[pachyderm]

Here is a problem that I am working on (and having a fair amount of trouble with):

When my T wants (as he does) to stop me talking about some things (let's say expressing the "wrong" things), how is he different, and how is he the same, as my mother?

How does my T's (and it's not just his) need to control things manifest itself? By talking, instead of listening. Commenting on what I have to say. Objecting that there is some better way of my coping. Instead of listening to what I am saying or doing, trying to get me to do what I should be saying or doing.

All therapists that I know of want to "correct" their patients, want to make them "well". I know none who are willing to let their patients be "wrong" -- even temporarily. (And I am talking about being really wrong!) How many are willing to deal with their patients or clients without wanting to "change" them? After all, isn't that what therapists are supposed to do, "change" their clients?

Isn't that what much of the impulse to medicate comes from: it is, of course, only for the good of the patient. Isn't it? After all, all we are trying to do is "help", isn't it?

So, it seems to me that the impulse to "correct" or "control" is the same in my T (and, I think, in many, if not almost all) as with my mother. How are they different? I have a hard, hard time figuring this. Maybe it was just that my mother's need to control led to a more, shall we say, "active" form of control than my therapist's? Maybe my T will not try to control things to the same extent as my dear mother did.

How can I be sure, if the impulse is there?

In spite of what I imagine many of you responding, I don't think this is a problem confined to my particular T.

[sittingatwatersedge]

You ask such a general question.

For one thing it occurs that one's mother is one's mother; on the other hand, people get into therapy because they *know* they are going wrong somewhere. is that what you thought woudl be said?

I am one "client" who constantly gallops off in the wrong direction. Lesseee... do you see these as controlling?

SAWE: There is no such thing as UPR outside of this room, except for one's mother if she is capable, or you could get a dog.
T: you really don't believe that do you? I think that's very sad.

SAWE: I really want to make the most of [therapy], to get it right and not blow it.
T (in a sort of warning tone): are you looking for my approval?
SAWE: Not exactly. But considering what you know, I guess I wouldn't mind having your approval.

[sunrise]

I feel lucky because I haven't really had to deal with issues of my current T correcting me or trying to control me, but I did have an instance with my first T when she pointed out what she felt was my incorrect thinking. I remember she told me I was catastrophizing, and I chose to believe her and do this thing (outside of therapy) that I thought would have awful consequences but according to her, would not (it was just my incorrect thinking making me think it would). So I trusted her judgment, and I went and did this thing, and unfortunately, my worst fears were true. The outcome was awful and resulted in bigtime hurt and pain for me and were completely unnecessary, if I had just not done this thing. So at my next session, I reported back to her, and she saw that she had been incorrect. I think she learned a bit of a lesson there, and after that, was more likely to trust my judgment, because she saw that in this instance, it had been correct and she had been wrong.

So, pachy, that's my solution--let them make a few mistakes with you and hopefully learn they don't always know what "correct" is. I am not sure how you can apply it to your situation, but maybe you can.

It seems to me like if you are needing to talk about this topic--how your T is like your mother--then you need to. If your T keeps trying to suppress that conversation, you will never get it out on the table and so never be able to leave it behind. He might find you moving forward past this a lot more quickly if he would only listen. Instead, you remain stuck trying to get the guy to listen. Ughh.

After all, isn't that what therapists are supposed to do, "change" their clients?

No, I don't think so. I think change is something that comes from within, not something the therapist does to a client (at least in some therapy orientations). How do you think your therapist would answer if you asked him, "are you trying to change me?"

One time my current T wanted me to do a certain action outside of therapy, and this action was not consistent with who I was or where I was in my thinking at that time. So I told him no, I wasn't going to do that. Why not? Because I didn't believe it and it wasn't true and I wasn't going to fake feeling a certain way just because he suggested I should. But I'm not suggesting you be fake. It seems like you are, because what you are suggesting is "not me" at this moment--maybe I will get there, but I am not there yet. If I do this thing, it would not be speaking the truth. Do you want me to lie just because you think this is a good thing to do? Ummm, well no. End of conversation.

So I just kind of backed him into a corner about authenticity and honesty, etc. I do not do things that are lies for the sake of who knows what. My T championed authenticity to me, and so this is what the result is. I also left open that there might come a time when I was in alignment with what he was thinking, but that time had not yet come. This allows him to save face a bit and realize he is not necessarily suggesting something categorically "wrong" but just something the client is not ready for.

So pachy, my suggestion in this case is to show your T that following his suggestion is actually not aligned with other things you have learned in therapy (and that perhaps he has been promoting). Then you catch him in a bind and maybe he will sit still and listen.

Good luck.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

You ask such a general question.

For one thing it occurs that one's mother is one's mother; on the other hand, people get into therapy because they *know* they are going wrong somewhere. is that what you thought woudl be said?

No.

Lesseee... do you see these as controlling?

SAWE: There is no such thing as UPR outside of this room, except for one's mother if she is capable, or you could get a dog.
T: you really don't believe that do you? I think that's very sad.

I react to the part about "you don't really believe that do you?" as that it is an attempt to control. To reverse or deny what the person (SAWE) has just said. Maybe you don't see it as a dangerous attempt to control, but I often do. It is the kind of thing my mother would say: if she asked us what we wanted and we gave her an answer that she did not like, she would tell us that we did not want what we had just said we wanted.

This in itself is not necessarily threatening. Maybe you can understand where I am "coming from" if I tell you that at times she would tell us that she would "break" us, or "break our spirits" -- and that I felt as a child -- and well into adulthood -- that she had succeeded. She would "show us no mercy" -- things like that, accompanied by "considerable" physical force and an ability to act outside of the family, when others were present, in such a way as to deny and hide what was happening inside the family. And those outsiders always, as far as I could tell, were deluded by her, or took her side, or did not want to hear about it.

So I tend to react strongly and swiftly to things that, if I were able to react more slowly, I might be able to handle better... But then, in our family, I guess I learned that if you did not react instantly, you were dead.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sunrise

One time my current T wanted me to do a certain action outside of therapy, and this action was not consistent with who I was or where I was in my thinking at that time. So I told him no, I wasn't going to do that.

Saying "no" to my mother was an invitation to an execution. Or so I seem to have believed.

When I was in my first therapy (not the present one) I once got up the ability to say "no" to someone in a very controlled and calm way, and got condemned by my therapist at the time for doing so. He assumed I had been the "offender".

So pachy, my suggestion in this case is to show your T that following his suggestion is actually not aligned with other things you have learned in therapy (and that perhaps he has been promoting). Then you catch him in a bind and maybe he will sit still and listen.

Maybe. But only if I am able to stay present and think and explain clearly. Something that is often not the case. And if I am not, how will he react?

[sunrise]

I don't know how he will react, but it sounds like you don't feel safe enough to say "no" or challenge him. I also couldn't say no to my mother without consequences and if I felt that way towards my T, I would not say it to him either. I am sorry you don't have that safe space with your T. Does he know that? Is it important to him? I do remember with my T that some of our early work involved getting to Safe. Is that something the two of you have ever worked on--making therapy "safe" for you?

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sunrise

I am sorry you don't have that safe space with your T. Does he know that? Is it important to him? I do remember with my T that some of our early work involved getting to Safe. Is that something the two of you have ever worked on--making therapy "safe" for you?

Well, if I don't have a safe space in therapy, part of that is me. I don't have a safe space anywhere, really.

You know, those people tell you to "imagine a safe place" and it is always something like a nice sunny day at the beach -- as though physical surroundings are what make places safe or not. I can never imagine a safe place of that kind.

My T frequently tells me it is safe. I feel I don't get to discover if it is or not on my own -- I feel pressured to agree with him that it is safe, even when I do not know if it is or not. I do not trust words; I want to see actions. I want to see somebody doing something that tells me that it is safe, not only with words.

I once had a cat given to me for safekeeping, by a person who was becoming homeless. This cat was very frightened, and it took me months before she slowly began to trust me. Eventually she came to believe that she could even get up on the bed with me and sleep at night. I never tried to force her into anything. I did not tell her "everything is OK". I let her know by my actions so she could decide that it was. Unfortunately I probably betrayed her trust when I gave her back to her original owner; I thought that was a reasonable thing to do (her owner was not an abusive person and had gotten a home) but I suspect that cat never forgave me. I am sorry, cat.

[sunrise]

Ohh, poor kitty. I hope she had a good life.

For me, I do not imagine a safe space (sunny, breezy, rainbow, whatever etc). That is not what my T and I did in therapy. It was about making the space I share with him during therapy to be safe, not imagining some other distant place. To do that, he asked several times (quite early on), "what I can do to make it safe for you here?" And then I would think about what might help me feel safer, and then share those things with him. It didn't happen all at once, but he was very open to guidance from me. And it took some introspection from me on what would make me feel better. He can't know exactly what I need to feel safe, so I need to help him with that. It's a process, not fast. I get the feeling from you, pachy, that your T has never asked you what would make the space safe for you, but just told you what should make it safe for you. Yes, I agree, that is no help at all! It sounds like you have some good ideas about what would make it safe for you (the cat story is telling). You want a space where the therapist shows by his actions that he can be trusted. Somehow I get the feeling you have been through this with your T and not been able to achieve it. I'm sorry.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I react to the part about "you don't really believe that do you?" as that it is an attempt to control. To reverse or deny what the person (SAWE) has just said. Maybe you don't see it as a dangerous attempt to control, but I often do.

I thnk it may be in the reading, Pachy. Not as in "You don't really believe that, do you?!" but more like "[Oh my goodness] you don't really believe that (when I tell you that UPR is everywhere). Do you?"

More of a wondering tone. She didn't proceed to try to persuade me, so no I didn't take it as controlling. And I think I was secretly hoping to be persuaded.

[sittingatwatersedge]

BTW ((((((((((( pachy )))))))))))) I am so sorry about how your Mom would act. I can't change the past either but I so much wish it had all been different.

[Dr.Muffin]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Here is a problem that I am working on (and having a fair amount of trouble with):

When my T wants (as he does) to stop me talking about some things (let's say expressing the "wrong" things), how is he different, and how is he the same, as my mother?

How does my T's (and it's not just his) need to control things manifest itself? By talking, instead of listening. Commenting on what I have to say. Objecting that there is some better way of my coping. Instead of listening to what I am saying or doing, trying to get me to do what I should be saying or doing.

All therapists that I know of want to "correct" their patients, want to make them "well". I know none who are willing to let their patients be "wrong" -- even temporarily. (And I am talking about being really wrong!) How many are willing to deal with their patients or clients without wanting to "change" them? After all, isn't that what therapists are supposed to do, "change" their clients?

Isn't that what much of the impulse to medicate comes from: it is, of course, only for the good of the patient. Isn't it? After all, all we are trying to do is "help", isn't it?

So, it seems to me that the impulse to "correct" or "control" is the same in my T (and, I think, in many, if not almost all) as with my mother. How are they different? I have a hard, hard time figuring this. Maybe it was just that my mother's need to control led to a more, shall we say, "active" form of control than my therapist's? Maybe my T will not try to control things to the same extent as my dear mother did.

How can I be sure, if the impulse is there?

In spite of what I imagine many of you responding, I don't think this is a problem confined to my particular T.

i feel like this may be a function of the type of therapy you are receiving, but i could be way off. some forms of therapy involve you talking things out and leading the therapist down the paths you travel and then (hopefully) you and the therapist working together can get you on the "right path" - whatever that is for you. other forms involve confronting you on the "wrong" thoughts and ideas repeatedly, because repetition is a killer way to remember something.

as to the question of how your therapist is different from your mother....who's to say he IS different from your mother? after all, you chose this person to work though issues. and we frequently choose therapists who are similar to one or both of our parents without even knowing that we're doing so. the only differences may be genetic for you.

as for the therapist's need to control. well, the therapist has to control the session. you and the therapist should collaborate to decide treatment goals and issues you wish to work on, but its up to the therapist to maintain the structure. the therapist should have a plan, a flexible plan, but a plan nonetheless. youre going to this person as an expert right? dont you think it might be a waste of your time and money to go in and just ramble on and on and on ad infinitum? i mean, you could do that in a room by yourself! and either way, its likely that nothing would get solved.

so, i guess my question for you is, what do you wish to get from treatment?

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

I thnk it may be in the reading, Pachy.

Yes, the tone and everything surrounding can make all the difference.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by pachy

This in itself is not necessarily threatening. Maybe you can understand where I am "coming from" if I tell you that at times she would tell us that she would "break" us, or "break our spirits" -- and that I felt as a child -- and well into adulthood -- that she had succeeded. She would "show us no mercy" -- things like that, accompanied by "considerable" physical force and an ability to act outside of the family, when others were present, in such a way as to deny and hide what was happening inside the family. And those outsiders always, as far as I could tell, were deluded by her, or took her side, or did not want to hear about it.

So I tend to react strongly and swiftly to things that, if I were able to react more slowly, I might be able to handle better... But then, in our family, I guess I learned that if you did not react instantly, you were dead.

First dear Pachy, Im so sorry you had to go through what you did as a child. You did not deserve such treatment and to be in such a scary situation. My mother was very much the same. You had to react fast and without feeling or you were dead meat. Hiding was the usual thing I did. I ran and hid. She was in control.

I have to say, having (possibly) the same dynamic as you, I also chose a controlling therapist. You know the story with my t, and what she does is steer me clear of the place I NEED to go. I see that now. But, maybe, as Dr Muffin said, your t should be in control so you dont ramble on. But, if it really is the case, as it has been with my t, that she is excessively controlling to the point where it interferes with your work there then it IS a problem. My t has commented on what I am saying to get me to stop saying confrontational things to her and she keeps talking as I am trying to get words out, not listening but instead shaming me for what I am saying so I quickly stop, etc. All of these things can be said to be for the "good" of the patient, but only you know when you are being controlled and when your t may just be trying to get you to see things her way.

As for medication- this is the one good thing my t suggested. I do feel better on lexipro. I never would have weaned my 2 yo to start meds. She encouraged me there and I do feel better. Though sometimes I did feel like she dismissed my /tears as a chemical imbalance.

And anyway, whether it is different from your mother or not I would say isnt really the issue. The issue is really that it FEELS that way. My t feels that way too. There are probably huge differences between my mother and my t's controlling-ness, but with my history, I only see the similarities and the awful way she makes me feel.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

First dear Pachy, Im so sorry you had to go through what you did as a child. You did not deserve such treatment and to be in such a scary situation. My mother was very much the same. You had to react fast and without feeling or you were dead meat. Hiding was the usual thing I did. I ran and hid. She was in control.

Trying to hide was also dangerous in my family. It would enrage my mother if she thought we were trying to run away, since it was obviously some kind of reflection on her or abandonment of her.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Dr.Muffin

so, i guess my question for you is, what do you wish to get from treatment?

I want to grow in a major way towards stability and emotional maturity. Unlike what some among mental health "professionals" have accused me of, wanting to dominate other people, or trick them by presenting with problems that they claim I am using only to deceive. I realize now that those reactions of some are similar to how my mother dealt with us children: she thought that we were in charge, or should be, and should take care of her problems. I think I realized at that time to some extent that she had problems, and that somebody should attend to them -- but nobody did.

[Dr.Muffin]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I want to grow in a major way towards stability and emotional maturity. Unlike what some among mental health "professionals" have accused me of, wanting to dominate other people, or trick them by presenting with problems that they claim I am using only to deceive. I realize now that those reactions of some are similar to how my mother dealt with us children: she thought that we were in charge, or should be, and should take care of her problems. I think I realized at that time to some extent that she had problems, and that somebody should attend to them -- but nobody did.

that seems kind of vague to me....any concrete specific goals?

[SpottedOwl]

(((pachy)))

I've been thinking about your posts. Nothing 'traditional' seems to be the solution, so I'm going to throw out a few ideas I had.

Idea #1:
...what would the world look like if YOU had control. No one was trying to control you. What would you do? How would that feel? If you can, spend some time with the details. It could be something as simple as imagining going to an ice cream store and being able to eat/order whatever you wanted...how would that feel. What flavor would you get...or would you get more than one? Maybe you'd hop over the counter and sample every flavor...let your imagination go with this.

Remind yourself this is a world where no one is going to harm you for making a choice. This exercise MUST be done with full acceptance of whatever you decide will be 'ok'.

Idea #2:
I read once that we only really have one relationship in our lives. That relationship is with ourselves. How we view ourselves is mirrored in the relationships we have in our lives. If we love ourselves, we will likely have many loving relationships. If we don't like ourselves and are judgmental, we will often see that in the external relationships of our lives.

I know you've spent a lot of energy and time on your relationship with your mother, but how much time have you spent on your relationship with you? Do you like yourself? Do you trust yourself to make good decisions?

*If* you subscribe to this idea...it can be quite powerful. Just by changing how you feel about yourself, it can literally change every relationship in your life. As I have been working on my own healing, I can see relationships in my life changing. My family used to be a constant source of stress, but now the conversations have changed and I can speak to them without it negatively impacting my day. I know none of them are doing therapy...so it must be ME that changed, and as a result how they treat me has changed.

Just a couple ideas. If they speak to you, great. If not, feel free to discard. No matter what, please accept my warm wishes for you...whatever you decide to do.

[Dr.Muffin]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Well, if I don't have a safe space in therapy, part of that is me. I don't have a safe space anywhere, really.

You know, those people tell you to "imagine a safe place" and it is always something like a nice sunny day at the beach -- as though physical surroundings are what make places safe or not. I can never imagine a safe place of that kind.

My T frequently tells me it is safe. I feel I don't get to discover if it is or not on my own -- I feel pressured to agree with him that it is safe, even when I do not know if it is or not. I do not trust words; I want to see actions. I want to see somebody doing something that tells me that it is safe, not only with words.

I once had a cat given to me for safekeeping, by a person who was becoming homeless. This cat was very frightened, and it took me months before she slowly began to trust me. Eventually she came to believe that she could even get up on the bed with me and sleep at night. I never tried to force her into anything. I did not tell her "everything is OK". I let her know by my actions so she could decide that it was. Unfortunately I probably betrayed her trust when I gave her back to her original owner; I thought that was a reasonable thing to do (her owner was not an abusive person and had gotten a home) but I suspect that cat never forgave me. I am sorry, cat.

you seem to have a good idea of what you need i think...what would a therapist have to do to help you to feel safe? has yours done any of that? and if not, have you asked for it? i mean, im definitely not one for forcing a relationship with clients, if they just want to talk news sports and weather for the first few sessions then that's what we'll do. im patient. but i would wonder what i needed to do to help them feel safe with me....

the best way to get what you need in therapy is to ask for it. but i suppose asking is a form of being vulnerable as well, and if theres no feeling of safety then....hmmm. catch 22.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by Dr.Muffin

you seem to have a good idea of what you need i think...what would a therapist have to do to help you to feel safe? has yours done any of that? and if not, have you asked for it? i mean, im definitely not one for forcing a relationship with clients, if they just want to talk news sports and weather for the first few sessions then that's what we'll do. im patient. but i would wonder what i needed to do to help them feel safe with me....

the best way to get what you need in therapy is to ask for it. but i suppose asking is a form of being vulnerable as well, and if theres no feeling of safety then....hmmm. catch 22.

What if you dont know what will make you feel safe. I mean, for me, if I knew, Id have gone after that a long time ago........
How can I/you/pachy figure it out?

[Dr.Muffin]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

What if you dont know what will make you feel safe. I mean, for me, if I knew, Id have gone after that a long time ago........
How can I/you/pachy figure it out?

i think a good start is to figure out what makes you feel unsafe...thats usually easier to pin down.

[BlueMoon6]

Dr M- That is something to think about. Flat tire t asked me what works for me and what doesnt. I liked the question.

I guess what makes me feel safe and what doesnt is sort of a similar question.

I know feeling like I am not being heard or believed makes me feel unsafe. Thats a start.

Anyone else have any thoughts on what makes them feel unsafe?

Originally Posted by pachyderm

My T frequently tells me it is safe. I feel I don't get to discover if it is or not on my own -- I feel pressured to agree with him that it is safe, even when I do not know if it is or not. I do not trust words; I want to see actions. I want to see somebody doing something that tells me that it is safe, not only with words.

I SO agree with this! My T told me many times in therapy that I was safe, but as far as I was concerned, I had no reason to believe him. I had to experience it for myself. Now that I've been with him for 2 years, I HAVE experienced it, and I truly KNOW, in a deep way, that I am safe with him.

Have you been with your T long, pachy? do you think it's a time thing...you need more time before you believe you are safe?

Originally Posted by SpottedOwl

Just by changing how you feel about yourself, it can literally change every relationship in your life. As I have been working on my own healing, I can see relationships in my life changing. My family used to be a constant source of stress, but now the conversations have changed and I can speak to them without it negatively impacting my day. I know none of them are doing therapy...so it must be ME that changed, and as a result how they treat me has changed.

Thanks for sharing this, SpottedOwl This has been my experience as well...and I can't even really put my finger on how exactly I have changed...it's been such a slow and steady process. But my relationships are completely different than they were 2 years ago before I started therapy.

I like the idea of the relationship with ourselves being important. I never thought of it that way.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

Anyone else have any thoughts on what makes them feel unsafe?

My T has asked me what he could do to make it feel safe, and to answer that I try to listen to what my gut is saying rather than what my head is saying (which is probably "I don't know!). One time I told him I needed the lights to be dimmer and he was happy to oblige. Other times we have talked about why I could not share something "really bad" with him, and he was very patient in going through all the reasons I felt I could not. He shared information from his experience and training and past, and all this made me feel more secure. Like when I told him I didn't want to share with him because I didn't want to dump this yucky stuff on him, he gave me examples from his past that reassured me he could handle this. Just everything he did made me feel safer, especially his willingness to take the reasons for my hesitancy very seriously and explore them with me. He never laughed at anything I said or made it seem like this was a stupid reason or tried to brush it off with a "don't worry about that." This took time.

[BlueMoon6]

Sunrise- everything in your post was so incredibly helpful to me. You are so amazingly aware of what is going on with yourself and your t.
Thanks for posting it.