yet seen a person with just "casual sex", but I have not used the site enough yet. The point is, they must have functionality that would only show you casual sex seekers. So I wouldn't abandon it altogether - the more the merrier.

I see that SocialSex.com has copyright going back to 2004, claims to be the biggest of this kind on the web, is professionally done, is very tastefully done which must have been difficult given the subject matter (the splash page that you see without registration), so, it seems that they know what they are doing and you are on the right track. I see that they guarantee hookups - does it mean "money back if no sex within 3 months of subscribing"? How much is the monthly cost?

At any rate, they are either not being serious, or guaranteeing something or your money back, which is basically meaningless and no guarantee for you - but you do not seem to be the kind of guy who would take such statements at face value anyway.

And here is something off YT (have not watched it):

Jan 17, 2013 – SocialSex.com - Social Sex | Sexbook | ****book for Adults! SocialSex: Adult dating secrets revealed. New video shows the best method to score with local hookups. Are you looking for ...

OK, an interesting update.

- I logged on to OKC, which is always fun to do because I meet all kinds of really weird people on it. Somehow I found myself answering questions. I am not sure how.

- A question came up about virginity. The question was phrased in gender-neutral terms and asked me if I would be comfortable dating a virgin who is 25 or older (or something along those lines - the important number is 25).

- I then checked on Wikipedia and learned that the questions on OKC are user-submitted (I am sure OKC has an editorial workforce to prune the questions, but they are not advertising that behind-the-scenes part).

- OKC is very big, subscriber-base-wide.

- So what do we learn from this? We learn that there exist enough virgins aged 25 or older for OKC's user base to have come up with this question. Some OKC's questions are about remote subjects, but most are about dating-related concerns. I have not seen questions about naming all the planets in the Solar system. So there is some burning relevance to this question for enough people out there.

- to conclude, you are not alone.

Thread bump: I'm on Social Sex just looking to get some right now. Apparently even there prior sex is a requisite to get some action . There's one gal whom I'm chatting with, but she won't even meet up with me whenever I propose a hookup. I'm getting so frustrated with the entire exercise.

I'm seriously ready to just give up on ever having sex or love in my life, because I'm too obvious about my virginity. No, I don't mention it at all, but I don't mention anything about any sexual escapades so women I believe take that as a clue that i don't have any experience. If I had my life to live all over again I would've thrown away the values I grew up with and screwed someone in a drunken tizzy just to claim I've had some. I wish I would have been taught that sex was needed as a pre-requisite for love I can't deal with any more dammit, I can't. What do I have to do!??!?!?!?!!

I've also permanently deleted my OKCupid account, as that has been the site that triggered my feelings and caused me the most anguish.

Canadian sex workers? Ask to be shown many things at once, so that you can later discuss escapades as if you were a seasoned guy? You live close to Canada.

That's pretty much how I feel. However I would never have the audacity to ask/seek for sex of any kind. I'm also a girl. Being a female virgin is beginning to have a stigma attached to it. No one wants to have to take it slow and be gentle and "break in" a virgin. Not when they can get a girl who's already properly trained and will do whatever the other person wants. I mean, why would anyone (male or female) want to make it hard on themselves? But then, that doesn't make sense to me—someone dating/hooking up with you wouldn't have exert any more effort to get you to have sex than they would the average person. Perhaps less.

I'm about to turn 25 and I can't deal with it anymore either. I haven't been able to deal with it for several years. I mean, I have more degrees than times I've been kissed. Not number of people I've been kissed, total kisses of all time. That's beyond sad. I could go on with even more depressing statistics, but I'm not going to...the point's been made.

And screw OkCupid. I've had (and deleted) at least three profiles on there for various reasons.

Maybe you would have better luck with other virgins...although good luck figuring out who they are. No one is going to admit their a virgin past the age of 21 (maybe it's even 18 now).

They seriously state that you need 'experience' to belong on these sites?! C'mon!!! Ugh, what's wrong with this world?!

Granted, you haven't had that '1st' time, just realize, how many people in this world have sexless marriages, and how many people in this world, just choose to take time off, and not sleep around. Not quite virgin status, but um, yeah, it's frustrating to live in a drought, so to speak, but have faith, hun!!!

Maybe, you just haven't met the right woman. As cliché, as that may sound, I am not kidding!!

That first time, deserves some specialness. Take it from someone, who's first time, wasn't so special!!

The lines I always keep seeing are "I want a guy who knows what he's doing" or "a guy who's been around the bedroom." Doesn't sound like me .

Re: Hamster's suggestion. If only I could get some vacation time to get that proper experience it would be great .