Question about mindfulness for emotions

OK I have a question about mindfulness. Where you put in a bit of distance and are an observer and you are supposed to just let the undesirable feelings, emotions, emotional thoughts pass.

So, if I try to just let the emotions pass instead of trying to shut them down, dismiss them, or actively push them away, especially when they have already became too strong - then what exactly should I do?

Do I just observe from a large distance, or do I actively try to tune into the emotional state actively? Do I try to maintain and feel the emotional state as long as I can until I'm drained of its energy?

Also please note that the thing about letting the emotions "pass" is unclear to me because I do not experience my emotions as waves. They are either "on" or "off". "On" while I try to pay attention and while I'm able to have emotional energy. "Off" otherwise. No waves. Does that matter for mindfulness?

One last question. The emotional thoughts linked with these undesirable emotions, feelings, if the thoughts themselves are so intense and negative that you find it hard to just observe and accept them, what do you do? Can there be a way for you to just see them as just your feelings, you feeling these feelings, emotions and thoughts, rather than them being about you or about anyone else or any situation?

I guess the best way I have of explaining this is like watching your emotions pass as if they're cars on a highway. Not approaching the cars on the highway, but just letting them go by.

I feel like this can work during meditation. During mindfulness (I make the distinction between meditation and mindfulness where meditation is the formal practice and mindfulness is the everyday awareness you get from meditation), I like to just think I have distance from my emotions, and I don't have to give into them. It's harder than it sounds.

I think the really hard part is just letting those tough emotions "go". But it can take years, honestly, for that to happen. I like to think mindfulness and meditation are just a process towards getting healthier.

Hope that helps.

Thanks much for the answer.

When you let your difficult emotions go, do you also let the emotional thoughts, beliefs linked to them go somehow?

What is it like to give into the emotions? For me it would be giving into them, in a sense, if I tried to shut them down because of the intensity and negativity of them or linked emotional thoughts/beliefs. And just to shut them down, I can get in my own way too much.

Using your analogy of watching cars, do you also observe in detail what colour or model the cars are or what speed they are going at, etc?

Have you seen all this work for emotions with an intensity of 10/8, 10/9 or even 10/10?

Do you know of any other mindfulness techniques that address dealing with such difficult emotions?

(Anyone else can answer these questions too of course)

I have use the car/ highway analogy. Here's how I do it: I imagine that I'm standing on one of those remote highway overpasses- nothing much around, but I can look down at the cars. I don't try to focus in on details, just let whatever come. Temperature? The feel of sun or rain? Sound of the cars? Smell? Just whatever. Think of it as more observing and less analyzing.

Another favorite is imagining a big old monster- like one from a children's book, so not very threatening. You invite it to sit next to you and acknowledge it's there, but you don't give it attention or feed it. You just accept it's presence.

My all time go-to is to imagine that I'm floating in an inner tube down a gentle river. Just ride it out and enjoy the floating sensation as best you can.

In earlier days of doing things like this, I found it helpful to say to myself "what if or what is?" To distinguish whether something was a what if in my head or something that really was.

It's interesting you mention being on or off with the emotions. I have never thought much about it, but my anxiety can drag and then just suddenly seem "off" or gone. Maybe that's not unusual, given how intense the experience can feel?

Hope you are doing okay today.

Thanks much for your response too. Do you do this imagination technique for emotions with an intensity of 10/8, 10/9 or 10/10 too? I don't experience such strong emotions as floating or light or gentle, but more like them standing in my way as a big obstacle.

With the monster analogy, and with checking if it's in your head or in reality, it sounds like the method requires previous understanding of the particular emotion not really being real, i.e. requiring previous analysis of the current or past situation to understand the emotion to ensure enough intellectual control over it like that?

My other interpretation of what you could've possibly meant is that you developed a sense of perceiving if it's real or not real, somehow....?

As far as my feelings being seemingly on/off, this is true whether they are intense or less intense emotional states. I seem to perceive the emotions in a particular moment or for a short time in the here and now, and then they are "off", and even if they come back later, it's "off" between these moments.

PS: With those intense ones, I can't go ahead, so I stop and they go away, are "off", but if I was to try to go ahead again, they are back "on". And it requires a lot of energy and discipline each time to try and go ahead in the face of such intensity. Including physical energy, a lot of that is needed, my stomach muscles can get literally sore from the effort etc.

Hmm, those are all good points... I did cbt for very intense anxiety starting about 13 years ago. I used books by a doctor named Claire Weekes. Her work was really helpful to me because she explained a lot of the nuts and bolts of what was going on in my mind and body when I felt anxiety.

You know, it's weird, I don't think I really named the emotions at the time, it was more of just knowing I felt terrible and learning how to relax through it- Dr. Weekes did a good job of explaining that. The funny thing is that the things I'm dealing with now involve me not being able to name emotions... So go figure.... I've been using info from codependent no more where emotions are lumped under a basic four- mad, sad, glad or scared, as a way to begin figuring that out.

As far as the what is versus what if, I worried a lot about things that might happen. So let's say that I was worried about an appliance breaking and not being able to afford to repair or replace it, I could get very upset about that and even a little obsessive. But the appliance wasn't broken that was a what if. No matter what happened I wouldn't have to deal with that until it was a what is. Does that make any sense? Sorry if that's a lame example.

I know from experience that these things are a lot easier said than done. What I learned from Dr Weekes was to use a technique where you don't fight instead you give into the anxiety and let it run its course. As strange as it sounds once you let the anxiety run its course you've sort of taught yourself how to process it. And yes you have to do it many many times but it gets better over time. I really recommend any of her books if you can get your hands on them. Just understanding the medical explanation of what my brain and body were doing when I felt this way made a huge difference.

Thanks much for the recommendation, I've downloaded her book and skimmed it.

It turns out I do have the complicated form of the problem she discusses in the book but I've figured out most of that on my own by now. I just refer to it as some kind of stress/adjustment disorder, except the things I've had to try and adjust to are things most people do not have to deal with so it's hardly a true disorder.

Her book does talk about a version of mindfulness for sure. As far as that, I'll just add this because I'm interested if anyone relates, so her mindfulness mantra is: "face, accept, float, let time pass". And I think my version of acceptance isn't compatible with floating, but is just openness mixed with a sense of control to hold the emotion while it's "on" or move it out of the way so I can keep doing things, but a 10/9 intense emotion is too big for that.

I am not entirely sure anyhow what kind of acceptance this is in any kind of mindfulness. Because for me I could see it as totally soft acceptance making me more sensitive, or it could be just openness where I keep toughness too. And I'm only able to do anything with the latter version.

Anyway, with intense emotions with an intensity over 10/8, I get as far as "face". And "accept" for a second but then I am exhausted from the intensity. Again, my default is, "face", "be open to feeling it", "control". No floating or letting things pass

Sounds like alexithymia if you want to look it up. You could also look at emotion wheels if you haven't yet. Especially those ones where they have basic emotions in the middle of the circle, and then other more nuanced emotional states arranged next to them in the outer parts.

Yeah it makes total sense. I do think it helps with emotional control and regulation, being able to see what's realistic. When I can see what the emotional state is about, what it is a reaction to, it increases my sense of control over it. The intense ones I'm referring to, I often don't know what they are about, they are too much in a vacuum, and that's part of the problem. And right, I can't even name them, not even as a basic emotion like the ones you listed. Usually if I identify the reaction, and what it is a reaction to, I already have it decreased in intensity to 10/8 or less, and I can deal with a 10/7 just fine, or even 10/8 as long as it's not going on too long. That is, I've contained the emotional state enough then.

Etceteral, it sounds like you've been finding your way and are maybe onto something that works for you?

If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been working at mindfulness or acceptance? One of the biggest things that I took from Dr Weekes work was that nothing is going to change quickly. She says that you will wake up months or even years from now and realize that it's changed. That helped me a lot, knowing that it was going to take enough time that I might not even be aware of the changes. In my case, that was true, but of course as we all know, everyone's situation is different.

After I did Dr. Weekes recommendations for a number of years, I got to the point that I could recognize and deactivate intense anxiety in a matter of seconds- it was great. Then my DH got sick (mental? physical? Don't know and he's not into self-improvement) and I lost myself trying to help him. That's where I lost emotions. I will look up the information you recommended.

But, how her method worked for me was going into the emotion no matter how scary it seemed. That's the floating. After a while, my brain would kind of go "oh, there's nothing here, just noise, we don't need to react to that" and over time I desensitized to it. It was very scary sitting with it. At the beginning, there were days I would lie on the floor for four hours and felt paralyzed and miserable just accepting the sensations that came and not fighting them. It sucked, but it did work for me. Just reading her explanations of things that are normal in the process, helped me get through it. But again, one size doesn't fit all, but maybe theres a bit in her book that can help you move in a good direction, esp. since you seem to already be doing something similar.

Hope you're having a decent day.

Thanks for the optimism lol. I'm trying to find my way yeah but.....So you asked about how long I've been working at mindfulness and acceptance, and my answer is I've tried to look at it several times over the years but I always get hung up on how to try and apply it in the way it's described (I've seen several ways of describing it). The openness thing I mentioned is just how I go about facing and accepting emotional things by default, but I have a big problem with being able to get that far when it comes to these very intense ones.

True, it's one of the things that's helped me keep going.

That's awesome.

I lost emotions too after a bad problem in my life, so I understand I think. What I'm actually trying to do is in part regaining lost emotions. So they are going to be intense naturally, I guess.

Thanks a lot for these specifics, it totally helps knowing exactly just how hard this can be (initially), and how that can be normal....

Wow so 4 hours of lying on the floor, that does sound hard. Can I ask how you started out? Was it like you didn't have a problem going into it but then it was long hours of suffering like that while staying with the emotions? Or did you first have a problem going into it in the first place? How long did it take before you didn't need 4 hours anymore? Did you have strongly negative thoughts and beliefs coming up with the emotional sensations?

I was thinking more about this floating thing. I really cannot imagine myself floating about emotions, I think when I feel them I often am looking at them from the "outside", like they are in a container that I've put them into. Inside that container they can do whatever. That's where I am in control of my emotions.

With intense enough (not extremely intense though) emotions I can of course sometimes feel like I am living inside them and acting on them. I can enjoy that or I can just be too upset or something. But with extremely intense emotions is when I have a problem even just approaching them. Approaching and facing them even for just one second is hard. Let alone placing them in that neat container.

So that's why I'm asking if approaching them or facing and going into them was hard for you or just staying with them was hard. Weekes' book says if you just tense up trying to get away from the feelings within you that'll be the problem. For sure it makes me not able to approach the feelings.

Actually quoting from her book: "First, look at yourself and notice how you are sitting in your chair. I have no doubt that you are tensely shrinking from the feelings within you and yet, at the same time, are ready to “listen in” in apprehension."

I didn't understand the listening in part. Do you know what is meant by that?

Thanks much if you can answer some of these questions.

Hi Etceteral. How are you doing today?

I'll share whatever I can in hopes some of it might help...

Let's see...

It's interesting, in thinking back to when I first realized I had significant issues and needed to do some kind of therapy, I couldn't name what was going on. It's been a number of years now, so it's taking a bit to recall. Anyway... things got to their worst when I realized I was starting to have trouble leaving home- agoraphobia. Up until that point I didn't correlate the feelings I was having to being panic attacks and level 10 anxiety. It was only after watching someone's YouTube videos about his experiences with panic attacks and agoraphobia, that I realized I WAS actually having panic attacks. It seems like that would be obvious, but it's apparently not. Up until doing CBT, I had always been a little bit of a high strung person. Anyhow, are you sure those super intense emotions that you can't name aren't panic attacks? Obviously I wouldn't know, but my experience is that you kind of blank out in a panic attack situation- you can't think. It's that fight or flight thing. Being able to name it as that for the first time was hard, but also gave a foundation.

I've recently started codependency work, realizing how much DH's undefined mental situation and behavior has affected me. I've had so many headaches and awful feelings. The first week I constantly felt like one of those fireworks that just spins around violently and shoots sparks in all directions. It was awful. In the moment it feels like it will never go away, but even then I sort of figured this was probably junk that's been repressed for the last few years. It seems to have burned itself out at this point. That doesn't mean it won't come back next week, but hey... But absolutely, I agree with that assessment of yours regarding the feelings we haven't been feeling.

I like your bottle imagery. That seems very much in the line of mindfulness to me. You are sort of putting them there and accepting those that are at a manageable level.

Now, for those more specific questions. I was basically waking up with severe anxiety/panic attacks every morning. I'd force through the day as best as I could, but not really moving forward as far as the anxiety was concerned. Then I came across one of Dr. Weekes books and read it voraciously. Then I started to apply her techniques- which is when I tried to give into it and float (i.e. lying on the floor).

Before that, usually when the feelings came up, instead of sitting with them, I was really good at distracting myself. So I'd go find some problem to work on, but the feeling wouldn't go away so much as I just compartmentalized it for later, and they would be back in full force the following morning.

The lying on the floor for 4 hours, accepting the feelings, felt like it lasted forever, but that part was really only about 2 weeks. After that, the time got shorter and shorter, though sometimes there would be a bad day and a setback.

As far as thoughts, YES, that was probably one of my biggest problems was having obsessive thoughts and fears that wouldn't go away. I was very keyed up- very hyper vigilant. Being new here, I don't know how the trigger thing works- not just the blanking out, but also when to use it, so I'll be a little more vague here, but like... we live on a wide street with trees in front of the house, so people will often pull over in front of our house to make phone calls. Any truck that was parked out there would spark that fear and paranoia and then it would be hard to me to calm it down the rest of the day. Just the scary thoughts of "who is that person? what are they doing out there?" Then it might go into me being fearful that they were reporting a property violation- which seems weird because I couldn't actually come up with anything that would be a violation- it was just an irrational fear. Sometimes I'd latch onto awful news story and just couldn't shake them from my head. Anyhow, that kind of stuff. And it calmed down with Dr. Weekes method, but again... time.

When it comes to facing and floating, I guess the way I sort of looked at it was to say "okay, this is just a feeling, but it's not going to kill me, so come beat me up." And the four hours of lying on the floor was just imagine myself relaxing as best as I could and taking the emotional hits from the intense feelings that came. Like maybe imagine being a rag doll and the intense feelings keep smacking you, but since you're a rag doll, you can just kind of flop around and not get hurt. It's kind of hard to explain- I think Dr. W. does a much better job.

My take on the 'listening in' part is where you are terrified of something, but then giving it your attention at the same time. So in that example of a worker stopping his truck in front of the house, first I am thinking "Oh no! Who is this and what do they want?" So I'm scared and trying to mentally hide from it, but then at the same time I'm coming up with all these horrible what-if scenarios about why the guy could be there- so I'm listening and feeding the fears. Does that make sense. Not sure if that's what she meant exactly, just my take.

Sorry this got really long and wordy/ I hope you made it through and maybe got something out of it.

Hey, thanks much for giving so much detail about your experiences. That always helps. I am glad you got past all the panic attacks and agoraphobia. And good luck with the new emotional work you are doing now.

I'll write a lot too now lol, you don't need to respond to all of it!, I just want to get it out of my head because you helped me think about it.

And glad you found the container description interesting, and I like your image too about the fireworks , I do sometimes try to see/observe stuff in my mind, so yeah I see how it would be a bit of mindfulness.

I just have one last specific question. The irrational obsessive thoughts, when you did the method, did they just go away when you were sitting with the feelings, lying down on the floor and whatnot? Nothing else was needed for that? Did you need any mental processing or did you just simply have to keep doing that, being with the feelings?

***

So to answer your post... You asked if maybe my intense feelings are panic attacks. I am not sure, as I don't have bodily symptoms like breathing trouble or heart racing. When I took Xanax to be able to sleep under high stress and didn't like side effects and decided to withdraw from it a bit too quickly, that is when I had a LSA for 1-2 days. LSA = limited symptom panic attack, with fewer symptoms than a full panic attack. I would say Xanax withdrawal did intensify some of the very unpleasant feelings and sensations and I had more intense emotions too.

So I don't know if it's panic, I just have the intense emotion(s) for a second before I back away from them. Or other unpleasant sensations. I'm sure labelling or otherwise identifying them would be a big step for me though. (Other than, "distress", "pain" or "terror" or "doom", sometimes I can identify those.) Or at least somehow being able to see that these are just whatever emotions that were shut down before (like they were for you) and that they don't really matter. I'm sure if I could convince myself about that, that would help with decreasing their intensity. I don't know if I need more mental processing before I could see it that way even if this is the truth.

The biggest problem for me with all that is that I can't even distract myself with something useful, some problem to take care of or anything. It'll be too much emotion and too much pain so I put off a lot of tasks because of that actually.

So to be able to start doing all these tasks, I just get obsessive trying to figure out what's inside me that makes me have these intense emotions. I journal a lot for that reason. I would say I've been dealing with this for years now and it's got a bit better, maybe thanks to the journalling and psychoeducation I received/sought out, I don't know. But it's still interfering with my days. And medication did nothing either.

So I'll see if I can try getting into the emotions more, I think I'm just concerned about having to tolerate emotional thoughts coming up if I went into feeling all this stuff. I get it that I could somehow just let those thoughts be but it's kind of hard if they are like so strong as to be really "loud" (not literally loud).

I know you said for you what worked was lying down and enduring the feelings that way, but I think the only way for me to get into these emotions if I keep active, and not shut down, so like I'm going to try and focus on how I don't have to do tasks or work so fast, because it's already its own big job and effort if I have to keep tolerating these emotions while keeping active with work and other tasks to be done. I think this thought helps. So I've already tried to do work last evening with this attitude after reading your earlier post and I kind of liked it even if it was very painful too.

You described some of your earlier anxious thoughts and that was interesting too. Because those strongly emotional thoughts, when they do come out, they are just as irrational. They may not always be about anxious what if's about whether x will happen, but they are similarly irrational. I've been trying to practice noticing that quality about them and telling myself with confidence that no matter how loud or extremely convincing these emotional thoughts try to be, it's still all bull****. It's helped a bit too already, but I did have to learn to notice that quality first. Kind of like you get the feeling that they are absurd, and too strongly negative so it cannot be real. Make any sense?

Where you mention that these feelings and sensations won't kill you so you welcome them to beat you up.... I think I totally understand what you mean, but for me I have this problem that some of the sensations are so intense that they are half numbed out, and I have a problem with recognising them as of emotional origin at all. The intense emotions are actually easier for me than these half numbed out sensations, because actual emotions are less unpleasant to me. When they are not numbed out then I am fine and feel grounded with the sensations, then my only problem is if they are too intense/strong.

But the half numbed out sensations, they are actually scary because of how I have trouble reading the sensations themselves. I'm observing there too over time how some of them are fluctuating, randomly on/off or showing up in different, random places, so they can't be physical problems. I do get bad thoughts lol, about them possibly being physical even if I know some of these thoughts are irrational. Anyway where I do have the biggest problem is when they feel extremely unpleasant like it's a numbed out feeling of searing or sharp pain or stuff like that. That's when I really really don't like the stuff. And maybe it is not sharp or other pain and maybe I just have trouble recognising the sensation because of the numbing, I don't know. Or maybe it is actually pain. God only knows.

And I recently noticed if I can accept some emotional feeling I'm trying to block out so hard, then (some of) these sensations can start flowing and become actual sensation and not so numbed out and then it doesn't feel like pain so much, and not so extremely unpleasant, much more tolerable. But I have to get realllly lucky to find such feelings to accept. This is a long story, I had some bad things happen to me, and some of these feelings get intrusive even if other people would naturally find them enjoyable.

(When I mean they get flowing I mean that they are no longer blocked so they are able to come and go away, it's hard to explain, but when they are blocked and get in my way, that's when it's a problem for me. When they are flowing and not blocked, I still just see glimpses on/off but I can see that they are not blocked or cause too much pain.)

I don't know if that made sense. Maybe you or someone else can comment on it, or maybe the descriptions and observations are useful to someone else.

I totally understood your rag doll description and it was interesting. I think even if I get as far as you with staying with the feelings (while doing something else, I think just lying down or sitting passively wouldn't have these emotions moving enough, just how I seem to work), I'll probably imagine it like I'm standing my ground and the emotions just being around or trying to attack me and me having to hold them at least a little. That's how I've tried it a little bit before. I do seem to need to feel that I remain in control and active. With the numbed sensations I don't know what I can do, though. For now, those are too blocked to get them going.

As for listening in, thanks, I think I understand that too, I think I'm more like I just totally avoid. That's where I recognise the tension the book talked about, trying to get away from the emotions and trying to keep them under control to the extreme. But for me the tension is entirely about avoiding, it seems. A lot of this stuff is extremely blocked out for me like I said.

It was encouraging that for you it was only 2 weeks for the worst part. And I do have free hours in my days to spend on this. If I manage to practice all this while doing some task, I hope it won't take me too long either to have all the horribly strong emotions and sensations reduced to a tolerable level. And reducing their unpleasant quality too, I guess.

Just feeling like, I don't know how I'll be able to find and accept some feelings inside that make those numbed out sensations less numbed, more readable as "normal" sensations, and more naturally flowing. I don't know how I'll get them going and not blocked at all. They are a bit better since I stopped Xanax though, while doing Xanax withdrawal that made them worse for sure. No longer need Xanax anyway as I dropped & solved some of the stress too, thank god.

All in all... yeah I think you are right that everyone is different and that I have to work out my own approach with how I can actually spend time with emotions. Keeping active and feeling in control does seem to allow them to come up more so I can just decide to give more space to them while doing tasks, like try to slow down and relax a bit while working, doing tasks, so that'll be part of my approach.

Hi Etcetera1. Gotta tell you, I am on my big screen today and just realized that was a number and not the letter "l" at the end of your name. Boy do I feel dumb

Actually.... regarding quieting down the unsettling thoughts, I used the cognitive behavioral technique of literally stopping them when I recognized they were there. I'd actually say "stop" out loud to myself and move thoughts away from it. On those early, long days, I probably said "stop" to myself a thousand times a day. No joke. Like the emotions/anxiety, that settled down after a few weeks too.

It's funny because when you go into these things, you feel like you are starting something that will never stop, but the reality is that it does. That's why it's so hard to go through the process. I could imagine myself spending the rest of my life saying "Stop" thousands of time a day in response to crappy thoughts. But the opposite is true, you build new paths of thinking.

Another thing that helped me a lot was DBT- have you ever heard of that? it's... dialectic behavioral therapy (sp?). There is a site with the name DBT selfhelp . com. It has some information you might find interesting... or not. The stuff about radical acceptance and turning the mind was probably the most helpful to me.

You know, you might have touched on this earlier, but maybe those numb feelings are that way for a reason? Don't we tend to feel and remember things when it's the appropriate time? Maybe you don't have to try to name them or go at them just yet? Maybe they will come to you when you and they are ready? I don't know, just a thought.

You should definitely approach your emotions in the way that feels right and productive for you. One thing I'll note is that when I first started doing the lying on the floor, I had a toddler who wouldn't quit and a DH who was starting to experience some issues (but I didn't see it very clearly at the time). I was literally exhausted. Dr. W talks a lot about people suffering exhaustion and not realizing it- which can translate into your head playing a lot of tricks on you. Resting can make a big difference for some people, but then she also talks about conditions like depression and that any type of task, no matter how small, is important to work through that.

Any way, I hope today is a good day for you.

Haha no problem. I didn't notice the typo.

Thanks much for your description of the details of your experiences. It helps a lot to know it can be like that. If you told yourself "stop" like that, did it not intensify your emotions for a short time? For me it seems to, but maybe that's just temporary too.

I've heard of it, yeah. Maybe I didn't look closely enough at DBT, but I kind of feel like it's for people with a personality that's the polar opposite of me. I.e. people who naturally have stronger emotions than most people, and don't avoid them and even like to indulge them and will act on them. Like, it talks about things like how to stop acting on urges, and I just don't have that kind of problem. The radical acceptance part would be nice, in terms of not avoiding emotions so much, I guess. Btw, sorry, I didn't get this, what do you mean by turning the mind?

That makes sense too and I like your take. I just hope it won't take several more years for them lol

Yeah, it's kind of complex. Yes I've had the exhaustion into numbness where I didn't even have the capacity anymore to even feel and recognise that I was exhausted. It's not like that anymore, thank god. Anyway yeah, I always had the feeling that I can't just fully shut down as that wouldn't really have been true rest. I've always tried to keep active as much as I could. It's felt a lot like, if I don't keep going then I'll shut down forever. That could've been an irrational concern but it's just how it felt before. I no longer have that either, so it would be nice to be able to relax a bit lol. I'm trying.... I also keep forgetting relaxing and slowing down with the work, have to practice that too. But it's helped me feel better about starting work so that's progress. I hope I can keep that progress and practice slowing down too. Thanks again.

I don't know that much about DBT. It's a form of CBT from what I can tell- learning new ways to think that work, versus old ways that don't. That stuff I mentioned before was something I stumbled on that helped me a lot at that time. Turning the mind just means redirecting thought processes from where you don't want them to where you do. That site I mentioned has a bit on mindfulness as well, if you're interested.

Having a bit of a rough start to the day today, so will leave it at that, but keep on keeping on. That's what I plan to do.

Thanks much once more, I will check out the site too. I hope your day has been better after the rough start.

For me, I didn't have to do anything (rest day), instead I apparently had time to really face how I've shut down not just negative feelings but positive ones and those shut down positive feelings somehow are connected to those very bad sensations. I don't know if that made sense.... maybe they come coupled with negative feelings, as they are very undesirable feelings for me, I don't know how else I'd explain it. So I'm practicing feeling all of it, I guess, it's very hard of course.

I'll keep up with it as much as I can. And yeah, you keep going too!

Hi again

Well, my day went down the toilet yesterday, but that's for another thread on another forum, probably later this week. But today is a new day....

What you said about shutting down even positive emotions makes a lot of sense, believe it or not. I have very similar reactions and have come to learn that it's pretty common.

I've been watching videos on YouTube by a man who counsels people in childhood trauma. In one of his videos he summed up one of the possible reasons as being along the lines of "you're so use to good feelings not lasting and bad feelings persisting, that you don't really want to invest in the good ones. They're gone way too fast.

Not sure if this will be relatable, but a year or two after I started doing CBT for anxiety, I was feeling so good. I literally bounced out of the desk chair. I felt light and awesome. Five steps from the desk, I sat down on the floor and started crying. The sensation was so awful. Later, I came to the sad realization that most of my childhood, someone would covertly or overtly destroy any good mood I experienced. I literally could not experience happiness because of the conditioned response of knowing that something would destroy it soon. It was better to just not go there.

In the last ten years, my DH has developed some issues (poss bipolar) that have me silently labelling him "joy killer." Whether he's up or down, it's only a matter of time until he can put a damper on any situation. Honestly, I don't think he's doing it intentionally, but the aftermath is the same.

I have had to force myself to enjoy myself, and it usually means I do it while alone, to make sure no one else influences it. It sometimes comes with a lot of guilt attached, after all, I've learned it's not ok for me to feel happy. Some of the things I'll do are things like blow off housework and just watch a movie, or I might go to the store and pick up some premium ice cream or a single piece of cheesecake. No one else knows about these indulgences, and I feel guilty as heck while doing them, but I also remind myself to just sit in the moment and enjoy it- that we do deserve things that bring us pleasure!

I gotta get rolling on Saturday, but see you again soon.

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Originally Posted by Etcetera1 OK I have a question about mindfulness. Where you put in a bit of distance and are an observer and you are supposed to just let the undesirable feelings, emotions, emotional thoughts pass. So, if I try to just let the emotions pass instead of trying to shut them down, dismiss them, or actively push them away, especially when they have already became too strong - then what exactly should I do? Do I just observe from a large distance, or do I actively try to tune into the emotional state actively? Do I try to maintain and feel the emotional state as long as I can until I'm drained of its energy? Also please note that the thing about letting the emotions "pass" is unclear to me because I do not experience my emotions as waves. They are either "on" or "off". "On" while I try to pay attention and while I'm able to have emotional energy. "Off" otherwise. No waves. Does that matter for mindfulness? One last question. The emotional thoughts linked with these undesirable emotions, feelings, if the thoughts themselves are so intense and negative that you find it hard to just observe and accept them, what do you do? Can there be a way for you to just see them as just your feelings, you feeling these feelings, emotions and thoughts, rather than them being about you or about anyone else or any situation?

From personal experience & also having had DBT for years with my wonderful T.....here is what I do:

When I get emotions I don't desire, I realize that they upset the peace & balance that is normal in my life now. At that time, rather than just let them pass, I analyze the cause & I log it in my mind. Then I let go of the emotion. If it comes up again & I analyze it to be the same cause, then I analyze what ACTION I need to take to stop the situation from happening again. Sometimes I give it more times than others. There is ALWAYS an underlying cause to these negative emotions especially if they keep reoccurring based on the same cause. Taking action replaces the negative emotion though there may be anxiety involved it taking action, it is GOOD ANXIETY, not bad anxiety & is a normal part of taking action in protecting yourself. Residual anxiety may exist for awhile after taking action & the emotion you allowed to "pass" should be resolved by the action. We have to be mindful because sometimes allowing an emotion to "pass" is ignoring a problem. Emotions & anxiety are in us for a reason & that is usually as an indication that a problem exists we need to resolve. Sometimes the resolution does take time & observation & mindfulness as to the best way to handle it.....that is where the radical acceptance comes in....we accept that we feel the emotion is something being felt while we work on resolving the issue causing it.

Thanks for the explanations again. When I was mentioning positive emotions I didn't mean happiness, but it's rather private stuff so I can't talk about it on here (I don't talk about it at all to a living soul).

'Indulgences' are actually just fine I just did not have the time or energy for them in recent years. But yeah, don't feel guilty about them. What's the point to life otherwise : p

Thanks. Yeah, that's how I always was, I always quickly analysed the feeling and made an action plan or took action right away, or I plain dismissed the emotion/feeling if I found it of no consequence.... I needed no DBT for doing so. But now these problematic emotions are really intense and are usually in a vacuum so I can't analyse them. Vacuum means that I don't have any thought or image or anything specific linked to the intense emotions. It's all just in a vacuum and it wants to get in the way of taking action. And I don't even recognise what they are. Sometimes I recognise them as pain or doom or terror, but often I don't recognise them at all. And they don't flow, they are not waves but are "sticky" instead so they don't get out of the way or "pass" easily.

What I'm trying to do now is keep as active as I can but also slow down and relax while doing things/tasks, to give space to these really bad intense emotions. Rather than totally shut down and avoid them (and thus put off tasks while avoiding the emotions) That's helped a bit so far.

I totally agree btw, when I first read about letting all emotions just pass, I instantly thought of, doesn't that mean we fail to resolve actual issues. I guess you are supposed to let only those emotions pass that are past their "expiry date" and have no meaning or useful information in them anymore.

I think I sort of understand where you're coming from, in which case, my last post kind of wandered off into the neighbor's yard . Sorry about that.

Ohh don't worry about that

Thanks once more for all this convo, I'll try to practice the stuff, if I think of anything new or have some update on things that could be useful to others, I'll bump this thread.

And of course if anyone else has anything to add, that's fine too, personal experiences are always welcome too.

Thanks for posting this thread, I found it really helpful.

Sorry I'm a little late to this thread.
When you're observing (also called "witnessing"), the idea is to just observe. Observe yourself doing (and not doing) exactly whatever you'd be doing (and not doing) anyway, if you weren't observing.

That you do or don't experience emotions as waves is already an observation.

When you see that an emotion (or a thought, or anything else) is present, notice that it's present and exactly what you're aware of about it. When you call it "on", notice that you're having a thought called "it's on." When you see that an emotion (or whatever) isn't present, notice that you're having a thought called, maybe, "That's funny, it was there a minute ago!" (or yesterday, or last week)

You might go, "Right now I'm feeling such-and such emotion; and I'm having a thought called 'I shouldn't be feeling such-and-such emotion', and another thought called 'It's my job to make it stop!', and another thought called 'What kind of person would allow themselves to feel an emotion like that?', and another thought called 'This is way, way too intense for me', and another called 'I'm trying to stop but it's not working'..." <--- Notice that, too, if and when it happens to come up for you -- and then notice what else, and what else, and what else...

And eventually you'd notice that you kept on going whatever way you were going until you noticed yourself going some other way instead. And feeling whatever way you were feeling until you noticed yourself feeling some other way instead (or maybe in addition).

By the way, the point of observing what you're feeling, thinking, etc, is not to make those feelings and thoughts go away or to change them in any way. It's to simply notice them, acknowledge them, and let them be exactly the way they are, for exactly as long as they are -- and then to see what comes next. If you find yourself "trying to maintain and feel the emotional state as long as you can", you might observe that you're having thoughts called "I'm trying to maintain and feel such-and-such emotional state..." and "I'm supposed to eventually feel drained of its energy." How you'll eventually feel, you'll find out only by noticing how you do feel at the time.

Ah no worries and thanks much. I think this makes sense, yeah so I'm not to try and change anything at all, it's pure observation, no pressure that I should try to feel "more" to see more of the feeling or emotion than what will show naturally by default.

Yeah, sometimes I get mental observations or notes spontaneously like that and it can help sometimes.

OK, yeah, I think noticing the emotion works okay. I somehow instinctively don't like the idea of noticing the thought that "it's on", etc. It makes me feel like if I tried to do this, it would be like, it would feel like a "schizoid" experience. If that makes sense. Like, too detached from my own self. Maybe I got the idea wrong here, so feel free to clarify if you meant it in a different way.

Also, if I want to take that thought further, it feels like quite some emotions are already kindof naturally detached from what I experience as my self or my agency by default, I mean they are of course my own emotions but there is always a distance from them. But with thoughts that are my conclusions from stuff, from doing mentally "effortful" analysis, I don't want to have that much distance or non-attachment.

The one thing I can do with my thoughts is that I like evaluating them further if I think I need to change something. When I evaluate or re-evaluate them, I do think there is a little distance from them but not too much, just so that I'm not too attached to them, and then of course it can mean I get new conclusions etc. Or I can see that the evaluation shows that I don't need to change the conclusions for the time being.

But when it comes to those emotionally really charged thoughts, that are not a result of deliberate analysis, that's where I get a problem....Because I can't identify with them, often they are undesirable too, so I don't even want to "hear" them. I go and ignore them then. And if they get strong enough that I'm forced to pay attention is when I do have trouble with keeping distance from all of it lol.

That's where it feels like it would be a real advanced skill to just observe and not feel pressure to give in or fight this pressure from the emotions and the linked emotional thoughts.

Mmm I'm not actually that verbal inside my head most of the time. Would sound too draining. But I get the idea, I think.

I see that the idea is that naturally the flow of the emotions and/or thoughts would change on its own?

Sometimes that can happen, sure. It's like, those thoughts are just a few clouds fleeting across an otherwise clear sky. Not really very emotional, or emotionally charged in any way that I can notice. Or sometimes a little emotional but that's okay, I know that those are fleeting so I don't concern myself with them much.

With those strong emotions&emotionally charged thoughts though, it's all too "sticky" for that.

Oh well I know these are intended as just examples, but I want to say that how it really goes like for me is "I should try to feel the emotions as long as I can". The "eventually feel drained of its energy" isn't a "should" pressure like that, that's just something that naturally happens for most of my emotions, so it's just an observation. I think I want to observe that pressure though, and similar pressures about what I should be doing with my feelings lol.

A question too: With this whole mindful observation, is the idea that I accept things and that's already helpful, or is it that I learn more about what's going on and then I can work on things going from that? To feel better overall and have (or regain) better functioning psychologically.

I want to post an update....I've tried to practice this stuff, really going through the very strong negative emotions while keeping my prefrontal cortex online too and just believing that their extremely strongly negative "messages" aren't about the current situation. This seems like a prerequisite for me to be able to do all this, to go through the negative emotions rather than flinch away from them.

Like, I've ended up seeing some negative core belief that formed after some bad experiences a few years back, while believing and trusting my own judgment that these negative emotions and such core beliefs are not about the actual reality here and now. Or more like, I ended up seeing the opposite of it (positive and realistic core belief) and then I was able to take the negative emotions.

I don't know how much of it's actually mindfulness. I didn't end up suspending my default judgment and emotional control, I actively utilise those. Utilising those ensures I have enough distance even while the emotions are intense. I've stopped trying to just feel things like I was told to feel before, and so I'm okay with keeping "cold judgment" and emotional control instead, yet not trying to ignore or dismiss the emotional stuff for now.

What it really feels like, it feels like a kind of exposure therapy. Since I stopped avoiding some of it and I try to go through it all rather than ignore or dismiss immediately. The bodily sensations can be extreme too, it literally hurting here and there, but I'm able to deal with that too now after much observation on how they are not dangerous (hopefully). I do all this while trying to focus on work or other tasks, because the way I am, being passive doesn't ensure enough arousal to have the emotions coming out like this.

Since it's so extreme, for now I do have to add little breaks. I hope the intensity will decrease. These are 10/9-9.5 or even 10/10 intensity for a short time.

Does anyone else have luck with doing all this this way?

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Where I still have misgivings is, but it seems like I'm forced to do this anyway, the emotions are already there anyway, no running from them, right? But I want to be sure I'm not just stuck in the past by letting myself go through them, either. Don't want my brain to get used to feeling negative, either, like strengthening neural connections for that, or whatever.

And I do not want to lose myself again like I did before when trying to feel too much. For me it's just not natural to just simply be totally inside the feeling or emotion. I think it's probably true that I have to deal with these negative emotions by breaking them down analytically keeping that prefrontal cortex online.

Like, that's the way for me to go through them. Otherwise it just seems to come back right away and I don't feel I actually went through it properly.

I think that's most decidedly not mindfulness and not even exposure therapy for that part. It's probably most similar to CBT if I'd want to call it a therapy approach. Though probably not the exact same as CBT

But yeah I mean, with mindfulness my biggest misgiving was always that, okay, I somehow endured and survived the bad emotion, and then what? It will come back if I don't solve the situation where it's coming from. No??