[Mama Drama]

Quick background: Married young, met my first husband at 17. Spent 11 years in an extremely abusive marriage in a time when the police couldnt arrest the abuser unless caught in the act. Textbook abuser I guess, I was isolated, degraded, and 18 miles away from anyone hearing my screams. I fought back at first, not understanding the volatile relationship I was in. The beatings got worse, to the point I thought I would surely die "this time". Then something inside me snapped when he turned on our youngest child and only daughter, picking her up and shaking her violently when she touched something of his. I found a way to leave. I was done.

He retaliated by kidnapping the children while I was at work and living in hiding from him, then getting a divorce on the grounds of abandonment without my knowledge. I didnt know where my children were for 3 long, painful years. In that time I met a man and married him and we spent thousands of dollars in legal fees and investigator expenses until we found my children. I got full custody and began the process of rebuilding our lives. When my youngest child was 17, my second husband left me. My 2 sons were now by this time adults and living on thier own. So, it was my daughter and me, who were very close and, as I had liked to think back then, "a team".
I poured everything into her. I was poor but she found a way to go to college, I did the best I could by her, spoiled her, doted on her. She was my light. I built her up, wanting her to be strong so she would never have to endure what I did.
Then last year I began to sense something strange in her behavior towards me. She was no longer as loving as she had been but I thought it was the stress of school and living in NYC. (she had always been a small town girl) I would ask her if there was anything wrong and the answer was always no, just a heavy classload, etc.
Then earlier this month we got into an arguement over the phone. She by now had moved even further away from me, all the way to California, to be with her new boyfriend and to attend grad school there. I told her I had sensed her changing towards me and felt some anger in her I couldnt explain. And then it hit the fan.
I got a hate filled email from her, blaming me for everything she didnt have, telling me I was a bad mother, painting this picture of me I didnt recognize. She resented me. She then listed all of the mistakes I had made after I got custody of her (she was 6 at the time) and told me I was selfish and called me everything but a *****, which she heavily implied I was. I tried to defend myself, and explain that her view of the past had become twisted and I wanted to know why. Her version and mine are very different. She had been a happy, well adjusted child until now. She said any psychotherapist would agree that a 23 yr old's memory was much sharper than the fragmented pieces of a 50 yr old pot smokers and told me I was in denial of the horrible mother I really was. I was devastated. To add insult to injury, she said my version made me look like a saint, and that if being abused for 11 years at the hands of her father "were so terrible, why didnt I leave?"
I cant believe she would say that to me. She has invalidated who I am in that one sentence. I cant believe this is my beloved daughter saying this to me.
Now, I can no longer talk to her, not since she said that. And I dont know what to do. She knew how he was, he had even told her I was dead the 3 years he ran with her and her brothers. Btw, the abuser died during our last few months of custody battles. They have nothing good to say about him now and wont talk about him. He was very cruel and sadistic. And my daughter refuses to listen to anything I or anyone else has to say.
How do I deal with this. I am losing my daughter. My oldest son, who remembers everything so well, truly loves me and thinks his sister has literally gone crazy. He is grateful to me and works hard to have a decent life of his own. He knows how things really were and thinks she's being delusional or brainwashed by someone.

Her anger and skewed perception of the past 23 years, and the denial of what I went through is just too much. I raised her to be independent and aware. (she thinks she raised herself)
Now she is engaged to a man who adores her and Mom is just a pile of......well, you get the idea. I wrote and told her until she wants me in her life again and can find some love and compassion for me, to leave me be. I will not tolerate her disrespect and poisonous accusations. Now that
I have distanced myself, she doesnt show any signs of wanting me in her life. I am so confused. I dont know what happened to us. My light has gone out.
Am I wrong to place this distance between us after the cruel and hurtful things she said? I dont deserve them. I have made mistakes yes, but my love and support was always there for her. But her comment on "if the abuse was so terrible..." Ugh. I literally want to vomit.
I hope what I'm doing is right, because she's the only daughter I will ever have and I love her with all of my being. She had a safe, stable and happy life after her father died. I did the best I could. I made mistakes but nothing like she has accused me of, nor am I the person she insists I am. Its sad to think she doesnt even know me, and worse to know she hates me.

[Sannah]

Mama, I am sorry, all I can say is that she has the right to her "perception". I would think that if you could listen to her then she could work it out. I guess it is too painful to listen to?

Maybe she stuffed all her emotions and everything as a way to protect you and her for all those years and it's finally surfacing? I know when mine surfaced I was angry at the world.

I know how hard it is to be a kid and be mad at the dead, especially when it's your father, even if they were abusive. The guilt was enormous for me. I turned the anger on myself.

It had to have messed her up badly being kidnapped by a sadistic man and told your mom was dead. What else might he have said and done? Only she knows for sure.

Would you (or her) consider going to see a relationships T?

I hope things work out for you both.

[Mama Drama]

Thank you, yes....you are both right. Its so easy to get defensive but she has every right to her feelings and her perceptions. I only regret not knowing then what I know now. I never want her to think she cant open up to me and talk to me. She certainly knows my buzz words though, and being disrespected when you've done your best or being called something you know you are not...it got a big rise out of me. It can be automatic to react first and question later.

We werent mind readers then and we sure arent now. She could have deliberately not told me things thinking she was protecting me, its in her character to always try to be strong and have me be proud of her. I dont like the idea of going to therapy alone, seems we should also do it as a mother-daughter family thing but if it would help her to go and unload this burden and heal, I'm supportive of that. Me, I'm so tired of slaying demons. I have healed during this past 20 years. I've always wanted that for my children too.

Thanks for your replies

[loopy_lou1983]

hi i can see why you are insulted by what your daughter has said. and im sorry you are dealing with this right now.
you acutally sound alot like my mother.
however i know she did the things she denys... i dont know about you.
as for the why did you stay so long comment she made... i have said the same thing to my mother over and over... ok yes she dealt with the beatings but its the kids who have to listen to the screams, see the violence, hear the crying and feel the helplessness. maybe its that mixed with the kidnapping combined that has led to such severe anger.
to be told you were dead would have put her through an enormous variation of feelings and moods and maybe even guilt has she seen a therapist?
as i said before... im sorry you have to deal with this and i dont know what to suggest i just wanted to let you know i am thinking of you
lou x

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by Mama Drama

I never want her to think she cant open up to me and talk to me.

This is the message that you are sending, though.

[Mama Drama]

Originally Posted by Sannah

This is the message that you are sending, though.

I've never sent her that kind of message, not intentionally, if anything I've always urged her to speak to me about what she is feeling and she always has. She says it was her friends and nights of drinking and crying that lead her to "wake up" to what kind of mother I was. I'm supposed to trust that over what actually occured over the past 20 yrs? That's quite a stretch for me, to wave away what I remember and instead adopt this version she has of my role in her life.

There are alot of really bad mothers and fathers in the world. The headlines are full of them everyday. I am not one of those people yet according to my daughter, I am. It's horrifying.

She sent me an email to ask if she could call to wish the family a happy Thanksgiving. I replied that of course she could, and let her know when everyone would be here since we live in different time zones now. She talked to everyone for great lengths of time and her conversations with the rest of the family seemed lively and good natured. When she "dutifully" spoke to me, her tone was indifferent and our conversation was very short. I have lost her, I can feel it in my bones.

I'm sick to death of seeing mothers being blamed for every little thing and given credit for nothing. I'm tired of being her scapegoat. No matter how clearly she thinks she is remembering the past, she doesnt accept that others who were there remember it differently. But I guess we are all crazy and in denial, only her version is acceptable. As an example, how does going to a bar 4 times in 20 years (and with friends for a special occasion) equate to being a "bar hopper"??? When I think of all she has accused me of it just makes me more angry.
She lost her birth father and now she wants to lose her mother too. Then she can wrap herself up in self pity and give herself a nice story to blame her future failures on. Seems to me that is what she is doing. But I'm not playing that game.

[Sannah]

If none of it is true then it shouldn't be all that painful?

[Perna]

It does seem odd that she would suddenly "change" and that your son collaborates the change in her. I would leave her be for a bit and take as much comfort as I could in your son's collaboration. It's very hard, what happened to her between the ages of 3 and 6; my mother did die when I was 3 and my father remarried when I was 5. At first it was great between my stepmother and myself, I needed a mother that badly and just morphed her into being my mother! It took a long time in therapy to straighten everything out for myself.

I wouldn't take her perception personally, it is not your perception or reality and we can't do anything about another's perception. What she believes does not make things either true or false anymore than what you believe and remember does; they are just beliefs, thoughts, and memories about the past and very individual for each person.

You have to support yourself! That's all you have at the moment. She may come around later, it can take many years to sort out one's life.

[Blue93]

Maybe your son can talk to her? I'm sure it must feel really hard, the idea that you are losing your daughter... but if her idea of you is wrong I think in a few years time or so she will see this. Try to not cut off contact totally though so it will be easier for her to contact you when that time comes... Take care,

Blue

[pegasus]

Originally Posted by Mama Drama

Quick background: Married young, met my first husband at 17. Spent 11 years in an extremely abusive marriage in a time when the police couldnt arrest the abuser unless caught in the act. Textbook abuser I guess, I was isolated, degraded, and 18 miles away from anyone hearing my screams. I fought back at first, not understanding the volatile relationship I was in. The beatings got worse, to the point I thought I would surely die "this time". Then something inside me snapped when he turned on our youngest child and only daughter, picking her up and shaking her violently when she touched something of his. I found a way to leave. I was done.

He retaliated by kidnapping the children while I was at work and living in hiding from him, then getting a divorce on the grounds of abandonment without my knowledge. I didnt know where my children were for 3 long, painful years.

Please read through what you have written here and look at it from a childs point of view.

[Mama Drama]

Originally Posted by Sannah

If none of it is true then it shouldn't be all that painful?

Its painful because its not true, if you are referring to her accusations towards me. I love my daughter. If I didn't, I could go on my merry way and not give it a second thought. What she thinks of me is important. You dont stop loving them or being a parent when they turn 18, 30, or 60. The dynamics of the relationship will change but the love doesnt fade or go away. How she perceives me will always be important. I'm the standard to which she will apply her own parenting skills someday, for better or worse.

[Sannah]

So you can't rise above this to save your relationship with your daughter?

[Mama Drama]

Originally Posted by Sannah

So you can't rise above this to save your relationship with your daughter?

Actually, I recently did try to reach out to her and reopen the line of communication. I spoke to her on the phone Thanksgiving day, wished her a happy holiday and also told her how thankfull I am that she is my daughter and that her life was going so well. I got very little response. She said "Happy Thanksgiving" and didnt respond to my words of gratitude. She didnt seem interested in speaking to me. The conversation was very short.

So I feel I did rise above it. I havent heard from her since. Thanks for understanding.

[wanttoheal]

((((((((((((((((((((((((Mama Drama))))))))))))))))))) I'm so sorry that this is happening.

I glanced through some responses, but have not read through them all so forgive me if I am missing something.

I just want to share a bit about my family, if I may.

I have a son, who struggled with a lot of things. While I tried to be a good mom, I was not always what he needed. Later I found out that some abuse stuff had happened that I was not even aware of. He went through a lot of anger for a while and a lot of it was directed at me. He was angry that I did not protect him (even though I didn't know), he was angry that I was not what he needed sometimes, he was angry that he was born, he was angry about everything - it was pretty bad.

I felt like I was a terrible mom, still do at times. While I loved my children more than life itself, my own mental illness and people around me who were not safe combined to make life hell for my children at times. While I never abused my children in the traditional sense, there were times that I just wasn't capable of being what they needed. I wasn't able to protect them because I wasn't aware enough. I protected them from stupid things like bad movies and what I thought was unsafe things. But I didn't protect them from some people that I should have at least had some inkling about but didn't, from people of authority, etc. I just didn't have the awareness.

In time, and through a lot of hell, my son came to terms with things and realized that his anger was not directed at the right person. Through a lot of stuff, he is learning who he was angry at and is learning coping skills to be able to file away things in the right place. It did take a long time for him to get to that point to be able to start working out his stuff. We are able to talk about things now and he knows I did the best I could and I know it oftentimes wasn't great.

Today, we have an amazing relationship. For me and son, it took time, consistency and unconditional love. As we both became more aware of things, we were able to work through them. The one thing my son said was that he never doubted I loved him, even when things were at its worst. He said he knew I was safe and because of that, it allowed him to express everything he needed to, knowing I wouldn't reject him.

I think it is possible for you and your daughter to gain awareness and healing too. Sometimes we have to put ourselves in our children's shoes and just observe. I completely understand why son was so angry at me. While his anger was at times misplaced, it was still understandable. We've both grown a lot in the last few years.

I wish the same for you Mama Drama. Are you currently in therapy? My advice would be that if you are not, to get into therapy and if you are, keep working. Hopefully daughter will do the same. In the meantime, just be there if she calls or reaches out and show her unconditional love and support, no matter what she says or does. As parents, it's one of the best things we can do, in my opinion.

Hang in there. It can get better.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by Mama Drama

Actually, I recently did try to reach out to her and reopen the line of communication. I got very little response.
So I feel I did rise above it.

You want the communication on your terms though............

[debbie_tabor]

[quote=wanttoheal;879882
I just want to share a bit about my family, if I may.]

[Mama Drama]

Thank You Wanttoheal....No, I'm not in therapy. I was raised in the kind of family that didn't believe in therapy, each generation carried the same motto on to the next "you made your bed, you sleep in it". Even throughout the abuse it was expected for me to endure it and "ride it out" because divorce meant failure. I never could understand this sort of thinking and eventually rejected it.
I did seek out therapy half a dozen times in secret, thinking at the time the problem was *me*, as most abusers lead us to believe.
Instead, I was given Haldol by a psychiatrist who thought I was psychotic after telling him what I went through on a daily basis. I had a bad reaction and ended up in the hospital. I was young and didn't question why I was being given this drug, it was only after the Doctor in the ER told me what it was for did I realize, and I never took Haldol again.
Another time I showed up at one of those sliding scale mental health clinics and saw a psychologist. My ex had set my hair on fire and I didnt have the money to have it recut, so it was still singed a few days later and choppy where I had tried to recut it myself. The T didnt notice or comment on my appearance until I asked him. His response was "well, sometimes people will go to extremes to get attention." Needless to say, I was angry, hurt, and never went back to him. When I finally left my husband, I went to 2 meetings run by a women's shelter. As I sat in the group sessions, all I wanted to do was leave...I just wanted to move on and no longer dwell on what I had been through. I wanted to put it all behind me and listening to one of the women there say she loved and missed her husband (although she had endured much of the same as I had) was just too much for me at the time. I had worked up a real hatred of my husband and was ashamed of what I had allowed to happen to me and my children. I felt disgusted that these women were crying about thier abusers. I had no tears left and no patience for any so-called reason why a man would do that to the woman he is supposed to "love". I didn't care to understand, I just wanted it all to go away.
When my children and I all were together again we had a "honeymoon" period that lasted throughout the rest of thier childhood and teen years. They thrived and seemed so happy that I thought therapy would only take away from the new life they were embracing. New home, new friends, happy family holidays and vacations, lots and lots of love. Maybe I should have done more, probably should have, but at the time I think I was in alot of denial and my past experiences with therapy colored my decisions.

Thank you Wanttoheal for all you said, I can see some of your story in pieces of my own and it helps. On a good note, I know my daughter loves me and we will fix this problem. I have faith in love and I wont give up on her, not ever.

[Mama Drama]

Originally Posted by Sannah

You want the communication on your terms though............

You're right. I wont communicate with her from a place of anger. Those are my terms. I will listen, discuss, revisit the past as much as she wants to but I will not fight. People spew things they sometimes dont really mean when they are angry, things that can never be taken back. I dont think we will get anywhere if I let her take out her frustrations on me and not work the problem. I love her and will embrace her feelings and perceptions and strive to reach a common understanding that hopefully we can both accept and then move on from. I have told her this. It's up to her now. Does she want to just attack and get nothing else from it or does she want to heal? This is her choice.

I dont feel "terms" are necessarily bad things. I think sometimes they are necessary if two people really want to mend whats broken.

[Sannah]

Mama, your soul bearing in your last 2 posts is admirable! It's almost hard to argue with your last post. I still think that if you sit calmly with your daughter and let her speak that she will calm down within minutes if you let her know that you are listening, especially to her pain. Maybe she is just angry and not angry with you and she just wants you to hear and acknowledge it. You are her mother. Do angry people trigger you? Is this why you can't hear her out?

[Mama Drama]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Maybe she is just angry and not angry with you and she just wants you to hear and acknowledge it. You are her mother. Do angry people trigger you? Is this why you can't hear her out?

Good question, Sannah. My ex spared no expense or energy in making me feel worthless, stupid and ugly. I was not allowed an opinion or pride in anything I did. So when my daughter invalidated my experience and parenting, it very well could of been "him" I heard. So yes, she may have pushed that button. And in many ways I do have a hard time processing other people's anger, I sometimes (but not always) will take it personally. I've made a lot of progress regarding that though, I stop and tell myself that it's not always about "me". I have to catch myself falling into old patterns and make a concious decision to think logically instead of reacting emotionally.

She is calling me tonight and we will talk. I wish we could discuss it in person but she lives too far away for that. Right now I'm trying to mentally prepare myself for whatever may happen.

[whitetiger87]

Hey,

I can understand why you would be upset that your daughter is acting so strangely. It has to hurt. I know that I struggle with a lot of anger towards my mom and dad and my father is also dead. I try really hard not to blame my mom for everything but it's not easy, i'm 21 and in college as well so i can kind of see where your daughter is coming from. At the same time she needs to be more adult and talk to you as a grown up about whats going on. To just throw all this anger and blame at you w/out giving u any reason is childish. There is nothing that can be done to change the past and she needs to come to terms with what happend but it's not fair to blame u for everything, even if her memories of what happend are so different from yours. It is hard to blame the dead but it's not fair to throw double the anger at the surviving parent! I think that until she comes to a point were she is able to accept the fact that you can't change what happend and be at the point were she wants to move on and have a relationship with you there's nothing you can do. But I think that you also need to keep your anger in check and just try to continue to let her know that when she is done w/all this anger you will be there for her. In the end I think that the strong bond you shared before will prevail, I think she just needs time to work through all the emotions she has, she is going through a lot of change right now.
My thoughts are w/you, I hope it all works out!!

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by Mama Drama

My ex spared no expense or energy in making me feel worthless, stupid and ugly. I was not allowed an opinion or pride in anything I did. So when my daughter invalidated my experience and parenting, it very well could of been "him" I heard. So yes, she may have pushed that button. And in many ways I do have a hard time processing other people's anger, I sometimes (but not always) will take it personally. I've made a lot of progress regarding that though, I stop and tell myself that it's not always about "me". I have to catch myself falling into old patterns and make a concious decision to think logically instead of reacting emotionally.

Good self understanding! Good luck! Let us know how it goes......

[salix11]

Reading through the 3 pages of this, I can see myself in the daughter's view all too well, and I'm hoping Mama Drama that you are not similar to my mother. I could see herself posting something like this, and she never even stood up for me once against my abusive father, and now that I want nothing to do with her at my age of 26, she claims I'm the abusive one and so selfish and wrapped up in self-pity.

This part of what you wrote really irks me. The first few lines sound like a sense of entitlement just because you are a mother - just because you raised someone doesn't mean you are 100% always entitled to no problems from your offspring, especially if you had them in a traumatizing situation when they were very young and couldn't process it well. You made huge mistakes, and you are not taking responsibility for the fact that they permanently affected your daughter, instead you are blaming her for her problems caused by those events. I can understand why she would be so angry at you for that.

And it sounds like you think only your version of the events are correct and hers are totally wrong. That might be true, but it likely is not. She was at a different age than you, and in a different position than you in those events, and she has her own perception because of those things.

And in my own experience, having an abusive birth father and having bad things happen, yes I do want to lose my mother too, since she allowed it to happen in the first place. My own thinking is that, everyone makes mistakes...but some mistakes really are unforgivable, especially if they permanently mess my life up in a very negative way. She probably sees things the way I do - you, as a mother, have a duty to protect your children, and you failed in that duty. Sounds really harsh, I know, but as an adult who was abused by my parents (and sticking around with an abusive partner does not make you innocent while the other person is the only bad person), that's the view some of us take.

And really, sitting here talking crap about her, I can bet you've come right out and said those things in anger at her too, as my own mother has. Self-pity and making up a nice story to blame future failures on? That's incredibly insulting to anyone who has had trauma in their life and is still affected by it. Sounds like blaming the victim. And yes, being kidnapped at such a young age likely DOES affect her future. You're doing nothing but diminishing her reality, which IS ABUSE.

Why do you think you're oh so innocent and entitlement to goddess-like treatment by your daughter whose life you messed up? I'm tired of seeing mothers who stick around with abusers think their children should not at all be affected when they definitely are. That's delusional if you ask me. Let your daughter go and let her live her fragmented life as best she can. If she's at all like me, just having you around is extremely painful.

Originally Posted by Mama Drama

I'm sick to death of seeing mothers being blamed for every little thing and given credit for nothing. I'm tired of being her scapegoat. No matter how clearly she thinks she is remembering the past, she doesnt accept that others who were there remember it differently. But I guess we are all crazy and in denial, only her version is acceptable. As an example, how does going to a bar 4 times in 20 years (and with friends for a special occasion) equate to being a "bar hopper"??? When I think of all she has accused me of it just makes me more angry.
She lost her birth father and now she wants to lose her mother too. Then she can wrap herself up in self pity and give herself a nice story to blame her future failures on. Seems to me that is what she is doing. But I'm not playing that game.

[Mama Drama]

Originally Posted by salix11

And in my own experience, having an abusive birth father and having bad things happen, yes I do want to lose my mother too, since she allowed it to happen in the first place. My own thinking is that, everyone makes mistakes...but some mistakes really are unforgivable, especially if they permanently mess my life up in a very negative way. She probably sees things the way I do - you, as a mother, have a duty to protect your children, and you failed in that duty.

Why do you think you're oh so innocent and entitlement to goddess-like treatment by your daughter whose life you messed up? I'm tired of seeing mothers who stick around with abusers think their children should not at all be affected when they definitely are. That's delusional if you ask me. Let your daughter go and let her live her fragmented life as best she can. If she's at all like me, just having you around is extremely painful.

I hear alot of pain in your words Salix, and I'm sorry that you had an abusive childhood.
I do not appreciate your anger towards me but I also understand it. Your parents disappointed you miserably. I've always tried to be a good mother and I love my kids with all of my being. I left the abuser to protect them. Yes, they had 3 years of hell at a young age, but I also gave them 20+ years after that of a loving, stable, safe home and family. Thier stepfather (who has always loved them as his own) and I did everything we possibly knew how to create an environment where they could thrive. Yes, I do think that should account for something. And my children love him for being the father he was to them.

I have messed up my daughter's life? I think it would have been much more messed up if I had stayed with her birth father. I doubt very much she would have gone to law school or had the many successes she's already had in life, including a good man who she's going to marry next year and good friends who adore her. Her life would have been very different if I had not left. I didn't want my life for her, I wanted her to have the choices I didnt so she could have the life she wants. And she does.

Nobody goes into a marriage or relationship thinking they are going to be beaten. You expect to be happy and loved for the rest of your life. When it begins to become something else, especially if you have a young family, you try to fix it and get your fairytale back. There are alot of things going on in an abusive marriage, its not all black and white.

The world is not a perfect place. There are no perfect parents or perfect children. You do the best you can with what you have at the time you have it. That's it. Yes it might not be good enough for someone else and you might fail sometimes. But if you've done your best, what more can anyone ask of you?
I think there comes a time when even the abused must forgive the abuser. I forgave my ex, but it took many years to get there. I forgave him because I needed to forgive myself and begin the long journey of healing. Forgiving is not the same as saying "its ok what you did", because clearly it's not. Its accepting that we are all wounded, broken, hurting (yes, even the abuser)...and then moving past it. We dont focus on ourselves when we are busy nurturing grudges against others.

I dont know your whole story or what your mother is like. But I do hope that someday you can forgive her even if you cant love her. You are still very young and have alot of mistakes to make ahead of you. Some day you too will want to be forgiven.