Actively choosing to use what I know

My t comes up with the greatest analogies. We laugh about them, but they really make sense to me. He loves to use English analogies with me because I'm an English teacher. (He also loves to give me homework. Payback, he says.).

I understand this so much better now. Thank you, TQ. I was not getting that distinction in what FG posted, so it was preventing me from understanding. I think a lot of my feelings are the kind that need to be felt, rather than the irrational thinking kind. I have those too sometimes, but I am pretty good at dismissing them (which for me is a lot different from stuffing them).

This thread is very interesting! Tay, I would answer to this sadness example that these feelings are based on valid distortions. We get to where we are in a very predictable and understandable way. Things happened to us, we formed reactions and thoughts to these things, and until we recognize them and work through them, they will always be with us. So I would say that instead of looking at it as something that is distorted, I would look at it as something that makes sense considering what we had experienced. It needs to be embraced and worked through in a deep way, not quickly worked through with some superficial CBT.

Wow, I don't have that much control over my feelings. My feelings just come out sometimes and I apoligize if I need to or explain simply but I never feel bad about it (embarrassed). We are human.......... I guess I am in situations that are emotion friendly. If I was in a situation that wasn't emotion friendly I think that I would be able to control my feelings because my need to protect myself would supercede my desire to allow my feelings.

Good point Sunrise. Grief is definitely a situation that doesn't need to be resolved unless its complicated grief and there are issues which are inhibiting the grief process. Good point about using the word resolve. I guess I use the word resolve when my feelings are involved in a situation that needs to be resolved. So maybe it isnt' necessarily the feelings that need to be resolved but the situation? Especially when the feelings are old and you have to untangle them and figure out where they are coming from, then you are resolving too. Interesting point...........

But these distortions don't make sense and aren't valid because they aren't based on reality. We need to learn to hold our distorted thinking to the light and base our thoughts in rational thinking. That isn't superficial at all. And it isn't so much about controlling feelings as it is about controlling thoughts. We have all the control we choose to take over what we think.

They might not be based on the reality of today but they were based on a past reality. These thoughts formed in reaction to a situation that you found yourself in.

Yes, but at what costs to our emotional health?

Yes, hold our thinking to the light but don't leave out our feelings!

They weren't based in reality in the past either. They were distortions even then. If I believed nobody loved me because I was abused, that wasn't based in reality. It's likely that other people loved me but I had generalized it to everyone. If I believed that what was happening was my fault, surely you wouldn't say that was based in reality. That was a distortion of thought.

Working in reality is no cost to emotional health. Why would it be? Is it somehow better to live with our distortions and the pain that they cause rather than look for the truth and be healed?

THe reality of the past was the abuse and if you put 1000 kids in that situation they all come out with the same thoughts. These thoughts aren't distorted. If someone beats me I must be useless. This is a rational conclusion for a child. As we grow older and can look at it in therapy we can see that they beat because they were messed up. But as an adult you have these thoughts which you concluded based on the reality of long ago.

Maybe saying that no one loves you is a stretch but if you want to work on this issue you have to go back to the source. Just working on the "nobody" part is not deep work IMO. If you work on the core issue the "nobody" issue will vanish.

When children feel that it was their fault there are many reasons for this. Two reasons are: 1) children feel that everything that happens is because of what they did for developmental reasons, 2) the abuser told them it was their fault.

I said at what emotional cost because you said that we can control how we think. If our thinking is based on something that we haven't worked through yet and all we are doing is forcing control over our thoughts we will suffer emotionally. We can't force our thoughts, we can only understand where they come from and work with them for change.

I edited my last post several times. Did you see my last edit?

No, I didn't see your last edit until just now. We don't leave out the feelings with CBT. You seem to think cbt has nothing to do with feelings. You call it superficial. That's a misunderstanding on your part. CBT is about the connection between our thoughts and our feelings, so yes, we constantly deal with both. I would say children make irrational conclusions all the time. Just because they are kids doesn't make their thinking rational. That's just the way kids are. It's not an insult to say kids can have irrational thoughts. We AREN"T children anymore. We can look at our old mistaken beliefs and thoughts and work through them now. That is "deep work" as you call it. I have no idea why it wouldn't be.

I do believe as adults we can control what we think. That's not easy work either. That isn't superficial. It isn't a light switch we turn on and off. We have to work at it. With CBT, we DON'T "force our thoughts"; we work through them, and through working through them, we "understand where they come from and work with them for change."

We really aren't on different pages here. I just don't think you have a good understanding of CBT.

Just jumping in about the controllability of thoughts -- CBT doesn't work for everyone because changing thoughts doesn't work for everyone. I have OCD and I CANNOT control certain thoughts at times, even thoughts that might not be related to OCD. I find it very difficult to control my thinking, especially when I try to get my thoughts to go away. But this is seen in research.. thought suppression (i.e., DON'T think of a white bear! Oh wait, I'm thinking about it, crap) has a paradoxical effect. Some people in CBT don't get caught in this loop, but I can't get out of it. So there is this issue with CBT for me.. I'm told, certain thoughts are irrational, stop thinking this way, but then those thoughts end up in a loop.

Trying to change my thoughts by calling them irrational does not make them dissipate for me -- in fact, it puts me in a bad cycle. I have this thought which might be an OCD thought (i.e., a disturbing sexual thought, or the thought that I said or did something inappropriate even though it was not inappropriate) or might be a thought related to something else (i.e., nobody likes me, I will never find love). I say, "No, that thought is irrational, think (insert positive thought) instead!" Then the thought comes back. "Crap, (positive thought!! positive thought!!)" "Crap, the thought is still there! Why won't it go away?? POSITIVE THOUGHT POSITIVE THOUGHT POSITIVE THOUGHT WHY WON'T MY THOUGHTS GO AWAY??? I am going crazy because I can't control my thoughts, wait that is an irrational thought too! Crap my WHOLE HEAD is irrational! I'm an insane person! No I'm not, that's irrational too. See, look, I'm ALWAYS irrational! Aghhhhh!"

You see?

Yeah, I was starting to think that we really are closer in thought than we think we are. No, I'm not against CBT. I used a lot of it to heal. But I see 2 types of CBT going on, a superficial one, which is just "change those thoughts" without looking at what is really going on and a deeper CBT which really goes into looking at where things came from and what they mean.

We are probably looking at the same thing with the children and the thought processes that they go through in response to dysfunction and are really agreeing even though we are using different words. I guess I am looking at a child responding to dysfunction as normal responding on their part so this is why I don't want to call it irrational. They are responding normally to a dysfunctional situation. I guess I feel this distinction is important because it helps to see ourselves in a favorable light and to work with ourselves instead of against ourselves. If we say that we are irrational it sort of discredits us for surviving a terrible situation.

I wanted to add one more to this: 3) it makes intuitive sense. If you beat something you must hate it. If you loved it, you would be nice.

Of course this is face value and not deep thinking on this but when you are in the situation it is a valid conclusion.

That's why I said calling their thoughts irrational is not an insult of any kind. Just an observation, a fact. No judgement there.

I do agree that with CBT, you really have to be sure you have a good therapist, not someone who just wants you to fill out a bunch of worksheets and move on. I'd say if that's the kind of CBT therapist you run into, keep looking. But I think with any therapist, you have to be careful for all sorts of things. Just the nature of the beast.

Jexa-- I can sooooo relate!
I feel your frustration and pain.... I do.... I do....

just being told it's irrational does nothing for me-- in fact like you-- it makes the "spiral" even lower and faster..... ugh.......
I had a T. that said that to me once-- "your thinking is irrational".... argh!! it just caused me to be more upset and chased me away from help for 5 additional years. argh!.....

I've been working extremely hard and intensely now, on putting such thoughts and feelings with past(childhood) traumas/upsets.... and though I"ve only gotten maybe 20% of my "trigger" thinking to heal-- at least FINALLY there is some relief....... finally..... (was so tired of it all, 2 years ago-- I truly thought the only way away from all this turmoil in my head was to end it all, I couldn't see/achieve any relief)

I guess depending on how ones mind works and the kind of trauma and the age the trauma occured perhaps even the family genetics of mental wellness-- all depends on what kind of therapy works for you.

farmergirl-- I think it's wonderful that just straight CBT works so well for you.
The T. I see does two kinds with me-- we look at my past, since I have no grasp(usually) on why I have such knee jerk reactions to some things.... and then she helps me to realize the thoughts that I've dissected are what's causing the dysfunction..... but I know I need the dissecting of the thoughts/feelings first or else those thoughts will just keep coming back and back and back...... ....feels like being caught in a tornado with no power and such anxiety-- being thrown around in my head and unable to hold on to something on my own- to get control..... I think if one has never/or doesnt experience this then they are further along on the healing path....(IMO) and are quite fortunate to not be so-- stuck in the muck....

with respect to all

fins

I can definitely see where the OCD thing could be a problem. Good luck to you.

I just wanted to add something..

Being told that my thoughts are changeable at all is invalidating to me. It's just telling me I haven't been trying hard enough, when the problem is that I try TOO hard and that's what gets me into trouble. My old T who did CBT tried to work through thoughts with me in a deeper way than just "change these thoughts".. but it didn't change the fact that I always took thought restructuring too far. It's like I was trying to climb a mountain to sit at the top.. but instead I couldn't stop the momentum and ended up tumbling down the other side. Every time.

And then, when I failed, the answers in CBT were, "You just weren't trying hard enough, you failed to change your thinking, it's YOUR fault." SO depressing.

That sounds pretty much like what my t does. I can totally relate. I get stuck in the same muck.

I have a CBT test! If you feel you have to force yourself to change those thoughts, something ain't right! Correct CBT brings natural changes in the thoughts once the lightbulb goes off. I am really, really against any kind of force. Actually, I would never tell anyone to change their thoughts. I would start to help them discover why they have them and what they mean.

I still think that it is negative. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You call it a fact or observation. I feel my explanation is an argument for a certain explanation after an observation. I don't feel that either can be called facts.

Ahh, Jexa, that sounds tough! I don't think that you didn't try hard enough. I think that you didn't get the right help to help you figure out what is going on. I see it more as a reflection on the therapist..........

Jexa, so sorry your experience was so stressful. Have you found a therapist who uses techniques that help YOU? That's all that matters. Good luck.

this is what I've experienced---I never would have imagined it would be such a relief! and it's so cool when the lightbulb goes on!
my blood pressure has even been more stable now(it used to be way low and I'd be dizzy a lot of the time... still a bit underweight, but I"m getting there)
I can't believe how therapy can even help your physical health!
heck the insurance companies should be paying the client to go!!

Fins, I have resolved things to the point that once the feelings were released that I didn't have a memory for the issue anymore! It's like I have to really think to remember all the details about it. It really vanished into thin air........ And it really is working with your system and not against it. Or telling yourself bad messages about yourself.

I did actually.. My current T does Acceptance and Commitment Therapy which is working really well for me. I guess I got on my anti-CBT soap box because I want to study ACT in grad school and promote it as a therapeutic style, since it seems to work very well (but needs to be researched further) and focuses on behavioral change, values, and mindfulness, without trying to change thoughts directly.

People in the ACT camp are often there because they have issues with CBT similar to the ones I have, and they are trying to show that ACT might even work better than CBT (so far it has been shown to work for very difficult to treat populations, such as schizophrenia, BPD, etc). CBT works very well for many people, but not for everyone, and other available approaches usually are more long-term when people don't always have the money for long-term therapy. ACT can be short- or long-term and can be adapted for any issue and helps in self-actualization without a specific focus on symptom reduction (but symptom reduction comes as a byproduct, and that is the point). Very "positive psychology."

I really love ACT and I spread the word about ACT like it's the gospel. If anyone is interested, PM me and I will be very happy to explain more about it.

Another reason why therapists need to have many skills and approaches in their toolbox. If one technique isn't working, another must be tried in order to meet the needs of the client.........

Generally in CBT/DBT, no one TELLS you that your thoughts are irrational or FORCES you to change your thinking. You learn to recognize the distortions and irrational thoughts yourself and you decide what to do about them. CBT is not supposed to invalidate feelings.

If I am thinking thoughts, like i am unloveable because my mother abandoned me when I was little, how does it help me to feel those sad feelings that follow? How does talking in therapy about how unloveable I am help? It's not true that I am unloveble and that thought causes lots of other problems when I allow myself to keep thinking that. My therapist would rather me talk about the abandonment and how I feel about that, NOT the feeling caused by the thought that i am unlovebale. Often. we don't even recognize that we have these thoughts and just feel the feelings. cBT therapist will help you learn to recognize the thoughts that cause the feelings in the moment, and you learn to change how you feel. It's so much easier to deal with reality and then process the sadness of the losses that often start the secondary negative thinking.