[deliquesce]

ummm... *sigh*... this is part confession/part question/part asking if anyone else can possibly relate...

i used to ask for the SA to happen. not the traumatic parts, just some of it - the bits i could control. i didn't just encourage it from the person who did it to me, but from other male authority figures in my life.

i used to get really upset if they said no, and i would try to manipulate them so they would part take.

sometimes even now i think that i need to do this and it makes me not trust myself. e.g., right now i desperately want a hug from my T, but i am worried i will sexualise it. also, i wonder if i do it unconsciously sometimes too, because a lot of older men have thought we had something more than friendship/professional interest in common. it makes me really sad when people see me this way, like i'm a sexual object and nothing more, even when i'm trying hard not to be.

so, i feel like a useless *****.

and i know it's my fault, but i don't know what to do. i don't trust myself to go to therapy anymore. i don't trust myself to ask questions of my lecturers in person. i worry about talking to my work colleagues because they inevitably ask me out. part of it is manipulative, i know, but i still get sad when it happens. i want to be loved, not have sex.

but i think that, now that i'm an adult, that having someone care about you deeply doesn't happen unless you also put out.

anyway. i lost my question. it was something to do with forgiveness, but i dont think that applies, because i'm a bad person who hasn't done anything to redeem herself. maybe, if anyone can relate, it would be nice. but i'm probably the only slut who does this. maybe advice on how to stop, but i'm not sure i want to.

(also, just a request: for those of you who know me in the psychotherapy forums, let's pretend this thread doesn't exist outside of here - i don't want to be reminded about this anywhere else ).

[Christina86]

I relate. I'm also convinced that I "asked for it" and continue to ask to be hurt and abused... because like you, I want to be able to at least control SOME part of it. Control is a big thing for people who have been abused I think - we didn't have the control to stop it the first time(s), so we'll try to control what we can. It doesn't make you bad, or weird, or sick or anything like that... I think it's a normal coping mechanism to deal with stuff.

I'm really good at manipulating people. I admit that, even if it's hard to. I'll manipulate people to be mean to me, because I feel I deserve it. I manipulate people to leave me, because I feel like I deserve to be abandoned again. I manipulate people to "care" about me. I manipulate people to sometimes stop me from hurting myself - I do it because even though it's hard for me to believe most of the time, I DESPERATELY want someone to care about me. Someone who is going to say "No" and who is going to care about me and love me for who I am - not for what I am, not for what someone can exploit from me... nothing like that.

Old habits, old patterns, old tapes in our head ... are really really really hard to break!!!

Okay. Enough of ME rambling though!!

YOU ARE NOT A USELESS *****.

YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO BE USED OR ABUSED.

YOU ARE NOT BAD OR STUPID OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO BE HURT.

YOU ARE NOT A SLUT. YOU ARE NOT BAD.

Do something good for yourself - stop using bad words to describe yourself. I know that's hard - but at the very least, let SOMEONE ELSE tell you that you're bad - you don't need to make it worse for yourself. (PS. If someone calls you bad or anything nasty like that... I might have some really foul and mean things to say to them! NOBODY treats someone I know like that!)

Also, just because you're an "adult" now, doesn't mean you've emotionally been able to "grow up". We're sometimes stuck with childhood trauma and emotions and memories and other bad stuff... and that's kinda like emotionally "stunting" us. So we may LOOK like an adult, but sometimes we're still scared and alone and really really hurting. It sounds weird, but I think it's true... we need to "parent" and care for ourselves like we should have been in the past. We need to get through the bad stuff, and deal with it, in order to be happier and more "grounded".

IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT. It has NEVER been your fault. It is those bad people who have hurt you, that helped you get stuck with playing out the same bad pattern over and over again - it's kinda like an "addiction". We get stuck in the same old rut in stuff because that's sometimes all we know.

But sometimes, what we DONT know is the best for us. Even if it's really, really, really scary.

[deliquesce]

Originally Posted by Christina86

I'm really good at manipulating people. I admit that, even if it's hard to. I'll manipulate people to be mean to me, because I feel I deserve it. I manipulate people to leave me, because I feel like I deserve to be abandoned again. I manipulate people to "care" about me. I manipulate people to sometimes stop me from hurting myself - I do it because even though it's hard for me to believe most of the time, I DESPERATELY want someone to care about me. Someone who is going to say "No" and who is going to care about me and love me for who I am - not for what I am, not for what someone can exploit from me... nothing like that.

oh gosh, christina, thank you so much for posting this . it scares me how much i can get people to do what i want, and then it gets me really upset sometimes when they don't. sometimes i worry that i am inadvertently manipulating people - like my pdoc, i need to stop seeing him because he is good and i am bad - but if i tell him that, then he convinces me i'm not, and it's ok to keep seeing him. but i worry that maybe he thinks i'm just saying all of that so i can hear that i'm not a bad person. maybe i'm just doing it for attention, or for an expression of caring or concern, or something.

i like him because he is nice to me, but i don't know what i do for him. i used to pay him, but now he sees me for free because i'm not working anymore. so sometimes i think i need to look pretty, or be entertaining, or do something that will make him like me. it is difficult because i'm not in control with this one, and i think you're right - manipulation is about control .

Also, just because you're an "adult" now, doesn't mean you've emotionally been able to "grow up". We're sometimes stuck with childhood trauma and emotions and memories and other bad stuff... and that's kinda like emotionally "stunting" us. So we may LOOK like an adult, but sometimes we're still scared and alone and really really hurting. It sounds weird, but I think it's true... we need to "parent" and care for ourselves like we should have been in the past. We need to get through the bad stuff, and deal with it, in order to be happier and more "grounded".

but how do you learn to parent yourself? i do understand why no one wanted to look after me, so why should i do that for myself? more than that: it's like... i want to keep in touch with reality. if there is no one in my life who thinks i'm someone of worth enough to care about, and care about in a meaningful way (not just a thought from the other side of the world kind of caring), then maybe it really is the case that i'm not someone worth caring about. i dont want to delude myself otherwise, yknow?

thank you so much for replying, though, christina . it means the world to me that someone relates to parts of what i said. and can still see me as not tainted or bad because of it .

[darkrunner]

HI Deli,

My T gave me this analogy, which really helped me understand why I continued to put myself into an abusive situation.

It is like a person who is stranded in the middle of the ocean. They become so thirsty (for water, or love/affection), that they start drinking the salty water. And then the salty water is wrong and makes them even THIRSTIER, so they keep going back for more and drinking it, until it eventually kills them.

When you are manipulated by someone, part of you may feel so bad that you continue to go back to them to try to feel better, or to make the situation right, but since you are going back to a manipulative person, it is like drinking the salt water.....it only ends up hurting you more.

I don't know if this analogy makes sense to you or applies to you.....if not that's ok.....I want you to know I read your post and I care.

[chaotic13]

I think on some level I torture myself over and over again.Then pay the price mentally later.I don't know why..I think it is because I want so badly to feel normal.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((deli)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I read what you wrote, and I can relate. And I understand your fears about pdoc...I love T and we DO hug and I always, always have this little part of me wondering if I could manipulate him into anything I want. I understand that fear.

You are NOT a bad person. I like ktgirl's analogy a lot.

And I just wanted you to know I read your post and I care

[pachyderm]

(((((deliquesce)))))

(((((deliquesce)))))
Im going ot say as everyone has said you are not bad,
You did not deserve it.
ever....
when things like this happen at childhood or when ever its forever in our brains.
Your T cares
Put a big note on your comp.............
YOU MATTER

it will not always help.
But you will know you matter to us

[deliquesce]

(((((everyone))))).

ktgirl - your analogy makes a lot of sense. thank you for sharing . it is just... scary and confronting that i was drinking salt water, so to speak, at such a young age. i know that sexual acting out can be something kids do if they are being hurt, but i always thought it was mainly for teens, or maybe slightly younger kids. i feel abnormal for starting so young.

chaotic - thank you for replying. your comment intrigues me - "i want to feel normal". could you explain a bit, do you think? you don't have to, of course. for me, it's because i wanted to feel special. i used to tell the people i solicited that i would do x,y,z if they would be my special friend. i guess i am lucky they didnt get angry with me.

tree - . how do you deal with that fear? have you spoken to T about it? could you ask your T on my behalf ? god bless my pdoc, because i love him dearly, but i think i was absolutely freak him out if i ever said something along those lines. he is an awesome man, but he was trained as a medical dr, not a psychotherapist, and i think would just drown in any sort of transference issue i threw at him.

pachy - ((((hugs back at you)))). thank you for taking the time to read and send me hugs.

muffy - oh my goodness, i must've been typing for over an hour, because your post just showed up after i hit reply, but it was made way earlier than mine. i like the idea of putting up a sign on my computer. i would put all of your faces around it too (ahah, your faces = avatars) and so remember i have pc-friends who think i'm something special. that does make a world of difference. thank you .

[shezbut]

deli!

Yes, I can relate. I have those same thoughts of myself as well. Just now am beginning to realize that I do have a tendency to manipulate men, in order to gain their emotional support. My self-esteem has been long gone all of my life, and I suppose that's why. But...

You are not a useless *****.

You are not the only one.

You are not a slut.

You do not deserve to be treated poorly. Ever!


Shez

[darkrunner]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

it is just... scary and confronting that i was drinking salt water, so to speak, at such a young age. i know that sexual acting out can be something kids do if they are being hurt, but i always thought it was mainly for teens, or maybe slightly younger kids. i feel abnormal for starting so young.

(((((Deli)))))

From what I understand, it is VERY normal for little kids who are SA to re-enact SA with other children.

You were an innocent child Deli. You were confused and manipulated and mis-led. Can you try to feel a little compassion for the little child who was taken advantage of? I have lots of compassion for you.....
What is a 'normal response' to such a thing?
You did the best you could....maybe you were trying to make sense of what happened to you....maybe you were acting out because you felt bad about yourself because of what someone did to you.

You said you 'asked for' the bits you could control. I think it is shows a strong desire to cope with a situation that was OUT of your control. You can't be faulted for using such a coping skill, when that is what you had been shown.

Be gentle with yourself, OK?

[deliquesce]

((((shezbut)))) - thank you for your kind response, sweetie. i'm sorry you feel down about this too. i think low (no) self esteem does have a large part to do with it. have you found anything helpful in changing those sorts of pattens? this is what i think i need to start addressing.

ktgirl - you're always a gorgeous, compassionate person around here . thank you for being so kind and accepting. the bit i feel gross about is that i asked other adults for it, not kids. i could almost get it if it was something i did with my peers because maybe then i had a chance of being in control. but playing into the dynamic that i did, over and over, it is like i just encouraged it. i didnt want the specific acts to happen, but i knew that if they did then those adults would love me more.

i guess i am lucky i ended up being sent to an all-girls school, with no male teachers, because my opportunities to act out dramatically reduced after that.

[shezbut]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

((((shezbut)))) - thank you for your kind response, sweetie. i'm sorry you feel down about this too. i think low (no) self esteem does have a large part to do with it. have you found anything helpful in changing those sorts of pattens? this is what i think i need to start addressing.

I agree with the lack of self-esteem playing a large role in how low we feel. Unfortunately, I'm at the beginning of working on my issues. I wish that I knew of techniques to boost self-confidence and stop blaming myself for everything. I'm right there with you !

Shez

[darkrunner]

TY for you kind words

=======================================================

You also said:

Originally Posted by deliquesce

the bit i feel gross about is that i asked other adults for it, not kids.

i just want to say, adults should always protect children, no matter how misguided a child's behavior may be.....doesn't give them the right to take advantage of you.....(((((Deli)))))

It is normal that you acted out that way as a means to obtain love and caring from adults around you. The adults should have seen that you were in trouble and HELPED you, not hurt you more. YOu are not at fault (keep repeating until you believe that....and I will too about my own situation....b/c I know how hard it is to believe. )

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by ktgirl

The adults should have seen that you were in trouble and HELPED you, not hurt you more.

They would have -- if they had truly been adults. There is a limited number of those around, it seems to me sometimes.

[multipixie9]

For so long (years and years) I fought off remembering certain things. I did that because these were things I cooperated in. The shame seemed infinite to me. I felt doomed. These things were not all sexual, some were violent and some satanic religion. But I felt soooo guilty.

Not sure how many times my T repeated this one fact to me. "YOU HAD NO POWER AND THERFORE, NO RESPONSIBILITY" They had ALL the control. You had NO control. I am sure you did some things that were wrong, you are a human and we all mess up.

Another good one from my T "Don't be so HARD on yourelf". being that way is self-destructive to your life. If God isn't mad at you and you are mad at you...does that mean you have higher standards for yourself than God??? Quit picking on my friend, please!

Leslie and leah

{{{ Deli }}}

Survivors of abuse act out in sexual ways because it's a familiar, learned behavior. Remember, kids look to adults as their role models.

It doesn't matter at what age the acting out starts. For some it begins very early, for some it's delayed, for some it doesn't happen at all but shows up elsewhere in their adult relationships.

It's hard not to "punish" ourselves. We are pissed off and someone should be punished, but who? How? I think sometimes it's just easier to turn that anger on ourselves. We hang onto our guilt and shame because we are in control of it.

We can tell you a million times that it's not your fault, but I think this is something that only comes to us when we are ready to start letting go. It will click with you in time. It happened to me one day while getting a haircut. It was such an eye-opening moment that I wrote about it.

OLD FRIENDS

"How old is she?" I asked the mother of the little girl who was practicing her cheerleading routine in front of the mirror. I was enjoying her twirls and jumps while I waited to get my hair cut.

"Oh, she's eleven," the woman smiled. I smiled back but had stopped breathing.

Eleven? She looked so young. So childlike. So innocent.

I couldn't take my eyes off her yet I couldn't look away. It was at that moment I finally "heard" what my therapist had been trying to tell me for years. I was a child. It wasn't my fault. I was only two-four-six-eight-ten. Pick one.

All the years of self-blame, shame and anger suddenly turned into a swirling mass of confusion and I felt dizzy and detached. I choked back tears. I always thought I was so much older then. I'd convinced myself that I wanted it. Dismissed it as no big deal. After all, I was old enough to know better for chrissakes, get over it.

Maybe I felt older because I'd started smoking cigarettes soon after my father died. I was ten. Two years later I was drinking alcohol and graduated to smoking marijuana at thirteen. Shoplifting, skipping school, lying. All these things made me older. Made me tougher. No one could hurt me if I built a moat around me and filled it with a cocky attitude.

I left the hairdressers and drove straight to the library. I wanted to see what life was like for kids back then. What other things existed besides being fatherless in a house that reeked of addicts? What should I have been doing at age eleven instead of being abused by a drunken sailor on shore leave?

I grabbed a stack of books about the sixties and made my way over to a table. I flipped through one about vintage toys and the gray mist that had clouded my memories began to lift. And there they were, pictures of my beloved dolls that I'd gotten rid of one day out of the clear blue because I thought I was too old to play with them. I wonder now if that move was symbolic. If I was throwing my self away.

My heart warmed as my fingers traced the faces of my old friends. Friends that I had told my deepest secrets to. Friends that let me cry. Friends that I loved with all my heart.

I set about searching for those friends and, thanks to eBay, I own most of them again. They help remind me that I wasn't bad, it wasn't my fault and I really was just a little kid. They help remind me that I am capable of loving. With each old friend I bring home, I take one more step on the path to healing that lost little girl.

SJN © 2004

[mixedup_emotions]

Wow, Orange Blossom.....That story touched me, deeply, especially when I'm just uncovering the suppressed memories of my past....

Thanks m-u-e.

It truly was an eye-opener. I will never forget that moment. It was definetly a turning point in my healing.

[mixedup_emotions]

Originally Posted by Orange_Blossom

Thanks m-u-e.

It truly was an eye-opener. I will never forget that moment. It was definetly a turning point in my healing.

I hope that moment will come for me....that it wasn't my fault.

((( SAFE HUGS )))

I know it doesn't seem it. Trust me, never in a million years did I expect to come to that point but I did and you will too. Probably when you least expect it.

[Christina86]

Originally Posted by mixedup_emotions

I hope that moment will come for me....that it wasn't my fault.

For some, it's a wake up call - like a big flashing sign and they just "get it".

For others (like me) it's sometimes a day-to-day thing. For me, I know rationally that it wasn't my fault. If another person had been in my situation and was like me - and then told me about the experience, I'd tell them it wasn't their fault. So what gives me the right to say it WAS my fault, when if anyone else was in my shoes I'd tell them it wasn't??

That's my sort of wake up call. Treating myself not like how I want to be treated, not treating myself like I feel I deserve to be treated ... but treating myself how someone else who was exactly like me would be treated by me. Put someone else in your shoes, and see how you'd react to them. What you'd say, what you'd do... now, assuming that we're all nice people here, I'm going to bet we'd treat a person who has suffered like we have pretty well.

Then we need to start doing small things to be nice to ourselves.

Perhaps realize that maybe one part of the incident/experience wasn't in our control. That's what it is, control. Not that it's our fault - but that we didn't have the control in the situation so we assume that it's fault. Control makes the world go round... and it's not a bad thing, but it can be a detrimental thing.

Or you could do something like a personal mantra...

"It was not my fault. It was not my fault. It was not my fault" ... rinse, repeat as necessary.

I'm going to share something here that I haven't even written down for you all yet (I was going to post in Psychotherapy, lol) ... my therapist this week wrote me down something, apparently something she wants me to remember.

"I did the best I could with what I had".

It's maybe not saying "It's not my fault" but it's a good first step to getting there. If you consider all of your skills/talents/whatever you had that was working for you in the "bad situation" ... we mostly realize we didn't exactly have the most control over things. And that sucks to realize. And then we realize that we tried our best to protect ourselves, and we tried our best to be good to ourselves - and then we realize that in all situations of abuse - it is a control thing for the abusers. THEY want to control us. We just want to control ourselves. You realize ... over what can be a long period of time ... that you DO have control now. You might not have before, but you do now. You can fight back. You can place the blame where it's due ... on the shoulders of those who have hurt you.

But that takes a lot of time and a lot of effort and don't stress yourself out trying to change overnight... because we're all still learning, it's a constant process of forgiving ourselves.

[mixedup_emotions]

Thanks....I can't even say the words to myself aloud, "it's not my fault"....because I find fault in everything. I'm going to post something separately since I don't want to sabotage this thread.

[Christina86]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

oh gosh, christina, thank you so much for posting this . it scares me how much i can get people to do what i want, and then it gets me really upset sometimes when they don't. sometimes i worry that i am inadvertently manipulating people - like my pdoc, i need to stop seeing him because he is good and i am bad - but if i tell him that, then he convinces me i'm not, and it's ok to keep seeing him. but i worry that maybe he thinks i'm just saying all of that so i can hear that i'm not a bad person. maybe i'm just doing it for attention, or for an expression of caring or concern, or something.

i like him because he is nice to me, but i don't know what i do for him. i used to pay him, but now he sees me for free because i'm not working anymore. so sometimes i think i need to look pretty, or be entertaining, or do something that will make him like me. it is difficult because i'm not in control with this one, and i think you're right - manipulation is about control

Hey, we're all manipulative a bit. It's just when you realize it that you've got the most control over yourself and your actions. We all have control issues too, even if we don't always realize it. Like me... I'm "codependent", my life is founded on trying to make other people happy with me - if I can help others, if I can make other people happy, if I can "fix" others, that means I can feel good about ME. It's not about the person I'm trying to help ultimately - it's about ME. My feelings of inadequacy and hating myself. Not the other person.

(Actually I just figured out that second last line just now. Thanks! More self discovery...)

Wanting attention isn't bad. Wanting affirmations from others isn't bad. But making it your whole life and purpose is rather unhealthy. You've figured out your behaviour - now you can change it, it just takes a lot of effort. Perhaps something to discuss with the pdoc or a T?

You are not "bad". Your pdoc is ultimately not "good". You are both ultimately human though, with the good and the bad.

Wanting control over things isn't bad. It does become unhealthy and unwanted by others when you try to overtly control them though (take that advice from me from personal experience). I'm seen as a "mothering figure" by my friends. I will mother people to death if I could... part of my nature, I guess as a woman we've all got it to an extent. But part of it IS because I want to have people to depend on me, because that would make me feel better about myself. It's like having a kid simply because you want someone to love you unconditionally. It's a bad and unhealthy idea! Get a dog instead.

but how do you learn to parent yourself? i do understand why no one wanted to look after me, so why should i do that for myself? more than that: it's like... i want to keep in touch with reality. if there is no one in my life who thinks i'm someone of worth enough to care about, and care about in a meaningful way (not just a thought from the other side of the world kind of caring), then maybe it really is the case that i'm not someone worth caring about. i dont want to delude myself otherwise, yknow?

You learn to parent yourself by, at least in my case - NOT LISTENING TO YOUR PARENTS. Especially if they're the primary "abusers" in your life or you come from a dysfunctional family like me. Helpful advice isn't exactly helpful if it's hurtful, ultimately.

You parent yourself by sometimes acting childish. Allowing yourself to do some things that kids do. By allowing yourself to explore and experience healthy things you never got to as a kid. Hang out with young children. I love doing it, because it allows me to re-experience aspects of my childhood in a new way, and it's eye-opening and really fun! Try constructing proper boundaries. Go to therapy. Allow yourself to say "NO" on occasion (lots of kids aren't allowed to say no when they're young and wind up messed up later... a parent should allow a kids decision on occasion. It builds esteem and self-reliance!) Read lots of books on the topic (there are tons on the "inner child" at bookstores, some good and some are bad... read some of a book before you buy it ). Find a fun hobby that is childish (to some). I love stickerbooking. I also act a lot like a kid according to many people... learn to laugh. Learn to smile. Step in mud puddles. Do fun things.

I have a rebuttal to your second question. It's not that nobody wanted to look after you... it's that they were messed up in their own ways (not excusing their behaviour) and didn't know how to react properly. Parenting classes are wonderful things. I think everyone should be forced to take one before they become a parent - with a mandatory passing grade. (Oh, how I wish...). Okay, nobody cared enough about you then - that really sucks. But YOU care about you now. You cared enough to go get therapy. You cared enough to post this post. You cared enough to join PsychCentral for help. You cared enough about yourself to question what's happened to you in the past. YOU CARE ABOUT YOU. Even if it's not always apparent.

Here is the reality: In the world, there are over SIX BILLION people. That's a lot of people! A wonderful email I've read before says that every day (at least) someone, somewhere, is thinking of you fondly and cares about you. At the very least - one person cares enough about you to think about you. It doesn't seem very comforting when you're by yourself though, right? Do you own a pet? If you don't - I recommend it. Highly. I own three rats ... they honestly sometimes are the only reason I get up in the morning. They love me, in their own way. Even if that means grooming my eyebrows.

Everyone is worthy of love and respect. What makes you so special that you're not worthy of the love and respect that everyone else deserves? Are you "sub-human"?

The last paragraph is supposed to sound a bit ... not nice. It was said to me, and it hurt and annoyed me. But it was useful. We think that we dont' deserve good stuff because of past events, and past people. The thought pattern is - "if someone in the past didn't care about me, then why should I care about myself?" Or "if someone hurt me before, someone else will hurt me again in the future". It's a negative tape in your head that keeps shouting the same old thing over and over again until its engrained.

But...

It's WRONG.

You ARE worthy of love and respect.
You DO deserve to be cared about.
You ARE good.

thank you so much for replying, though, christina . it means the world to me that someone relates to parts of what i said. and can still see me as not tainted or bad because of it .

Quite welcome, I hope I didn't ramble too much again.

You aren't bad, nor tainted. You are a lovely person, and I'm thrilled to know you - even if it's just through the computer, on an interent website community.

[phoenix7]

Deliquesce, I am so sorry you feel this way - hopefully after reading what others have said you will realise IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT - adults are supposed to protect children - even from themselves if necessary - they didnt - they didnt take care of you - you are NOT bad, you are NOT a *****, you are a kind caring person and you are loved (in the right way ) by so many here and that would not happen if you were bad.

Children do try anything they can to get their needs met and when they have been taught bad ways of showing affection () that is what they do - they lok for affection and caring any way they can good or bad -

you my dear Deli are a GOOD person